About Shinn and Kira...

[kk2extreme]

ways for shin to win in a fair fight one on one, no replacement units

a. dg cell (regeneration + enhance fighting stamina for both the machine and pilot)
b. zero system (predict every moves in advance, if shin can take the mental strain of the sys)
c. drugs (like stella and other psycho pliots in the other series, cheap and fast way to enhance fighting abilities)
d. all of above (he is not officially psycho)
e. none of above (he loses )
f. something that is not mentioned above (give me some ideas guys )

choose the most suitable answer (2 pts)

[Eagles]

Originally Posted by Neku

I guess I misinterpreted what you said.
By the way, I don't have doubts if Kira didn't have any handicaps, because Shinn could've died in Phase 34 as well.

Well I won't deny that Shinn could have died as well, although I believe Shinn is fully capable of defeating Kira, I also believe the reverse is very possible.

When he magically thrusted Kira with his ASS, Kira could've thrusted/slashed his beam saber through Impulse's cockpit/body. But, he still chose to thrust it through its head. Yep. Kira lost. But only because he still chose not to kill even though he was on the verge of death.

eh? I don't know about that, his angle seemed kind of off. Shinn flew in nearly horizontal to the ground (and straightened out a bit after he stabbed), I saw Kira's head stab more as a desperate last move. Then theres also the fact that Shinn had most of the momentum and had the Impulse's hands infront of the stomach. But then I also can't deny some possibility that Kira may have been able to attack the cockpit, but then both we and Shinn know he never aims for cockpits.

Impose of disadvantage or not, I don't care. I can accept that he lost. But if you were to say he lost to Shinn fairly, then it's debatable.

Fair enough.

So when?

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to ask. If you're asking when a situation like that could come again, just loot at this way: Kira still avoids killing, Kira still uses the same tactics, and It's not hard to pressure the AA using another ship.

Thanks, 4Tran.

If you're going by 4tran's point of putting the enemy in an unfair position, Kira wasn't able to exploit his advantage at that point. And after that once Shinn got into SEED mode everything was fought to a standstill between the two.

So when Kira has the advantage, it isn't a fair fight. But when Shinn imposed the disadvantages to himself, it is a fair fight.

Did you mean 'Kira imposed the disadvantages onto himself'?. Anyway I never said any of them were 'fair fights,' but Kira will always have disadvantages imposed onto himself since he always avoids attacking cockpits and always uses the same tactics. The only way I see a 'fair fight' happening between Kira and Shinn is if the AA gets detroyed or something and Kira goes into a berserker mode like he did against Athrun in SEED, at which point Shinn better calm down and start using his head or else he'd find his chances of winning to be fairly low.

With your first statement, it's like you're saying without preparations, Shinn cannot take on Kira in Strike Freedom. Yet you're still labeling him to be more skilful than Kira. Oh, the irony.

That's not what I'm trying to say at all. Hell even taking examples after episode 34, Kira only had the advantage when Shinn was out of SEED mode, and Kira was in it. After that, their fights are all stanstandstills, so he does manage to take on SF without preperations.

How is that relevant?
If you want to compare Shinn in Impulse with Kira, you'll have to compare him with Kira in Strike, not Kira in Freedom.

Shinn in the Destiny still blows stuff up with his sword. But fine, in Strike Kira just uses whatever weapon he can to defend himself and the AA. In Impulse Shinn uses whatever weapon he can to wipe out enemy fleets.

Shinn still didn't figure that out by himself. The main point is Kira doesn't aim for the cockpit, but only disarms. The main point was pointed out by Rey. If Shinn still couldn't get it, then he's stupid.

Who's to say he wounldn't get it on his own?

Did Shinn fight any more than one Gundams at the same time too?
You're saying as though Shinn didn't have backup: Rey, Lunamaria, the ability to recharge battery asap, the ability to replace parts as soon as it's destroyed. You don't have to make a comeback saying Strike could too. Yes, Strike could, but only with the aid of the SkyGrasper and it doesn't replace parts as fast as Impulse could.

Yes their situations were different, but then Shinn also managed to be much more offensive than Kira did, and I don't believe it was me who brought up Kira in Strike.

Also, I could say the same for Shinn. When Shinn got into his SEED mode, the mobile suits were like cannon/ASS fodder.

