2007-10-05, 10:17 | Link #261 | ||
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I stand by my opinion that rank isn't everything, while it certainly can be indicative. The intention of the writers was obviously to downplay individual power and promote training, teamwork and hot blood, because it is the only way to introduce other main characters without going DBZ with the powerups. Too bad they totally botched the job. Also, the only thing you have to oppose the headmaster scenario is a guess and you still treat that as fact? That sounds like denial, are you sure you're not the one who got the wrong lessons from the show? Quote:
I have to point once again that the only thing Jail has going for him in StrikerS is the AMF. Without that, he gets wiped out as soon as Fate can find him. It's a pure technological breakthrough situation, kinda like when UK used the radar in WW2, or US the atom bomb, or Germany started using jet planes (too late but they had awesome efficiency). The problem of Midchilda is they should have been the first to discover it and find countermeasures, but they had leaders who thought that fighting tanks with spearmen was cool and put research at 0%. Jail was a moron to just attempt terrorism with his technologicaly advanced but still small army. He could have done more damage, but he was doomed from the start, once the mid army could overwhelm his hightech gizmos with massive firepower and flood of experienced powerful mages working on dangerous planetes, like Fate (I assume she isn't the only investigator around, heh). Such technology would have been useful to a standing army with an existing powerbase. On the other hand, if he just wanted to shake Mid up to point out its weaknesses, by sacrificing himself in the process, he reached his goal. He may be a saint. |
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2007-10-05, 11:57 | Link #262 | ||||||
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Who happened to be inferior in rank. From a Suspension of Disbelief viewpoint, that's what happened to them.
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2) Reinforce gave herself up, remember? They didn't stand a chance right up until the moment that Reinforce got convinced by Hayate inside. Only then could Nanoha even up the inner space enough to help Fate get out. The Defense Program, which is only a fraction of the power, was only disrupted by the combined efforts. Without the good old Arc, it was pretty damn clear who would have won in the end. Quote:
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2007-10-05, 13:17 | Link #263 | ||||||
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After defeats at the HQs and the way the Cradle battles went, I would hope that Hayate realizes that something is fundamentally wrong with the TSAB. Even more difficult would be to admit that she was given command of her dream unit by TSAB but she didn't possess the skills, knowledge or experience to command it properly. She may even have begun to recognize that subconsciously at least given the way she pretty much completed ceded command to her subordinates during the Cradle battle. Hayate: "I don't want anyone else in the world to be sad or have regrets like that. I'll use my life for that purpose." Hayate to herself said that in episode 13. It really is the compelling reason that she should want to become an exchange officer and learn everything she can so she can return to the TSAB and help reform it for sake of the TSAB and the people it protects. Hayate was raised on Earth and was taught Earth history so naturally an Earth military would be the first place to look. Given that the same writers would be writing for any non-Earth military, there is no better place for her to gain the skills, knowledge and experience than an Earth military. It seems like it would be best to get her to avoid the JSDF despite the shared language. She should have learned at least some English through high school so it may just be best to send her to the US Army. After she's completed OCS, a tour in Iraq as an infantry officer could help her a lot. When she came back, she'd come back not only with US Army doctrine and training but also with practical experience using and employing conventional weapons. Also, getting a lot of trigger time, and maybe even some combat shooting, with a normal rifle so that she has an intuitive grasp of marksmanship couldn't hurt her magical aim. Officially, she could be promoting a "mutual" understanding of how each military operates Quote:
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To be fair myself, Nanoha as a TSAB instructor probably isn't doing any more damage to TSAB training than a different TSAB instructor would do in her place. For that same reason, putting her behind a desk in charge of training policy probably wouldn't change anything. Although, if Hayate ever got her act together the influence of that kind of position could help, assuming Nanoha is able to swallow her pride as well.
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2007-10-05, 13:41 | Link #264 | |||
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2007-10-05, 14:57 | Link #266 |
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If by "nuke" you mean the arc-en-ciel, one method would be to shoot their ships out of space the moment they drop into normal space. Planetary defense guns with enough range could force TSAB ships to arrive outside arc range. They can then be engaged by a space fleet.
