To Aru Majutsu no Index Light Novel Discussion (Archives)

[Suzuku]

Originally Posted by Flere821

I'll agree that power charts are practically useless unless it's one done by the authors. Though, Michael is literally 'The one that sits in God's Right Seat', and is named in canon as treated as God's equal in some senses (see Vol14 intermissions when Ludvia talks with Stiyl).

This is interesting. I think that Kamachi is prescribing to the Jehova's Witnesses' beliefs that the Archangel Michael is actually Jesus and that God sent Michael down to Earth in human form to live a life without sin and set an example for humans. It would make sense because Jesus is the one who is supposed to sit at God's Right Hand and is considered an extension of God and therefore it's "equal" in a sense, along with "God the Holy Ghost" which resides in all humans (going from Christian doctrine). "God the Holy Ghost" could be seen as the equivalent of Crowley's theory of each human having their own personal "guardian angel" even though they may never interact with it themselves. If that is the case Aiwass, if it is really Crowly's guardian angel, could be an example of "God the Holy Ghost". I wonder if this will have some impact on the plot of Index?

[Chaos2Frozen]

I think there's a misunderstanding, Michael seats on the right side of the Throne, not the right hand.

Another thing, it was the Archangel Gabriel that possessed Sasha, but due to the mixed up in Angel Fall's identity, Gabriel gets bump to Michael's position on the right side, the element of fire, and even his name.

This is my person opinion, but believe that the different ranks of angels exist, but just for simplicity, they're kept at 'angels' and 'archangels'.

[Miraluka]

I think Aiwass didn't went to Russia on his own because he knew beforehand that Gabriel was going to summoned but incomplete.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Wilfriback

I think Aiwass didn't went to Russia on his own because he knew beforehand that Gabriel was going to summoned but incomplete.

Or it could be the other way, instead of seeing Gabriel as a threat, he could view this as a chance. Both Accelerator and Kazakiri were sent by Aiwass, ended up fighting Gabriel, and perhaps level up in the process of fighting something more powerful than themselves and at the same time maybe learn something about how Angels work to increase the use of their own powers...

[tsunade666]

For what purpose Aiwass wants to send Accelerator or Kazakiri to Russia. I can only tell his enjoying this show in the sidelines and like to mess things up. Maybe he already know that gabriel will be summoned and that's more the reason to send those two. It's a lot more interesting to see an angel to be beaten. And with it. The story would further unfold.

[Miraluka]

I wouldn't be surprised if Aiwass ends interested in Index there was some hints in the vol.20 when was talking with Hyouka.

[shmaster]

Just too clarify, the term "Arch Angel" outside being the name of the second lowest hierarchy of angels, it can also be a term to describe any angels that holds a significant post.

Also, a single angel can occupy multiple hierarchies base on its post. As their hierarchies are divided according to the angel's duty, and it is natural for those holds multiple duty to occupy multiple ranks.

[Ice Block]

Originally Posted by oldmanpoo

I don't think not assuming Aiwass as the "top of the list" is as "wild a claim" as you suggest.

It is a wild claim precisely because there is no in-universe evidence to support it. Aiwass is at the top of the chart because it has semi-omnipotence (semi-omniscient, semi-omnipresent). It knows about Index, it knows about Angel Fall and Fiamma's plan (to the point where it sends Kazakiri against Gabriel instead, claiming it wouldn't be 'fun' if it would just do it itself -- this is where the quote "Aiwass is far above conventional Angels, including Archangels" comes from), and it even knows about Crowley's web of plans. This is further supported by the phrase "DRAGON is everywhere".

Oh, and yes, apparently, Fiamma is now stronger than 100% Gabriel, thanks to his latest power-up. As I understand it, he only needs one more ingredient, the Imagine Breaker, in order to achieve the goal of GRS: La Persona superior a Dio. Keep up with the times.

