Shin Sekai Yori - Episode 18 Discussion / Poll

[Hitenma]

Originally Posted by deadsea

All this bakenezumi vs human remind me a litte of Shiki:corpse demon , who are the bad guys here?

Uhm no, in Shiki the two races are in conflict in nature, and they fight for survival.
In this, the two races are living in a somewhat harmony until someone becomes ambitious.
Not all queerats are bad but Yakomaru obviously is.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

What nutjobs? Just because they follow a system we don't agree with doesn't mean they're nutjobs... Obviously they're not doing it because they like it but because this was the best solution their ancestors could come up with and nobody has found anything better. Besides, the entire reason why Tomiko made Group 1 was to raise a new generation of leaders who can make the village evolve with time. (And perhaps find a new, better solution to their issues - I mean, not very long ago for a surprisingly long time, lobotomy was actually considered a pretty good idea, the best existing solution for problems science couldn't deal with otherwise. Fast-forward a few decades, and here we are being completely terrified at the very idea of it...)

And as for the bakenezumi... again, while there is obviously oppression going on it's not like the humans beat them and keep them on chains and work them until they can't move anymore and then kill and hunt them for fun or anything? Like, nobody goes "guys, I'm bored, let's go kill some bakenezumi"? In fact, if anyone remembers the previous episode, it's basically only Kiroumaru's colony cluster that provides labor force for humans, the rest is pretty much left alone and humans just keep tabs on them. Any punishment involving death also only occur on the occasion of breaking rules. Which I'm not saying is good or anything, and it's obviously pretty bad how humans look down on bakenezumi, but it's not like the bakenezumi live their lives being physically and mentally exploited and abused. (By humans, I should add. What they do to each other is another thing.)

Obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and in any case we haven't seen full picture yet (not even close) which is more complex than what it seems. But I still don't see how massacring a village-ful of people (some of whom may be legit dicks, but others are struggling to deal with a situation they inherited and most of whom are innocent) would help either in building sympathy and understanding for the bakenezumi or in handling the akki/gouma problem.

Couldn't agree more

I also agree with Ayra, everything happens now is because the human side is too soft.

One question for the ones who think this society is rotten or something:
Can you offer a better solution? Or just go "love and peace" and then every problem will disappear on its own.

[Arya]

Originally Posted by Diveman

I'm also very curious on how Yakomaru killed both Maria and Mamoru, maybe he caught them off guard? and also how did he got access to their powers.

My guess is that once he traced them he kept following them from afar. He is smart enough to know that his group wouldn't stand a chance against them. He waited for the right moment. Once Maria gave birth to their child maybe something went wrong and he acted. But I wonder how much time passed between Saki's lie and Yakomaru giving back the bones. Not enough to rise suspicious about Saki's story?
About the power I think it has already been mentioned that probably he "raised" their child.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

What nutjobs? Just because they follow a system we don't agree with doesn't mean they're nutjobs... Obviously they're not doing it because they like it but because this was the best solution their ancestors could come up with and nobody has found anything better. Besides, the entire reason why Tomiko made Group 1 was to raise a new generation of leaders who can make the village evolve with time. (And perhaps find a new, better solution to their issues - I mean, not very long ago for a surprisingly long time, lobotomy was actually considered a pretty good idea, the best existing solution for problems science couldn't deal with otherwise. Fast-forward a few decades, and here we are being completely terrified at the very idea of it...)

And as for the bakenezumi... again, while there is obviously oppression going on it's not like the humans beat them and keep them on chains and work them until they can't move anymore and then kill and hunt them for fun or anything? Like, nobody goes "guys, I'm bored, let's go kill some bakenezumi"? In fact, if anyone remembers the previous episode, it's basically only Kiroumaru's colony cluster that provides labor force for humans, the rest is pretty much left alone and humans just keep tabs on them. Any punishment involving death also only occur on the occasion of breaking serious rules/taboos. Which I'm not saying is good or anything, and it's obviously pretty bad how humans look down on bakenezumi, but it's not like the bakenezumi live their lives being physically and mentally exploited and abused. (By humans, I should add. What they do to each other is another thing.)

Obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and in any case we haven't seen full picture yet (not even close) which is more complex than what it seems. But I still don't see how massacring a village-ful of people (some of whom may be legit dicks, but others are struggling to deal with a situation they inherited and most of whom are innocent) would help either in building sympathy and understanding for the bakenezumi or in handling the akki/gouma problem.

The way everything is described, the death toll from the culling seems like a large portion of the minor population. Tomiko raising Group 1 has nothing to do with it. It's her failure to even regulate the purges that occur. Liking to do it or not doesn't change the effect of their actions.

You see how just and fair their inquisition trials are? Executing purely on suspicion...and wasn't it that that started this whole current affair anyway since Maria and Mamoru were kept away from the village as a result?


As for the Bakenezumi...no, I don't have any sympathy for them, but the system of human-Bakenezumi relations is the same as those in occupied territories of war. Maybe even lower because in modern times, even troops risk prosecution for murdering others. Here, it just takes someone like say, Satoru to vent his anger and no one will ask any questions.


Nope, massacring them isn't meant to be good for them obviously. It's simply a consequence that they brought on themselves. Just that as a side effect, a better bunch of rulers may come forth.

[Hitenma]

I don't think so.
The fact that the village is at peace for a long time means that their policy is right (right in a sense of efficiently protecting the society, not in a moral sense).
Things only got ugly when Tomiko tried to do something new.
She should have wiped out Saki's group right after they made the first trouble.
What I want to see now is whether Saki is worth so much sacrifice was made for her.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

As for the Bakenezumi...no, I don't have any sympathy for them, but the system of human-Bakenezumi relations is the same as those in occupied territories of war. Maybe even lower because in modern times, even troops risk prosecution for murdering others. Here, it just takes someone like say, Satoru to vent his anger and no one will ask any questions.

Because people don't know about what Satoru has done?
Kids are not supposed to be involved with the queerats. Satoru broke the adults' rules and you blame the adults?

[ChronoReverse]

No, if anything, the queerat attack is the consequence of trying to be more "progressive" in your line of thought.

If they had continued to properly ruthlessly weed out the potential problems, then this couldn't have happened.


Let's not try to push our own ideals here. They don't apply to a society like theirs. Think about how easily accidental injuries or even deaths come from simple shoves in real life. Now imagine if these simple shoves can blow away an entire building. And you can't block (cantus react badly with another cantus).

[Diveman]

what's weird is, we don't exactly know WHEN they found their bones, because if I recall correctly, they were gonna search for them after 3 days or something

[Hitenma]

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

No, if anything, the queerat attack is the consequence of trying to be more "progressive" in your line of thought.

If they had continued to properly ruthlessly weed out the potential problems, then this couldn't have happened.

Exactly.
The bald guy suggested that they should execute Yakomaru and his allies just based on suspicion only.
But everyone tried to be reasonable and allowed Yakomaru to explain himself.
Ironically, that's their downfall.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Diveman

what's weird is, we don't exactly know WHEN they found their bones, because if I recall correctly, they were gonna search for them after 3 days or something

Obviously the bones where not "produced" until some mouths after they reported not finding anything.

Originally Posted by Hitenma

The fact that the village is at peace for a long time means that their policy is right (right in a sense of efficiently protecting the society, not in a moral sense).
Things only got ugly when Tomiko tried to do something new.
She should have wiped out Saki's group right after they made the first trouble.
What I want to see now is whether Saki is worth so much sacrifice was made for her.

I'm sure when the idea of taking the precautions regarding their children was thought up the original minds behind the idea never attended it to be used so liberally. Even Tomiko stated that the board of education was being overly paranoid as time went one.