Yes the grunts of CE are crap, but it's much harder to take out 30 windams in an Impulse than it is to sit back beam spam any number of grunts.

No.. and?

and Kira is supposed to be better than Shinn because...?

***********************************

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

In space, Kira pawned Shinn as well. Anyone here who have watched final plus episode would have seen that Shinn could not even pose a threat to Kira when he uses his DRAGOONs. Again, he was being too much of a saint, so instead of using his DRAGOONs to tear Destiny to pieces, he aimed forward, which is blockable by Destiny's shields. Plus, in that battle, you cannot say that Shinn had a disadvantage because of his mental state, blah, blah, blah, cause he already knows that Kira and Athrun have survived and ready to fight him.

So I just went and rewatched that fight, Kira has his DRAGOONs shoot forward because he had just launched them, they didn't have enough time to get around Shinn. And Shinn manages to dodge all the DRAGOONs, and blocks a beam rifle shot that still causes an explosion (but doesn't cause any damage to the Destiny). After that Kira flies away, Shinn chases, Rey shows up, Kira launches his DRAGOONs at Rey. Shinn shows up shoots a couple of beam rifle shots, Kira goes into SEED mode, Shinn takes out his big gun, shoots, Kira shoots his chest cannon and both shots hit each other. After that Rey shows up, shoots at Kira and then Shinn leaves to go find the Minerva and AA. All of this while Shinn is out of SEED mode, thereby not fighting nearly at his potential. Again I hope you're not basing the fact that Kira is better than Shinn off that.

[PzIVf3]

Originally Posted by Eagles

Well I won't deny that Shinn could have died as well, although I believe Shinn is fully capable of defeating Kira, I also believe the reverse is very possible.


eh? I don't know about that, his angle seemed kind of off. Shinn flew in nearly horizontal to the ground (and straightened out a bit after he stabbed), I saw Kira's head stab more as a desperate last move. Then theres also the fact that Shinn had most of the momentum and had the Impulse's hands infront of the stomach. But then I also can't deny some possibility that Kira may have been able to attack the cockpit, but then both we and Shinn know he never aims for cockpits.


Fair enough.


I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to ask. If you're asking when a situation like that could come again, just loot at this way: Kira still avoids killing, Kira still uses the same tactics, and It's not hard to pressure the AA using another ship.


If you're going by 4tran's point of putting the enemy in an unfair position, Kira wasn't able to exploit his advantage at that point. And after that once Shinn got into SEED mode everything was fought to a standstill between the two.


Did you mean 'Kira imposed the disadvantages onto himself'?. Anyway I never said any of them were 'fair fights,' but Kira will always have disadvantages imposed onto himself since he always avoids attacking cockpits and always uses the same tactics. The only way I see a 'fair fight' happening between Kira and Shinn is if the AA gets detroyed or something and Kira goes into a berserker mode like he did against Athrun in SEED, at which point Shinn better calm down and start using his head or else he'd find his chances of winning to be fairly low.



That's not what I'm trying to say at all. Hell even taking examples after episode 34, Kira only had the advantage when Shinn was out of SEED mode, and Kira was in it. After that, their fights are all stanstandstills, so he does manage to take on SF without preperations.



Shinn in the Destiny still blows stuff up with his sword. But fine, in Strike Kira just uses whatever weapon he can to defend himself and the AA. In Impulse Shinn uses whatever weapon he can to wipe out enemy fleets.


Who's to say he wounldn't get it on his own?


Yes their situations were different, but then Shinn also managed to be much more offensive than Kira did, and I don't believe it was me who brought up Kira in Strike.


Yes the grunts of CE are crap, but it's much harder to take out 30 windams in an Impulse than it is to sit back beam spam any number of grunts.


and Kira is supposed to be better than Shinn because...?

***********************************


So I just went and rewatched that fight, Kira has his DRAGOONs shoot forward because he had just launched them, they didn't have enough time to get around Shinn. And Shinn manages to dodge all the DRAGOONs, and blocks a beam rifle shot that still causes an explosion (but doesn't cause any damage to the Destiny). After that Kira flies away, Shinn chases, Rey shows up, Kira launches his DRAGOONs at Rey. Shinn shows up shoots a couple of beam rifle shots, Kira goes into SEED mode, Shinn takes out his big gun, shoots, Kira shoots his chest cannon and both shots hit each other. After that Rey shows up, shoots at Kira and then Shinn leaves to go find the Minerva and AA. All of this while Shinn is out of SEED mode, thereby not fighting nearly at his potential. Again I hope you're not basing the fact that Kira is better than Shinn off that.

