Madoka Magica - Episodes 11 & 12 Discussion/Poll - Final Episodes!

[Snork]

You have a point here. I explained Homura's miscalculation by the fact that Sayaka's a pretty random guest in the club, but from your words stems a big difference as well: in TL3 Sayaka most likely contracted together with Madoka or later, but not earlier. Homura's self-admitted carelessness may indeed derive from the fact that TL5 is the first time Sayaka jumped at the call first and presented another potential catalyst for Madoka's contracting (cruel-sounding or not, all of Homura's words about giving up on Sayaka were aimed at disabling that catalyst... But I wonder how much she herself expected Madoka to follow her advice).

[zRyuu]

Tbh, based on Sayaka's personality I highly doubt she would listen to Homura's advice anyways so I wouldn't be surprised if Homura gave up on her...

[mols]

Originally Posted by Snork

You have a point here. I explained Homura's miscalculation by the fact that Sayaka's a pretty random guest in the club, but from your words stems a big difference as well: in TL3 Sayaka most likely contracted together with Madoka or later, but not earlier. Homura's self-admitted carelessness may indeed derive from the fact that TL5 is the first time Sayaka jumped at the call first and presented another potential catalyst for Madoka's contracting (cruel-sounding or not, all of Homura's words about giving up on Sayaka were aimed at disabling that catalyst... But I wonder how much she herself expected Madoka to follow her advice).

Yep, exactly my thoughts... Also, I was wandering, what did Madoka wish for in the timeline where both of them are mahou shoujo? Both of them can't have wished for the cat's safety and the violinists recovery at the same time and on a whim...right?

Originally Posted by zRyuu

Tbh, based on Sayaka's personality I highly doubt she would listen to Homura's advice anyways so I wouldn't be surprised if Homura gave up on her...

Homura was willing to kill Sayaka before seeing Madoka suffering... So, if Homura had known that Sayaka was going to be a burden, she might have done something drastic to stop her from making a contract (send her to the hospital, kidnapping her...)

[Snork]

I assumed Madoka's wish was unchanged. Homura didn't prevent her from contracting so that part should have played out as usual. How exactly Sayaka got involved is still a mystery, but even if she and Madoka contracted at the same time, that doesn't mean the same moment and location.
Sayaka's wish is certainly not a whim per se (unlike Kyouko's, it actually ended well for the recipient himself), but the circumstances are unknown. If she didn't know Kyuubey through Madoka... Who knows, maybe Kamijou had a BSoD about his condition, and later she was talking to herself, wishing she could do something... And Kyuubey happened to pass by.
But the odds for her contracting still remain unpredictable in this case. From Homura's own experience, this girl was supposed to be a typical "muggle best friend". And yes, from the same experience she knew this girl is hard to convince once she holds an opinion of her own.

[mols]

Sigh, multiple timelines makes everything mor complex to understand...

anyway, shouldn't Homura have tried to save all girls more actively, they were friends in most timelines. Specially Mami, right? I know she showed some surpise when Mami was killed, but before that, dunno try to convince her to let her help...

There was really no possibility for a happy ending for her, maybe she event half expected to be doing more loops. If Madoka hadn't wish to become a "god", what would have happened? Homura might have won, and then what? become a witch, eventually, leaving Madoka alone and knowing that there was a wish granting creature right next to her... anyone would finish by wishing something...

Homura chose for the lat timeline the badass approach, tell them nothing a kill every witch herself. Good idea, maybe. But she did not have any advisors with her, they would have pointed out that showing some friendliness, or just speak more might have been useful to, for example, convince Mami to let her help in her battle (even if it might not work since they all saw her trying to kill QB). Sayaka might have considered taking her help, etc.

Anyway, I can't think how she would have succeeded without some kind of wish...

Another thing, if Madoka had become a witch, all the QB would have left Earth, since they got all the energy they needed...
What kind of wish might be necessary to exploit that knowledge?

[Thousand Mistress]

Originally Posted by mols

Sigh, multiple timelines makes everything mor complex to understand...

anyway, shouldn't Homura have tried to save all girls more actively, they were friends in most timelines. Specially Mami, right? I know she showed some surpise when Mami was killed, but before that, dunno try to convince her to let her help...

To be honest, Homura tried, but the girls didn't listen to her. Remember episode 10, that flashback before Sayaka became a witch? That's one time. Sayaka and Mami didn't believe Homura's pleas that Kyuubey was just tricking them, but I dunno about Madoka if she believes Homura or not. She's already helped a lot of times but it ultimately because, of course, Kyuubey.

