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Kafriel · 2011-11-20, 06:44

^ Pretty much

Chalice offers a hefty MR boost as well though, combined with mercs it will give casters a much harder time harassing you. Truth be told, nobody keeps a chalice end-game, but it serves its purpose well up till mid game.

Tacoshuriken · 2011-11-20, 09:12

I've seen alot of Panth's build Manamune and do pretty well with it, I wouldn't say it's a bad item for him, situational maybe?
I dunno, never played him :x

Duo Maxwell · 2011-11-20, 09:16

I'd say Chalice is enough, with some mp5 rune. With manamune, I never got down below than 80% of my max mana, and that's a sign that it's a waste.
You need to focus more on atk and survivability. Current Pantheon is good with sustain dmg, given his low cd on skill.

DragoonKain3 · 2011-11-20, 09:40

I personally haven't suffered mana problems with pantheon just running mp5 runes (usually on blues since Pantheon lanes against physical majority of the time). If you feel you don't have enough mana, do one or both of these first.

-Get at least 8 in utility for the mana and mana regen masteries
-Start regrowth pendant and go philo stone

Advantage of philo stone is that you get health regen, which is more important than MR since Pantheon will usually fight top (which is ruled by people who can sustain) or bot (as a replacement for the ranged ad carry), both of which is usually physical based damage. Not only that, but philo stone will eventually pay for itself, and its upgrade isn't bad since it gives hp/cdr and a nice MS boost active as well.

Honestly though, Pantheon is strongest at mid-game and falls off late, so I'd rather just go something like brutalizer into BT to take advantage of this. Kinda like leblanc, in that if you don't get ahead early enough, you're going to have problems sooner or later.

Ak3mi · 2011-11-20, 14:04

Just lost my fourth game today, because of a Ashe or a Annie player over feeding to a Master Yi :'( did not end well.

His attack speed was something insane and I could only go against him when he was by himself and I had red buff/blue buff with my ultimate up, as Shaco. I wasn't even that well fed, 5/2/6.
The Ashe score was 10/23/1....was pretty insane that he/she just kept going.

Kafriel · 2011-11-20, 16:12

Lols @ 23 deaths...as Shaco, you want to drag/harass the straight-forward dps champs like Yi, Trynda, Jax etc., it's not too hard to confuse them...just don't do the obvious (like using skills when your clone is getting focused, sheen glow betrays the real you, as do jungle buffs), and since Yis tend to have glass cannon builds, thornmail is a very good counter to their lifesteal shenanigans. Frozen heart is also a good option, in these cases.

Jungling Q: can anyone start with Lizard and survive?

Xacual · 2011-11-20, 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Lols @ 23 deaths...as Shaco, you want to drag/harass the straight-forward dps champs like Yi, Trynda, Jax etc., it's not too hard to confuse them...just don't do the obvious (like using skills when your clone is getting focused, sheen glow betrays the real you, as do jungle buffs), and since Yis tend to have glass cannon builds, thornmail is a very good counter to their lifesteal shenanigans. Frozen heart is also a good option, in these cases.

Jungling Q: can anyone start with Lizard and survive?

I think you misread, the ashe on his team had 23 deaths.

Hooves · 2011-11-20, 17:43

I'm excited for the next match with Epik Gaming vs Solo Mid which is coming at 6:00 EST from what the announcement said

Spartanz1170 · 2011-11-20, 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hooves

I'm excited for the next match with Epik Gaming vs Solo Mid which is coming at 6:00 EST from what the announcement said

My bet is on Epik winning the first game

Hooves · 2011-11-20, 18:14

Solo Mid won with a 3-0 streak. I was surprised that Epik didn't ban Yorick or Maokai since they seem to be the MVP champions of the games with their teleport, the massive tankiness, and the stun from Maokai. Alongside Solo Mid's great pushing method gave them such a huge lead in gold. I'm shocked that Solo Mid just obliterated Epik Gaming, great play.

DragoonKain3 · 2011-11-20, 23:50

I'm a Dan Dinh fan, so sad with the loss. But honestly, they pretty much picked crap comps.

