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View Poll Results: Who is the ultimate shinobi? | |||
The 1st | 24 | 5.99% | |
The 2nd | 3 | 0.75% | |
Sarutobi | 117 | 29.18% | |
The 4th | 119 | 29.68% | |
Jiraiya | 27 | 6.73% | |
Orochimaru | 10 | 2.49% | |
Tsunde | 4 | 1.00% | |
Itachi | 73 | 18.20% | |
Other...[Please State Who] | 24 | 5.99% | |
Voters: 401. You may not vote on this poll |
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2011-12-15, 20:24 | Link #382 | |
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With Sakumo, I always got the impression that his reputation (before it was dragged through the mud anyway) was right up there near Minato's during the 3rd War, and that his skills should have reflected that. Again, the lack of physical evidence regarding his skills makes this a tough call, though. For Izuna I hadn't given him that much thought, but your logic has some sense to it. Between Naruto (Nine Tailed Cloak) and the Six Paths of Pain, I mostly recall Nagato's claim that Jiraiya would have defeated the Six Paths had he been aware of all their powers from the beginning (whether that's true or not). I'd like to think that, if Jiraiya could win with the right knowledge, Naruto as he currently is should surely be able to do the same. I wouldn't put Naruto above Nagato for sure, but I see no reason to believe Naruto wouldn't be a match for the Six Paths. Using Naruto's current fight alone doesn't really make Naruto weaker, I don't think. |
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2011-12-15, 20:35 | Link #383 |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2011
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That makes sense akashin, I wouldn't put time skip sasuke on a kage level either, but in the few fights tsunade has had, she has been extremely unimpressive. I don't think I would consider her the cliche kage level fighter either. I get what you're saying a out naruto/pain, but I would just like to see more before he tops the all time top 10, same for ems sasuke for that matter. I think nagato was just pointing out the huge flaw in his justu, hell hinata could take him if she knew he was just some cripple hiding in a tower.
And before anymore talk about how the 4th a d 5th mizukage could take sasori you should remember, sasori is the strongest ninja from the sand EVER |
2011-12-15, 20:36 | Link #384 |
Frandle & Nightbag
Join Date: Oct 2009
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The premise of this thread is fundamentally flawed because the terms 'strongest' and 'best' are neither defined nor interchangeable.
'Strongest,' I can safely assume, is supposed to mean 'possessing the most power,' but that's pretty difficult to parse out, as there are different types of power. In the obvious sense, you have combat prowess, but this can be subdivided into taijutsu, genjutsu, ninjutsu, weapon skills, raw chakra levels, endurance, tactical ability and efficiency. Do you count a bijuu's power into an evaluation of the jinchuuriki? Beyond even that, you have things like charisma, intellect, political power, wealth and leadership. 'Best' leaves us with an even more fundamental question: what is a shinobi's function, so that we can determine at what they are meant to excel. Early in the series, shinobi were painted primarily as paramilitary organizations, nominally aligned with their host nations, but serving ultimately as mercenaries to private clientele where more conventional groups were not viable. As the series progressed, the mystical aspects of shinobi became more prominent, and we saw less and less actual espionage/sabotage/bodyguard contract work as the Shippuden plot asserted itself. Since then, shinobi have become more and more like wizards, and their apparent role became that of 'magical army.' But even if we were to stick to the more interesting presentation given in the earlier parts of the manga, 'best' would still be uncertain. Is the 'best' shinobi the most anonymous? The quickest? The most versatile? Can a shinobi who primarily takes on assassination work (Kakashi) be compared to a shinobi who primarily takes on intelligence work (Inoichi)? Can either of them be fairly compared to a shinobi who specializes in training others (Ebisu)? Is a great shinobi just a truly effective mercenary, or should a shinobi be a visionary, with his own ambitions and the skills to pull them off? The Rikudou Sennin certainly is important as the founder of the shinobi world, and is quite possibly the most powerful spellcaster in the story. But he wasn't actually a shinobi himself, he was a priest, and to judge by his legacy--splitting the Juubi and training others in his ways--he seemed more concerned with protecting the world from the bijuu than establishing a worldwide phenomenon of magical warriors. It's a curiosity of fiction that it tends to idolize originators, despite the fact that they are almost never the best at what they do, and Rikudou Sennin was not the 'best' shinobi. I could spend all evening reasoning through the 'best' or 'strongest' shinobi in various categories, but I'm just going to pick the definition that resonates the most with me: the political assassin and saboteur. I choose this angle because it's the most interesting to me; it's a trivial thing for a writer to make up big magical powers for his characters, and it is often unsatisfying due to the thoughtlessness with which such things get toyed with to allow the story to continue: eye-based powers, which started off with the relatively tame basic Sharingan, are the ultimate buffoon's tool for forcing stalemates and pulling undeserved victories out of the ether. Political intrigue, infiltrations, manipulations and betrayal, however? This is fascinating; this is what a story about shinobi should deal with. In that regard, Orochimaru is the supreme shinobi of the series. He orchestrated massive societal upheaval and amassed power sufficient to the task in utter secrecy; no one knew what he was up to until he had already moved all of his pieces into place and he elected to reveal himself. Even the act of revealing himself was a carefully calculated move: it simultaneously pushed Sasuke over the edge into his myopic quest for power, which would lead him into Orochimaru's clutches; and it exacerbated the damage done to international peace