I agree of your strong credible words that i dont know anything to say is the fact Shinn has a high advantage of his reliable Impulse of changing parts and he can predict where he's gonna aim to disable parts.

[Neku]

Originally Posted by Eagles

eh? I don't know about that, his angle seemed kind of off. Shinn flew in nearly horizontal to the ground (and straightened out a bit after he stabbed), I saw Kira's head stab more as a desperate last move. Then theres also the fact that Shinn had most of the momentum and had the Impulse's hands infront of the stomach. But then I also can't deny some possibility that Kira may have been able to attack the cockpit, but then both we and Shinn know he never aims for cockpits.

..which is why I'm saying if Kira kills, Shinn would've been dead too.

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to ask. If you're asking when a situation like that could come again, just loot at this way: Kira still avoids killing, Kira still uses the same tactics, and It's not hard to pressure the AA using another ship.

I was asking for facts. When did Shinn defeat Kira again when he comes back with Strike Freedom? The context "Why won't Shinn be able to ..." doesn't matter because it never happened.

...I guess I answered my own question.

If you're going by 4tran's point of putting the enemy in an unfair position, Kira wasn't able to exploit his advantage at that point. And after that once Shinn got into SEED mode everything was fought to a standstill between the two.

No. I was thanking him for pointing out that "the burden of proof".

Did you mean 'Kira imposed the disadvantages onto himself'?. Anyway I never said any of them were 'fair fights,' but Kira will always have disadvantages imposed onto himself since he always avoids attacking cockpits and always uses the same tactics.

Don't contradict yourself just to refute my replies. Also, let me rephrase:
When Kira imposes the disadvantages to himself, according to you, it is a fair fight.

Originally Posted by earlier posted by Eagles

While it wasn't a completely fair fight, it's about as fair as you can get against Kira. Kira imposed every disadvantage onto himself. It's his own fault for falling into predictable fighting patterns.

However, when Shinn chooses to impose the disadvantage to himself, it's not a fair fight.

Originally Posted by earlier posted by Eagles

And ofcourse theres the fact that the guy he had just killed had come back to life, so obviously hes not going to be in the best state of mind. So following your logic I'm going to say it wasn't a fair fight, because Shinn was made (more?) unstable and was generally just caught offguard by seeing Kira come back to life.

By the way... if you want to enhance the point about "it's about as fair as you can get against Kira", it only proves that Shinn doesn't have the skills to defeat Kira if Kira was going all out; killing.

That's not what I'm trying to say at all. Hell even taking examples after episode 34, Kira only had the advantage when Shinn was out of SEED mode, and Kira was in it. After that, their fights are all stanstandstills, so he does manage to take on SF without preperations.

But did Shinn manage to even touch Kira after they both got into SEED mode?

Shinn in the Destiny still blows stuff up with his sword. But fine, in Strike Kira just uses whatever weapon he can to defend himself and the AA. In Impulse Shinn uses whatever weapon he can to wipe out enemy fleets.

Let's compare. In his days with Impulse, Shinn took out Auel, the .. crab mobile suit, or whatever you call that, some ships.. did I forget any?

Now, Kira. His days with Strike. He took out Andrew, scarred Yzak, killed Nicol, fought to death with Athrun, fought single handedly against the dog mobile suits(I can't remember their names), reprogrammed Strike when he was fighting in desert, in the sea. I'm not sure if I've forgotten any. Been 2 or 3 years since I've watched them.

Let's go back to Shinn again when he's in a pinch.
Shinn[Neku in disguise]: MY ARM'S BROKEN!! Minerva~! Force Silhouette!
*replaces parts*
Shinn[Neku in disguise]: Neh neh bu bu.
Shinn[Neku in disguise]: HOLY CRAP I RAN OUT OF BATTERY! Minerva!
*a beam shoots through*
Shinn[Neku in disguise]: HAHA. TIME TO GO AGAIN! COME ON YOU SUCKERS!
Shinn[Neku in disguise]: Hitting my cockpit now aren't ya! I can.. *split*

Now, let's flashback to Kira.
Kira[Neku in disguise]: *battery runs out* OMGWTF NOT AGAIN! HOLY SHIT. MY PHASESHUFTTTTT! *proceeds to fight with his two combat knives anyway* *and survives*

Unfortunately, that's all I can remember about Kira. I only remember that Kira cannot recharge his battery, cannot replace parts as quickly as Impulse, has to replace parts with the help of SkyGrasper and cannot split.

