[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[cronnoponno]

Um, okay, so I was just reading ep 6 for fun when I came across a line I never payed attention to before.

When Kyrie was talking to Jessica about how she got lucky that Asumu died, she said(not quoted word for word but you'll get the idea): ''I have to be really thankful of my master, because of my ''certain willpower'' to do it, it brought fourth a miracle.''

It was a longer quote but, what the heck was that about?!?

[Jan-Poo]

She's talking about Lambdadelta. Those who thinks the metaworld exist will think Lambda physically made Kyrie's wish come true. Those who thinks the metaworld is just a metaphor will think that that sentence is just a metaphor to say that Kyrie reached a certain level of determination needed to achieve very hard objectives.

[victorino123]

I will create another topic then..

[victorino123]

So..... battler did all the things? .-.
How? He used shannon? =P

[cronnoponno]

Wait, if they wanted to leave it up to interpretation why would she have said ''I must thank my master''? Shouldn't they have said ''Through certain willpower I have obtained a miracle'' or something like that? Why did she say ''My master''?

[AuraTwilight]

So..... battler did all the things? .-.
How? He used shannon? =P

Most definitely not.

Wait, if they wanted to leave it up to interpretation why would she have said ''I must thank my master''? Shouldn't they have said ''Through certain willpower I have obtained a miracle'' or something like that? Why did she say ''My master''?

Because Lambdadelta is a metaphorical personification of determination and it's a fantasy scene where Love is personified as two trapalicious twins and Jessica is a killer battle robot.

[Jan-Poo]

For the same reason Ange calls Featherinne her master I guess?

Or you can imagine that the same way Ange has been "visited" by Bern, Kyries has been "visited" by Lambda and she started calling her "master" ever since.

And it was obvious, but as AT said that's a magic scene you have there, so it's not like the real Kyrie ever said those words. This is umineko, the fiction doesn't even try to be consistent.

[AuraTwilight]

Which isn't a bad thing; the fantasy's inability to keep consistent is an asset that clued people in on what was fake from what was real.

[cronnoponno]

I know arguing is pretty unneeded at this point, but wasn't the magical part started after their long talk? I don't think Kyrie(who never suspected magic to exist till Jessica showed her by making a giant hole in the wall) would actually say she worships some goddess who she probably shouldn't even know about. When Beatrice showed Kyrie ''magic'' in episode 2, she seemed almost certain it was fake. The only times she even started to believe in any of the tales was when she was either put into desperation for her life(like when she called Battler and told him to believe, unless of course she was the culprit blah blah blah), or when she couldn't prove that tricks were used(in Episode 2 where Beatrice showed the siblings magic in the chapel).

Even if it was a Fantasy Scene, if she had already surrendered her thoughts to figural beings, she shouldn't have been too shocked about Jessica either.

[Jan-Poo]

as I said, there's no consistence.


But let's say you don't want to surrender to this fact, where can this lead you too? There are no hints nor reasons whatsoever for Kyrie to have anyone that she would regard as "master" in the real world.

but wasn't the magical part started after their long talk?

Just because you didn't see sparkling lights and special effects it doesn't mean it's not a magic scene. See EP1 when Natsuhi talked to Kinzo or when Genji and Kanon found the crime scene of the second twilight.

Jessica wasn't supposed to be in the mansion at all, later we found her with George and they are both looking for the missing Battler, in the guesthouse. In other words she had no reasons to be in the mansion or lying about not having been there if she wasn't the culprit or an accomplice. Ergo it was a magic scene since the beginning.

[AuraTwilight]

On top of that, I just want to say that personifying a concept and treating it as a goddess due to your luck with that concept is not the same as accepting magic. For all we know it could've been a turn of phrase, like "Lady Luck is smiling on me tonight."

[Kealym]

This is also an element that feeds into the Kyrie culprit theories, in my opinion.

Basically, in that Kyrie is probably the only human on the island portrayed as "Totally willing to shank a bitch if it came down to that", or rather, she's had the most overt implications of such.

... ... I mean, that's really just part of why Requiem's Tea Party was such a ... lulzy little affair. *cough*

[Jan-Poo]

Yeah that has been speculated a lot. Kyrie became a very popular culprit candidate after EP6, and she already was suspected after EP4.

Then EP7...

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Kealym

This is also an element that feeds into the Kyrie culprit theories, in my opinion.

Basically, in that Kyrie is probably the only human on the island portrayed as "Totally willing to shank a bitch if it came down to that", or rather, she's had the most overt implications of such.

... ... I mean, that's really just part of why Requiem's Tea Party was such a ... lulzy little affair. *cough*

On the other hand, Kyrie is only ever depicted as ever wanting to shank a particular bitch, and said bitch done already been shanked (or its equivalent). It's something of a stretch to say "because this individual would kill one person in particular, this individual is more likely to kill any given person than any other individual."

[AuraTwilight]

Not only that, but George has literally said that he would kill everyone on the island in order to be with Shannon. KYRIE is definitely not the person who needs some explaining to do...

[LyricalAura]

Continuing this from the Q&A thread before Klash gets cranky...

