What happened to patience?

[Elepsis]

So, I was reading the two long, long threads about Naruto right now -- well, skimming, really, as I can't stomach the stupidity in such large doses...

What struck me about these two threads though, is the attitude exhibited by the "new school" of both leechers and subbers. First, the leechers: What's the deal? Anbu/AonE are SLOW? They're releasing the episodes _before the next one airs_. Consistently. Look around you at the other series that are currently being fansubbed. How many decent groups are releasing their projects within a week of the airdate on the shows they sub? Most series are behind; in many cases, significantly so. Why is it such a huge deal if Anbu/AonE take four or five days to sub the latest Naruto episode when you put it into perspective? Shows like Sensei no Ojikan or Keroro Gunsou are weeks behind their respective airings. Others are YEARS behind. And hey, some groups even pick up old shows that finished airing in the 1980s -- but who's ever heard of THAT sort of silliness? Seriously... are you so pathetic that you can't wait a few extra days for your anime fix? Do you watch every episode that comes out within 12 hours of its release? Maybe you people need to expand your horizons a little... there's more to life than Naruto.

And as for the groups... Several times within the threads I read comments like "the episode was ready, but we decided to reencode it to fix some more errors and add ending karaoke..." Yeah, guys... maybe I'm just old-school like that, but in my book that counts as the episode being "not ready." Why are you all in such a big hurry to get your episodes out? It doesn't matter if it takes a few extra days, or even another week, if there's an improvement. How many QC passes do you all do? Our recent Arete release involved three complete QC passes by at least two people, and twice that number of reencodes. Furthermore, in each QC pass, there was extensive discussion of every change that was made between the QC staff and the people who originally did the work involved to make sure that any and all lines we could spot were correct. Many episodes I've worked on in the past have taken even more -- a Piano episode took six full QC passes before we managed to get it out, if I remember correctly. I like to think the quality of our work shows that amount of dedication, even if the vast majority of leechers won't appreciate it. Princess Arete took us nearly two years to complete, and granted, this is abnormally slow. But what exactly is wrong with taking a week or two to work on an episode to be thorough? The show isn't going to go anywhere.

What's happened to patience? In the old days, long release times were normal, and people accepted them. There was less oversubbing as a result, and the popular shows did not get subbed by eight groups versus the less popular shows being subbed once in a millenium by no one. Is that so hard to accept?

[Thany]

Well... I don't want to generalize, but you just have to look at how messy is the Naruto's forum to find out why they're like this.
It's sad, but you will never be able to get people like these to understand that quality>speed -.-
Personally I stopped watching Naruto at ~EP8, but if I didn't, I would wait for a good group release, not get the first release that appear that might be fake *hints*FFS*hints*
The FFS Naruto fansub should have been a good lesson for the leeches, but it didn't help unfortunatly.
That's what you get from people like this and that will never change

[Darth_E_]

Originally Posted by Elepsis

So, I was reading the two long, long threads about Naruto right now -- well, skimming, really, as I can't stomach the stupidity in such large doses...

What struck me about these two threads though, is the attitude exhibited by the "new school" of both leechers and subbers. First, the leechers: What's the deal? Anbu/AonE are SLOW? They're releasing the episodes _before the next one airs_. Consistently. Look around you at the other series that are currently being fansubbed. How many decent groups are releasing their projects within a week of the airdate on the shows they sub? Most series are behind; in many cases, significantly so. Why is it such a huge deal if Anbu/AonE take four or five days to sub the latest Naruto episode when you put it into perspective? Shows like Sensei no Ojikan or Keroro Gunsou are weeks behind their respective airings. Others are YEARS behind. And hey, some groups even pick up old shows that finished airing in the 1980s -- but who's ever heard of THAT sort of silliness? Seriously... are you so pathetic that you can't wait a few extra days for your anime fix? Do you watch every episode that comes out within 12 hours of its release? Maybe you people need to expand your horizons a little... there's more to life than Naruto.

And as for the groups... Several times within the threads I read comments like "the episode was ready, but we decided to reencode it to fix some more errors and add ending karaoke..." Yeah, guys... maybe I'm just old-school like that, but in my book that counts as the episode being "not ready." Why are you all in such a big hurry to get your episodes out? It doesn't matter if it takes a few extra days, or even another week, if there's an improvement. How many QC passes do you all do? Our recent Arete release involved three complete QC passes by at least two people, and twice that number of reencodes. Furthermore, in each QC pass, there was extensive discussion of every change that was made between the QC staff and the people who originally did the work involved to make sure that any and all lines we could spot were correct. Many episodes I've worked on in the past have taken even more -- a Piano episode took six full QC passes before we managed to get it out, if I remember correctly. I like to think the quality of our work shows that amount of dedication, even if the vast majority of leechers won't appreciate it. Princess Arete took us nearly two years to complete, and granted, this is abnormally slow. But what exactly is wrong with taking a week or two to work on an episode to be thorough? The show isn't going to go anywhere.

