The future of fansubs at stake?

[Kururu-chan]

I'm a newbie here, I hope I'm posting this in the right place. @.@;;

Anyway, it seems that Japanese anime companies are going to start taking legal action against fansubbers, possibly even those fansubbing unlicensed titles in the U.S and other countires outside of Japan. You can read the article here:

http://www.fansview.com/2004/otakon/080104a.htm

Does anyone else see this as a threat to fansubs/fansubbers? or are the Japanese companies just bluffing to try to scare fansubbers into backing off a bit? Any thoughts?

[Yamano667]

It would be really hard to make fansubbers disappear hehe How can they stop fansubbers who live in Finland, Canada or Sweeden where mp3 rippin/software piracy and distribution is legal. Its tooo late for them to stop fansubbers, because now we provide the original anime, without the censoring and editing that the american licensing companies distribute to the public


There is no reason to worry .....I am no worried
Its too late to stop us now
Its easier to stop cocaine druglord traffikers, than software or fansubbing piracy, and you might ask why ?? well the internet is a lawless world, and some countries like canada or finland do not have cyberlaws
...GOD BLESS THE FINISH FLAG

[LordBrian]

I may just not be paying attention, but I haven't seen any evidence of Japanese companies fighting against fansubs (licensed or not). I've seen American companies fighting against subbers doing licensed shows as well as bootleggers, but still nothing against unlicensed shows. I'd be interested to see what unlicensed shows the Japanese companies plan on fighting against (if any).

God, I hope it's Naruto.

[Yamano667]

I agree with you naruto sucks

Originally Posted by LordBrian

I may just not be paying attention, but I haven't seen any evidence of Japanese companies fighting against fansubs (licensed or not). I've seen American companies fighting against subbers doing licensed shows as well as bootleggers, but still nothing against unlicensed shows. I'd be interested to see what unlicensed shows the Japanese companies plan on fighting against (if any).

God, I hope it's Naruto.

[helix-xen]

im not sure this is at all true or even at all somthing to take seriously. The japanese industry has said (more times that 1) that fansubbers are like free advertising. The japanese industry loves fansubbers because for 1 if the americans like what they see in the fansubbs they may just buy the DVDs when they become available. It wouldent make sence to destroy this free form of advertising. Its people who take licenced DVDs they bought and encode them for free. That is really bad and brings all of us down. Please dont worry. The internet is lawless.

[exedore]

Matt G. has been making that kind of statement for years, yet Pandora's Cube still stands. This could be empty threats, but with the takedowns earlier this year, I guess anything is possible.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by helix-xen

The japanese industry has said (more times that 1) that fansubbers are like free advertising. The japanese industry loves fansubbers because for 1 if the americans like what they see in the fansubbs they may just buy the DVDs when they become available. It wouldent make sence to destroy this free form of advertising.

The japanese industry has not said that and turned a blind eye to fansubbers. They do not like fansubbers at all for the most part. They are glad that they are fans, but that is where the love ends.

[wao]

Yes; I think they don't appreciate the fact that we use raws which are very illegal...

Once I was commenting on something on a Japanese person's blog, commenting on a recent episode of an anime show to be precise... and he said something to the extent of "sorry, but I can't talk to you about this because technically this anime is not available to outsiders" (The DVD was far from being out.)...

I suppose eventually we have to let go of our addiction to anime; especially for people here... Not many things are being licensed and the only way to watch a large amount of well-subbed anime is to download... However, even if we may never get to see the anime, or even if watching the anime first creates some kind of fan scene for it, the point is if we're using raws that are illegal, then there's nothing that can be done about it...

Importing R1/R2s is expensive though. If this really happens and there is a major crackdown on fansub groups then maybe I got to start turning to manga...

[Mr_Paper]

Originally Posted by Yamano667

It would be really hard to make fansubbers disappear hehe How can they stop fansubbers who live in Finland, Canada or Sweeden where mp3 rippin/software piracy and distribution is legal. Its tooo late for them to stop fansubbers, because now we provide the original anime, without the censoring and editing that the american licensing companies distribute to the public


There is no reason to worry .....I am no worried
Its too late to stop us now
Its easier to stop cocaine druglord traffikers, than software or fansubbing piracy, and you might ask why ?? well the internet is a lawless world, and some countries like canada or finland do not have cyberlaws
...GOD BLESS THE FINISH FLAG

You need to go learn about the laws you don't think exist. -.-

I don't know about Finland or Sweden, but in Canada it is 100% illegal to rip music, to pirate software and to distrubte it. Go read the laws. They clearly state that all the actions you wish were legal aren't and the only thing that's even under debate is whether having MP3s in a shared directory constitutes distribution. Canada without cyberlaws, that is such a load of bull. Maybe you could go tell that to the family that was arrested and fined $750,000 for spamming Yahoo emails or the kids from Quebec that were arrested for DDoS'ing several web servers. Maybe you could also take this up with the pedophiles charged with soliting sex from minors in chatrooms.

