2011-02-25, 08:11 | Link #3182 |
Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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About Jessica and Yasu:
http://shroedinger.deviantart.com/ga...34664#/d2w76vp I'm not sure if debating about whether Lion or Yasu are the same or not makes much difference to the end result, some things in between just need to be explained differently. That's why I wanted to say that there is a possibility for their connection to be a bit different than assumed. At least it would save Yasu from incest if she isn't actually related. Though that might also be a reason for her getting desperate. But if she learned about her heritage when she solved the epitaph, why would she approach George then? It might not matter at all. Not that Kanon and Shannon being the same has actually been set in stone either, but I think it is safest to assume that at least that much is true. When using Shkanon as a key to solve the murders, the issue I'm most concerned about is EP2 second twilight. That's the one episode where either of them is announced separately dead while the game is still in progress. What kind of trick enables Shannon to be alive while it is announced dead with the red truth Kanon was killed in this room at the moment they're investigating Jessica's room? Either Shkanon isn't true (for that episode only?), someone else is posing as Shannon or there's something fishy with the red truth. A theory I read was a theory which I do not doubt you haven't already heard that the epitaph murders are a fake murder mystery set up by Yasu. Indeed that goes well with the fake murders in both EP5 and 6. So, the red truth is actually just going according to the rules of the game, where faking "dead" people are dead by the rules of the game, and can be announced dead with the red truth. I'm not sure if I like that theory, for it looks like plain cheating from the author's part, but it might actually go well with the theme so I'll probably try using it in my thinking. This does clear the dead-end of EP2 second twilight. Actually, there are no tricks in Episodes 1-4 which use Shkanon to dodge the red, so it might actually be respectful to the rules. It is only misused in EP6 to solve Battler's closed room. So what the "not being mystery" meant, might be that it was not done according to the rules of the game, where Shannon and Kanon are separate people. I see, this might actually be a good theory. Though Clair seemed much more hateful or desperate in EP7 than a game like this would suggest. Lambdadelta lent a certain power to Yasu, making her a witch for two days? So Lambdadelta is the bomb, "the promised reaper"? |
2011-02-25, 08:51 | Link #3183 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Where you're not.
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2011-02-25, 09:17 | Link #3184 | |
非合理の魔女
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Germany
Age: 36
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2011-02-25, 09:20 | Link #3185 | ||
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: With the runaways
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or maybe it was the storm seperating the island, or perhaps on the metaphorical level as yasu developing an unwavering convuction Quote:
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2011-02-25, 11:10 | Link #3186 | |
Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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I do know about personality death, it goes to the something fishy with the red truth department as well. So what I meant to say I was using Shkanon to try solve the mysteries without using the normal personality death concept.
I was just telling about a different idea, where personality death is not just about Yasu being allowed to somehow kill his own personalities, but that it goes with some kind of ruleset, where Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice are ultimately regarded as different entities. The normal concept of personality death feels like the personalities somehow disappear forever, so that they are dead by the red truth. But can something like a personality completely disappearing whenever the person wishes to really happen? It sounds like cheating to me. Red truth is only true if you believe in it, if you believe in the rules. Only the actor can kill the character. That's what the personalities are to Yasu, characters. I don't believe that she just wakes up some morning randomly thinking she's Kanon. She acknowledges the problem arising from loving too many people, not thinking Kanon can separate from Shannon to hook up with Jessica. She can apparently kill the characters in her story when she wants to. But in this case the red must have some kind of exception, because if you regard Shannon and Kanon as names of the same person, wouldn't both of them die when that person dies? So I think the red must be truths that go along with the rules Yasu created. And in the rules, Shannon and Kanon are separate people she uses as pieces on her gameboard. It feels funny though, as isn't them being separate people the basic setting, and not some kind of secret to reveal? I think you can agree that Shkanon isn't needed to solve the howdunnit in EP1-4 at all. It is the key to singling out the culprit in whodunnit, and ultimately the whydunnit, which is why Yasu left in clues of her actual situation. The goal is not to have someone solve the epitaph, get revenge on someone or make people experience fear, but to have someone understand her heart. She throws out the message bottles for that goal as well. So the epitaph is just a chance she gave for the Ushiromiya family, but it doesn't make her any happier. There is a duel between Shannon and Kanon, and the one left (usually Shannon) competes with Beatrice in 1986. I think Beatrice wins if Battler manages to solve the crime, otherwise Yasu should go with Jessica or George, usually George. Apparently, that is the reason for the murder game to be set. But actually the bomb is armed and she is left with nobody, except in the Golden