Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[The American Average]

Originally Posted by georgedu

Heine wasn't disabled by Kira actually, Kira only took out one of his weapons(the electrical whip) and I'm pretty sure he had plenty of other weapons , Heines just a noob

Actually Heine's Gouf lost his right arm which is where all the weapons are located on the Gouf http://www.e-life.youthinks.com/pict...ouf_orange.jpg quite silly really putting all your weapons on one hand haven't they learned anything from Nicol's brave sacrifice in the Blitz to get this information.

[Aquaman OS]

Yeah but once again Durandal deciding to force the issue by Requiem blasting any nation that wouldn't accept the Destiny Plan, again gave him the right to oppose him as that meant Orb wouldn't be allowed to refuse despite them not wanting, or even needing the Plan.

[georgedu]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

He still "Damaged" him and people blame Kira for his death. And rather than argue I'll give them that, because his record is otherwise flawless.

How sad, Heine getting ambushed while ambushing
Btw, Heine did not attack Kira because his reasoning was something along the lines, "He is not an ally, he is an enemy to ZAFT."
It was just emotional, "What a cocky btch."
Just admit it, Heines a noob and was just to add on to Athruns "Nicole Moment".

Originally Posted by The American Average

Actually Heine's Gouf lost his right arm which is where all the weapons are located on the Gouf http://www.e-life.youthinks.com/pict...ouf_orange.jpg quite silly really putting all your weapons on one hand haven't they learned anything from Nicol's brave sacrifice in the Blitz to get this information.

Well, if thats the case, Heine is really stupid....... ambushing Kira with no weapons , what a idiot .

or I could have posted

Well I don't think Heines that stupid too ambush Kira the freaking legendary Freedom with no weapons ........except for Baba style or seismic toss

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by The American Average

Actually Heine's Gouf lost his right arm which is where all the weapons are located on the Gouf http://www.e-life.youthinks.com/pict...ouf_orange.jpg quite silly really putting all your weapons on one hand haven't they learned anything from Nicol's brave sacrifice in the Blitz to get this information.

I'm sure it wasn't mentioned hoe Nicol died only that he died as they made him get brain damage so Kira would look in the "right" for killing Nicol and that Nicol killed himself and not Kira now. Not the first time they changed things to make Kira look right when he's in the wrong.

[The American Average]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

I'm sure it wasn't mentioned hoe Nicol died only that he died as they made him get brain damage so Kira would look in the "right" for killing Nicol and that Nicol killed himself and not Kira now. Not the first time they changed things to make Kira look right when he's in the wrong.

I was mostly joking about the Blitz's design with all its weapons being in one hand I'm pretty sure there was a field report the Blitz Vs Strike battle. after all if they would have just give the Blitz a gun on its left hand he wouldn't (probably) have died.

[georgedu]

Originally Posted by The American Average

I was mostly joking about the Blitz's design with all its weapons being in one hand I'm pretty sure there was a field report the Blitz Vs Strike battle. after all if they would have just give the Blitz a gun on its left hand he wouldn't (probably) have died.

Nah, either way he would have charged in to save Athrun.

[Aquaman OS]

So he's in the wrong for killing Nicol despite him being an enemy trying to sink his ship now?

[I Fail at Life]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

So he's in the wrong for killing Nicol despite him being an enemy trying to sink his ship now?

You took his bait. This is what he wanted you to do. He said that to get a reaction out of people.

[georgedu]

Originally Posted by I Fail at Life

You took his bait. This is what he wanted you to do. He said that to get a reaction out of people.

I dont understand your post..........who's bait?
fyi , kira's no kill policy was not established yet when he killed Nicole.
Clearly, Nicole attacked first, and Kira self-defensed.

[I Fail at Life]

Originally Posted by georgedu

I dont understand your post..........who's bait?
fyi , kira's no kill policy was not established yet when he killed Nicole.
Clearly, Nicole attacked first, and Kira self-defensed.

I'm talking about Destined_Fate's post; assuming that's who he was referring to.

[Aquaman OS]

DF hasn't responded to a single thing I've said anyway, even though I twice pointed out something he was saying was wrong, so either's he's blocking me, or ignoring me.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

It's WELL established in series, and in Data books that his no casualty rate is near perfect.

There are data books for SEED/Destiny?

[Skye629]

This is my last post to you on this subject for now, as you clearly failed to acknowledge/ignored my last paragraph, and others, which is quite true on all accounts (the one about agreeing to disagree, you messing up the possible insiders on armory 1 with ORB, ignoring the comment I made on you calling me arrogant, without even quoting the part which made you think so, completely ignoring others inputs, such as aquaman's, me DIRECTLY asking you a question about supporting the Destiny Plan etc etc etc. The list can go on and on. While I made a response, and spent my time, on EVERY paragraph you made, no matter how small it was or how much I disagreed with it.)