I hate people, especially Canadians, that delude themselves into believing such lies. More than that, I hate people who view fansubbing as this glorious and rightous movement that is above all laws and shines with the light of God.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Mr_Paper

I don't know about Finland or Sweden, but in Canada it is 100% illegal to rip music, to pirate software and to distrubte it. Go read the laws. They clearly state that all the actions you wish were legal aren't and the only thing that's even under debate is whether having MP3s in a shared directory constitutes distribution. [...] I hate people, especially Canadians, that delude themselves into believing such lies. More than that, I hate people who view fansubbing as this glorious and rightous movement that is above all laws and shines with the light of God.

While I agree with the principle of what you are saying: fansubbing is not a right, and it is definitely illegal under International Copyright laws (which Canada has agreed to), we do have some peculiarities involving making personal copies of media. In fact, in Canada, it is not illegal to rip music or broadcasted TV shows for personal use (it is explicitly permitted by law), but it is illegal to distribute it - that is the debate you are referring to. I don't want to derail this thread with legal arguments, though, since I definitely agree with the main point of your message. The fact is that fansubs are an illegal and unmerited favour that we are given - the abuse of which may very well lead to it's demise. Having an attitude of "there's no way those evil corporations will stop us" is so completely opposite to the original goal of fansubbing, that it's embarassing to those of us who keep trying to honestly argue the benefits of it. If we want fansubs to still exist in this "comfortable grey area", then we need to rise above this and really support the industry. Unfortunately, it may already be too late...

[jennwenn]

Originally Posted by Yamano667

It would be really hard to make fansubbers disappear hehe How can they stop fansubbers who live in Finland, Canada or Sweeden where mp3 rippin/software piracy and distribution is legal. Its tooo late for them to stop fansubbers, because now we provide the original anime, without the censoring and editing that the american licensing companies distribute to the public

There is no reason to worry .....I am no worried
Its too late to stop us now
Its easier to stop cocaine druglord traffikers, than software or fansubbing piracy, and you might ask why ?? well the internet is a lawless world, and some countries like canada or finland do not have cyberlaws
...GOD BLESS THE FINISH FLAG

What Mr. Paper said about Canada goes for Finland and Sweden and just about everywhere on Earth too. Music and software piracy is not legal. That's why its called PIRACY!!! Whoever told you that it was legal did not know what he or she was talking about.

I don't really care if fansubs disappear. That's what DVDs and TV is for. Heck, there's speculation that bittorrent will disappear in a year. Who knows? Nothing lasts forever, so don't count on anything.

In the linked article, I don't think that report was written too well because I find it a little confusing. So they're saying profits are up in the US and Europe, but down in Asia? And the reason is online anime raws or English language digital fansubs? I can't understand what connection they're making. Shouldn't they be going after the Japanese who rip the anime and put it online in the first place? I suppose they're harder to find than some fansubbing group that has their own website...

Asia is a hopeless case. Its estimated that over 90% of everything sold in China is a bootleg, from clothes to software to books. That's just insane.

[Access]

"Everyone of us works with Japanese companies, and the Japanese companies are pushing us hard to crack down on the fansubbers. Within the next couple of months, you're going to see some fansubbers hit hard... it's ugly." Greenfield, who appeared with representatives...

Are pushing _them_ hard to crack down on the fansubbers? That doesn't make a lot of sense, MG seems a bit self-absorbed. It's the japanese companies that would have to do the cracking down, as the article itself states repeatedly.

The act of fansubbing itself is next to nothing, it's the distribution (esp. large-scale distribution) of a fansub that they could sue over. If they go after groups themselves, save the ones that endorse their own [large-scale] distribution, they're just making people mad.

Fansubbers are blamed in the case of anime, but consider if any money can be made from any copy-able medium in those asian countries, I thought everything (not just anime) was being copied there... and that's the problem if they really care to fix it. Going after fansubbers themselves is just scapegoating, it won't make the real problem go away.

