2010-07-02, 05:57 | Link #12381 | |
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Oh and I thought the ones with the plan is the Beatrice faction, owing to how all of the siblings and cousins can be made to contribute, not just one particular side of them. And of course, the surviving Beatrice faction members are told to play everything as per normal. So: ... ok this got kinda long... Spoiler for Longish, again...:
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2010-07-02, 07:21 | Link #12382 | |||
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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It might be that this is a complete illusion, though, and FFT is always planned by Beatrice faction beforehand, but then it is not clear why the victims are always different (if you have preparation time, isn't it better to pick the victims you're sure of?) or what's the point to it at all, since it's not necessarily connected to the epitaph letters. Quote:
If it's the Beatrice faction, then what is the goal of FFT at all? It's very likely the goal is to influence Battler, since he stays alive for so long, but the most obvious way even a perfectly successful FFT plan can influence Battler is by inciting fear in him -- and fear was not the goal of Beatrice. It's still allowed to be an unavoidable side effect, I suppose, but what other effects can you have on a person by successfully pretending that six of his relatives and friends died in close vicinity?
I would say the goal has to be some game for no practical reason whatsoever, which is what Ep5 seems to want us to accept, but "showing the money" is a very expensive way to get a game started. Even in Ep3, nobody seems to be enjoying it, and you don't play games you don't enjoy. So it has to be a different reason. Quote:
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2010-07-02, 07:25 | Link #12383 |
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...I suppose it could be different each time, actually.
For episode 1, since they were killed in the dining room (probably) it wouldn't be too hard for, say, Shannon or Kumasawa or whoever to slip drugs into their tea and then have them beaten to death with the lead piping. Fake first twilight plan is possible, but then they were intending to be found in the dining room. For episode 2, since the six were killed in the chapel, they obviously had to be lured out in some way. Fake twilight murders seems very likely here. For episode 3, it isn't really necessary. The killer could've just shot the victims where they were... except for Kanon. If personality death is allowed, this one's pretty simple (although if personality death is allowed, it begs the question of why Beatrice never said "Kanon is dead" for the first episode). For episode 4... rather hard to say. Everything is a bit of a mess. |
2010-07-02, 08:50 | Link #12386 |
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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That's it. It's all for Nanjo, there is no more doubt! Unless he's the first to die in Ep7.
Seriously, yes, I made a mistake, but considering he's so remarkably passive, no way. But I thought of a slightly different reason for Battler specifically, which produces a better picture. FFT is a detective game to motivate Battler to find a 19th person "Beatrice", which will be presented to him. This was supposed to be an intensely personal experience for the two of them, related to the sin, and worth actually pulling every available string for. Either Jessica or Shannon are that Beatrice. Nobody is having fun even in Ep3, because they know things have gone horribly wrong and the game turned into real murder. And they have gone horribly wrong because Maria's Beatrice is someone else, who starts a completely unrelated game at the same moment. The intellectual puzzle game of the gold, with letters prepared well beforehand. Which would work, if allowed to play out without the FFT, just like the FFT might have worked if allowed to play out without the letters. Whether the planners were aware of each other and the conflict is not clear, since they probably overlap, unless Kanon managed to cheat everyone. The interference pattern between the two allows the real murderer to actually kill the FT victims... ...and then the two overlapping groups go against each other, now sure that someone from the other one is the murderer.
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2010-07-02, 09:25 | Link #12387 |
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By the way: After remembering the scene with Battler running into the dining room with a candlestick, I'm beginning to think the weapons are based to some extent on Cluedo/ Clue. I mean, we know handguns, ropes (garroting deaths, Kumasawa/ Gohda), candlesticks, some kind of knife and probably a melee weapon are involved somehow. More of an Easter egg type thing than a clue though.
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2010-07-02, 11:06 | Link #12388 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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*facedesks repeatedly once he gets to the fourth page of the story*
I think this may well be relevant, ladies and gentlemen, if only because I don't believe in coincidences like these. Clayton Rawson, "From Another World" (short story) Quote:
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2010-07-02, 11:37 | Link #12390 | |
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Maybe someone with paper library access can turn up more. Here's the full text of this particular story for reference, pardon the lost formatting: http://tinypaste.com/d49cf
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2010-07-02, 12:10 | Link #12391 |
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Join Date: May 2009
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Having checked the public libraries of my current residence, my hometown, and the Dallas Public Library, only one has a book by Clayton Rawson, and it's one of his magic books for children.