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Kira rendering mobile suits inoperable doesn't mean his hands are clean when another person finishes the job in his stead. People that go to war and are afraid to pull the trigger aren't better than those that do, Kira caused a lot of deaths as he left them unable to defend themselves thus making them easy pickings. Or are you saying that ORB didn't shoot down those Kira disabled in Destiny? They would be foolish for not, Kira cannot claim innocence for their deaths.

I never said his hands were clean O-o. Stop giving responses to things I never said or implied. If you are interpreting it as such then thats nobodies comphrehension problem but your own (or you could ask me for further clarification). EVERY SINGLE GUNDAM PILOT IN HISTORY HAVE BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS AND ARE KILLERS = FACTS WE ALL KNOW (though some pro kira morons deny this, I am by far not one of them)

Yes, Kira was in fact defending a corrupt ORB. Whether Cagalli was successful or not he was already going to fight ZAFT/Feds. He only cared that they were invading ORB and didn't care at all that ORB brought it upon their selves because of their poor choices.

Of course he didn't care about the Seirans bringing it on ORB, they knew what the Seirans were like, and their answer for handing over Djibril was predictable. By the time they got there, there was nothing else they could do, the milk had already been spilled, as such the priorities was the protection of Orb (which also involves capturing and handing over the cause of the problems, Djibril). And Im not going to explain Kira's timing again, something like this should be very obvious if you pay attention to order of events

False, Djibril was not going to escape if ZAFT/Feds weren't being held back by ORB/Cagalli's Renegade Faction/Kira Faction. Hell the Archangel stopped the Minerva from making any real ground after it appeared. Fact of the matter is that Djibril escaped because of Kira's interference, that cannot be refuted. Shinn and Rey were busy trying to take out Kira, furthermore Kira's Strike Freedom had Beam Spam it refused to use. Kira should have at least tried as he was the only one in that area that had a chance of stopping Djibril as the Freedom was a true long range mecha while the Legend relied more upon its DRAGOONs which only worked in space.

The Minerva only appeared/advanced BECAUSE of the AA showing up, the other forces did not want them hogging all the glory/limelight (as noted in some past posts). Please stop saying that I am refuting Djibrils escape, I keep reiterating that he did escape as a side effect of Kira and Co. coming in. SFs beam spam is cut in half due to the loss of DRAGOONs, and we had no idea where the battle between the 4 MS was taking place in relation to where the shuttle was, they could have been on the other side of the island and out of range for all we know. The Legend CAN fire all of its DRAGOONS on earth (by flipping them forward and firing without launching unlike the SF. The problem was that if either turned their backs for a second to fire all of their guns at the shuttle, the other one would have came in for the killing blow, so that was out of the options

Your explanation was flawed, Cagalli didn't once try to explain the situation and went, like Kira, for a Shoot First and Don't Explain Yourself Ever stance.

I already explained WHY she had to shoot first before talking. Go ahead and keep ignoring it

I already explained what she would have done. She should have contacted ZAFT/Feds on a Global Channel the moment she could and explain the situation about ORB and her plans to retake ORB from Yuna. Instead she decided that talking is dumb and came in guns ablazing than she was wondering why after she regained power that ZAFT/Feds didn't want anything to do with her as she was firing at them still.

You gave an explanation, but by no means would they have listened to her, guns out or not. While it may APPEAR better, in the end ZAFT would have kept attacking due to the field commander and his orders. She never decided talking was dumb, as she DID make the effort to bring around talks after arriving at the command center.

Just because she goes on a global channel, means that they will listen to her? Nope, nobody with a brain would believe such a thing like "oh hey stop fighting, im going to go take over authority in ORB, then capture Djibril and give him to you" without some sort of proof. For all they know: 1. She may not be who she claims to be 2. Could just be a ploy to buy time and regroup. Also this was all depending on the decision that they would even hear her out. And she did attempt to make contact, after she got to the command center so she could issue all of her different orders

Yes Kira DOES have a God Complex. He believes what he wants is always right and nevre once apologizes in Destiny for all the BS he pulls. He even had Athrun hating on him because of his dumb actions after he became a rogue faction and decided to play God by attacking both sides for being guilty as they weren't listening to him and only him.