There was really no possibility for a happy ending for her, maybe she event half expected to be doing more loops. If Madoka hadn't wish to become a "god", what would have happened? Homura might have won, and then what? become a witch, eventually, leaving Madoka alone and knowing that there was a wish granting creature right next to her... anyone would finish by wishing something...

We-ell...Madoka episodes 11 and 12 were a lose-lose situation for both Madoka and Homura. But Madoka's wish saved everything. She chose a wise wish, a wish that could change the lives of other Puella Magi...and of course, even if she's gone there's still two people who remember her. That's pretty much okay with me, as long as there's someone who still remembers her.

Homura chose for the lat timeline the badass approach, tell them nothing a kill every witch herself. Good idea, maybe. But she did not have any advisors with her, they would have pointed out that showing some friendliness, or just speak more might have been useful to, for example, convince Mami to let her help in her battle (even if it might not work since they all saw her trying to kill QB). Sayaka might have considered taking her help, etc.

Seeing that it was Homura's entire fault, we can't blame her though. Homura tried to stop Mami but of course she stood still and refused. We can't do anything either because at that time we still don't know what really happened, and the scriptwriter is the one who's doing everything. XD

Anyway, I can't think how she would have succeeded without some kind of wish...

Another thing, if Madoka had become a witch, all the QB would have left Earth, since they got all the energy they needed...
What kind of wish might be necessary to exploit that knowledge?

As far as the Puella Magi knew, they don't exactly know what the Incubators are really planning for the world, so the wish thing is out of question. Madoka's wish is enough, since it didn't only change the world but it also defeated Walpurgisnacht, which Homura can't defeat alone (even if she's second when it comes to Soul Gem power). Then again, the power of a Puella Magi is based on her wish. So yeah, I think that pretty much concludes things here.

[mols]

Originally Posted by Thousand Mistress

Seeing that it was Homura's entire fault, we can't blame her though. Homura tried to stop Mami but of course she stood still and refused. We can't do anything either because at that time we still don't know what really happened, and the scriptwriter is the one who's doing everything. XD



As far as the Puella Magi knew, they don't exactly know what the Incubators are really planning for the world, so the wish thing is out of question. Madoka's wish is enough, since it didn't only change the world but it also defeated Walpurgisnacht, which Homura can't defeat alone (even if she's second when it comes to Soul Gem power). Then again, the power of a Puella Magi is based on her wish. So yeah, I think that pretty much concludes things here.

Still, she should have tried to be more persuasive, even if it did not work in the past. I admit, it did not seem that Homura actually expected Mami to die. We see that she was surprised when the ribbons attaching her disappeared. Oh, well, can't save everyone. If I was her, I might have started considering another loop hahaha, you know, when you have different "quest targets " in a game, and you fail in a "secondary"one? I try to load a saved game and try again, just to get bonus points...

Homura knew. In one of the last timelines, when Madoka becomes a witch, QB says that they have enough energy and won't make any more mahou shoujo. He didn't say that in that way but something like: It is humanity's problem now since we got the energy we needed. implying QB would no longer interfere. After all, if they really needed humans he would desperately try to make contracts and stop Madoka's witch.

[Snork]

After Madoka became a witch, Incubators might really have more than enough energy to leave Earth - but Earth wouldn't be any better off by that time.
And even if someone used her wish to provide unlimited supply of clear energy for Incubators... First, this wish, voiced raw, has all the potential of a monkey paw; but even without it, I doubt such a wish would clean up the whole mess. The Incubators might have left, but who will guarantee they ever intended to (or better saying, were able to) remove the established system? Kyuubey might just say "OK, I don't need any more contracts, good-bye"... And leave behind a bunch of puella magi and witches. Either the former will eventually get wiped out (and witches will sow and harvest the grief till the end of times), or the latter will be killed, leaving puella magi without any recharging sourse, whereafter suicide will be the only thing they can do to protect the world. And even after that, demons may just show up, with nobody to restrain them anymore. Nah, it doesn't seem too good an ending to me...

[mols]

Originally Posted by Snork

After Madoka became a witch, Incubators might really have more than enough energy to leave Earth - but Earth wouldn't be any better off by that time.
And even if someone used her wish to provide unlimited supply of clear energy for Incubators... First, this wish, voiced raw, has all the potential of a monkey paw; but even without it, I doubt such a wish would clean up the whole mess. The Incubators might have left, but who will guarantee they ever intended to (or better saying, were able to) remove the established system? Kyuubey might just say "OK, I don't need any more contracts, good-bye"... And leave behind a bunch of puella magi and witches. Either the former will eventually get wiped out (and witches will sow and harvest the grief till the end of times), or the latter will be killed, leaving puella magi without any recharging sourse, whereafter suicide will be the only thing they can do to protect the world. And even after that, demons may just show up, with nobody to restrain them anymore. Nah, it doesn't seem too good an ending to me...