Who's to say he wounldn't get it on his own?

The fact states that he did not.
If he could, the series would show. But instead, they showed that Rey pointed it out to him. Why?

Yes their situations were different, but then Shinn also managed to be much more offensive than Kira did, and I don't believe it was me who brought up Kira in Strike.

..which is why I think of him of an barbarian. He only charges, I see no skill.

Of course it wasn't you. I never said it was you either. What's the fuss?

Yes the grunts of CE are crap, but it's much harder to take out 30 windams in an Impulse than it is to sit back beam spam any number of grunts.

How hard is it when the Windams are hardly moving?
It's the same. It's just that Impulse has to move around, killing them one by one and Freedom can just finish them all down in one go.

and Kira is supposed to be better than Shinn because...?

You tell me.

[Eagles]

Originally Posted by Neku

..which is why I'm saying if Kira kills, Shinn would've been dead too.

While I can't discount the possibility that Shinn would die if Kira was out for blood, Shinn also wouldn't have fought the same way. Then theres also the question, would Kira fight the same but just aim at the cockpit? Or would he be truly out blood and fight like he did against Athrun in SEED?

I was asking for facts. When did Shinn defeat Kira again when he comes back with Strike Freedom? The context "Why won't Shinn be able to ..." doesn't matter because it never happened.

...I guess I answered my own question.

This whole debate stemmed from a comment of yours stating that Lacus wouldn't need Shinn, to which I'm pointing out that Shinn beat Freedom, and can do so again with Strike-Freedom given circumstances that aren't that hard to duplicate.

No. I was thanking him for pointing out that "the burden of proof".

ah, my mistake.

Don't contradict yourself just to refute my replies. Also, let me rephrase:
When Kira imposes the disadvantages to himself, according to you, it is a fair fight.

I said it was as fair as it gets, I never said it was a fair fight, that's all. When they fight again Kira still refuses to aim for cockpits, and so that again is not a fait fight by your books. However this trait is deeply ingrained in Kira, and it's unlikely we'd ever get a completely fair fight.

However, when Shinn chooses to impose the disadvantage to himself, it's not a fair fight.

The disadvantages imposed on Shinn were not by his choice. He can't chose to go into SEED mode at whim, he can't help what goes through his head when people he's killed come back to life.

By the way... if you want to enhance the point about "it's about as fair as you can get against Kira", it only proves that Shinn doesn't have the skills to defeat Kira if Kira was going all out; killing.

But then what if Shinn goes all out? And not in a berserker mode, but in a calm and calculating mode, one where he uses his head. If Kira can go to one extreme why can't Shinn go to the other?

But did Shinn manage to even touch Kira after they both got into SEED mode?

Did the opposite happen? But I see your point, Shinn can only fight SF to a stanstill.

Let's compare. In his days with Impulse, Shinn took out Auel, the .. crab mobile suit, or whatever you call that, some ships.. did I forget any?

Saved Athrun during Earth re-entry, wiped out an EA fleet singlehandedly (first SEED mode), took Auel, took out 30 windams, took down Freedom.

Now, Kira. His days with Strike. He took out Andrew, scarred Yzak, killed Nicol, fought to death with Athrun, fought single handedly against the dog mobile suits(I can't remember their names), reprogrammed Strike when he was fighting in desert, in the sea. I'm not sure if I've forgotten any. Been 2 or 3 years since I've watched them.

Andrew was in a modified grunt, but I guess we can call that skill. Yzak was blindsided, Nicol ran into that beamsaber (yea that took skill kira ), Kira fought the dog suits and had to be saved by reinforcements IIRC, reprogrammed the strike? I guess you can count that as skill, but then you'd have to count Shinn's tactics during the Freedom fight. The two battles that stand out as skilled are the dogs and fight to the death (lol CE) with Athrun.