Originally Posted by oldmanpoo

I find it difficult to believe that the 2ch boards are "all knowing" (better perhaps than some of us, though we have members here who speak Japanese I believe) when compared to the knowledge we've gathered here,

I also find it difficult to believe that the claims of someone who can't read Japanese or Chinese, hasn't fully read the summaries, and isn't even up to date with the latest novels should be considered 'more legitimate' than the collective opinion of [probably] more than a hundred JP veterans who have been following the novels, manga, anime, and extras (radio drama, etc) from the very beginning. No, I am not claiming that 2ch is "all knowing", only that they are more trustworthy because they have direct access to the source, unlike your average summary reader (all but ~8 of the people following this thread) who is extremely vulnerable to slight mistranslations and exaggerations (e.g. 'Accelerator splitting Russia in half').

Originally Posted by oldmanpoo

Like I've said, I'm open to conclusive evidence, but not assumptions.

And then you go on to assume that the Christian God is the most powerful, and imply that Christian angels and archangels should be more powerful than their analogues in different religions (because they serve a lesser god or whatnot). Right. Anyway, let's turn this around. Do you have any in-universe evidence that suggests any character among the ones introduced up to the most recent volume to be more powerful than Aiwass?

[oldmanpoo]

Originally Posted by Ice Block

It is a wild claim precisely because there is no in-universe evidence to support it. Aiwass is at the top of the chart because it has semi-omnipotence (semi-omniscient, semi-omnipresent). It knows about Index, it knows about Angel Fall and Fiamma's plan (to the point where it sends Kazakiri against Gabriel instead, claiming it wouldn't be 'fun' if it would just do it itself

It seems to me that there is just as little evidence to support Aiwass' indisputable position at the top. You can quote all you want about her abilities or direct statements, but at what point does it ever pass the realm of speculation in terms of her actual combat capacity (except in one important instance I list a bit later, excluding her confrontation with Accelerator)? What part of "Gabriel was far from full strength during the Russian conflict" doesn't seem to sink in? I'm sure an "omniscient" Aiwass would have been aware of this and not wanted to bother with the conflict. Perhaps she sent Kazakiri and Accelerator (as mentioned by a previous poster) with some ulterior motive in mind (especially considering Aiwass probably knew other important memebers would get involved in the conflict as well). Or maybe she wanted to watch a band of weaker opponents work together to fight off an Angel for "fun" as Aiwass would put it. Or, just as likely, perhaps she realized that a direct confrontation between herself and a Christian Angel would have led to consequences that would have interfered with Aiwass' objectives, regardless of who would have won. Perhaps Aiwass didn't want to enter into open conflict with Heaven or openly reveal her presence on earth in such a large-scale manner? Countless interpretations can be conjured up. That direct quote from Aiwass does next to nothing to justify the wiki statement placing her "far above Archangels".

I'm curious if that statement by Aiwass you quoted is genuinely the reason behind the person who decided to add that line into the Index wiki stating "she is far above conventional Angels, including Archangels." Because if so, the evidence was even weaker than I originally suspected. I thought it had more to do with a translation error stating that Aiwass is like an Angel, but something beyond that, indicating she is a different breed of "Angel," then someone took that and incorrectly ran with the idea that she is far above even Archangels (which doesn't even make sense with the lack of information we have on Aiwass). Statements proclaiming Aiwass as being far above conventional Angels do not exist at Wikipedia.org, which is quite a massive repository of Index information (and Railgun information, for that matter). In fact, I've only seen that claim (Aiwass' superiority over Archangels) one time, with literally little to no supporting evidence or context surrounding it. I'm open to being provided real quotes from the novels not based on questionable interpretations; then I'll gladly accept it as fact and this tired debate I originally didn't care about can end.

Spoiler for Aiwass Wiki:

"Aiwass's powers cannot be described nor comprehended"

There you have it. Taken from Aiwass' profile on the Index wiki. Wonderfully descriptive analysis of Aiwass' powers, am I right? I feel so enlightened now. Unless you speak Japanese and can provide me with something more than a few quotes that indicate that "Aiwass is powerful," please stop requiring me to utilize a constantly changing 2ch power chart as a reference for the Index power-hierarchy. I've already recognized Aiwass as being one of the top contenders. What are you looking for exactly?