In fact, when Madoka transformed into a witch that would destroy the whole planet in a few days, QB did hint that they (QBs) had nothing elso to do with the Earth. And that that witch was the humans problem now, no longer theirs since they got the quota they needed.

So, yes, giving them energy will make them leave (if they did not intend to leavem then QB would have been worried about Madoka witch).

But as you said, that only prevents the creation of new mahou shoujos. nothing else. witches remain, the few mahou shoujo also. But, you have to take into account that witches reproduce via their familiars, while new mahou shoujos only after forming a contract. If we consider that the death rate of both is the same and constant, then obviously, the witches would end up winning and destroying everything.

The fact that Madoka had to wish to destroy the witches past and future is testimony of the robustness of the QBs system. witches are still beig produced, only to be destroyed by madoka before they are born...

damn QBs, I wonder where their planet is? Amazing technology they have, I have no doubt that humans with their capabilities could be eventually able to emulate their "magic".

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by mols

Still, she should have tried to be more persuasive, even if it did not work in the past. I admit, it did not seem that Homura actually expected Mami to die. We see that she was surprised when the ribbons attaching her disappeared. Oh, well, can't save everyone. If I was her, I might have started considering another loop hahaha, you know, when you have different "quest targets " in a game, and you fail in a "secondary"one? I try to load a saved game and try again, just to get bonus points...

Homura knew. In one of the last timelines, when Madoka becomes a witch, QB says that they have enough energy and won't make any more mahou shoujo. He didn't say that in that way but something like: It is humanity's problem now since we got the energy we needed. implying QB would no longer interfere. After all, if they really needed humans he would desperately try to make contracts and stop Madoka's witch.

On the subject of Mami, I still believe that Homura knew beforehand how the situation was going to play out; her warning to Mami sounded as though she had intimate knowledge of Charlotte, and perhaps more than that, had seen Mami be killed the exact same way in a past timeline (the 2nd or 4th, perhaps). Of course if that were so her being surprised by Mami's death becomes weird, but eh. And I know it has been said before, but she couldn't rewind time then, so the reloading a saved game metaphor doesn't really hold.

As far as Homura knowing the Incubators' plans goes, I'm pretty sure what Thousand Mistress was saying was that there is nobody still capable of making wishes with that knowledge. And you can hardly expect a good response from Homura going up to a random girl and telling them their plans in the hope that the random girl will wish against it, hence why the wish point is moot.

[mols]

Originally Posted by Akashin

On the subject of Mami, I still believe that Homura knew beforehand how the situation was going to play out; her warning to Mami sounded as though she had intimate knowledge of Charlotte, and perhaps more than that, had seen Mami be killed the exact same way in a past timeline (the 2nd or 4th, perhaps). Of course if that were so her being surprised by Mami's death becomes weird, but eh. And I know it has been said before, but she couldn't rewind time then, so the reloading a saved game metaphor doesn't really hold.

I am sure that she did not expect mami to actually die. She knew it was going to be difficult. I have to re watch the series, might start today, but I am certain she showed some sings of surprise when the ribbons disappeared.

I have a question, that seed, where did it come from? who planted it there? If I recall correctly seeds come from soul gems (so from magical girls) or from mature familiars. I assume it was a familiar maturing. Am I right?

Regarding Mami's death, I can clearly see her not dying from that encounter in previous timelines. Or not even encountering it. I have the feeling that some witches/familiar are more random than WN.

You are right, Homura did not have save points, she had to start the same level again. If she could have gone back in time at any moment, then the series would have been very very different indeed.

As far as Homura knowing the Incubators' plans goes, I'm pretty sure what Thousand Mistress was saying was that there is nobody still capable of making wishes with that knowledge. And you can hardly expect a good response from Homura going up to a random girl and telling them their plans in the hope that the random girl will wish against it, hence why the wish point is moot.

you are right of course, I did not mean Homura formulating such a wish and proposing it to someone. I meant us, the viewers, if we could in our free time formulate such a witch. For example if we worked at a Law firm, and were asked to formulate a draft of a contract in which that knowledge is used, minimizing the drawbacks, what would be the result??

Just wandering, but could a magical girl just cure an illness? After all Homura arranged her eyes...

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by mols

I am sure that she did not expect mami to actually die. She knew it was going to be difficult. I have to re watch the series, might start today, but I am certain she showed some sings of surprise when the ribbons disappeared.