Beyond the one main cannon of the XV-class, we have no information on the TSAB fleet's anti-ship capability. But a properly designed fleet of ships could at least give them a hard time. By "properly designed", I mean ships designed for deep-space warfare. Where weapon and sensor ranges are usually measured by light-seconds for short-range and light-minutes for long-range. The arc is unsuitable for such combat. It's too slow-firing and the AoE is too limited. In open space, fleet ships can be seperated by several hundred km while in "close" formation. |
2007-10-05, 16:31 | Link #267 | |||||||
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And yeah the Arc beam we see fired is decidedly slower then light so it’s not going to do crap at long range. Plus even the slow ass Space Shuttle can cross 100 kilometers in under 10 seconds and any sci-fi spaceship worth it’s salt is going to be faster then that so the AOE bit is also useless. If the TSAB ships only have those cannons then missile jump out as an instant option they'd always hit unless ships could outrun and had a large head start and they'd have effectively unlimited range in space they wouldn't even need warheads impacting at dozen of kilometers per second the weapon itself would have more energy then if it where made of solid TNT, if not higher. A big ship that's basically just an engine and bridge with ballistic missile sized weapons strapped all over that it just punts out at the enemy then then flies away could probably give the TSAB major headaches. That said this isn't how I like to write space combat, illogical or not I like space opera so battles tend to involve getting closer then really makes sense and engaging in turning fights at said close ranges while absorbing more fire then any realistic ship could. This gets back to the whole “realism often isn’t that fun” thing, sure shooting the other guy with a laser cannon from 1 million kilometers and killing him in one hit is realistic, but not exactly exciting to read about. That said I don't try and argue my system is likely or even possible, but I do try to justify it in universe at least, usually via jamming/cloaking so intense it makes engagements at distances longer then point blank range futile (the Gundam solution basically). This is a "artistic" choice though and I'd never argue it makes sense from a realism point of view. Another option for dealing with this is if one is attacking is to just engage close to TSAB population centers or troops. It would be funny to see how long they stay in power if their standard tactic when a city or major army unit is lost or under threat is to destroy it from orbit. Quote:
If you want to be really mean you could load it up with a dozen tactical cruise missiles, or since this wouldn’t really BE a B-52 a couple dozen shorter ranged tactical missiles say a 300 Kilometer range should be more then enough and it could probably carry at least 2 dozen of the things. Make the missiles stealthy for extra pwnage. Quote:
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The Allies weren't idiots they targeted supply lines heavily trains, trucks, barges anything moving in the rear areas was strafed and bombed mercilessly. P-51 escorts had standing orders to use remaining fuel and ammo for that mission and we have hours and hours of gun camera footage of them flying along the tops of trains raking them with 50 caliber machine guns or blowing up a half dozen transport aircraft on the ground. Those efforts did more to damage German army formations then the often only marginally effective close air support ever did. It’s hard to fault the logistic train for not supplying its troops when said train is being shot apart and systematically dismantled from the air. Quote:
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Also TSAB is deficient in nearly all of areas aside from light infantry/Special Forces and even those are often used somewhat poorly. Quote:
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2007-10-05, 22:21 | Link #268 | ||||||
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The same lack of thought resulted in the inefficiency of the German economy's mobilization efforts. Under military direction, there was no central planning, extreme disorganization, no move towards rationalization and a correspondingly low weapon production. Quote:
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2007-10-06, 00:06 | Link #269 | |||||||
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Large numbers of mages don’t even appear to be able to move at the fairly sedate pace of the Aces and often seem to just hover about in combat. Quote:
If you're really worried you could just using something like the purposed B-1R, speed of mach 2.2 with a payload of over 100,000 pounds including as many as 140+ SBDs and air to air missiles plus an AESA radar. Heh that'll give the phrase “Getting boned” a whole new meaning. Quote:
It’s made all the worse by the fact Hitler fancied himself to be a bit of a general and would micro manage things at times and rarely to Germanys benefit Quote:
Further that quote is misleading, yes Britain out produced Germany in the first three years, but it was also running balls to the wall and overdriving its economy because it had lost a huge percentage of its entire force of heavy equipment during the battle of France and was being bombed night and day. Germany meanwhile still had a large and intact army that had just crushed all opposition with ease and was unmolested aside from the occasional token nuisance air raid. In hindsight they should have been going balls out in production and development to build up a reverse and get ahead, but at the time they were the rulers of Europe and they had a major case of victory disease. They expected what they had to be more then enough for sometime and production wasn’t really ramped up or development accelerated until the Russian started to field large numbers of highly effective medium and heavy tanks in the form of the T-34 and KV-1. That said in production and war economy planning Germany indeed had a poorly thought out plan it built too many different things, didn’t ration until it was far too late, and it’s civilian leadership was not nearly as effective as the military. Further due to the style of government people with clout could exert undue influence on what was given funding, even during the war we see examples of infighting and pork being indulged in by competing factions and powerful people, but again this is the civilian side their was little the military could do but implore them to try and produce more. Quote:
I’ve worked in shipping before, and yes military logistic is different but even so large parts of the process are very similar (and indeed the modern army has skimmed many things from civilians in this regard) and while you need a few skilled people to oversee the process 99% of the actual work can be done effectively by minimum wage expendables with a few weeks of training. We even handled hazardous stuff like chemicals, oxidizers, flammables, vehicle parts, and small arms ammunition so the cargo isn’t even that different in many cases. It really isn’t like combat where even low level leaders need to know allot of stuff and might well have to employ it. Most logistic work happens behind the lines and under supervision and in communications with other units and leaders (by necessity you can’t arrange for supplies if you can’t talk to anyone!). A Sergeant taking small arms fire probably won’t have time or even the means to ask his platoon leader what to do and will need to take charge and deal the problem himself, but some clerk that gets a truck load of widget B instead of widget A can probably just pick up the phone and ask where his widgets are and what he should do with these. Now he can’t be ragingly incompetent obviously, but at the same time given he’s so much more likely to have time and be in communications with more skilled supervisors he doesn’t need to know as much either. Also when they HAD stuff to issue and a way to move it, it tended to find its way to the troops in a fairly timely fashion. They might not have focused on it as much as they should, but until the allies really started targeting their logistic train on mass it worked for the most part. You can also look at Britain and the US in this regard despite all efforts during the earlier war Britain came awfully close to starving due to U-boats. The logistic train wasn’t poorly planned or laid it, it was just being killed before it could get the stuff there! Quote:
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2007-10-06, 04:37 | Link #270 | |||||||
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You might also remember, that sometimes, the Fuhrer was right. The Fuhrer was a lot more enthusiastic about hitting France than his generals (and from the POV of Results at least it ended up about as well as anyone could have hoped), and it has at least been argued that his Stand-Fast order was the thing that kept Moscow 1941 from escalating into a German rout altogether. Quote:
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Don't blame the mud or the winter or even the distance. A military logistician has to work with such facts of life, not hope they don't exist. |
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2007-10-06, 09:26 | Link #271 | |||