Game 1: Rammus + Singed + Taric + Zilean = much less damage than they should have, as they're putting all their damage on vayne. Ryze gets frozen heart as a core item, and Vayne just gots 20% less effective, on top of Maokai ult.

Game 2: TSM got Vayne/Yorick, and Vayne just outlanes most melee when having support. Sona/Kennen combo gets defeated by Maokai ult, as that 20% less damage on the entire team really REALLY put a difference.

Game 3: AoE comp vs Maokai ult... didn't they learn second game? That, and a lack of iniator really hurt them, when Leblanc is free to poke and retreat with impunity.

Meh, just glad that Dignitas didn't advance to the finals.

Kafriel · 2011-11-21, 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xacual

I think you misread, the ashe on his team had 23 deaths.

Nah I read it right, it's just that I've never seen anyone feed more than 12~15 times in the same game.

As for the tourneys, ban Maokai next time :P So, when are the finals?

Xacual · 2011-11-21, 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Nah I read it right, it's just that I've never seen anyone feed more than 12~15 times in the same game.

As for the tourneys, ban Maokai next time :P So, when are the finals?

I've seen some really abysmal scores which I guess is the main reason I don't play normal or ranked games ever. I'm pretty average so I'm not going to act like I'm good in anyway but I at least won't run into a group of 2+ enemy champs. Had a game recently where our Riven was at enemy side of river, Renekton and I(playing Sona) were at the opposite side of river, in Mid so think about tower to tower distance. He engaged enemy group and then complained that we didn't engage with him. I was like what? We were too far away when you initiated.

That kind of stuff is really common for me and it saps all my enthusiasm for playing against other players.

Eisdrache · 2011-11-21, 04:31

Who bans Maokai -_- Also that Sona kill was hilarious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kafriel

As for the tourneys, ban Maokai next time :P So, when are the finals?

The finals were TSM vs EG with TSM winning 3-0.

Unrelated: If you're playing support and got boots lvl2, 2x GP/10, Aegis and maybe a Shurelia, what item do you get next if the other team is mostly AP? Or do you try to get something that's more beneficial to your own team like Soul Shroud?

Kafriel · 2011-11-21, 05:03

Really depends on the champion you got...and the champions you're facing. Your options vary, you may need extra penetration so as not to be neglected, bonus AP to contribute with AoE spells and heals, provided you have any, more HP/defence if you get burst down, QSS for stunlocks/permaslows, or extra CC if your enemies are too fast/shielded.
For example, as Sona, I'd finish DFG and get an abyssal scepter - the bonus MR would be good defence against an AP team, and the bonus AP would help kill them faster, since most casters tend to build offensively. After that, it all comes down to whether you're winning or losing; when winning, you build more AP (WotA, deathcap, all kinds of things), if you're losing you'd probably invest in survivability instead.

Tacoshuriken · 2011-11-21, 20:19

Also wards. Lots and lots and lots of wards.
Many wards, left side, right side HANDLE IT. (obscure jokes!)

Anyway, anyone familiar with Udyr at all? I've been building wriggles > merc treads > trinity force > wits end and I dunno if I'm doing it right?

Hooves · 2011-11-21, 20:56

I was thinking of giving Udyr a shot, but I haven't played him yet so I don't know sadly.

Maokai seems to be an extremely aggressive tank laner if you're up against two melee. Was laning with Ashe against Xin Zhao and Jarven VI, and I just ate all the damage like it was nothing and let Ashe poke at them. Having teleport allowed me to easily swoop around the map and save teammates when they are losing (Gangplank was about to kill Alistair before I came in from top to bot lane with teleport). Overall, Maokai is very tanky and can get in everyone's face + the ability to support his team very well + the ability to knock off some health from enemies if built right..

Or maybe that's because I was laning with two melee?

Kotohono · 2011-11-21, 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tacoshuriken

Anyway, anyone familiar with Udyr at all? I've been building wriggles > merc treads > trinity force > wits end and I dunno if I'm doing it right?