Land (afterlife). Maybe Yasu wrote the murder mysteries of the final family conference as kind of love letters to Battler a lot before the incident. She planned to create a fake mystery for when he returns. The event that turns her to furniture makes her desperate, and she decides to abandon everything. Why does Yasu set up a murder mystery anyway, if she was going to kill all of them in the end with the clock device? If the explosion wasn't planned by Yasu, what would be the point of throwing contradicting message bottles to the sea? Why should she murder in a manner of mystery if she always knew of the bomb, and could have only killed them with that? Is she a person to drag everyone with her to destruction? Or is it only the ideal of the Golden Land? Would she actually stop the device if someone was to solve the crime? But seems like it is not a possible future. Even if someone solved the crime, would Yasu show them the gold room, where they don't want to split the gold between 16 people and the shootout starts? And everything is again tried to be covered up by someone with the explosion accident. Or she just wants to cover for herself with the bomb if she actually killed people during the epitaph game, or doesn't want any outsider to understand her, which is against the purpose of the message bottles. Or it all leads to Rokkenjima-Prime having been blown up, so any other kind of result can't be written. But in this case there still should be a plan by Yasu if someone solved the crime. Unless she had totally given up and didn't think anyone could solve it. Which is again against the purpose of the epitaph murders. So was it someone else who planned to kill everyone on the island with the bomb that day? These are things that confuse me. I don't know how much of my rambling above made sense. Quote:
Also your last items might pose a problem against my theory of their separation. Though them not allowed to be in separate places due to the red is somewhat of a given, so I didn't put too much attention on. Something like, the characters Shannon and Kanon must be together unless either of them dies... This really complicates things, as they never appear together due to obvious reasons in the games. This is really some kind of backwards thinking, I know. But you do know what I'm getting at, right? EDIT: In EP6 Kanon recalled memories of his time serving the family during his trip to save Battler from the closed room. Even that gloomy Kanon seemed to find good things about everyone most involved with him. In that light, Clair saying she hates everything feels odd. Though it is not like she hates the people, but the situations she is thrown into. But that is one against killing everyone. Maybe she really believes in the Golden Land, where everyone is happier...? So, as suspected many times before, she isn't the killer but just the culprit in the games. EP7 mood is different though. Well a murderous feeling is what most except, which is then turned around with Battler's "there were no bad people". However, Battler said that's a story just for Ange, which I think EP8 was about? But if it's just for Ange, it might not be any nearer to truth. The book Battler left in Beatrice's coffin is very curious by the way. As Bernkastel declares that there can be no happy ending, not that she should be that much trusted, what is that book with "the best possible truth" for Beatrice? It might not mean that nobody dies, but Yasu might reach her goal, if it's separate from everybody going to the Golden Land. Last edited by Bluemail; 2011-02-25 at 14:07. |
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2011-02-25, 15:31 | Link #3187 | |||||
The True Culprit
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2011-02-25, 16:29 | Link #3188 | ||||
白の魔法使い
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Everything can be explained with Krautsuhi and Nanjotrice.
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I have the faint feeling I've heard that before.
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2011-02-25, 17:00 | Link #3189 | |
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Join Date: May 2009
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One might rip up a sprouting palm tree, if one lives in Minnesota and knows the whole affair will only turn out badly. The problem with claiming the explanation offered is more valid than doubt is that no evidence actually exists to support either. It gets even worse if you step out into the "reality" of the work (R-Prime, or whatever), where no evidence exists at all. One could even be so nihilistic as to say that there is no evidence of the existence of Beatrice-2 or Beatrice Castiglioni... though I would argue there is at least evidence of something to that effect, given the presence of Kuwadorian (which is physical evidence, possibly the only source of it that exists in R-Prime, and which we've not seen in any detail). Still, you can't actually prove that entire branch of the family actually existed. You can prove Yasu existed, and that she believed certain things, and that she wrote certain things down based on what she believed. Note that Yasu herself - at least going on the assumption she only wrote Legend and Turn - only once raises familial issues at all. Everything else - that Kuwadorian exists, Rosa's story, Beatrice-2 herself, testimony as to Yasu's true nature, the existence of a baby, the identification of that baby, the bomb as cause for the explosion, the association of the epitaph with that bomb, who knew about the bomb - is derived from other sources (one assumes, mostly assembled through research or potentially just speculated upon or made up). Arguably, one can claim the things Yasu "believed" to be embellishments themselves. Certainly they're not ridiculous conclusions to draw from what she wrote... but neither are they necessarily gospel, either.
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2011-02-25, 18:29 | Link #3190 | ||
The True Culprit
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2011-02-25, 20:21 | Link #3191 |
twuth it EASY.