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Whatever the outcome of the military campaigns, the high levels of military demand and of government spending made it necessary to convert the economy to war, on Hitler's instructions, as fully as possible from the start. There was no major turning-point in the German war effort in the winter of 1942/2, or later in 1943. The biggest increases in taxation came between 1939 and 1941. The fastest growth of military spending came in the same two years. Personal consumption and civilian output also fell faster during 1939-41 than at any other time in the war, and the mobilization and redistribution of the work-force was carried out largely before the spring of 1942, not thereafter. German military and civilian expediture, 1938/9 - 1943/4 (RM '000m., current prices) Military expenditure: 17.2 (1938/9), 38.0 (1939/40), 55.9 (1940/41), 72.3 (1941/42), 86.2 (1942/43), 99.4 (1943/44) Civilian expenditure: 22.2 (1938/9), 20.0 (1939/40), 24.1 (1940/41), 37.8 (1942/43), 30.6 (1943/44) Total state expenditure: 39.4 (1938/9), 58.0 (1939/40), 80.0 (1940/41), 100.5 (1941/42), 124.0 (1942/43), 130.0 (1943/44) GNP: 115 (1938/9), 129 (1939/40), 132 (1940/41), 137 (1941/42), 143 (1942/43), 160 (1943/44) Consumption 1938-1944 German consumer expenditure (RM '000m., 1939 prices): 70 (1938), 71.0 (1939), 66.0 (1940), 62.0 (1941), 57.0 (1942), 57.0 (1943), 53.0 (1944) Index of real per capita consumption in Greater Germany: 100.0 (1938), 98.0 (1940), 80.2 (1941), 74.4 (1942), 68.0 (1943), 67.2 (1944) Index of real per capita consumption in Britain: 100.0 (1938), 97.2 (1939), 89.7 (1940), 87.1 (1941), 86.6 (1942), 85.5 (1943), 88.2 (1944) Industrial labor force working on orders for the Wehrmacht 1939-1943 (%) All Industry: 21.9% (1939), 50.2% (1940), 54.5% (1941), 56.7% (1942), 61.0% (1943) Quote:
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2007-10-06, 11:49 | Link #272 | |
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Don't forget the Greeks. If the Germans hadn't delayed Barbarossa in order to prosecute the Greek campaign, they might have taken Moscow before winter set in, with disastrous results to the Russians. It was a close-run thing as it was, so another month may well have proven decisive. And now we're totally off topic, guys. We haven't seen ANY sign that the TSAB has any sort of logistics whatsoever. No supply officers. No supply units. No supply vehicles. (Shari almost qualifies, but she's the only one of the Long Arch staff that's in maintenance - everyone else seems to be an officer or a bridge bunny.) The only evidence we have that there's any supply effort going on at all is that the characters are regularly supplied with food (in copious quantities - damn, if being a magician makes you eat like that, it's a good thing Nanoha's folks ran a restaurant!) and ammunition. We don't even see a cook, though as a SF show, maybe there ain't one? Obviously doing a stint with the SEALs or Delta Force would do any of the characters a world of good. The only problem with exchange is that it may well have a negative effect if the characters look at, well, Japan. Let's be honest, that's the first military that the girls would have looked at, because it's closest and they can actually talk to people in it. Sure, we can view the JSDF with some contempt, being Americans, but we've already established that the writers aren't up on their militaries to start with - it's probable that they simply don't understand the difference in doctrine and quality. And it's entirely possible that one of 'em took some time off, went home, chatted up the local military folks and grabbed some of their manuals, and came back saying "yeah, they do things pretty much the same way we do." (What, like the JSDF folk are going to say "now, what you really need to do is talk to the damned Americans"? Some of 'em, maybe, but they have their pride too.) That works for Hayate - we can fault her command style, but hey, she's not doing bad on the admin end, especially for freakin' 19! That works for Fate - she's a lone wolf investigator type anyway. But it doesn't work for Nanoha, not if she's really as concerned about doing a good job as she's portrayed as doing in the show! It's not like she can learn much about combat instruction from the JSDF, after all, and she's the one that would have been likely to crack open the history book and notice "hey, wait a minute, we LOST that war." Again, writer myopia... |
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2007-10-06, 13:23 | Link #273 | |||||
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The campaign planning for Operation Barbarossa was full of that kind of wishful thinking like the highly optimistic assumption that the Red Army's capacity for resistance would be completely destroyed west of the line Dvina-Smolensk-Dnieper (conveniently close to the frontier) and the high reliance placed on the capture and utilization of Russian rolling-stock to meet German supply consumption. Of course, when locomotives and wagons failed to materialize in the desired quantities, it became necessary to convert the lines to German gauge, an operation which was not technically difficult but which required more railroad engineer troops than the Germans had available and the supply situation suffered accordingly. Quote:
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2007-10-06, 14:32 | Link #274 | ||
