International Saimoe League 2008 - The Best of the Best

[minhtam1638]

Originally Posted by cicido

Also, I saw a thread of this contest in /a/ where anons nominates tokyo crystal mew character LOL

Yeah, I discarded all of them except Ichigo, to which I gave only 1 point after a slew of them. Reason was that it definitely looked like multi-voting through a proxy. This was before I updated the script to include a "forwarding for" variable to detect the real IPs.

And also, when I did a background check on them, Ichigo was the only one who passed the profile check - the others didn't seem to be real characters to me.


EDIT: Website has been updated with Eri Sawachika's individual profile and schedule as well as headings for 6 other competitors.

[Kinny Riddle]

Congratulations to minhtam on setting this up. Here's hoping the best.

Your concept of drawing seeds from the recent tournaments, as well as putting weightings on character nominations could well show which characters and series have better staying power with their "mojo", is not a bad one. This frees characters from the bound of time, besides the nomination deadline, for time is the best indicator of whether a character/series is a "classic" or just a "fad".

Running a league format means tonnes of matches everyday, this means voters would only pick and choose to follow their girls, so do be prepared for low voter turnout caused by voter fatigue.

What are the risks of unglamarous matches having ridiculously low turnouts (less than 50), and the winner gets the scorn of not having enough of a "mandate"? Or even in extreme cases, turnout is zero?

And have you considered running the tournament around the same time as the Japanese and Korean Saimoes to boost turnout? Having so many similar tournaments all-year round is enough to exhaust your average die-hard supporter. Despite their vocal presence, Hikkikomori NEETs only make up a small number, the majority still have lives to live.

Originally Posted by Lyn Shaoran

Hello everyone...I'm Italian boy...pleasure to meet you!
I voted this name...is correct???



ehehe...I hope that Ren will pass the turn ehhee!!
Ren Nanase is the Best girl for everyone

No offence, Lyn Shaoran, but I LOL'ed, knowing that the characters come from a rather "shitty" game/series. (Literally. )

Anyway, since ero-game characters are barred, I suppose any visual novel character, whether it be ero or not, are barred as well? And I guess print-media like mangas and light novels are out of the question.

And while we're at it, is there no chance for the Vocaloid Girls: Hatsune Miku, and Kagamine Rin? (Or even their brother, Kagamine Ren, who looks "feminine" enough. )

[Psieye]

Anyway, since ero-game characters are barred, I suppose any visual novel character, whether it be ero or not, are barred as well?

General rule of thumb I interpret is that if it has a non-H anime adaptation, then it's qualified. So yeah, you're probably thinking of characters the anime-only audience doesn't even know of yet.

Wuch... I so want to nominate Schwer-Muta but there's no way she's elligible ^^;;

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle

Anyway, since ero-game characters are barred, I suppose any visual novel character, whether it be ero or not, are barred as well? And I guess print-media like mangas and light novels are out of the question.

And while we're at it, is there no chance for the Vocaloid Girls: Hatsune Miku, and Kagamine Rin? (Or even their brother, Kagamine Ren, who looks "feminine" enough. )

I don't think eroge characters are barred specifically, rather they put an absolute "from anime" rule.
Therefore, it will be hard for VN characters to be included.
I believe it is also rather a technical issue, as the amount of Vn and eroge is... well nearly infinitisimal? Would be absurdly horrible of VN players begin to list their moe chars, which might lead to a complete chaos in term of check and all XD

but good find for the vocaloid representants, they sure deserve a special treatment considering their impact. Seconded !

[minhtam1638]

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle

Congratulations to minhtam on setting this up. Here's hoping the best.

Your concept of drawing seeds from the recent tournaments, as well as putting weightings on character nominations could well show which characters and series have better staying power with their "mojo", is not a bad one. This frees characters from the bound of time, besides the nomination deadline, for time is the best indicator of whether a character/series is a "classic" or just a "fad".

Why, thank you.

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle

Running a league format means tonnes of matches everyday, this means voters would only pick and choose to follow their girls, so do be prepared for low voter turnout caused by voter fatigue.

What are the risks of unglamarous matches having ridiculously low turnouts (less than 50), and the winner gets the scorn of not having enough of a "mandate"? Or even in extreme cases, turnout is zero?

