2012-08-08, 07:06 | Link #61 | ||
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With soldier casualties as well as with SAO deaths, all you need to do is show pictures or videos of the casualties/victims from when they were still active and alive in the real world, and that'll bring the situation home to many viewers. Sure, people will feel very detached from what's going on in a VR MMO, but people also tend to feel very detached from something going on half-a-world away. Quote:
I'm not saying that the SAO situation is exactly the same as the war in Iraq, in every respect. Of course it's not. What I am saying is that the Japanese would continue to feel it in a way similar to how the Americans felt the war in Iraq. That's the limits of my comparison. Anything beyond that would indeed be off, if not way off.
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2012-08-08, 09:24 | Link #62 | |
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Which brings up another thing that muddles the issue. One player can attack another to frighten them into giving up their items, without intending to kill them. If the victim is then killed by monsters, or accidentally killed due to underestimating the level difference you can't really charge the culprit with premeditated murder. |
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2012-08-08, 09:44 | Link #63 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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2012-08-08, 10:06 | Link #65 | ||
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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It'd also shut down the entire online gaming world down overnight, as no company can afford to even think about their liability. |
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2012-08-08, 11:55 | Link #67 | |
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The difference between murder and manslaughter is premeditation. In the case you refer to, if someone frightened another player into giving up items which resulted in their death; it's going to depend on where it took place. If it's the middle of the dungeon, you're looking at murder (as I've taken steps that I know will result in your death). If it's in town, that's another story.
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Last edited by lightsenshi; 2012-08-08 at 12:08. |
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2012-08-08, 11:58 | Link #68 |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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i pretty sure in most states in the US there is law on the books where during the course of a crime and someone dies as a result of it (intentional or not) the person(s) who committed the crime can charge for the death.
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2012-08-08, 12:10 | Link #69 | |
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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TBH, if you really want, go study a bit about the CJ system and how laws and statutes are actually applied IRL, this is really basic stuff. Actually, SAO is primarily non-consensual PVP, with duels added on top of it. The vast majority of the world is open to PVP with no restriction. |
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2012-08-08, 12:14 | Link #70 |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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i think the law is vague on the subject of virtual property and crime, mostly because the laws haven't caught up the tech. If the issue is important enough and Murder is important, that type of question would end in front of the Supreme Court.
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2012-08-08, 12:25 | Link #71 | |
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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And no, the Supreme Court does not make new laws, it can only interpret and rule on existing ones. Anything that would govern virtual items in the future is going to have to come from the Legislature. |
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2012-08-08, 12:31 | Link #72 | ||
Not Enough Sleep
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2012-08-08, 12:33 | Link #73 | ||
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Otherwise, if you're just going to go around in circles on this "there aren't any laws about this", there won't really be anything to discuss. It's not like anyone's actually going to court here. We can only really talk about what we think the laws should be.
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2012-08-08, 12:59 | Link #74 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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- disagree with me on the fact it's obvious in one breath - claim Kayaba is responsible isn't in the next - and then turn around and say he isn't in the last. Which brings me back to: it's not obvious. At least, it's possible PKing would be murder but Kayabe wouldn't be the one charged with it. |
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2012-08-08, 13:28 | Link #75 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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Odds are fairly good that if the game was cleared and everyone was let go all at once (as Kayaba's tutorial in ep1 suggests) then there would need to be some very, very frantic discussions very fast when the truth came to light. |
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2012-08-08, 13:40 | Link #76 | |
Not Enough Sleep
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2012-08-08, 13:48 | Link #77 | |||
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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And yes, the prosecutor may very well be pressured into filing charges by stretching existing statutes, but it's something they don't really like to do, as those tends to blow up in their face as the court just goes and then Take the case of Megan Meier for example. There was no cyber-bullying laws in the state at the time, but the prosecutor was obviously under tremendous pressure to charge the adult perpetrator, so he went after her with computer fraud instead, and it was thrown out in the end. The court is not just there to mete out justice and punishment, but they're also there to follow and protect the rule of law, even if doing so means justice may not be served in a particular case. Quote:
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Well, the way the question was original framed was what would happen if this happened for real as the passage of laws are generally reactionary, combined with ex post facto, there's really no plausible scenario where SAO players would get charged for what happened in-game (among other reasons). Post SAO however, there will be some fun days in many nation's legislative bodies about what to do with future incidents should something similar occurs, but simply trying to apply RL world laws in SAO would open up so many loopholes and would have such broad implications across so many fields that it could never be seriously considered. |
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2012-08-08, 13:48 | Link #78 | |||
18782+18782=37564
Join Date: Sep 2010
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This is clearly different from what happens in SAO, so I differentiate them. In SAO, I think what Kayaba could clearly be responsible for is for tricking the users unknowingly into a death game. He's responsible for not mentioning it in the User Agreement. Even then, this would be shaky I guess. Laws are strange like that.
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Last edited by erneiz_hyde; 2012-08-08 at 13:58. |
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2012-08-08, 14:56 | Link #79 |
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There are three questions here. I'll assume that Kayaba was not lying about death in SAO leading to real death.
1) Is PKing in SAO morally equivalent to murder? It's fairly clear that it is. Some PKers seem to like to claim that they don't believe that dying in the game means dying in real life, but it seems likely that this is an excuse. 2) Is PKing in SAO legally equivalent to murder? This is a trickier question. Normally, PKing is equivalent to beating someone in a tennis match. In this case Kayaba has done the equivalent of saying that he will kill anyone who looses a match, and here, have some rackets and balls. Who's legally responsible for people dying would require someone who knows more law than I do. 3) How practical is it to prosecute PKers? There are a number of significant difficulties involved in trials. Firstly, there is no physical evidence and there is no reason to believe that there would be reliable logs. Secondly, the eye witness testimony would have to be taken significantly after the event in the real world - by which time the witnesses would have had plenty of time to concoct stories if they want (in RL they'd be tripped up by physical evidence if they lie). It would be fairly easy to pretend that you don't believe you really killed them. None of these would make it impossible to secure a conviction, but a good defence attourney has lots of openings. In addition, there are other problems. Let's say that the Titan's Hand Guild did not surrender and Kirito ended up killing some. (He can't really argue that he was acting to defend Scilla, as he'd fairly deliberately used her as bait to draw them out.) Kirigaya Kazuto is not a policeman. He is not an agent of a government. Legally, he's a self appointed vigilante/bounty hunter who's just lynched people who can't effectively fight back. |
2012-08-08, 16:01 | Link #80 | |
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