What's happened to patience? In the old days, long release times were normal, and people accepted them. There was less oversubbing as a result, and the popular shows did not get subbed by eight groups versus the less popular shows being subbed once in a millenium by no one. Is that so hard to accept?

The question of "Where is the patience?" should be forwarded to the fans rather than the subbers IMHO. Why? Try and take a look at the comments posted on the Naruto forum ( I can give you an example if you wish, such as this : http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=17352 ). They cannot wait for Naruto to be subbed in a few days. NO! it should be subbed instantly. I wouldnt be suprised if they commited suicide if they didnt have their weekly "dose" of naruto,...( right,..its that pethatic ).

As concerning fansubbing, I dunno how it goes with other groups, but we in S-O/SD do two timing passes/two editing passes , then we check the script before and after encoding. We work on the ep the very moment we recieve the raw till the release. I dont see why we should release it 1 month later on, nor why should we release it the very same day the raw is available. We release it when we think its ready,...simple as that.

Yours,
-Elly

[Kasshin]

The first paragraph of what I posted yesterday here covers what I think about this, so I won't repeat myself. I don't see what's so bad about watching Naruto on another day of the week. If it was me, I'd want to enjoy watching my favorite anime in the best way possible, by watching the best quality release possible. And they come weekly. What's there to complain about?

And then, you encourage their bad attitude by providing speed subs. Why would you do that if you think it's pathetic? Don't blame the fans. Are you saying you're subbing just for your "pathethic" fans? Decide what's the right thing to do for yourself.

[Roots]

I agree. Naruto fanboys suck. Seriously how many groups have been fansubbing Naruto now. Like 50 past and present? Its not like Naruto has a lot of deep cliffhangers either. I can easily wait for a quality sub rather than a hacked piece of crap that some make-shift group of rabid fanboys put together to try and release Naruto 20 minutes after it airs. I'm going to stop bitching here before I end up wasting more of my time thinking about those fools.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Roots

I agree. Naruto fanboys suck. Seriously how many groups have been fansubbing Naruto now. Like 50 past and present?

30 groups (27 releases) - and thats not counting the rejected/fakes.

Naruto sucks... Naruto fanboys suck more... Naruto fansubbers (Except the original groups) suck the most...

[Kyoji]

woah, 30 groups? insanity T_T

i didnt realise it was that many, my mind is melting!

[Darth_E_]

Originally Posted by Kasshin

And then, you encourage their bad attitude by providing speed subs. Why would you do that if you think it's pathetic? Don't blame the fans. Are you saying you're subbing just for your "pathethic" fans? Decide what's the right thing to do for yourself.

We arent a speed sub ( nor were we formed to release speed subs from the first place, despite our few fast releases at the begining). We take our time to release. I dont remember calling all fans "pethatic",I know not all of them are like that ( but a big portion of them are,...unfortunatly).

Yours,
-Elly

[DekaMaster]

Originally Posted by Elly

We arent a speed sub ( nor were we formed to release speed subs from the first place, despite our few fast releases at the begining). We take our time to release. I dont remember calling all fans "pethatic",I know not all of them are like that ( but a big portion of them are,...unfortunatly).

Yours,
-Elly

Why did you form? I mean if you love Naruto so much wouldn't you want to do it from ep1?

[Tofusensei]

Originally Posted by DekaMaster

Why did you form? I mean if you love Naruto so much wouldn't you want to do it from ep1?

....awaiting typical copout answer...

-Tofu

[Darth_E_]

Originally Posted by DekaMaster

Why did you form? I mean if you love Naruto so much wouldn't you want to do it from ep1?

And who said that we arent going to sub the earlier episodes ?

Yours,
-Elly

[Elepsis]

Originally Posted by Elly

We take our time to release.

When that statement is taken in light of many of your other comments, it's obvious that you're either extremely misguided or simply don't know what "taking one's time to release" really means.

Edit since you posted at the same time as me:
And why couldn't you do it IN ORDER if you were planning to do the first episodes all along? If you're just concerned about love of the series, and not getting the leechers, why would you start at episode 70-something?