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This is speculation on my part, but I don't think the girls ever had much chance to realise they had much to learn about strategies and tactics from Earth's militaries. Ask yourselves, how old were you when you first realised the importance of superior tactics and strategies in the military? I can't pin it down in myself, but I was well older than 20 before I understood there were more important things to winning wars than just firepower. Ever thought about their lives between ages 9 to 15? Between absorbing academic studies and TSAB training and actual missions, they might have been too busy learning how the TSAB did things. Given the TSAB's cultural bias towards "conventional weapons=certain death=really bad" that they would have picked up, they probably shied away from the military history section in the local bookstores. That's their only real hope finding something important about Earth militaries in Japan. Watching the right war documentary by chance is too much to ask for, and if they're staying away from the right books, you can forget about wanting to look up the information on the Web. After they graduated middle school, all three of them moved to Midchilda to work full-time for the TSAB. The chances of them learning much about Earth's military practices are now reduced to nearly zero. Even now, not one of them probably has any idea how formidable Earth's militaries can be. |
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2007-10-06, 14:50 | Link #275 |
I disagree with you all.
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I've learnt that superior tactics and discipline can beat superior numbers in elementary school. As for the practical applications of that knowledge - what tactics work and why, how to instill discipline and so on... I still haven't learnt. I've never had enough interest in it.
Hayate, OTOH, has supposedly wanted command for a long time. Then again, she probably studied only the military doctrines of Midchilda - that's what she'd be tested on, and, considering how different the technology is, ought to have been much more relevant than Earth's. I wonder what Gil Graham would think of all that? IIRC, he was an officer before he even came to Midchilda, and he's vastly more experienced than Hayate. He ought to have seen much more of the problems of the TSAB. |
2007-10-06, 15:01 | Link #276 | |
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2007-10-06, 17:43 | Link #277 |
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Hayate's not a ten year veteran, at least not the same way that Nanoha and Fate are.
At the end of A's, Nanoha had been in two major operations, both of which were resolved not incidentally due to her having huge amounts of firepower when it was necessary. Fate was a veteran at the start of S1, and her awkward "ex-enemy" incarceration and re-education phase happened between S1 and A's. (Look at it this way - in StrikerS, nobody's bothering Fate about her criminal record. She's been through that already.) Hayate wasn't even a rookie at this point. Okay, she's got a staff, she's got her knights, she's got a couple of good friends to help her out. But she's lacking any kind of experience in using magic whatsoever, aside from shooting the Book defense program a couple of times. She has no device. She's still under a big cloud of suspicion, one that still taints her record ten years later (though part of that might be due to the lack of anyone who actually died and could thus have the blame pinned on them - Fate was obviously being manipulated by Precia, but who was manipulating Hayate? Nobody really.) And incidentally, she still can't walk yet. We don't really know how long Hayate's rehabilitations - magical, physical, and political - actually took. We know that she was walking six years later, and had Rein by that point, so we can assume it was done by then. But we have no idea how long it actually took - it could have been a year, a couple of years, five years. And even at that point she would have been at the same spot where Nanoha was, say, by ep 4 of S1. (Then again, we have the comics that says that Hayate was at least functional six months later... though she still couldn't walk except when she was using her device, and she got pwned by Nanoha and Fate, not that THAT is anything to be ashamed of.) Anyway, it's still not totally fair to just harp on the shortcomings of the TSAB without pointing out that their threat profile is radically different. US military doctrine simply has no answer for a little girl who's invulnerable to guns, planes, tanks, and can take down a whole battalion without working too hard. (Note that I said 'totally'. TSAB's advantage lies entirely in the individual abilities of its members, most of which aren't enough to write home about, but some of which range on up to "frickin' amazing". Their disadvantages are in having really crappy