Let's go back to Shinn again when he's in a pinch.
Shinn[Neku in disguise]: MY ARM'S BROKEN!! Minerva~! Force Silhouette!
*replaces parts*
Shinn[Neku in disguise]: Neh neh bu bu.
Shinn[Neku in disguise]: HOLY CRAP I RAN OUT OF BATTERY! Minerva!
*a beam shoots through*
Shinn[Neku in disguise]: HAHA. TIME TO GO AGAIN! COME ON YOU SUCKERS!
Shinn[Neku in disguise]: Hitting my cockpit now aren't ya! I can.. *split*

Now, let's flashback to Kira.
Kira[Neku in disguise]: *battery runs out* OMGWTF NOT AGAIN! HOLY SHIT. MY PHASESHUFTTTTT! *proceeds to fight with his two combat knives anyway* *and survives*

um, ok then.

Unfortunately, that's all I can remember about Kira. I only remember that Kira cannot recharge his battery, cannot replace parts as quickly as Impulse, has to replace parts with the help of SkyGrasper and cannot split.

So your point is that Impulse was better than Strike? Fair enough, but then all of CE's tech moved forward, not just one Gundams.

The fact states that he did not.
If he could, the series would show. But instead, they showed that Rey pointed it out to him. Why?

Who knows, maybe he was still distraught over Stella. He may not have figured it out by his battle with Freedom, but if he didn't eventually then Fukuda would have his character stupid beyond belief, *takes another look at the CE cast* maybe he already has.

..which is why I think of him of an barbarian. He only charges, I see no skill.

Of course it wasn't you. I never said it was you either. What's the fuss?

Yes he charges in, and proves to be more effective than Kira did. He wipes out his enemies, whereas Kira just fought them off. You can ignore Shinn's skill if you want, I often see Kira fanboys doing just that, but its not like Kira didn't do the same thing when he fought Athrun in SEED. And that was the best Kira's fought to date.

How hard is it when the Windams are hardly moving?
It's the same. It's just that Impulse has to move around, killing them one by one and Freedom can just finish them all down in one go.

The difference is that the Impulse could be taken out at any time, the Freedom is in a much more secure position and has to do much less work to achieve similar results. You can argue that any fight against grunts shouldn't be counted, but this goes against the way Destiny was directed. Shinn found himself in situations that required him to take large numbers of grunts rather than fight off a small number of named characters.

[aeriolewinters]

I like to take the opportunity to say that I may hate Kira's piloting right now. But to say that Shinn's skills in Impulse are better than Kira in Strike, I would like to disagree with them.

Kira never had proper training and had to make most of the situation whereas Shinn cannot without the advantages the Silhouette system provides.

Let's go back to Shinn again when he's in a pinch.
Shinn[Neku in disguise]: MY ARM'S BROKEN!! Minerva~! Force Silhouette!
*replaces parts*
Shinn[Neku in disguise]: Neh neh bu bu.
Shinn[Neku in disguise]: HOLY CRAP I RAN OUT OF BATTERY! Minerva!
*a beam shoots through*
Shinn[Neku in disguise]: HAHA. TIME TO GO AGAIN! COME ON YOU SUCKERS!
Shinn[Neku in disguise]: Hitting my cockpit now aren't ya! I can.. *split*

Now, let's flashback to Kira.
Kira[Neku in disguise]: *battery runs out* OMGWTF NOT AGAIN! HOLY SHIT. MY PHASESHUFTTTTT! *proceeds to fight with his two combat knives anyway* *and survives*

This quote is an example of how Shinn can get out of trouble.

In episode 34, this is what happened, mirroring the battle between Archer and Berserker in FSN. Archer actually beat Berserker 5 times, but Berserker was still Alive because he has 12 lives in stock.

If it had not been for Rey's help and Kira holding himself back then (He even admitted to doing so).

Had the situation been reversed ( Shinn Killing Lacus anyone?) would you even think there would be doubt as to who wins that hypothetical battle?

As Pilots, Shinn can only think of what the Impulse is specified/standardized to do, Kira (in his prime) would think of things that Strike cannot do prior to standardization (i.e. Throwing beam sabers to Ba-Cue(s), Making tweaks to Strike's FCS/OS, etc.). He flat out beats Shinn simply because he thinks outside of what his superiors ( In that case, Rey) would think of.