The only statement I've read so far indicating her power (aside from her confrontation with Accelerator) was the one stating she could "destroy the world with her fingertip". I heard this was stated in vol. 20, but I can't seem to find it (or there may be no translation yet). Is there anyone here who can confirm this?

Regardless, Angels can also perform such acts and more.

Spoiler for Index/Wikipedia:

"Angels are immensely powerful beings and have been referred to as the most volatile existences in the Toaru Majutsu no Index series. Archangel Gabriel has been shown to possess the ability to manipulate any celestial body through the use of "Astral in Hand", allowing it to immediately block the sun by speeding up Earth's rotation. Fuze Kazakiri, an existence that is considered considerably less powerful than an a Christian Archangel, has displayed the ability to fire beams of energy that can reach several kilometers in length and project an AIM barrier that protects all those around her. She has also shown that she is capable of flight, traveling from Japan to Russia at supersonic speeds in volume 20 of the light novels, and manifest a powerful energy sword."

And this, I believe, was a gimped Gabriel. Archangel Michael doesn't even enter into this equation. We can even leave Seraphim out of this, since they may not even play a role at all. Of course, the statement on the Index wiki indicating that even simple conventional Christian Angels are capable of laying waste to the earth with the utmost ease might be of some importance too, even if it is listed alongside the possibly (a very stressed "possibly") misinterpreted claim that Aiwass is above conventional Angels AND Archangels.

As to your quote at the top of this post, what do "semi-omnipotent", "semi-omniscient", and "semi-omnipresent" even mean? How much more vague can such statements be? She can be in a few different places at once perhaps? Or she has telepathic abilities that allow her to read into events not directly associated with her surroundings? She's "semi-omniscient" because she knows a few details, such as Angel Fall? Perhaps she's aware of such things because she herself is very similar to Angels. Perhaps she's dealt with conventional Angels before. Knowledge does not equate to omniscience. Such abilities do not warrant "top spot" honors (though again, I'm not suggesting she doesn't deserve it either; please keep this in mind this time). According to that logic, the Angels in the wiki quote above could easily fit the "semi" levels of those terminologies as well, since I'm sure the Angels responsible for watching over the earth would have to have some form of minor omniscience to do their jobs (as is their God-given duty), and unless the author states otherwise, I see no reason why that shouldn't be the case since these Angels were directly inspired from the Bible (albeit with a few liberties taken here and there). And they possess some degree of "semi-omnipresence" because they can be summoned out of nowhere while keeping their cores stored away elsewhere. But as I said, "semi" doesn't really make sense. You can't "half" be everywhere at once. I don't think. Or maybe you can. Regardless, as for omnipotence, you're either omnipotent or not. Please elaborate on what "semi-omnipotence" would even encompasses. Because by that definition, many powerful beings in the Index universe could fit that misleading term.

-- this is where the quote "Aiwass is far above conventional Angels, including Archangels" comes from), and it even knows about Crowley's web of plans. This is further supported by the phrase "DRAGON is everywhere".

Assuming this was taken directly from the Index wiki (not Wikipedia, which makes no such claims), you may as well reread what I posted above about the "her being above Angels" quote. As for the "DRAGON" bit, the ability to have a grasp on situations taking place in many different places is far from omnipresent. The ability to manifest in several different places is also vastly different than omnipresence. And I believe the statement "far above Archangels" was already stated to have been a case of a possibility of a misunderstood translation. I don't feel like digging up the post again, but I believe it was something along the lines of "she is like Christian Angels, but something beyond that," which is definitely not the same statement.

And yes, I do keep asking for corrections. Correct corrections. Correct translations. Missing details that would clarify things greatly and "keep me up with the times".

Oh, and yes, apparently, Fiamma is now stronger than 100% Gabriel, thanks to his latest power-up. As I understand it, he only needs one more ingredient, the Imagine Breaker, in order to achieve the goal of GRS: La Persona superior a Dio. Keep up with the times.

Perhaps you should keep up with reading comprehension. Just a suggestion. I feel like I'm repeating myself here. Let's try this again, ok?