I did take possible voter fatigue into account. Hence I tried to set up the schedule so that the big-name matchups are on Thursdays, Fridays, and Saturdays. For the early half of the week, I tried to add in as many potential blow out matches as possible. This may work out great, leaving the hikkimori NEETs to deal with the blow out matches and giving the others a little break, or it could backfire, seeing as how I partially based the schedule on Shana by giving her the "FANVOTE" matches on Mondays.

And because this is the first year, my goal for turnout is really low - 500.

As for unglamorous matches, I know for a fact that we WILL have unglamourous matches, especially as we head toward the end of the regular season: where as the predicted #4 Shana vs. #14 Suiseiseki match could garner thousands of votes, #48 Tsuruya vs. #55 Touka would be expected to have only 50.

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle

And have you considered running the tournament around the same time as the Japanese and Korean Saimoes to boost turnout? Having so many similar tournaments all-year round is enough to exhaust your average die-hard supporter. Despite their vocal presence, Hikkikomori NEETs only make up a small number, the majority still have lives to live.

Wow, you may be on to something.

I was thinking somewhat in the opposite direction, that trying to keep track of three SaiMoe tournaments at once is enough to double voter's fatigue, but I believe you may be right. I will consider re-adjusting the schedule so that we can go with three-days a week, giving voters time to rest and me to officially tally the results, put them on the website, and so-on.

I do have to release a test poll to the public, so I will use your statement to do a vote on whether we should spread the schedule out to give the voters some relief.

The first match will still take place on February 28, and the featured match will still be Hinagiku vs. Shana. However, if the voters do vote that we should spread the schedule out, I will do a major rescheduling, which shouldn't be too much of a problem, and now that I have a clear vision of who exactly will take the fanvote slots, I can adjust it so that they can have big name matchups on Saturdays as well. Just keep note that matchups will not change - just the dates (i.e. S.O.S vs. Kugimiya will stay intact).

I will take your statements into serious consideration, look at possible options, and will present them tonight.

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle

Anyway, since ero-game characters are barred, I suppose any visual novel character, whether it be ero or not, are barred as well? And I guess print-media like mangas and light novels are out of the question.

And while we're at it, is there no chance for the Vocaloid Girls: Hatsune Miku, and Kagamine Rin? (Or even their brother, Kagamine Ren, who looks "feminine" enough. )

I didn't say that. All girls nominated that I personally have never heard of will undergo a background check to make sure that they exist and that they have a reason why they would be considered moe. Night Shift Nurse is barred because there was no background story behind the girls I was researching - just that they like to do the kadunk kadunk.

If the girl is within the anime and has a sufficient background that I can allow the girl to enter, then yes, the girl is qualified.

[Psieye]

Kinny was discussing characters who have never been in a Movie, OVA or TV-ep. You are thinking "characters who have an origin in Visual Novels etc, but who have an anime adaptation".

Well ok, Kinny's wording is somewhat ambiguous but I'm sure he's thinking of Visual Novel girls who don't have an anime adaptation yet. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Kinny Riddle]

I don't really mind VN (or light novel) characters without anime adaptations not being included, because, let's face it, how many VN players are there outside Japan? And how many would really know these obscure characters before they're given the anime treatment? (Unless you're a character from a big studio like KEY) I'd say 30-50 for the whole planet at best, and even that figure is stretched.

Manga could be trickier, as it's more widespread outside Japan than visual novels and light novels.

My concern is more with whether Miku and Rin (and Ren) could be eligible. As this could trigger another timebomb: Mainstream console game characters. Especially the RPG ones: Final Fantasy, Tales Of, Star Ocean, etc.

[minhtam1638]

Okay, it didn't take long for me to think at all. Kinny Riddle's statements make sense. Here's my proposed plan:

There will still be 32 matches per match days, as I can take care of tallying all of them, but if you guys are willing, I will cut the number of matches per week from 6 to 3 or 4. This will extend the schedule by at most ten more weeks, and the regular season will end by the last week of August, therefore having the prestigious post-season tournament in September - October, about the same time Saimoe Japan and Korea Best Moe end.

The first match set (Hinagiku vs. Shana) will still take place on February 28. Afterwards, matches will be aligned through Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays. As I would like to see the Shana vs. Suiseiseki season closer on a Saturday, there will be no match on Easter Saturday and the preceding Thursday. (I'm Roman Catholic, so I have to go to church on those nights, therefore unable to tally final results.)

Nomination status will NOT be affected: They will still end on February 14.