Originally Posted by haguruma

The one in the coffin is representing Beatrice in general, so any Beatrice can be in that coffin. It's not Yasu, because he is alive as Lion in the EP7 Kakera and not the Kuwadorian Beatrice, because she still fell from the cliff and Yasu/Lion was given to Natsuhi.

That's a very interesting way to look at things, especially in combination with what Bluemail suggested:

Originally Posted by Bluemail

I think it makes some sense that the one lying in the coffin could actually be Ange. The EP7 ???? scene between Ange and Battler might be about the first scene of EP7, with Battler giving Ange the story that is EP8. He might have some complicated feelings about Ange too, not being there for her when their family died

I theorized before that Ange had vanished at some point in 1998, and that her fate was a cat box. It would be kind of elegant (and horribly sad) if that opening scene of EP7, in the process of laying Yasu-Beatrice to rest, was also simultaneously Tohya accepting that Ange wasn't going to turn up alive again, and that he'd forever lost his chance to reunite with her. She was the final Beatrice, after all.

[Jan-Poo]

I think the one in the coffin is simply the Beatrice that died in EP5 which is by extension Yasu's form in the metaworld.

As for the book... well in EP8 we see Ange snatching it and once she read it she wasn't really pleased with its content. Unless the book underwent a transubstantiation that's what it always has been: the truth about Rokkenjima and the real Beatrice which Battler wanted to seal forever.

This is also implied in the lyrics of "ricordando il passato".

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I think the one in the coffin is simply the Beatrice that died in EP5 which is by extension Yasu's form in the metaworld.

I think that is a matter of interpretation, because for me Yasu never had any part in the meta world at all, except creating the character of Beatrice, with all it's extensions.
What died in EP5 was basically neither Yasu nor Beatrice, but a representation of Yasu's readiness to sacrifice his/her innocence in order to preserve the chance of a happy future.
Beatrice not being able to revive again was, for me, a symbol how the origin of the culprit-wannabe Beatrice is dead...the person Battler was effectively still in love with as it seems.
...
..
.
Well that and the events being a hint for what happened i Kuwadorian with the 2nd Beatrice.

As for the book... well in EP8 we see Ange snatching it and once she read it she wasn't really pleased with its content. Unless the book underwent a transubstantiation that's what it always has been: the truth about Rokkenjima and the real Beatrice which Battler wanted to seal forever.

Well yes that depends if you believe that the book BATTLER put in the coffin and the book that Eva used as a diary (the book of the one and only truth) are one and the same...which I suppose they do not have to be.

This is also implied in the lyrics of "ricordando il passato".

Interesting....it seems you read the lyrics totally different than me.
私の綴る物語の中で　あなたは自由に羽ばたける
あなたの輝きがくすまぬように
私は最後の魔法を掛けましょう
どうか　真実がもたらす悲しみに
金色の美しい夢が　穢されませんように

Spoiler for translation:

In the story I wove, you can fly freely.
And for your radiance never to weaken,
I shall cast this final magic.
So that, with the sadness that truth brings,
that beautiful golden dream is never stained.

Which is basically BATTLER's and Tôya's idea of protecting the memory of the Ushiromiya's and all the Beatrice's...and therefore also Yasu's wish to protect them by creating the illusion of the murdering witch.
I think it's no accident that the song ends with the wish "my beloved one...rest in peace". Like EP8 it's not directed towards a certain person but all those who were invloved...although of course for Battler it's especially Yasu, who gave his/her innocence to preserve the innocence of others.

And if you include the lines from the full version
あなたの抱いた幻想の中で
私は愛を知りました
あなたの願いを　受け継ぐために
私はその名を呼び続けるでしょう

Spoiler for translation:

In the illusion you embraced
I came to know love.
And to succeed your wish
I will continue to call your name.

This can be read as Battler promising that he will continue preserving the witch's illusion, as he did from the end of EP5 on.

[Cao Ni Ma]

My thoughts are basically the same Haguruma. Small question, you read the book that was a compilation of theories right? Care to give out some outstanding examples and what you think about them?

[Jan-Poo]

Well yes that depends if you believe that the book BATTLER put in the coffin and the book that Eva used as a diary (the book of the one and only truth) are one and the same...which I suppose they do not have to be.

Ange takes the book from the chapel in a gameboard created by Battler. And it seems that Battler was well aware of what kind of content Ange would read. He didn't give me the impression that he wanted to prevent Ange from reading a good and funny story. Ange didn't even had to explain him what she read in that book once she returned.


Why are you quoting japanese text if the original song is in italian? The japanese you quote is a translation, you might as well just quote the english one.

If that's an english translation of a japanese translation of an italian text, please forget about that already! The more passages you make the farther you get from the real meaning.

here I provided a direct translation: http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1832

Anyway what you quoted is right, except precisely because Battler doesn't want the truth to be known he sealed it in that book. You seem to ignore the fact that that book in the chapel is sealed and Battler didn't want Ange to read it. Instead the happy and joyous story he wants to use to protect Beatrice is what he shows.