As to why Kira lost that battle during 34, it was the combination of two things


1.Luck
-Shinn had the equipment that neutralizes Kira's no-kill philosophy.
-Shinn had the prior advise given by Rey
-Shinn's focus was solely on defeating Kira

2.Kira's deterioration as a pilot
-Kira in Freedom does not think outside of Freedom's capabilities. Therefore, he cannot use the same shock he had when he piloted Strike. In Strike, he tries to push it to the limit, In Freedom, he does not.

[Neku]

Originally Posted by Eagles

While I can't discount the possibility that Shinn would die if Kira was out for blood, Shinn also wouldn't have fought the same way. Then theres also the question, would Kira fight the same but just aim at the cockpit? Or would he be truly out blood and fight like he did against Athrun in SEED?

It doesn't matter.
I was stating, if Kira finally decided to kill Shinn once and for all, he would've stabbed Impulse's cockpit when Shinn rushed into him. It would be a double death.

One more thing. Did you really think that Shinn's ASS could've actually stabbed through Freedom? Of course, it did. What am I saying.. I guess maybe sometimes, the beam in the ASS can expand.

This whole debate stemmed from a comment of yours stating that Lacus wouldn't need Shinn, to which I'm pointing out that Shinn beat Freedom, and can do so again with Strike-Freedom given circumstances that aren't that hard to duplicate.

Stemmed out from a comment of mine? No.
A debate is mutual. If you just ignored me, there wouldn't be a debate.

..and you still cannot show me a part where Shinn has taken down Kira again. I couldn't care less if he can do so again, or there would be a chance. Show me something.. tangible, something that exists. Then I'll gladly shut up.

I said it was as fair as it gets, I never said it was a fair fight, that's all. When they fight again Kira still refuses to aim for cockpits, and so that again is not a fait fight by your books. However this trait is deeply ingrained in Kira, and it's unlikely we'd ever get a completely fair fight.

As fair as it gets and fair. I don't see any difference. So you're meaning it's unfair, afterall, for Kira.

Otherwise, what sort of thing or situation gets unfair and fair at the same time?

The disadvantages imposed on Shinn were not by his choice. He can't chose to go into SEED mode at whim, he can't help what goes through his head when people he's killed come back to life.

So?
He still lost.

But then what if Shinn goes all out? And not in a berserker mode, but in a calm and calculating mode, one where he uses his head. If Kira can go to one extreme why can't Shinn go to the other?

When was Shinn ever in a calm and calculating mode? Exclude the fight with Freedom please. That's not him being calm or calculating. That's him being prepared.

Did the opposite happen? But I see your point, Shinn can only fight SF to a stanstill.

No.
Standstill? I don't think we can establish that yet. Since we haven't at all seen them in close-combat when they're both in SEED mode.

Saved Athrun during Earth re-entry, wiped out an EA fleet singlehandedly (first SEED mode), took Auel, took out 30 windams, took down Freedom.

Was there any show of skills?

Andrew was in a modified grunt, but I guess we can call that skill. Yzak was blindsided, Nicol ran into that beamsaber (yea that took skill kira ), Kira fought the dog suits and had to be saved by reinforcements IIRC, reprogrammed the strike? I guess you can count that as skill, but then you'd have to count Shinn's tactics during the Freedom fight. The two battles that stand out as skilled are the dogs and fight to the death (lol CE) with Athrun.

But Kira still showed skill.
You see, in an anime, skill is shown when you take down your opponents with a variety of combat skills and how you manage to survive. Not just by flinging your sword and boomerangs around when you're angry or shooting accurately(counts as a skill though) with the same boring footage and calling for reinforcements every time you run out.

Yeah, Shinn destroyed 30 Windams, a friggin' fleet. So what? Were they moving?

So your point is that Impulse was better than Strike? Fair enough, but then all of CE's tech moved forward, not just one Gundams.

That's not my point.
Impulse is clearly better than Strike: that's fact. My point is, it's not just better, it's improved in a lot of ways: from being able to recharge batteries immediately to replace parts as soon as the pilot shouts. Of course, Kira could replace parts too. But with higher risks and the need of the SkyGrasper.

..and your point? So what if all technology moved forward? What's the difference?

If Shinn couldn't destroy 30 Windams with Impulse under SEED mode, then it's a joke, with all the luxuries Impulse has.