Spoiler for Fiamma/Wiki:

"According to him [Fiamma], he holds the symbol of miracles, "The Holy Right," which has the power of the archangel Michael, but he cannot use its full potential as of yet. When his power is used, a mirage- and bird-like claw appears from behind him, which is his main form of attack. However, he has revealed he can now use any symbolism magic that has anything to do with the Right Hand, such as how archangel Michael slayed Lucifer with his right hand, the Son of God heals with his right hand, and one need to record bibles with their right hand, plus many others. Touma likened Fiamma’s power to having "One-hit KO" in an RPG alongside the other options like "Fight," "items" and "magic," thinking that it’s really unfair. With his Holy Right, he has shown he can do the following:

* The strike that ends everything it touches: this attack destroys everything it touches without any destructive force.
* The strike that reaches everything when swung: this attack delivers itself right next to its target without any speed, thus allowing him to move anywhere at will.
* He can produce a 30-40 km-sized sword made of flame. "

- taken from the Index wiki.

Considering Lucifer is, oh I don't know, one of or the strongest angel(s) in Biblical scripture, this places Michael pretty high on the list.

Now, logically speaking, can you put two and two together please? Fiamma is gaining a massive amount of his power from utilizing an INCOMPLETE version of the power of Michael's right arm or the magic symbolizing it (whichever description best fits). Despite this, he is still placed near Aiwass on the chart you value so highly. Now, extrapolating from this, Gabriel is also an Archangel like Michael. And there's one other detail you did not mention. Gabriel was NOT at full power in the fight in Russia (which I'm sure is common knowledge now). Not only this, but you left out the part where I actually never mentioned Gabriel was "stronger" than Aiwass, but simply deduced that from the logic of your "revered" chart, the fact Gabriel was nerfed in the fight, and the fact that Fiamma cannot use the Archangel Michael's full power yet (or can he?) and is still placed near Aiwass, I merely mentioned Gabriel as a "contender" in an open conflict. Understand now?

But, just out of curiosity (not that I deny it or anything) was it stated directly anywhere that Fiamma has surpassed a 100% Gabriel (have we even seen a 100% Gabriel yet?), or was this simply the expected natural conclusion drawn from the fact that he's utilizing powers from Michael?

I also find it difficult to believe that the claims of someone who can't read Japanese or Chinese, hasn't fully read the summaries, and isn't even up to date with the latest novels should be considered 'more legitimate' than the collective opinion of [probably] more than a hundred JP veterans who have been following the novels, manga, anime, and extras (radio drama, etc) from the very beginning. No, I am not claiming that 2ch is "all knowing", only that they are more trustworthy because they have direct access to the source, unlike your average summary reader (all but ~8 of the people following this thread) who is extremely vulnerable to slight mistranslations and exaggerations (e.g. 'Accelerator splitting Russia in half').

Wow. Reading comprehension much? When did I ever claim I knew more about the Index novels than those on 2ch? And I sure as hell didn't profess my OPINIONS as "fact". And who's making assumptions now? I've been reading what I can on the novels, and I still have yet to see the evidence you claim "so clearly" places Aiwass at the top. Like I mentioned, Aiwass just appeared in vol. 19, and since has practically done nothing of significance. I'm sure she has a plot in mind, but just how much more information do you think 2ch could possibly have than us, especially considering we do in fact have Japanese speaking/reading members in the community. Remember, according to your blind faith in the 2ch chart that places Fiamma and Aiwass on the same tier, where do you think much or most of Fiamma's power is coming from exactly? Archangel Michael (see the above Fiamma wiki quote which I'm sure you must be familiar with). Do you know who else is an Archangel? I'll give you one guess. And just how much weaker do you suppose this Archangel would be compared to Michael? I wouldn't imagine the difference as massive (assuming we are talking about Gabriel at absolute full strength).

And then you go on to assume that the Christian God is the most powerful, and imply that Christian Angels and Archangels should be more powerful than their analogues in different religions (because they serve a lesser god or whatnot). Right. Anyway, let's turn this around. Do you have any in-universe evidence that suggests any character among the ones introduced up to the most recent volume to be more powerful than Aiwass?