by the Sunagakure and Otogakure attack on Konohagakure. It went from being a sudden attack by two nominally peaceful but tense neighbors to being an alliance between those nations and one of the two most wanted traitors to Konoha alive. Orochimaru left Konoha only after his extensive human experimentation and agitations for the post of Yondaime Hokage were discovered, meaning that Suna and Oto were seen, by extension, as collaborating in a coup not just to defeat Konoha's military power, but to wipe it out and absorb it into their allied territory as a platform for further aggressive expansion. Orochimaru played off all the fears and history associated with his name, and even when his immediate mission failed, he still got his more crucial long-term objective (Sasuke) and caused the death of Sarutobi Hiruzen, leaving a massive power vacuum that, in a story with more realistically treated politics, would have achieved the same goal of starting a world war that Orochimaru had aimed for. He also displayed extreme shrewdness with regards to Akatsuki. Knowing his personality, he undoubtedly joined seeking to gain new insight into jutsu and progress towards immortality. However, it became apparent to him that Itachi would present an obstacle in his efforts to use the group, one he lacked the power to tackle directly. A typical villain of his power would have probably tried to stick it out pridefully. Orochimaru cut his losses and left, but not before planting Kabuto as a double-agent in Sasori's "service" so that he could stay apprised of Akatsuki's movements. Again, he turns loss into gain. He is also the shrewdest observer and manipulator of character in the series, knowing exactly how to gather like-minded, capable allies and subordinates. While some see him as a path to power and others revere him like a god, many of his greatest subordinates, as we see them, are fiercely loyal to him. This is his true strength: though he may not have been fit as a kage for Konohagakure, the desginated 'good guy' village, he had all the right skills to be a kage, and despite its small size, Otogakure was probably the most effective paramilitary machine around during its existence. Orochimaru, Shodai Otokage, was the 'best' shinobi. Danzou, Kakashi, Itachi and Zabuza occupy a stand-out tier below him, but have considerable failings that make them fall short of the mark.
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Last edited by Ricky Controversy; 2011-12-15 at 22:52. |
2011-12-15, 22:03 | Link #385 | |||||||
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how would gaara hold his own against hashirama? he got dominated by deidara who was relatively on even par with pre MS sasuke |
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2011-12-15, 23:24 | Link #386 |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2011
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I don't see your beef with pain being stronger then sm naruto, pain already fought the hokage, kakashi, and countless other ninja before beating sm naruto, if you recall hinata stepping in saved his life. Pain already checkmated him in that fight, then lOcked him up when he went 6 tails, and then naruto was bailed out my minato. Pain beat naruto in like 5 minutes even after destroying a whole village, sm naruto is nOt in the same league as pain, let alone his true power as just nagato. Naruto would have lost on several occasions without intervention against a weakened pain who single handedly demolished the strongest village.
You seem to think naruto is the strongest character, it's proved time and time again he still has a lot to learn, he will undoubtably be the strongest at the end, but he isn't there yet. Again, everybOdy ahead of itachi are ppl that are obviously superior, you can't name one person I put in front of him he can actually beat. Gaara could hold his own with anybody in the series, it's almost laughable you say deidara dominated him. If he didn't have to protect a whole village while fighting it may have turned out a lil different. If it makes you feel better when itachi WAS in his prime only 2 ppl ahead of him were in existence, nagato and tobi. So itachi would be #3 for his time, but with all the generations included, he falls between 15-20 easily. Last edited by Daniel E.; 2011-12-16 at 00:05. |
2011-12-15, 23:47 | Link #387 | ||||||||
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2011-12-16, 06:50 | Link #388 | |
The Isley
Join Date: Oct 2011
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2011-12-16, 07:20 | Link #390 |
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@itachi-san314
You are downplaying valid points here. Yes, Naruto defeated Pain, but yes, he was nowhere near Pain's level. How is that possible? Naruto got help. Who helped him? Let's see . . . - The entire village, by exhausting Pain a bit before the battle even began - Tsunade's slug, by giving vital information and by healing Naruto - The fact that Naruto came into the battle prepared, and with two clones charging energy in a place unreachable for Pain - Hinata, by being stupid enough to almost die, enraging Naruto - The Kyuubi, by feeding on Naruto's rage and going eight-tails mode - Minato, by having implemented a failsave in the Kyuubi's seal Pain defeated Naruto. It would have all been over, if it wasn't for the Kyuubi, who took over. Naruto did not draw power from the Kyuubi, it was the ninetails, who overtook Naruto's body and went on a rampage. Neither Pain or Naruto would have won that battle without Minato, but the Kyuubi. You can't count the Kyuubi's doing in that fight as actions taken by Naruto. Naruto was out. He had no control over the situation whatsoever. Without Hinata's stupid sacrifice, there was no way in hell Naruto could have actually defeated Pain, even with all the other help he received. In the anime, there has been no greater display of power than Pain's. Nothing even comes close. If Pain and Naruto would have met under normal circumstances, alone in some place, without ever having heard of one another, wihtout help, and without being prepared to battle their specific opponent. Pain would have crushed Naruto. He would have wiped the floor with him, without taking a single hit and without breaking a single sweat. SM Naruto defeated Pain, but he was worlds below his level.