I've taken the pros and cons of this proposal and have listed them below:

Pros -
1. As a university student, I don't have to be a hikkimori to run this tournament the way I originally planned. With alternating match dates so that there is at least 26 hours between each match, I can have time to tally results, update the website with standings and scores between every match instead of Sunday like I had planned, and I can still have time to actually do my university homework and go out to the movies! Talk about relief of stress!

2. With the three days per week schedule, there is some increased flexibility. Say that for the Haruhi vs. Shana match set, I have to go to a funeral away from home. In this case, I would have to move that match set all the way to the end of the schedule, which could change the dynamics of the league. With the new flexible system, I can either move matches a day ahead or a day behind without having it totally affect the league.

3. With bye dates in between match dates, voters will have the time to stock up, relax, get everything ready for the next match, and so on. Voters will not have to come by everyday - rather, they will have time to do the things they want now that the matches will be on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays.

4. There could possibly be increased voter turnout during the second half of the season, due to the influence of Saimoe Japan and Korea Best Moe. Once they get word of this, it's going to be big city, big time.

5. There were a LOT of match sets that I wanted to run on Saturdays, and I ran out of them. With this proposed plan, more marquee matchups will garner attention on weekends, therefore having a good turnout.

Cons -
1. Slowness. Saimoe tournaments usually take about... four months, I believe. With this proposed plan, the International Saimoe League can take as long as eight months to decide who should be Saimoe Champion of the world. This can be a pro, as it adds the element of endurance to this competition, but I'm more concerned about voters being anxious and impatient. But 24 weeks? Hopefully, it won't be a problem.

2. Although there would be increased voter turnout, some voters may be distracted by Saimoe and Best Moe and turn away from the International. I don't know if it is a huge concern, but that is a concern. It can also turn out to be a huge pro, since I did hear that 2chan may be blocking international participation this year...

But yes, here's my proposed plan, and if the majority of you guys here decide to go with it, I will make the arrangements to change it. Let me know by tonight so I can update the website.

[Psieye]

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle

My concern is more with whether Miku and Rin (and Ren) could be eligible. As this could trigger another timebomb: Mainstream console game characters. Especially the RPG ones: Final Fantasy, Tales Of, Star Ocean, etc.

Touhou. For the sake of sanity, we may as well limit it to "has anime" and leave it at that. Ummu, and you were simply concerned at "these charas are from H-game (which got animated) so aren't elligible" but minhtam was saying "these charas have no characterisation at all, ultra-flat cardboard cutouts are not allowed"


Ok now as for minhtam's proposal...

Dude, you were planning on Hikkikomori'ing for the entire duration of the League to get this done? I don't know about you, but I was vaguely hoping you'd reserve enough stamina to consider staying active in Saimoe activities (whether that means doing the League all over again next year is an entirely different matter...). I know I'm having to seriously re-think how I'll keep up with Saimoe stuff this year (I'm gonna have to write Python scripts to do all the data formatting at the least) as last year was hard on me.

So yes, go for the 24 week plan. I don't know about voter fatigue but all this is useless if we get admin fatigue.

[minhtam1638]

Originally Posted by Psieye

Dude, you were planning on Hikkikomori'ing for the entire duration of the League to get this done? I don't know about you, but I was vaguely hoping you'd reserve enough stamina to consider staying active in Saimoe activities (whether that means doing the League all over again next year is an entirely different matter...). I know I'm having to seriously re-think how I'll keep up with Saimoe stuff this year (I'm gonna have to write Python scripts to do all the data formatting at the least) as last year was hard on me.

So yes, go for the 24 week plan. I don't know about voter fatigue but all this is useless if we get admin fatigue.

Aw, heck no, I was kidding about Hikkikomoriing for the entire Saimoe League, but after Kinny Riddle posted his message, I looked at the schedule again, and I realized that it would take a good chunk of time and I would be fatigued, not to mention that I planned the schedule and didn't take Easter into account.

[OverFunk]

Let's see at a rate of 3 matchdays per week, we'll reach the 63 in 21 weeks, approx. 5 months...

I have another proposal, but you might not like it.

One huge group of 64 makes it really hard to keep stats and everything. And apparently you will count most matches.

I think it could be a nice idea to make 4 groups of 16, then having the best 4 of each group to have a 16 final round held the same way.

To complete a group of 16, you'd need 15 matchdays, that'd be 5 weeks on the schedule. Then for the last one, it'd be another 5 weeks, totalling at least 10 weeks to complete the season. Half time to complete. And that final round would be more epic than the big group.