Just rewatched the scene in question, and on this point: Homura is definitely surprised when the ribbons fade away. She lets out a sound of shock when they fade and she falls, and the way she says "Unbelievable" (according to my subs, at least) has some shock and disbelief to it. So I think Homura was definitely concerned about Mami's chances against Charlotte, but she honestly didn't think she would die.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by mols

I am sure that she did not expect mami to actually die. She knew it was going to be difficult. I have to re watch the series, might start today, but I am certain she showed some sings of surprise when the ribbons disappeared.

I have a question, that seed, where did it come from? who planted it there? If I recall correctly seeds come from soul gems (so from magical girls) or from mature familiars. I assume it was a familiar maturing. Am I right?

Regarding Mami's death, I can clearly see her not dying from that encounter in previous timelines. Or not even encountering it. I have the feeling that some witches/familiar are more random than WN.

You are right, Homura did not have save points, she had to start the same level again. If she could have gone back in time at any moment, then the series would have been very very different indeed.

I rewatched the scene in question myself and, as you and RadiantBeam say, she did indeed express a lot of surprise and didn't seem to expect Mami to die. My bad on that count. As for why the Grief Seed was there in the first place it isn't, but conspiracy theories range from, "It just was; roll with it," to, "Kyubey planted it there to get Mami killed." I don't suppose it matters all that much.

you are right of course, I did not mean Homura formulating such a wish and proposing it to someone. I meant us, the viewers, if we could in our free time formulate such a witch. For example if we worked at a Law firm, and were asked to formulate a draft of a contract in which that knowledge is used, minimizing the drawbacks, what would be the result??

Just wandering, but could a magical girl just cure an illness? After all Homura arranged her eyes...

A wish compact enough to completely minimize drawbacks isn't all that likely, but if it did, the end result probably wouldn't be all that different. After all we haven't really seen a case of the wish itself going awry (though such a case could very well exist), since it has mostly been a case of your own expectations of the wish coming back to bite you (Sayaka) or dealing with the repercussions of not understanding what you wished for (Kyoko). Perfectly planning out a wish might prevent the former to an extent, but in the end it wouldn't change a whole lot.

As for what magic can do, that seems to be a generally gray area. We've seen magic heal wounds and heal eyes, or even keep dead bodies warm, but the exact mechanics of the limits of what magic can accomplish aren't really addressed.

[Guernsey]

The ending of series is very impressive despite being relatively darker than most magical girl fare, it still ends in an awesome way. I admit I was expectinga downer ending but I am glad it ended the way it did.

[Jarmel]

One of the better endings to any series I've seen. It wrapped up the story and showed true character development. 10/10

[kitten320]

I'm confused about one thing... why did Sayaka still had to die? If witches don't exist then Madoka was suppoused to save her as everyone else, wasn't she?

Or everyone who had become a witch still had to die, only that they would not be depressed like they were in the past?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by kitten320

I'm confused about one thing... why did Sayaka still had to die? If witches don't exist then Madoka was suppoused to save her as everyone else, wasn't she?

Or everyone who had become a witch still had to die, only that they would not be depressed like they were in the past?

In the "new world", when magical girls spend all her magic or fall into despair, instead of becoming witches, they disappear (aka, they die).

Thus, Sayaka died due to the same reason she became a witch in episode 8, because she fell into despair and spent her magic recklessly when Kamijo and Hitomi got together.

Mami and Kyoko got "saved" because they died fighting witches, and since witches don't exist anymore, and never did, they never died. But those who became witches are doomed. It's just that instead of becoming witches, they just died.

[kitten320]

^Thought so.

Makes a lot of sence now, thanks for explanation^^

[Dark Wing]

okay I don't know if it even matters now but yesy just released these episodes yesterday.

[sa547]

There is a quote from J. Robert Oppenheimer that struck me while listening to Linkin Park's A Thousand Suns:

We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, "Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." I suppose we all thought that one way or another.

-J. Robert Oppenheimer

He described the terrifying power of the atomic bomb, and it dawned upon me that Madoka possessed, in her final form, incalculable amount of power to change the universe time and space, and rewrite all the rules of the game, and she unleashed this energy to destroy the final enemy -- her Witch form -- but at the cost of losing her corporeal existence.

If the radiance of a thousand suns
Were to burst at once into the sky
That would be like the splendor of the Mighty one...

Hence I could go further by trying to understand Madoka's ultimate self-sacrifice through these texts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavad_Gita
http://www.wikilivres.info/wiki/The_...i/Introduction
http://www.dmoz.org/Society/Religion...Bhagavad_Gita/