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2011-12-16, 10:01 | Link #391 |
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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I couldnt have said it better myself @goten
The point I will concede is 8gates gai being stronger then kisame, and when I get around to updating my list it will reflect that, however I will not or will I ever put sm naruto ahead of pain, ppl like sm cause it looks cool or whatever, bit it has already become obsolete against the current opponents. And you still think deidara dominated gaara? I understand trying to capture somebody alive is a lot harder then trying to kill somebody, but trying to protect 10s of thousands of ppl while trying to fight is a WHOLE lot harder then trying to capture somebody alive, even still, if deidara had dominated that fight he wouldn't have spent most of the time running from gaara, and he would have left the fight still having both of his arms. Also, sasori let chiyo and Sakura win which chiyo commented on at the end of the fight, further proof of how strong he was is oro setting a trap for him and having help from kabuto to tag team him at once. Sasori is being highly underrated by you because of his short stint. I mean, the guy killed the strongest kazekage to ever live without anybody even knowing what happened to him. In sasori's fight as an edo, he just decided to let himself be sealed, the group he was fighting didn't stand a chance against him, even the cocky deidara showed sasori a tremendous amount of respect, and deidara wanted to kill oro because he didn't share that respect with sasori and abandoned their team. Like I said before, the 4th mizukages greatest feat was being mind raped by tobi into being a puppet, nothing he did compared to sasori's accomplishments, and seeing how the 4th and 5th mizukage are around the same age, I can only surmise he is stronger then her, hence being named mizukage before her. Last edited by Sasukemaru; 2011-12-16 at 10:18. |
2011-12-16, 13:45 | Link #392 | |
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2011-12-16, 14:32 | Link #393 | |
Frandle & Nightbag
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2011-12-16, 16:00 | Link #394 | |||||||||||
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if you want to go down the road of saying naruto didnt beat pain because of the kyuubi then you have to discount all of bee's fights since he uses the 8 tails. and anyone who uses summonings as well (*ahem* NAGATO DOES!), which I hope you will see as faulty logic eventually. they are all techniques and modes that 1 person is using in a fight Quote:
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I'm a big sasori supporter so I think you're next comments are for someone else. anyway, I recall you laughing about me saying sasuke beat bee and that was with bee using the 8 tails, yet when naruto uses the 9 tails you give him no credit for withstanding that form. it's very hypocritical. also sasori uses puppets and pain uses summonings. are they discounted by your logic as well? and what about weapons? the bottom line is that a ninja can use whatever he wants in a battle. that was explained a long long time ago when kiba fought naruto using akamaru. its all fair in battle with ninjas |
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2011-12-16, 16:12 | Link #395 |
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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Itachis power had already reached it's peak @ Ricky, sasuke has already passed up itachi with his new ems, or most evidence would support anyway, and sasuke is still only 16 which is a good 10 or so years from his actual prime. Sasuke has a much higher ceiling then itachi, and if oro saw that I'm sure tobi did too.
And back to the debate about sm naruto, if hinata didn't get in the way the rod would have impaled naruto and it's game over, him going 6 tails is actually the kyuubi fighting not naruto who was unconscience. So it really isn't comparable to bee going full bijuu because bee is still the one in control. |
2011-12-16, 16:20 | Link #396 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2011
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edit: also, you cant assume naruto wouldnt use the demon cloak to break free without hinata interfering. he most certainly would have, unless you believe naruto to be the type of character to give up and concede his life to someone else |
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2011-12-16, 16:35 | Link #397 |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2011
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I'm not assuming anything so neither should you, 99 percent of the ppl who saw that fight knows pain is more powerful then sm naruto. Also using a summoning is something the ninja does, using a weapon is also something a ninja chooses to do. However getting possesed most certaintly isn't, once he went 6 tails it was the kyuubi vs pain, not naruto vs pain.
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2011-12-16, 16:44 | Link #398 | |
Frandle & Nightbag
Join Date: Oct 2009
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Of course, it all becomes speculation when discussing Yondaime and Godaime Mizukage, as we have little to compare them by; I was merely suggesting that it is equally possible he was chosen by Tobi because he was the weaker-willed or more naive, and thus easier to manipulate.
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2011-12-16, 17:13 | Link #399 | |
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edit: also, lets not lose sight of the fact that all 6 paths of pain were beaten by SM naruto. don't believe me? reread/rewatch and see for yourself. KM naruto began after SM naruto beat 5 paths and ended before deva pain was beaten by SM naruto Last edited by itachi-san314; 2011-12-16 at 17:28. |
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