Also might I add that the group one experiment was doing just fine even taking into account what happened to Shun. The only reason things got out of hand was because the board tried to have Mamoru killed and Tomiko called them out on it too.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

The way everything is described, the death toll from the culling seems like a large portion of the minor population.

I don't remember any mention of an approximation of culled children vs the population, but it can't be that large, simply because otherwise the village would die out in the matter of a few generations...

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

You see how just and fair their inquisition trials are? Executing purely on suspicion...and wasn't it that that started this whole current affair anyway since Maria and Mamoru were kept away from the village as a result?

No, they don't execute purely on suspicion... they're looking for specific things, specific issues. The school system is full of constant personality/power assessments. But the thing is, they can't exactly wait until they have definite, 100% proof because by then it's way too late. As for Mamoru, the decision may have been hasty and based on paranoia more than anything else, but ultimately? they were right. Mamoru did lose control over his power as he panicked. This is why Saki, who had just recently had "the talk" with Tomiko, is lost when Maria tells her to say something in Mamoru's defense, because she realizes this. The only problem was that they botched the attack, presumably because they sent only one cat.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

As for the Bakenezumi...no, I don't have any sympathy for them,

I didn't mean the viewers but the humans in the story.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

but the system of human-Bakenezumi relations is the same as those in occupied territories of war. Maybe even lower because in modern times, even troops risk prosecution for murdering others. Here, it just takes someone like say, Satoru to vent his anger and no one will ask any questions.

Actually, even in modern times there are many, many places in the world where troops don't risk crap for not only murdering others but doing other horrible, sick things. (There are also places where a murderer who killed someone in their sleep can be regarded as a national hero in their country because of the ethnicity of the person they killed.) But even the people in the story don't randomly vent their anger on bakenezumi, so...

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Just that as a side effect, a better bunch of rulers may come forth.

But that bunch of rulers would be made up of survivors of a traumatic event, with a thirst for vengeance and distrust/hatred toward the bakenezumi. And the akki/gouma problem is still not solved, to put it lightly. :/

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Obviously the bones where not "produced" until some mouths after they reported not finding anything.

Interestingly, the book does say when the bones were delivered, the anime for some reason neglected to mention it. (This and Maria's wtf statement are either results of a brainfart or maybe they're doing something original.)

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

I'm sure when the idea of taking the precautions regarding their children was thought up the original minds behind the idea never attended it to be used so liberally. Even Tomiko stated that the board of education was being overly paranoid as time went one.

Did she? I think it was just Saki describing Hiromi as looking like she's always afraid of something. And anyway, I don't think we have any concrete info on the relative numbers of children killed.

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Also might I add that the group one experiment was doing just fine even taking into account what happened to Shun. The only reason things got out of hand was because the board tried to have Mamoru killed and Tomiko called them out on it too.

No, the only reason things got out of hand because they botched killing Mamoru. Tomiko said the same thing. Since he survived the attack, his lack of mental conditioning meant he could make decisions and do things a boy his age wouldn't have even thought of.

[deadsea]

Originally Posted by Hitenma

Uhm no, in Shiki the two races are in conflict in nature, and they fight for survival.
In this, the two races are living in a somewhat harmony until someone becomes ambitious.
Not all queerats are bad but Yakomaru obviously is.

That's not what I meant, I said a little. I meant humans acting brutally in Shiki nothing attitude "human" and society is rotten in Shinsekai killing their own children as Maria said. Also what's wrong with that Squealer want to change things, maybe not the proper way but humans have made things worse in their history.
They do not have to be a subordinate community, they deserve better, have been used for centuries and have lived in the shadow of humans.

[ChronoReverse]

The answer is the strong wins. Squealer may have the right to try to supplant the humans using any method they desire. But if you accept this, then the humans have all the right to exterminate them in return with full force.

If anything, the status quo before this is better than the wanton slaughter on both sides this has been leading to. The queerats were free to kill each other while the humans were stable and left things alone.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Hitenma

Uhm no, in Shiki the two races are in conflict in nature, and they fight for survival.
In this, the two races are living in a somewhat harmony until someone becomes ambitious.