doctrine. But theoretically they could get good doctrine...) The reason that US forces have good doctrine is that we've been in several major conflicts this century, and built up from having a pathetic military to, well, heh. It cost us a lot of blood and treasure to learn those lessons. And those lessons are difficult to translate to other militaries, even ones here on Earth that should be able to pick them up. I mean, there's no reason that the French army can't kick as much ass as the US army, pound for pound... except that they're French. ;p We don't have any idea how heavily engaged the Mid armed forces have been since the formation of the TSAB - hell, we don't know if they've had one war. Maybe it's no surprise that, tactically and strategically speaking, they look like a certain other military that was built not to go to war... |
2007-10-06, 17:45 | Link #278 | ||
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Though sending Hayate to some place like Iraq would be shocking to say the least… |
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2007-10-06, 20:52 | Link #279 | |||||
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However, their Force Preparation times are extremely poor. In the Nanoha A manga, it was stated that prepping a mere platoon (40 people) to move will take three hours. We are talking about putting on a barrier jacket and grabbing a Storage Device - somehow, this is supposed to take 3 hours. Imagine any Terran platoon taking 3 hours to grab their assault rifles, put on its combat fatigues and move out of its barracks in some kind of formation! And of course, in StrikerS, we see this again - the air mages take an hour to reach the scene (more if they've been fighting the fire for some time). When they finally come, we see at most 20 mages (a very small platoon!) In combat conditions, as of 1978, a Soviet division was expected to complete its combat preparation in 3 hours (of course, that's not to say that they don't take more time when it is available) from receipt of order. A company on alert (in assembly) was expected to get its butt into formation (thus moving) in 5 minutes. The Reinforced Regiment (read, coordinating a bunch of newly attached subunits) moves in under 120. Just a couple of things to show how criminally slow the TSAB is in comparison. Quote:
Fate probably, with Chrono's help, slothed off as much responsibility as possible. Hayate is the inverse. Quote:
Basically, being able to walk when using your device is as good as functional in the TSAB. She was already and Officer Candidate at the same time as Nanoha and Fate. She's less than a year's experience behind Nanoha, and maybe 2 behind Fate. Quote:
It'd be a little difficult on the US due to their limited range of air defense equipment (basically it is Patriot then Stingers). If they go against an army with competent air defense, the story becomes completely different. Mages have few answers to things (missiles and bullets) that are supersonic except to raise a all surrounding barrier, and if they are raising it they generally don't attack - they often don't even continue maneuvering. And their attacks are generally based on direct fire. With AA defense being capable of tracking things of smaller and smaller RCS, locking onto a flying mage won't be too hard, and then it is a matter of using a mix of fragmentation and AP to lethal effect. If the mage decides to shield, fire intermittent bursts for suppression. Sooner or later, she'd want to attack, and then you "squirt her" and let bullet momentum do its work (Barrier Jackets are soft). Quote:
BTW, is the JSDF really that bad (in competence; perhaps they do have similar mentalities)? They have to work with the Americans after all in exercises, and it takes a lot of sinking to sink all the way down to TSAB levels... Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2007-10-06 at 21:19. |
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2007-10-06, 21:52 | Link #280 | ||
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Also 99% of TSAB mages (even the aces) never show firepower much higher then small aircraft weapons, often considerably less. This is what 2000 pound aircraft bombs do... Spoiler for Now you See, Now you don't:
I’ve always felt that large caliber firearms would kill most TSAB mages with sustained fire while auto-cannons could deal with most of the rest, and any kind of heavy weight aerial weapon would totally ruin their shit. This is all modern stuff too presumably someone working with Nanoha's often distinctly science fictional tech could do better. Quote:
Now hook that up to say… a High Intensity Laser cannon. The mage is a bloody cloud of vapor before they can even blink or realize they’re being attacked. The sky is not a friendly place with modern or god forbid near future AA defenses scanning it. Last edited by Tk3997; 2007-10-06 at 22:11. |
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