I think that's the right way for "tiger" udyr, but phoenix plays differently, I've seen him itemize a lot of different ways though.

DragoonKain3 · 2011-11-22, 00:02

Jungle-wise...

Phoenix Udyr doesn't need wriggles. Wit's End is all the damage he needs, then tanky (Aegis/Randuins/Force of Nature, take your pick) with triforce in the end. All assuming you have at least AS marks.

Tiger Udyr on the otherhand is pretty much dependent on wriggles. You don't build wit's end on him though, as he already has ridiculously high AS and he'd gain more from AD so his tiger proc does more damage as well.

My main Tiger build is to go wriggles, boots 1, heart of gold, and merc treads as core, then Warden's mail --> randuins, negatron --> Force of Nature, and/or bf sword --> bloodthrister depending on what I need.

Now I'm experimenting with wriggles, boots 1, philo stone, merc treads, glacial shroud/negatron, then shurelyas for a full CDR build once I upgrade to frozen heart. MUCH less dependent on blue, so I don't feel as bad giving blue to my ap carry, and its so much easier initiating. Thing is, shurelyas does take an item slot and you're more susceptible to mid-game AP burst.

Kafriel · 2011-11-22, 00:38

^ Why was I under the impression that Udyr builds Madred's?

Quote:

Also wards. Lots and lots and lots of wards.
Many wards, left side, right side HANDLE IT.

Yeah, it's up to the support to hand out the ward cash, don't be afraid to buy six of them and spend the next two minutes setting them up across runeterra.

2011-11-20, 09:12	Link #1482
Tacoshuriken Tasty Ninja Weapon Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: The edge of reality... Age: 31	I've seen alot of Panth's build Manamune and do pretty well with it, I wouldn't say it's a bad item for him, situational maybe? I dunno, never played him :x __________________

2011-11-20, 09:16	Link #1483
Duo Maxwell A Proud Lolicon Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: In front of my computer Age: 37	I'd say Chalice is enough, with some mp5 rune. With manamune, I never got down below than 80% of my max mana, and that's a sign that it's a waste. You need to focus more on atk and survivability. Current Pantheon is good with sustain dmg, given his low cd on skill. __________________

2011-11-20, 09:40	Link #1484
DragoonKain3 Osana-Najimi Shipper Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Mt. Ordeals	I personally haven't suffered mana problems with pantheon just running mp5 runes (usually on blues since Pantheon lanes against physical majority of the time). If you feel you don't have enough mana, do one or both of these first. -Get at least 8 in utility for the mana and mana regen masteries -Start regrowth pendant and go philo stone Advantage of philo stone is that you get health regen, which is more important than MR since Pantheon will usually fight top (which is ruled by people who can sustain) or bot (as a replacement for the ranged ad carry), both of which is usually physical based damage. Not only that, but philo stone will eventually pay for itself, and its upgrade isn't bad since it gives hp/cdr and a nice MS boost active as well. Honestly though, Pantheon is strongest at mid-game and falls off late, so I'd rather just go something like brutalizer into BT to take advantage of this. Kinda like leblanc, in that if you don't get ahead early enough, you're going to have problems sooner or later. __________________ Yes its YOU childhood friend - source of BERZERKER RAGE since forever Childhood Friend couple STATISTICS(spoilers abound though)

2011-11-20, 14:04	Link #1485
Ak3mi Tumble Rumble Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Imagination Land Age: 39	Just lost my fourth game today, because of a Ashe or a Annie player over feeding to a Master Yi :'( did not end well. His attack speed was something insane and I could only go against him when he was by himself and I had red buff/blue buff with my ultimate up, as Shaco. I wasn't even that well fed, 5/2/6. The Ashe score was 10/23/1....was pretty insane that he/she just kept going. __________________