I must say, for one accusing me of assumptions, never once did I proclaim definitively that Christian Angels or Aiwass were in any way superior to each other. I simply used your own faulty, blind faith in the 2ch chart to show the error in your logic that Fiamma, who is not even utilizing the Archangel Michael's full power yet, is placed next to Aiwass. Why shouldn't I draw the conclusion then that Michael surpasses Aiwass? But even then, I stated I did not know and that the power balance could shift either way. Please re-read what I posted. The only statement you accused me of making that is true is that yes, I place the Christian God at the top of the pantheon (not necessarily God's Angels as compared to other deities and Angels, but just GOD; please pay attention). If the Index author is using canonical Christianity, at least to some extent, then you cannot simply ignore the most likely conclusion that the Christian God fits all the traits He has in the Bible, which is true omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence. The author may change this, and that's fine. But until then, I think I have more evidence to back my claim than your supposed distaste for my support of the Christian/magic side of the Index power struggle (though I sincerely believe this struggle between "science"/"religion" will balance out evenly in the end anyway as I stated CLEARLY if you had paid just a bit more attention to my previous posts).

I feel further continuation in this debate would just put us in circles until some clear-cut confrontation is displayed for us to witness the abilities between Aiwass and the Angels (which I doubt may happen).

In summation for this wall of text, I don't clearly view Aiwass or any of the Angels as being superior to one another. You made that assumption on your own. I simply questioned the logic behind the reasoning you used based on your quotes and the chart.

One final quote:

Spoiler for Index Wiki:

Aleister replied though Aiwass jokes his plans are coming apart, she won’t hold her position of superiority forever – and Aiwass says it matters not either way, since she never asked for this power. She then fades away and leaves the message she’ll appear again when things become interesting once more.

I don't know. Seems to indicate a lack of "omnipresence", "omnipotence", and "omniscience" to me. In fact, it seems to indicate she originally didn't even have that power in the first place, but earned it. Speculation on my part, though, so take it with a grain of salt.

Honestly, I never thought considering Aiwass and Archangels to be on roughly equal footing to be such a massive stretch, but you seem hell-bent on protecting a constantly changing 2ch power chart with characters who constantly change positions, and others whose positions aren't even known.

[Flere821]

The part where it said Aiwass can destroy the world with only one of its fingertips is in Vol20 epilogue (or called 'Battle Report'), mentioned in passing when Aiwass talked with Kazakiri.

Also, about the phrase 'DRAGON is everywhere', that's in terms of Academy City only, as it's covered in the AIM field, and this quote is from one of Academy City's directors (ref: Vol19), so Aiwass isn't omnipresent for sure.

Here's a summary about the latest part of chinese translations of Vol21, Ch7 pt3:

- Elizerina and Accelerator saw Misha/Gabriel being summoned, and the narrative described the situation as bad as a asteroid smashing down onto earth, or another ice age being caused by this event.
- The Kremlin Report contains information about Heaven and Angels not in Index's 103,000 grimoires, and is the key to complete the Star of Bethlehem and bridge the gap between Fiamma and Index's knowledge. Accelerator is annoyed that Touma is so much ahead of him in dealing with the dark side of the world, knowing/involved in magic incidents that could influence the world when Accelerator was only settling events on just one side/city of the world.
- Elizerina told Accelerator to run before Fiamma and Russia catches up to them, and leave the Kremlin report behind if he want a chance to get away. Accelerator told her not a chance, this is finally a opportunity to solve every problem he has. Misaka Worst is trying to get her hands on a AK rifle. Worst came out of Last Order's room, predicting what Accelerator is going to do: Keep both LO and the lambskin with him, escape Elizerina's borders and delibrately let Russia find him and chase after him, to not involve innocent citizens. Accelerator's embarassed that his plan was found out by Worst so easily, not used to doing 'good deeds' and saying it in front of others.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Why would the Kremlin Report hold information about Heaven's Angels? The Report was suppose to be Russia's protocol in the event that their nuclear silos were taken over by the enemy.