Join Date: Jun 2010
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I have yet to read episode 8 and whatever else is told, but could Erika be yasu's shadow/superego/self doubt?
in ep4 she gives up, but doesn't die entirely. She brings up Erika in EP5 to say "This is wrong, this is wrong, wow, I was really bad at this, wasn't I?" Also used to test Battlers knowledge of "the truth" |
2011-02-25, 22:15 | Link #3193 |
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Whether she's anything at all like the character we see is more questionable, though at the very least the parts about her backstory seem like they were drawn from the real person's history.
Meta-Erika, probably not so much.
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2011-02-26, 01:45 | Link #3196 | ||||
Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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At least she wouldn't have gone to Rokkenjima before she was 16-18, so Battler couldn't have made the "promise"? Quote:
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Maybe Kanon's death in EP2 was the result of a love duel like in EP6? Though he was able to move even after that in Dawn, even with the red truth. So Kanon dies because he is no longer needed as a partner to Jessica? I guess that's a somehow plausible root to Kanon dying in red, though still needs to be worked upon. How was Kanon able to move in EP6 then, even after dying in the love duel? He did say he would be by Jessica's side though, so maybe that's why. Still needs more logic... |
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2011-02-26, 02:02 | Link #3197 |
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I really can't buy "it was done on a whim" as a motive for, well, any aspect of a plot.
So what, if she didn't have that whim, there wouldn't be a plot at all, because there'd be no stories and the event would just be shrugged off as an "I'unno lol" moment? Well, that's sure compelling.
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2011-02-26, 02:17 | Link #3198 |
Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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Yeah, that's why it's weird. Well maybe she just wanted to release mystery stories and was too shy to turn them in for some company.
If she didn't plan to use the bomb, why the message bottles? If she did plan to use it, why the mystery game? Clair says she gave everything up to fate. So if nobody solves the mystery or the epitaph, then boom. Something's still wrong with that, and I was supposed to say something but don't remember anymore. |
2011-02-26, 03:45 | Link #3199 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: On nameless island
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Legend: Yasu bet on Kanon
Turn: Yasu bet on Shannon Banquet: Yasu bet on Beatrice Alliance: Beatrice bet on Yasu None of the bets has been realized as she wished, and game lost reason to be. Durning ep6 all bets was in game, and only Kanontice won, because ...I don't know... In other words, Yasu searched way to live in happiness , but could not choose with whom, after Buttler broke promise to Shannon (he was favorite) chances of Shkanon were identical. Battler came back to island, and spoiled plan. Then, she tryed to view herself to him (ep3 Quadorian Beatrice, ep4 Promise), but unsuccessfully, her nature understood that Battler begins love Beatrice, not Yasu/Lion, and decided to disappear forever.
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2011-02-26, 06:36 | Link #3200 | |||||
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Forgive me, but most of what you're saying here is pretty much repeating things we were blatantly told in EP7 or TIPS or something. On an unrelated note, I've had a few thought lately: (1). Lambda saying that Beato "really knows what it means to be the main character" in EP6. While of course this refers to her theatricality and penchant for dramatics, I suddenly thought "Does Beato in the Meta-World aso know that she's a character in the story WE'RE reading?" More meta, mind blown, etc. (2). I havent read EP8 yet (as I only read plain ol' English), but what I understand of the ending made me really really sad. Then I got Virgilia's lesson about the broken vase from rereading EP3, and in that light, I felt a bit better about the ending. (3). About Lion as Clare's salvation - well ... basically, assuming all the info we got concernin Yasu's origin is correct, then I ended the episode thinking that "Lion doesn't exist. He only exists in fiction. That is, to say, he exists about as much as, say, Erika exists. However, he still works as a dream for Clare by being the abstract possibility that her life wasn't simply DESTINED to suck. Some 'witch' wrote a game where she lives happily as Lion, and the very consideration of hat possibility is what makes Clare happy. It's a statistical miracle simply because the witches ALOST NEVER tell a version of Rokkenjima where Yasu lives happily as Lion, since they much prefer their murder-meido-cliff-baby version of events. However, Bern's Tea-Party shenanigans represent the fandom-dickery that even in a fiction where Lion existed, and was happy, people STILL shoehorned in the Rokkenjima murders to give that novel a sad ending, plot holes be damned. Will, he who ensures the sanctity of mysteries, tells Lion to fight on and "be a miracle" - encouraging him to fight for his right to exist. That is, fight to become firm in the minds of the people writing versions of Rokkenjima, so they'll more often write "Happy Lion" worlds, like they similarlly seem to more often write "Super Detective" Erika worlds. Let Erika exist where you want to violently seek 'truth'. Let Lion exist where you want to allow Yasu's happiness. Something like that - that's where my thoughts currently are, trying to configure everything into a new, literary light. As stated, I havent read EP8, just the summaries, but that's where my thinking is. ... ... thoughts? |
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