Who knows, maybe he was still distraught over Stella. He may not have figured it out by his battle with Freedom, but if he didn't eventually then Fukuda would have his character stupid beyond belief, *takes another look at the CE cast* maybe he already has.

The whole revenge thing is for Stellar. What makes you think he won't concentrate?

Yes he charges in, and proves to be more effective than Kira did. He wipes out his enemies, whereas Kira just fought them off. You can ignore Shinn's skill if you want, I often see Kira fanboys doing just that, but its not like Kira didn't do the same thing when he fought Athrun in SEED. And that was the best Kira's fought to date.

How do we ignore Shinn's skills when he doesn't have any shown?

Kira doesn't charge in all the time.

The difference is that the Impulse could be taken out at any time, the Freedom is in a much more secure position and has to do much less work to achieve similar results. You can argue that any fight against grunts shouldn't be counted, but this goes against the way Destiny was directed. Shinn found himself in situations that required him to take large numbers of grunts rather than fight off a small number of named characters.

Why would I discount it if we are literally talking about how he fights with grunts? Taken out any time? I never saw the risk. Once he's out there slashing away, nothing halted him.

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by Eagles

The difference is that the Impulse could be taken out at any time, the Freedom is in a much more secure position and has to do much less work to achieve similar results. You can argue that any fight against grunts shouldn't be counted, but this goes against the way Destiny was directed. Shinn found himself in situations that required him to take large numbers of grunts rather than fight off a small number of named characters.

So can Freedom. Much less work. Riiiggght. Except for the fact that Kira does not Full-Burst every five-seconds and disarm everyone which still requires a lot of skill as he has to aim every single beam of Freedom's cannons AWAY from the cockpit. Something Shinn doesn't need, because he doesn't care.

And besides, Kira uses Freedom's speed to basically disable everyone with his beam saber. Not with insane beam-spamming. Something that I can't say for Shinn. He took down 30 Windams with Force Impulse? How many did Lunamaria take down with Force Impulse? How many did Rey take down with Blaze Zaku Phantom? Hell, how many did Lunamaria take down with her pink Gunner Zaku Warrior? In conclusion, taking down Windams is NOT HARD TO DO.

Large numbers of grunts > Small number of named characters.

Are you kidding me? I thought you just claimed that CE grunts are terrible. How many beams did Shinn actually dodge? The Windams were basically moving target practices. Shinn had no real threat of getting shot down by them. Besides, even if he did get shot anywhere else that is not the cockpit, he could just scream : "Meyrin, ____ Silhouette, NOW" A luxury that Kira in neither Strike nor Freedom has but has to fight against skilled pilots which have suits of equal power to him. Even in Freedom. The three druggies, anyone? When Freedom was decapitated, he could not scream "Miriallia, Chest Flyer, NOW" and fight again.
In fact, in their battle, Shinn technically used TWO Impulses to beat Freedom. If he does not have the luxury of regenerating parts, he would've lost in the first few minutes of the battle as Force Impulse was already slashed to pieces.

In fact, when he gets Destiny, he does not even need to dodge, he just charges forward with Destiny's ASS with little disregard to the mobile suit's health, knowing that he would not get hit. Kira, at least, seems to take care of SF and dodges beam attacks from grunts.

[Paladinoras]

You know, after watching Final Plus again, it is awfully clear that Shinn cannot fight against DRAGOONs. He evades a couple of beams, blocks one, and suddenly, Kira pops out of nowhere and full-bursts his ass. Shield broken and something exploded apparently.

[Neku]

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

You know, after watching Final Plus again, it is awfully clear that Shinn cannot fight against DRAGOONs. He evades a couple of beams, blocks one, and suddenly, Kira pops out of nowhere and full-bursts his ass. Shield broken and something exploded apparently.

I thought it didn't matter.
I doubt he'll forget the way Kira aims. Plus Kira unleashed his DRAGOONs to halt the movements of his WoL and distract him. It's so easy to trap Shinn :/

[Rising Dragon]

Shinn fights mainly using his emotions. Someone should've stuffed his ass down in the Guyana Highlands and had a ninja teach him. Then we should see how well he fares against Jesus Yamato.

[Sir Dearka]

Shinn may not be as experienced and talented as Kira, but he is without doubt one of those few who at least stand a chance against the overpowered coordinator Yamato is.