Squeelers' personal ambitions aside, it's a fact that the bakenezumi were slaves to the PKers, so while you can kinda call it "harmony", I think it's understandable for the bakenezumi to want to rebel. Every sentient living creature strives for freedom no matter what. That's pretty much a fact of nature.


Squeeler might have a personal agenda, but that doesn't mean the bakenezumi are the bad guys here.

[ChronoReverse]

Most of the time the queerats were busy warring against each other. They take orders from the humans, but let's not pretend they were slaves who did everything for the humans. Most of the time they were left to their own devices.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

Most of the time the queerats were busy warring against each other. They take orders from the humans, but let's not pretend they were slaves who did everything for the humans. Most of the time they were left to their own devices.

They might have been given some leeway, but it doesn't change the fact they're slaves and you know it.

[ChronoReverse]

Not really. We like to throw the word slaves around lightly but "hollywood slavery" is something that should be mocked no matter where it's found.

The queerats were a subjugated race for sure and perhaps that's bad enough on its own but there's little reason to make it out to be worse than it is. The queerats themselves make actual slaves and/or brainwash the captives they take from the other tribes in their wars. That alone is more insidious if you are insistent on pushing your own ethics on them (I don't since it's their society and so they get to live with the consequences).

There's nothing "better" about the queerats overthrowing the humans except that they were more clever and stronger (assuming they succeed).

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

The queerats were a subjugated race for sure and perhaps that's bad enough on its own but there's little reason to make it out to be worse than it is.

Never did that. You said it yourself: they're a subjugated race, and that alone is reason enough for them to want to change that. It's a pretty natural response, that's all I'm saying.

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

There's nothing "better" about the queerats overthrowing the humans except that they were more clever and stronger (assuming they succeed).

Well, it would be better for them, wouldn't it? And that's all the the incentive they need.

[ChronoReverse]

I meant ethically as some have been propounding. You can just as easily say it's better for the humans if they didn't put up with any nonsense and just ruthlessly culled everything at the root. It's a debate ethically, but they'd definitely rather not be massacred I'd wager.


And I'm saying it's making it out to be worse than it is to automatically call the queerats slaves. They're under human rule but that's not nearly the same as slavery. So yes, you were the one who made it out to be worse than it is.

The fact that they'd want to come out of subjugation just like they'd want to be free of slavery really doesn't have anything to do with that.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

And I'm saying it's making it out to be worse than it is to automatically call the queerats slaves. They're under human rule but that's not nearly the same as slavery. So yes, you were the one who made it out to be worse than it is.

You're barking the wrong tree. All I mean by calling them slaves is that their lives are controlled by someone else. Like I said before, they might be given some leeway, but if their masters wanted to, they could die at any moment. They don't own their own lives.

This isn't ethical debate however. I'm just saying that it's natural for any sentient race to want to be free. That's all. Squeeler might be using this desire to further his own agenda, but that doesn't change the fact that the bakenezumi want to be free from the PKers.

[Hitenma]

Yes the squeerats are not bad guys.
And yes, it's understandable if they want to be free.
But is it wise to rebel?
A failed rebellion usually brings more harm than good.
Let's face it. There is no way in hell the squeerats can win.
They can cause serious damage to the human side, yes, but it only makes things worse for them when the human take revenge.
Basically it will cause a ton of meaningless deaths and nothing will really change (except their lives will become harsher than before for sure).
So is some illusion of freedom really worth it?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Hitenma

But is it wise to rebel?
So is some illusion of freedom really worth it?

Only those who don't have it can say for sure. For us, being free, or as free as we can be in our society, is something we take for granted. We don't know how much being free is worth, not matter how much we try to make it seem like we do.

That said, whether it's wise or not is besides the point imo. You gotta try. If you don't, nothing will change. That's also pretty much a fact of life.