[Darth_E_]

Originally Posted by Elepsis

When that statement is taken in light of many of your other comments, it's obvious that you're either extremely misguided or simply don't know what "taking one's time to release" really means.

I thank you for your compliment. Perhaps you can give me a few pointers then?

Regardless, I have no obligation to answer such questions, yet I did, but in return i get personal attacks......great.

edit : Leechers? where are those leechers? There was a time when we released After Anbu/Aone. If we want to attract leechers then why bother QC'ing? Lets release it 5 hours after the raw airs,.....heh, that is if leechers were our goal

Also, you should realise how hard it is now to aquire the earlier raws, it would be much easier for us, or any other group to sub from the later episodes. More importantly, if you bothered reading the previous threads, you ll see how those questions were answered before. What is going on now is basically another re-cap of the same old questions.

Yours,
-Elly

[Elepsis]

Originally Posted by Elly

I thank you for your compliment. Perhaps you can give me a few pointers then?

You read my comments in the original post. How can an episode be considered ready when you know there are still errors in it? How can an episode be considered ready when you haven't done everything with it that you planned to? How can an episode be considered ready until it's as good as you can possibly make it?

Originally Posted by Elly

Regardless, I have no obligation to answer such questions, yet I did, but in return i get personal attacks......great.

Welcome to the internet.

Originally Posted by Elly

edit : Leechers? where are those leechers? There was a time when we released After Anbu/Aone. If we want to attract leechers then why bother QC'ing? Lets release it 5 hours after the raw airs,.....heh, that is if leechers were our goal

The argument isn't about what your goal is, but what your general attitude towards your work is.

Originally Posted by Elly

Also, you should realise how hard it is now to aquire the earlier raws, it would be much easier for us, or any other group to sub from the later episodes.

The same shitty cop-out excuse again. Don't even TALK to me about "how hard it is to get raws" -- You're telling me that getting early Naruto raws is harder than, say, Touch, or Miracle Girls, or Gakkou no Kaidan? Only to the extent that you have to actually get off your ass and go somewhere other than l337-raws. Gee, check out cdjapan -- see those shiny DVDs they have there? If you love the damn show so much, you could always _buy_ it. The raws for early Naruto eps are hard to find? Please!

Originally Posted by Elly

More importantly, if you bothered reading the previous threads, you ll see how those questions were answered before. What is going on now is basically another re-cap of the same old questions.

When I posted the main topic, I did not solely direct it at you, though I did use it as an example. The fact that it DID in fact degenerate into the same old arguments is that you were the only one to stand up for your ethic. Much as I disagree with you in general, good for you.

- Elepsis

[Darth_E_]

Originally Posted by Elepsis

You read my comments in the original post. How can an episode be considered ready when you know there are still errors in it? How can an episode be considered ready when you haven't done everything with it that you planned to? How can an episode be considered ready until it's as good as you can possibly make it?

Did we release it back then ? No? Then its not ready. So now i am getting bashed because I gave a status update. Oh god no, I have sinned

Originally Posted by Elepsis

The argument isn't about what your goal is, but what your general attitude towards your work is.

Fair enough. Then I will stop posting anything regarding my group. Problem solved

Originally Posted by Elepsis

The same shitty cop-out excuse again. Don't even TALK to me about "how hard it is to get raws" -- You're telling me that getting early Naruto raws is harder than, say, Touch, or Miracle Girls, or Gakkou no Kaidan? Only to the extent that you have to actually get off your ass and go somewhere other than l337-raws. Gee, check out cdjapan -- see those shiny DVDs they have there? If you love the damn show so much, you could always _buy_ it. The raws for early Naruto eps are hard to find? Please!

lol, since when do I have to give YOU an excuse ? and who said that we werent considering buying the DVDs ? We were supposed to release the old eps by now if we didnt come across a few difficulties ( and no, its not only raw aquisation). There is more into the earlier episodes subbing which you ( and most people as a matter of fact) dont know, so please stop talking as if you know whats going on behind the scenes, because apparently,...you dont know whats going

Originally Posted by Elepsis

When I posted the main topic, I did not solely direct it at you, though I did use it as an example. The fact that it DID in fact degenerate into the same old arguments is that you were the only one to stand up for your ethic. Much as I disagree with you in general, good for you.