[yezhanquan]

IMO, GSD was a broken piece of work. (When the untranslated yonkoma is even better than the original series, something is very wrong.)

Having said that, Jesus Yamato doesn't need more supporters. If it's between him and Shinn, I'll pick Shinn. If it's between Shinn and Athrun, I'll pick Athrun.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

IMO, GSD was a broken piece of work. (When the untranslated yonkoma is even better than the original series, something is very wrong.)

Having said that, Jesus Yamato doesn't need more supporters. If it's between him and Shinn, I'll pick Shinn. If it's between Shinn and Athrun, I'll pick Athrun.

To be honest, I'd pick both Shinn and Kira over Athrun. For the whole series he acted as if he forgot everything he learned in the first SEED

And heck, I hate the phrase "Jesus Yamato". It is ok when it is used sporadically, but when it appears as often as it is now it is getting really annoying.

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

To be honest, I'd pick both Shinn and Kira over Athrun. For the whole series he acted as if he forgot everything he learned in the first SEED

And heck, I hate the phrase "Jesus Yamato". It is ok when it is used sporadically, but when it appears as often as it is now it is getting really annoying.

I don't get that feeling. Meh, I read the Edge manga, where things were told from Athrun's POV.

[Phantom-Takaya]

I would pick some random civilian over any of them, honestly. More realistic, less godly and still has a shot at being a pilot... That either Shinn kills or Kira knocks around until disabled...

[Sir Dearka]

My mum could make a nice random civilian. She's got enough rage to fill up 10 Shinns :P

As for Athrun I won't change my mind. They've pretty much spoiled his character even more than Kira's, IMHO.

I can't get over Asuka being discarded as the main protagonists, though. Replacing Shinn and Minerva back with Kira and Archangel was one of the mistakes that destroyed GSD in my eyes. But still... it was nice to see more of SEED

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

My mum could make a nice random civilian. She's got enough rage to fill up 10 Shinns :P

As for Athrun I won't change my mind. They've pretty much spoiled his character even more than Kira's, IMHO.

I can't get over Asuka being discarded as the main protagonists, though. Replacing Shinn and Minerva back with Kira and Archangel was one of the mistakes that destroyed GSD in my eyes. But still... it was nice to see more of SEED

Athrun, well, at least in between his oh-so-many defections, he still has enough time to make his own personal harem of Meer, Lunamaria, and Meyrin. Gotta love that!

Meh, I always disliked the Minerva, it is "supposedly" more advanced than the Archangel, but it has less weapons. Or at least it seems that way. Plus, their survivals were just outrageous. Although we can partially thank that to Kira.

Maybe Fukuda decided to hold a poll and found out that everyone seems to hate Shinn and being the crowd-pleaser that he is, decided to swap him with the ever-popular Kira Yamato. Well, maybe he is overpowered, but I don't really mind that. If he gets shot a couple of times, I would be happier, but I am not really surprised that he can do all that he did. Besides, I think Fukuda and Morosawa made him uber-god to please the fans. Didn't work out so well, now, did it.

Man, I hope that in the new Gundam Seed movie, Kira becomes less of a god, or at least give him a decent god enemy. Hope that will change people's opinions of him.

[Sir Dearka]

Love what? Harem does not make the man, really

As for Fukuda- the crowd pleaser.... this "crowd-pleasing" of his this time lead to the outrageous lowering of the series' quality. In fact, during mid series I found myself cheering for Shinn and Minerva. I was upset seeing how they were discarded like this. To me, it was just LAME. New series - new hero. Be consequent, Mr. F!

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Love what? Harem does not make the man, really

As for Fukuda- the crowd pleaser.... this "crowd-pleasing" of his this time lead to the outrageous lowering of the series' quality. In fact, during mid series I found myself cheering for Shinn and Minerva. I was upset seeing how they were discarded like this. To me, it was just LAME. New series - new hero. Be consequent, Mr. F!

No, but it does show his amazing girl-getting skills.

Well, if he didin't please the crowd, Kira would be dead, Athrun would be a cripple and God knows what would happen to Shinn. And Dearka would probably die too.
Although I think he pleases the crowd more than a regular hooker, it is not necesarrily a bad thing.

I think it's impossible to replace the current cast. For better or for worse, everyone recognizes them already. Changing them would kill the profits.