In fact, even the New York Public Library, to which I once had much readier access, only has two of his fiction works. Amazon has a much better selection. If I still lived closer to Dallas I could also rummage around at Half Price Books, which almost always has its share of obscure used books. So unless you happen to live near some sort of dedicated mystery library, Mr. Rawson's books seem quite difficult to find. Which would make you wonder how ryukishi got his hands on any of them... but maybe he's more popular in Japan. Or maybe Tokyo has a mystery novel library. EDIT: Houson, San Antonio, and Los Angeles have mystery book stores. Bit far away for me though.
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2010-07-02, 12:22 | Link #12392 | |
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Further digging seems to suggest someone in Japan (2ch) might have noticed the reference, at least, his name is mentioned together with Umineko a few times, but alas, I can't actually read the context in which they are mentioned. There is a chance it could be a coincidence... but that would be one of the freakiest in my practice. EDIT: Translations into Japanese definitely exist. EDIT EDIT: Actually, lots of, and he may actually be better remembered over there than in the English-speaking world, since I don't see such a reference page in English anywhere.
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2010-07-02, 14:47 | Link #12394 |
Intellectual Rapist
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Krauss seems to be the guy who came up with plan "Hey, let's have people fake their deaths." Nanjo never should be in the first twilight. His job is to go up to the bodies and then turnaround saying, "They're dead, Jim."
Were the letters with the safety deposit key said to be written by the same person who wrote Maria's letters?
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2010-07-02, 15:05 | Link #12395 | ||
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They were written by the same person who wrote in Maria's diary/grimoire. It is never stated that letters received during the game itself match anyone's handwriting at all, including that.
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2010-07-02, 15:06 | Link #12396 | |||
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We do, however, know that she wrote the message bottles thanks to Ange's reaction upon seeing them. |
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2010-07-02, 15:11 | Link #12397 | |||
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Otherwise there would be no sense whatsoever for Genji to immediately offer to paint over it, it would just get washed off by the rain. Quote:
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If, in fact, anyone got the idea that Maria's diary may contain writing by Beatrice, I expect that past the first twilight she'd be burned as a witch.
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2010-07-02, 15:12 | Link #12398 | |||||
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We do have an example from EP2 where people kept trying to fake murders (Nanjo and Kumasawa by Kanon) despite things already going horribly wrong. But definitely the Fake First Twilight plays out in many different ways as there are episodes. But it looks like the plan was set prior to the start of the gameboard since it tries to express itself in nearly all episodes. Except EP4. Quote:
The fantasy explanation is that the roulette somehow gives birth to chance and chance gives birth to magic. Kinzo, though has stacked the game with a bunch of other victims to increase his chance of surviving; that is his fantasy goal. What could this mean in reality? Quote:
In addition the treasure before this one was: "all the gold from the Golden Land." So, the gold itself is also part of the prize. I believe this unites these key elements: - Kinzo - Kinzo's Epitaph - The Gold - Beatrice faction (majority of the servants + Rosa + Nanjo + either/both George and Jessica) - First Beatrice letter - First Twilight Fakery - Battler's sin - a lost love (the third treasure) - to put the witch to sleep (the fourth treasure) I'm thinking it's likely now the lost love refers to at least the cousins, but possibly something to do with Battler, and his sin. The lost refers to it having been lost long ago, rather than having been killed during the murders, since the plan was to fake the deaths to begin with... I'm also thinking the idea of putting the witch to sleep is congruent with Beatrice's true objective of Battler killing her. In that way put her personality or legend or whatnot to sleep forever. Also, all these elements seem to have no relation to the real murders, except of course by setting up a situation for the real murders to have happened in a easy way. Quote:
We also know Battler's sin causes everyone to die. And we've guessed that it's an indirect death; Battler didn't kill nor was it directly revenge against him but rather his sin starts a chain of unavoidable events. Quote:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1913 (Look for the chance for any one person to survive all episodes 1-5. 1.31%) Also, check out: 3.46% Probability of not choosing any two people (EDIT: for FIrst Twilight) in all 5 games Anyways, I'm not sure my Lack-Of-Sleep-Reasoning is working fully right now as I am not in any lack of sleep. I have to put my brain in a Zen-like state, which is why I actually rewrote some of this message several times to par it down to something even more simple. Maybe you guys can simplify it even further... |
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2010-07-02, 15:14 | Link #12399 | ||
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Making Kinzo seem to be murdered and not just a corpse floating around the mansion for a year or so to cover up Krauss' embezzling sounds good.
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I still maintain that Kinzo died before the epitaph and portraits were put up. It makes a fake Beatrice showing up easier to pull off. If Shanon is Beatrice then the epitaph makes perfect sense if Battler solves it.
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2010-07-02, 15:20 | Link #12400 | |
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Notice that I didn't say for whom.
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