Here we go again, for the upteenth time. Just go ahead and say we all have a god complex, since your definition of it encompasses anyone on earth who holds a belief or opinion

As for him attacking both sides. He DID NOT ASK. He made a THREAT, "Both of you stop fighting or me and the AA will wreck both of you until you are incapable of firing a shot". The rationale was to make them see how POINTLESS the fighting was (which it was, as most wars and fights are). This is in no way overconfidence/overestimating their abilities, as he and the AA clearly had the to power to do so, as they clearly demonstrated after Yuna had them continue the battle. End result? Less deaths than what would have happened if they stood by and let the Minerva wipe the floor with the AF fleet with its Tanhauser (which I would have preferred, though for the storys sake the directors had to prolong everything and satisfy the Kiratards.......)


ORB was only in that state because of Yuna, Cagalli, and Kira's actions that spilled over finally at the Battle of ORB. Furthermore the Archangel was far from completely wrecked and Lacus had allies in space as well as the means to get them back into space with her vast resources. They quite simply didn't want to stop Djibril and were more concerned about taking our Durandal even if it meant letting Djibril run free to murder thousands more. Hell Kira doesn't even feel remorseful for Djibril's escape and never expresses a desire to stop Djibril.

Orb would have been wrecked regardless due to Seirans actions regardless of Kira and them showing up. Heck Kira and Co. actually prevented the worse of the damage, as ORB would have been completely overrun without them showing up. To make this clear.

Scenario 1: Does not show up. Seirans led ORB completely overrun within hours, thus ending ORB as a nation. as nobody would support a regime that housed Djibril. Djibril does escape due to his plans being unhindered OR ZAFT manages to advance fast enough without the Minerva's (in the rear) help to take Djibril (alive or dead). This is the WHAT IF scenario, as it never happened and there is nothing to support any outcome aside from one's opinion, or the producers/directors put their foot down on such a scenario

Scenario 2: What was presented in the show. Invasion commences, Minerva held in reserve at rear. Initial ZAFT overwhelming. Cagalli sorties, stalls battle and have Yuna give her back authority (now new Orb leadership under Cagalli, past corrupt Seiran regime done). Shinn engages Cagalli and nearly kills her. Kira intervenes and AA makes its presence known. Minerva advances to engage the Freedom and AA with its suits. Cagalli retreats to command center to take command of the situation. During this time orders are issued for island/nation?wide search of Djibril. Attempts made to call for ceasefire due to new leadership. ZAFT does not buy anything (naturally, as they have no proof that Cagalli is legit and for all they know its a Seiran trick to get Djibril out) and continues attack (completely sound choice actually regardless of Durandals future/current plans for ORB). Following this Seiran loyalists kills a search party/whoever they were, and fakes that they have not found Djibril in X sector. Djibril decides to leave alone since the Seirans have been delayed, since all they needed to continue the war was him (correct). Fighting continues outside as search for Djibril continues. Cagalli continues to try to pull ORB together and demands results for Djibril search. Shuttle begins to launch much to everyone's shock. Djibril launches. Kira, Shinn, AA, and Minerva at undefined distance/location from launch, though close enough to determine its a shuttle heading for space. MS pilots engaged as well as the ship with the AA, so they launch the only option they have: Luna (WTF? they should honestly have more than 3 suits): She fails and Djibril gets away from all these events tieing together and plot armor (to go to space). Following this the AA sink ZAFTS command sub, Talia takes command and calls retreat, ending battle. Orb is in ruins, but not under ZAFT control

Same result: Orb is a mess (though one outcome more damaging than the other)>

Here is one of my biggest gripes I just thought of with blame going on both ZAFT and Cagalli: ZAFT had ships in orbit above ORB dropping in MS units, HOW did they NOT intercept Djibrils shuttle? And didn't ORB have a spacefleet? Where the f*** were they? (since they were Kusanagi's they may have been partstored on earth, but that sorta defeats their purpose)


Thus you give them an excuse for not even trying because "someone else" might be able to do the job. That's sad. If everyone lived by that saying than no one would ever go after murderers or the such as "someone else" might do it instead so they don't have to left a finger. Which is EXACTLY the stance Kira and co. took which shows they didn't care at all about what Djibril was doing as he wasn't worth their time and those he later kills clearly weren't worth the energy to save hence why Kira and co. sat on their rears the entire time.

BS, there are people whose JOBS are to hunt the bad guys down. YOUR idea is sad as its completely untrue. Theres a reason there are jobs for the police/military/homeland security etc. THATS why we dont need to lift a finger (unless the situation calls for it. eg. a situation occurs where you can personally intervene, for better or worse). ZAFT at this point was the sole power in the world, being the leader of the new Alliance. Also it was ZAFT who promised to bring justice on Djibril and Logos

Kira decided he was going to kill Durandal and had planned to take him out personally for some time. The only reason Kira oppossed Durandal early on is because he didn't agree with Durandal. It's only later that Durandal is made true evil and does evil things so that Kira is now "justified" in trying to take out Durandal from the start.