Also, I wouldn't take what Aiwass said literally, remember that the Book of Law which probably summoned Aiwass was also said to end the world of Christianity when opened.

[Flere821]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Why would the Kremlin Report hold information about Heaven's Angels? The Report was suppose to be Russia's protocol in the event that their nuclear silos were taken over by the enemy.

Also, I wouldn't take what Aiwass said literally, remember that the Book of Law which probably summoned Aiwass was also said to end the world of Christianity when opened.

Russian modern military have protocols written on lambskin? I've read in the chinese translations of the vol20 the Krelin report is like a last resort for Russia's Military and the Orthodox Church, but nothing about it being connected to nuclear weapons.

And about how Aiwass have the power to destroy the world with only 1 fingertip, that's mentioned in the narration, not a statement by Aiwass.

[shmaster]

The Goat Skin document and the Kremlin Report is two separate thing.

[tsunade666]

I thought that the kremlin report is connected to nuke tech and goat skin is the one with angel knowledge. And accelerator already had it from vol 20.... or is it vol 19..... maybe not it's from vol 20.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Flere821

Russian modern military have protocols written on lambskin? I've read in the chinese translations of the vol20 the Krelin report is like a last resort for Russia's Military and the Orthodox Church, but nothing about it being connected to nuclear weapons.

Not the same thing.

There are two documents, one is the Kremlin Report, the other is the goatskin document. The Goatskin is probably the one you were referring to about the Angels.

Originally Posted by Flere821

And about how Aiwass have the power to destroy the world with only 1 fingertip, that's mentioned in the narration, not a statement by Aiwass.

Now that I think about it, it's probably no big deal since Gabriel was said to be able to destroy the world with just a whisper in the narration as well.

Meh, the world's too cheap these days.

[pikachuwei]

where to read chinese translations of index novels? (traditional chinese please, i cant read simplified :X)

[Miraluka]

Originally Posted by pikachuwei

where to read chinese translations of index novels? (traditional chinese please, i cant read simplified :X)

Click on "when you see it" below my signature

[oldmanpoo]

Originally Posted by Flere821

The part where it said Aiwass can destroy the world with only one of its fingertips is in Vol20 epilogue (or called 'Battle Report'), mentioned in passing when Aiwass talked with Kazakiri.

Also, about the phrase 'DRAGON is everywhere', that's in terms of Academy City only, as it's covered in the AIM field, and this quote is from one of Academy City's directors (ref: Vol19), so Aiwass isn't omnipresent for sure.

Ah, thanks for that.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Now that I think about it, it's probably no big deal since Gabriel was said to be able to destroy the world with just a whisper in the narration as well.

Meh, the world's too cheap these days.

Wow, I missed that bit as well. Do you remember where it was stated?

Perhaps that's where the line "conventional Angels are capable of laying waste to the world with the utmost ease" came from.

[ZeroForever]

the real question is... how would anyone really know that... if the angels did have the power to lay waste to the earth how would you know...

The entire concept falls under the pit fall of if they ever displayed that power there wouldn't be a humanity left to record the fact. In short is has to be exaggeration otherwise, the display of ability would prevent the recording of the display of the ability by killing everyone that would record.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by oldmanpoo

Wow, I missed that bit as well. Do you remember where it was stated?

Perhaps that's where the line "conventional Angels are capable of laying waste to the world with the utmost ease" came from.

Vol 7, it's more of a thought by Touma as he recalls Misha casting [God's Purge] in vol 4, some of you call it the [Sweep].

Originally Posted by ZeroForever

the real question is... how would anyone really know that... if the angels did have the power to lay waste to the earth how would you know...

The entire concept falls under the pit fall of if they ever displayed that power there wouldn't be a humanity left to record the fact. In short is has to be exaggeration otherwise, the display of ability would prevent the recording of the display of the ability by killing everyone that would record.

Well nobody said they have to do it in an instant. Be it the [Sweep], stopping the Earth's rotation, or moving some celestial bodies, Gabriel has many ways to make our lives miserable. But there were records/stories of her wiping out half the planet (it was really two cities apparently).