Seriously if there's any truth to the article I'd say they go after raw providers in Japan, that would explain MG's statement "you're going to see some fansubbers hit hard" -- yeah they're 'hit hard' because they've got no raws to sub from, but it's sensationalizing and an inflated sense of self on his part (no matter how you look at it). Course they can also shut down sites like this one, BT distro sites and servers like scarywater; but BT itself isn't going away, it's the only reasonable way to get things like the latest linux redhat/fedora distribution. Try http'ing or ftp'ing a 650mb file from one of the distro sites, BT is essential here and other places (not to mention perfectly legal). It's not going away unless it's replaced by something better, the same way it largely replaced irc fileserver/xdcc bots (it was better).

[Vide]

Originally Posted by jennwenn

What Mr. Paper said about Canada goes for Finland and Sweden and just about everywhere on Earth too. Music and software piracy is not legal. That's why its called PIRACY!!! Whoever told you that it was legal did not know what he or she was talking about.

Just a quick reply on this.

In Norway it is not illegal to download music or movies, but it is
illegal to share it.

-

I think that if the companies are going after somebody, they should focus
on the dvd-rippers, instead of the fansubbers.

[DekaMaster]

This is all old and boring. ADV says the same thing every time.

Fansubs are ruining the world
Fansubs ruin the japanese economy


They allways say they don't care about fansubs as long as you don't do their licensed stuff etc but they go after any fansubbers. To them fansubbers are the devil reborn.

[Spooky-Electric]

From what I understand, and based on my limited knowledge, these American companies can't really do anything against fansubbing of unlicensed series. They say in that article that Japanese companies are working with American companies to stop fansubbing, but what can American companies do about series they have no licensing over?

Fansubbing is illegal, yes, regardless of whether it's licensed or not, but unlicensed series would take the persuit of Japanese companies that own property of the series and I don't think that will happen.

They even said sales of anime in US are increasing, so I don't think they're concerned. If anything I think they're concerned about licensed series fansubs and the selling of bootleg DVD's.

[SirCanealot]

Fansubs are ruining the anime industry, just like movie/mp3 ripping is ruining the Music/Movie industries
Also:
"Fansubbing, when it started, was self limiting. It was done through VHS and you can not make a perfect copy, but you can rip a DVD and make a perfect copy."

.............. no.

[NeverRamza]

If the commercial companies can't even keep the DVD-rips and HK organized crime discs under control (which they can't), fansubs will keep remaining safe.

This concern has been going on since forever but the fansubs will keep coming and 20 groups will forever be subbing each latest Naruto episode as soon as they can till the end of time.

[LordBrian]

Originally Posted by jennwenn

I don't really care if fansubs disappear.

Fansubs wouldn't disappear. The only thing that has any chance of disappearing is the current distribution model.

[microlith]

because now we provide the original anime, without the censoring and editing that the american licensing companies distribute to the public

No you don't. You provide flaky translations of poorly twice compressed video without compensating the creators. And the american companies (the ones worth mentioning at least) distribute unedited stuff. Just not on TV, which is irrelevant, IMO, so long as an unedited version is available.

The only thing that has any chance of disappearing is the current distribution model.

Yep. Cause the other option is to completely undermine it and dump the industry. Unless you can provide a method that gets more fans to pay fair amounts (not $1, $2 per episode, I imagine costs are higher than that) for their shows, it's not going to change.

Or it could. With studios closing up shops and the supply of new anime shriveling up.

And personally I think purely digital distribution is ass. I like having my video on pressed media, with an insert, case, disc, and maybe box made for me. Which is what I get now.

[Ledgem]

I'm with microlith on this one. Fansubs have come a LONG way (I remember watching the first few Inuyasha episodes - half the resolution of current fansubs and twice the macro blocks), but then I sit down and watch a DVD (region 1, non-bootleg) and the quality simply can't compare. In the past, DVD quality wasn't such a big step up from VHS (except for added features) but all companies have improved the quality of their video, their subs - everything. Things have improved drastically; the companies listened to the fans. Fansubs were never started to replace retail anime, and it does sadden me that in recent times fansubbing is becoming something of a specialized warez "industry."

There's nothing to be proud of about piracy, of flaunting laws. I may be deluding myself, but I like to think that fansubbers aren't subbing to say "ha, Screw you, corporate Japan/America," but because they enjoy what they're doing. And from the people I've worked with and spoken to, while I can affirm that a few people like that do exist, the majority have the better frame of mind.