The only justification Kira ever needed what that he tried to kill Lacus, him, and all the kids/other people present at the assassination attempt. The Destiny plan only added more fuel to the fire since he did not agree to those methods (which are by all means crazy)

You're putting too little. Djibril was a main player in Destiny and all the blood on his hands after the Battle of ORB are on Kira and co's hands too as they allowed him to escape and let him do as he wanted until the Alliance finally hunted him down.

Im putting little emphasis on him because he was NEVER the main focus of my debate with you, which got sidetracked.

Blood was on EVERYONES hands for getting into the damn war in the first place. Durandal for orchrestrating it, Djibril for the actions he took following Break the World (and his Logos ideals), ORB for throwing in their lot to a side, and later harboring Djibril, Kira and Co. for adding unecessary mayhem to an already chaotic war. EVERY one of them have BLOODY HANDS. Dont you ever think I support one side or another. They are all in the wrong as far as I am concerned

Oh btw thanks for the debate, I was able to apply alot of what I learned is Psychology to this

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by monster

There are data books for SEED/Destiny?

Where do you think the mech lineart comes from?

[monster]

Originally Posted by Skye629

Here is one of my biggest gripes I just thought of with blame going on both ZAFT and Cagalli: ZAFT had ships in orbit above ORB dropping in MS units, HOW did they NOT intercept Djibrils shuttle? And didn't ORB have a spacefleet? Where the f*** were they? (since they were Kusanagi's they may have been partstored on earth, but that sorta defeats their purpose)

The ZAFT ships in space that were near Orb were disabled by the Strike Freedom. Whatever force Orb had in space at the time might be under the control of the Sahaku, and they never showed up, even when Orb was under attack in SEED.

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Where do you think the mech lineart comes from?

Websites and bundled with the models.

[Aquaman OS]

No they have books and stuff with lineart and interviews and stuff in them. They have them for just about every anime.

This is also probably why all the Japanese fans even the ones that think Kira and Lacus should burn in hell accept it as fact the Durandal sent the hit squad, because the named squad members profile in the books and on the official website says outright that he and his team were Zaft special forces.

[Skye629]

Originally Posted by monster

The ZAFT ships in space that were near Orb were disabled by the Strike Freedom. Whatever force Orb had in space at the time might be under the control of the Sahaku, and they never showed up, even when Orb was under attack in SEED. Websites and bundled with the models.

Who said/what proof is there SF disabled them? For all we know they flew right past (dont forget, Kira had Lacus in tow at the time, I hardly doubt he would leave her alone to take out a fleet)

The ORB fleet is debatable, as they were never shown till the very end. But either way their use was BS (sitting in space doing nothing, sitting in drydock on earth, or MAYBE even helping Djibril escape, not likely, as the ZAFT fleet was right there)

[Skye629]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

No they have books and stuff with lineart and interviews and stuff in them. They have them for just about every anime.

This is also probably why all the Japanese fans even the ones that think Kira and Lacus should burn in hell accept it as fact the Durandal sent the hit squad, because the named squad members profile in the books and on the official website says outright that he and his team were Zaft special forces.

Its obvious he sent the hit squad....who else could authorize that many suits sneaking out to kill a single girl? And they had new amphibious MS, and on top of this they killed themselves, ALL of them, to preserve the secret

BS that those Kira disabled mostly got away, even if they were not specifically targeted, crossfire from the huge battles they were in, or falling from the sky, or sinking into the ocean, would have DEFINITELY killed some/most.

The only reason Kira took that "no kill shot" BS was just to relieve a little of his conscience, though deep down, he knows hes a killer

Its the exact same reason guns were taken over swords (besides their effectiveness), so that way you did not have to sink steel into someones gut personally and remember that feeling of your blade twisting in them and the guilt (while with guns all you had to do was pull a little trigger and watch/not watch)

Edit: F*** double posted, sorry, merge these posts or something

[Aquaman OS]

It's true though. At least 7/8 people Kira disabled live. We see this happen on screen.

Also it has nothing to do with his consience, but because after Nicol he decided even enemy soldiers didn't deserve to die, so he'd do his best to save them.

[Skye629]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

It's true though. At least 7/8 people Kira disabled live. We see this happen on screen.

But we DONT though, we only see their heads and appendages getting blown off, what about what happens to them AFTERWARDS? They obviously did NOT devote any screen time to this at all. Other than that one guy he saved at Alaska (who still died due to the Cyclops blast)

Hes just using his method as a pain/conscience relief drug, thats about it

If you can provide official casualty numbers from an official japanese source then I will believe you. Right now I find it hard to realistically comprehend how 7/8 of the people he disable further survive on a chaotic battlefield