I know you want to have every match as possble, but maybe 64C2 is somewhat to big of a number... It feels that there will be many uninteresting matches...

If you keep 4 groups like that, it'll be easier to keep stats. Also, you can get someone else to manage a group, relieving stress on you. Moe is not really something you'd want to spend most of your time anyway, right?

Numbers:
The number of matches on your system is 63*32=2016, plus whatever you want to do post season.

This idea has 4*(16C2)=480 on the first round, plus 120 on the final round, of which 24 will be rematches (which could be interesting, mind you). Total of 600.

(Japan Saimoe has 96+32+31=159 matches).

[Psieye]

Someone insane enough to do a League with a group of 64 is bound to have automated keeping track of stats etc. I'm not going to be spending much time following the stats as I trust minhtam to have automated that (or at the very least, get Comma Separated Values output working).

Vote tallying is another matter, but the amount of human eye time needed would hopefully be short despite the large number of matches going on. The nominations are good practice for minhtam to set up tools to aid his human eye catch suspicious trends.

[minhtam1638]

Originally Posted by Psieye

Someone insane enough to do a League with a group of 64 is bound to have automated keeping track of stats etc. I'm not going to be spending much time following the stats as I trust minhtam to have automated that (or at the very least, get Comma Separated Values output working).

Vote tallying is another matter, but the amount of human eye time needed would hopefully be short despite the large number of matches going on. The nominations are good practice for minhtam to set up tools to aid his human eye catch suspicious trends.

Don't worry, for now I know exactly how to make comma separated output. Right now, I'm using Vertical Bar separated output because that's what the form my professor gave me came with, but I can easily change it to comma separated output.

As to your idea, Overfunk, it's a good idea, except the Strength of Schedule given that groups are randomized can be totally different for all four groups. The point of a 64x64 league is to make sure that everybody goes against everybody fairly, which is why I've decided to run a 64x64 league.

And yes, I am insane, thank you very much.

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by OverFunk

Let's see at a rate of 3 matchdays per week, we'll reach the 63 in 21 weeks, approx. 5 months...

I have another proposal, but you might not like it.

One huge group of 64 makes it really hard to keep stats and everything. And apparently you will count most matches.

I think it could be a nice idea to make 4 groups of 16, then having the best 4 of each group to have a 16 final round held the same way.

To complete a group of 16, you'd need 15 matchdays, that'd be 5 weeks on the schedule. Then for the last one, it'd be another 5 weeks, totalling at least 10 weeks to complete the season. Half time to complete. And that final round would be more epic than the big group.

I know you want to have every match as possble, but maybe 64C2 is somewhat to big of a number... It feels that there will be many uninteresting matches...

If you keep 4 groups like that, it'll be easier to keep stats. Also, you can get someone else to manage a group, relieving stress on you. Moe is not really something you'd want to spend most of your time anyway, right?

Numbers:
The number of matches on your system is 63*32=2016, plus whatever you want to do post season.

This idea has 4*(16C2)=480 on the first round, plus 120 on the final round, of which 24 will be rematches (which could be interesting, mind you). Total of 600.

(Japan Saimoe has 96+32+31=159 matches).

First disclaimer: I am very curious as to what will happen in 64 player league, so have no problem with leaving things as is.

Now, if we are to have groups, this would be my recommendation. assuming voting in 8 matches per day.

8 groups of 8 contestants each, top 4 advance to form top 32 (28 days)
4 groups of 8 contestants each, top 4 advance to form top 16. (14 days)
4 group of 4 contestants each, top 2 advance to elite 8 (3 days)
2 groups of 4 contestants each, top 2 advance to final 4. (3 days )
Semifinal (1 day)
Final. ( 1 day)

total: 50 days

Since we guarantee top 2 to advance until final 4, even if we go completely random in group assignment, we are guaranteed that top 2 character will reach final 4. We could protect the top seeds even more with seeding system which is already in place. 50 days is very manageable. The problem is that we are not going to see all the match ups out there, although I suspect we will end up seeing all the interesting matches.

If we do 16 matches per day, the whole tournament can be over in 29 days, which is less than a month.

[minhtam1638]

Also, it's not really all that hard to keep track of stats for 64 contestants, thought it got a heck of a lot easier now that we are changing the schedule to the three matches per week format. There are many ways to do this.