2011-11-20, 23:50	Link #1491
DragoonKain3 Osana-Najimi Shipper Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Mt. Ordeals	I'm a Dan Dinh fan, so sad with the loss. But honestly, they pretty much picked crap comps. Game 1: Rammus + Singed + Taric + Zilean = much less damage than they should have, as they're putting all their damage on vayne. Ryze gets frozen heart as a core item, and Vayne just gots 20% less effective, on top of Maokai ult. Game 2: TSM got Vayne/Yorick, and Vayne just outlanes most melee when having support. Sona/Kennen combo gets defeated by Maokai ult, as that 20% less damage on the entire team really REALLY put a difference. Game 3: AoE comp vs Maokai ult... didn't they learn second game? That, and a lack of iniator really hurt them, when Leblanc is free to poke and retreat with impunity. Meh, just glad that Dignitas didn't advance to the finals. __________________ Yes its YOU childhood friend - source of BERZERKER RAGE since forever Childhood Friend couple STATISTICS(spoilers abound though)

2011-11-20, 06:44	Link #1481
Kafriel Senior Guest Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Athens (GMT+2) Age: 35	^ Pretty much Chalice offers a hefty MR boost as well though, combined with mercs it will give casters a much harder time harassing you. Truth be told, nobody keeps a chalice end-game, but it serves its purpose well up till mid game.

2011-11-20, 16:12	Link #1486
Kafriel Senior Guest Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Athens (GMT+2) Age: 35	Lols @ 23 deaths...as Shaco, you want to drag/harass the straight-forward dps champs like Yi, Trynda, Jax etc., it's not too hard to confuse them...just don't do the obvious (like using skills when your clone is getting focused, sheen glow betrays the real you, as do jungle buffs), and since Yis tend to have glass cannon builds, thornmail is a very good counter to their lifesteal shenanigans. Frozen heart is also a good option, in these cases. Jungling Q: can anyone start with Lizard and survive?

2011-11-21, 05:03	Link #1495
Kafriel Senior Guest Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Athens (GMT+2) Age: 35	Really depends on the champion you got...and the champions you're facing. Your options vary, you may need extra penetration so as not to be neglected, bonus AP to contribute with AoE spells and heals, provided you have any, more HP/defence if you get burst down, QSS for stunlocks/permaslows, or extra CC if your enemies are too fast/shielded. For example, as Sona, I'd finish DFG and get an abyssal scepter - the bonus MR would be good defence against an AP team, and the bonus AP would help kill them faster, since most casters tend to build offensively. After that, it all comes down to whether you're winning or losing; when winning, you build more AP (WotA, deathcap, all kinds of things), if you're losing you'd probably invest in survivability instead.

2011-11-21, 20:19	Link #1496
Tacoshuriken Tasty Ninja Weapon Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: The edge of reality... Age: 31	Also wards. Lots and lots and lots of wards. Many wards, left side, right side HANDLE IT. (obscure jokes!) Anyway, anyone familiar with Udyr at all? I've been building wriggles > merc treads > trinity force > wits end and I dunno if I'm doing it right? __________________

2011-11-22, 00:02	Link #1499
DragoonKain3 Osana-Najimi Shipper Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Mt. Ordeals	Jungle-wise... Phoenix Udyr doesn't need wriggles. Wit's End is all the damage he needs, then tanky (Aegis/Randuins/Force of Nature, take your pick) with triforce in the end. All assuming you have at least AS marks. Tiger Udyr on the otherhand is pretty much dependent on wriggles. You don't build wit's end on him though, as he already has ridiculously high AS and he'd gain more from AD so his tiger proc does more damage as well. My main Tiger build is to go wriggles, boots 1, heart of gold, and merc treads as core, then Warden's mail --> randuins, negatron --> Force of Nature, and/or bf sword --> bloodthrister depending on what I need. Now I'm experimenting with wriggles, boots 1, philo stone, merc treads, glacial shroud/negatron, then shurelyas for a full CDR build once I upgrade to frozen heart. MUCH less dependent on blue, so I don't feel as bad giving blue to my ap carry, and its so much easier initiating. Thing is, shurelyas does take an item slot and you're more susceptible to mid-game AP burst. __________________ Yes its YOU childhood friend - source of BERZERKER RAGE since forever Childhood Friend couple STATISTICS(spoilers abound though)