Hey whatever you like. To me this thread was to bash us indirectly ( using what I personally said on another thread,..not to mention how you misread it yourself). So yeah, feel free to insult, bash, rant, do whatever you like. It doesnt really matter to me. We are going to sub naruto and we will be trying to improve ourselves more. Like it, dont like, ...whatever

Yours,
-Elly

[Elepsis]

Originally Posted by Elly

Did we release it back then ? No? Then its not ready. So now i am getting bashed because I gave a status update. Oh god no, I have sinned

lol, since when do I have to give YOU an excuse ? and who said that we considering buying the DVDs ? We were supposed to release the old eps by now if we didnt come across a few difficulties ( and no, its not only raw aquisation). There is more into the earlier episodes subbing which you ( and most people as a matter of fact) dont know, so please stop talking as if you know whats going on behind the scenes, because apparently,...you dont know whats going

You know, if you say something, you really should stand by your words, not take them back when it's inconvenient. You said "Also, you should realise how hard it is now to aquire the earlier raws, it would be much easier for us, or any other group to sub from the later episodes." -- no mention of any of these "other problems." I responded to YOUR EXACT WORDS. And you go on to berate me for it. At least you're amusing, in your own way.

As far as a "status update," again, you're backtracking on the words you used yourself. YOU said "the episode was ready, but we decided to re-encode it again to fix some errors and add ed karaoke" -- now you claim that isn't what you meant, and that _I_ misread it? Heh.

[Darth_E_]

I am glad that you find it amusing...

Originally Posted by Elepsis

You know, if you say something, you really should stand by your words, not take them back when it's inconvenient. You said "Also, you should realise how hard it is now to aquire the earlier raws, it would be much easier for us, or any other group to sub from the later episodes." -- no mention of any of these "other problems." I responded to YOUR EXACT WORDS. And you go on to berate me for it. At least you're amusing, in your own way.

I dont remember taking back my words, I still stand by them. Yes, raws is one problem, but thats not all. I am not going to go in detail because thats an in-group issue. Dont believe me,..fine, whatever flows your boat.

Originally Posted by Elepsis

As far as a "status update," again, you're backtracking on the words you used yourself. YOU said "the episode was ready, but we decided to re-encode it again to fix some errors and add ed karaoke" -- now you claim that isn't what you meant, and that _I_ misread it? Heh.

I am gonna quote myself :

Also our release was ready this morning, however, we re-encoded it to fix a few minor mistakes ( 1 typo, 1 edit and 2 timing changes ), so that delayed the release for another 5-6 hours.

Perhaps adding the words "supposed to be ready this morning" make it more clearer to you? Since it wouldnt be "ready" if we decided to re-encode again. ( and yeah, you misread it, where did I mention the words "and add ed karaoke" in there?) But like I said, if my comments is the problem, then I will stop posting them from now on.

Yours,
-Elly

[DukeGaladrien]

Originally Posted by Elepsis

As far as a "status update," again, you're backtracking on the words you used yourself. YOU said "the episode was ready, but we decided to re-encode it again to fix some errors and add ed karaoke" -- now you claim that isn't what you meant, and that _I_ misread it? Heh.

Wow man what's with the attitude? It looks to me like you've stooped down to insulting someone for fixing a couple small errors they found on their sub. It's like me doing a term paper for college and saying "yeah I finished writing the essay but I need to go back and fix a couple typos."

And as for SO subbing current releases instead of starting at #1 it's fairly simple. If they started at #1 now they would miss a huge opportunity to attract fans to their subbing work. Why would people want to download any early episode naruto subs of theirs if they didn't have exposure to SO's work? By doing current episodes it allows them to attract a fanbase, is there anything wrong with that?

Anyways just wanted to say keep up the good work Elly, don't let any naysayers get to you.

[Rias]

It's not just naruto...happens to other series too. I think the main problem is that quite a few people take fansubs granted. Heck, they take airing in Japan for granted. I was reading some thread that someone was on rage about how some naruto epsiode didn't come out for a day, turns out that the station didn't air the epsiode for that week.

That also applies to when groups drops a project when it is licenced. "Oh man damn those companies, they should wait until the fansubs are all out". Seriously, taking things for granted.

[kuru]

Originally Posted by DukeGaladrien

episodes it allows them to attract a fanbase, is there anything wrong with that?

Nothing, if you admit what you want is a "fanbase".

Now, I ask: a "fanbase" made of people who just want to download the first version of a Naruto episode that's available, no matter if it's good or not, a fanbase that probably doesn't even notice the name of the group that did the fansubbing is a fanbase of what ?

For me they're (retarded) fans of Naruto, not of the fansubbing group.

BTW, I've only watched the first 14 episodes of Naruto, but I can't see why people think that thing is fantastic.... I wonder if it gets better or if the problem it that the good thing people see in it is the fights (as I couldn't care less about the so-called "cool fights").