Actually, there are a LOT of PERL scripts for vote tallying that I can certainly use to my advantage. I just need to pick one, inspect it to make sure I know what it does, attach it to todkapuz's server, and use the test poll to see exactly what it does. If push comes to shove, in order to make sure I know what it does, we may have an exhibition match set, just to make sure the script can handle tallying 32 matches in a single day, as well as detecting multi-voting, both regular and multi-proxying. If this were the case, exhibition matches will include Fate vs. Nanoha, Haruhi vs. Yuki, Hinagiku vs. Nagi, Sayuri vs. Mai, etc., i.e. matches with characters from the same anime, kind of like a practice match just to get prepared.

The current script I am using is very basic, and output would only contain what IP address nominated/voted for whomever. It is very essential for nominations, hence why I am currently using it now, but for polls, I would want to use a different script - one that can tally votes initially and spit out graphs. However, I also want to make sure that I still get the information I currently get from the previous script. A single form CANNOT (at least to my knowledge) run two scripts at once, so I would have to try to combine them in a way that I get what I need.

If this type of thing is to be executed, we may (unfortunately) have unofficial graphs spit out by the server as well as official tallies released by myself. This will depend on what the script will actually do, whether it can include deleted output.

Right now, I want to make sure I get my priorities straight, as I still have 5 weeks to prepare this tournament. I'm doing the best as I can on my end on the table.

[todkapuz]

I just sad that I don't have the time to setup such a system... as much I desired to do so. Two years ago really wanted to do so, but had a thesis... then when I got some time last year... I found the Korean Best-Moe... and well.. it's fairly close to what I had invisioned.. kinda... anyhow... keep up the good work, Minh.

[cnnydz]

can i vote for this cutie

Spoiler for cutie:

just kidding
1.saber - fate stay/night
2.runa - seto no hanayome
3.sakura - card captor sakura
4.asa shigure - shuffle
5.tamaki kawazoe - bamboo blade

[ZeRoGravity]

Illya - FSN
Ana Coppola - Ichigo Mashimaro
Momoha Odori - Manabi Straight
Mahoro - Mahoromatic
Mako-chan - Minami-ke

[minhtam1638]

The new schedule is finished and is now on the website. Only about three or four remained in their respective positions, the only two I know of being the season ender and season opener. Everything in the middle pretty much changed. Radically.

Here are the headlining matches according to my statistics. Any questions on particular matches, just ask, and I will let you know when they are. (The #1 #2 etc. are nomination vote-ins. Because the top 3 in nominations have just solidified themselves even further and are merely racing each other and leaving #4 and company in the dust, I've decided to give them priority in headlining matches.)

Disclaimer: Headlining matches are subject to change, depending on individual records.

Spoiler for 1024x768 image:

Speaking of nominations, I have received over 100 (legal) nominations. Don't know if it's a good number, but since it is rather early, and a slew of nominations will probably come late given many want to hold off and look for potentials in the Winter 2008 season, I'm satisfied for now. Here's where everybody stands. I won't give off names due to it's possible negative effects long term, but since I'm extremely bad at keeping secrets, I'll give out some really cryptic clues for the girls that seem to be in safe heaven. Don't ask me for answers, cause I won't give them.

#1 - 82 points
Hint: Kagami (LS) has taken a real interest in this girl. Why? Don't ask me.

#2 - 69 points
Hint: I don't think Nagi (HnG) has as many clothes as she does. And Nagi is rich..

#3 - 65 points
Hint: She comes from a distant time. Ask Eri (SR) about her history.

#4 - 62 points
Hint: I don't know who's smarter: this girl or Shana (SnS)

Okay, that's it for the hints. As for the rest of the field: Blue = in, Red = out.

#5 - 47 pts, #6 - 44 pts, #7 - 42 pts, #8 - 40 pts, #9 - 39 pts, #10 - 35 pts, #11 - 34 pts, #12 - 34 pts, #13 - 33 pts, #14 - 33 pts, #15 - 32 pts, #16 - 30 pts, #17 - 27 pts.

#18 - 25 pts, #19 - 25 pts, #20 - 24 pts, #21 - 23 pts, #22 - 20 pts, #23 - 20 pts, #24 - 18 pts, #25 - 17 pts, #26 - 17 pts, #27 - 16 pts, #28 - 16 pts, #29 - 16 pts, #30 - 15 pts.

[alphastickmania]

*Faints from looking at the list*

Okay... Sorry. I am just not used to looking at small text that are so crammed up. But anyway, I see that there has been a lot of progress going on while I afked. Good job, minhtam. Keep it up till the end!