Episode 32 - Sanctuary

[Crowley]

Look who's back. Really another slow episode, but still kind of nice. Some of the contrivance in Monster shows itself in the latter half, though it might not be immediately apparent at this time.

[BonBon]

I thought that was a superb episode. I adore this anime; nothing has impressed me so much in a long time. It was slow-paced, but there aren't that many shows that pack so much stuff into one episode.

All through it, I just think - this is a writer who knows what he's doing. The way the dance tickets were not only a bittersweet way of showing the journalist girl's feelings and her rejection, but also a way for her to become friends with Anna/Nina...the fact that this forest man just shows up as a peripheral character but you still become captivated by his story...and yeah, that little bird at the end was a bit cheesy, but the story itself was otherwise so well-told.

And Tenma is exhausting himself, undereating and becoming desperate. If not in the forest, where is going to shoot Johan? When he's surrounded by children?

[Trax]

Yeah pretty slow episode. Shame Lotte didn't realize why she seemed to recognize Anna/Nina before. If she had mentioned Johan, Anna would know where to look next. Anna still hasn't met up with Tenma yet, but it probably will not be long before that happens.

As for Tenma, he's a wreck. He's not eating right and in combination with the nervousness made him have to throw up. To make matters worse, the old man's story probably convinces him not to shed blood in the forest anymore, which was the perfect place. The spot with children was just as bad so he'll have to think of something else now.

Oh, and Johan's evil glance in Tenma's direction was extremely creepy.

[Crowley]

Originally Posted by BonBon

And Tenma is exhausting himself, undereating and becoming desperate. If not in the forest, where is going to shoot Johan? When he's surrounded by children?

That's one of the things that bugs me about Monster. The place where Tenma does go after Johan is quite good, but that the writer had to pull some WW2 story out of nowhere just to keep Tenma from choosing the forest really irks me.

[avmoghe]

Bah.. I knew it wouldn't last. After 4 very good episodes, this is a massive drop in quality. The worst episode since episode 20.

Ooh.. the birds are back when Tenma is about to shoot someone... how deep. And the little birdies will go away if Tenma shoots Johan.

(Yes, that was sarcasm)

Yes, we know Tenma is a goody two shoes. We've only seen it 80 billion times. We know he is struggling with his decision to shoot Johan. Lets move on! This episode had a maximum of 2 minutes of important information.

I would add my usual disclaimer about the possibility of the seeming irrelevant material being important... but I cannot ever picture Lotte's perceptions of pretty girls, or her crush on Karl, or this old Nazi playing a significant role in the story.

[jalana]

The only significance is character development. Lotte has a minor role in the future, and her interactions with Nina gives insight into Karl, Nina, and her own characters. Same with Tenma and the old man (although admittedly that one was weak and uber-corny). Anyway, we all know how avmoghe thinks about the character development episodes, so let's not dwell on that.

Originally Posted by Crowley

That's one of the things that bugs me about Monster. The place where Tenma does go after Johan is quite good, but that the writer had to pull some WW2 story out of nowhere just to keep Tenma from choosing the forest really irks me.

My personal view on this is that the author was trying to find a plausible reason why Tenma wouldn't pick this perfect spot, vs. the place he eventually DOES choose to do the deed. Because really, who would give up a sniping position in the middle of nowhere with little chance of witnesses without a very good reason? The old man and the birds seem to be the author's concession to that; yes, it seems stupid now, and if it were me, I would have said, "Screw the damn birds, I'm shooting here." But then again, it's just fiction, and at times like these, I just tend to run across the top of these little inconsistencies really quickly since close examination just leads to frustration and annoyance.

[LazyWulfran0]

Originally Posted by jalana

I just tend to run across the top of these little inconsistencies really quickly since close examination just leads to frustration and annoyance.

Hey, a show's not worth watching unless you're willing to analyse it to death.

[FireBorn]

One of the worse episodes in the arc. Still quite a good watch, however. As others said, was fairly cheesy in parts.

[grfd567]

hahaha...Well it wasn't THAT bad, I mean I think it had its good parts too. I like how something eventually ties the characters together, or they happen to encounter one another and don't realize who the person is until the end hahaha, It kind of builds up the suspense and its what makes me come back for more .

I really thought Tenma was gonna shoot in that first scene in the forest, and i got to admit, when Johan turned in his direction...man that was really creepy hahaha
I think that this episode was good in showing the agony Tenma is going through, I mean killing someone might seem easy for some, but I think if i was trying to murder someone, I would have had worse problems than he has right now.
This is what makes this show feel so real, and I do enjoy this kind of episodes.

Too bad there wasn't any previews for the next episode...but I'm really happy seeing the return of Nina and I'm sure there's more of her to come.

[Igi]

I like this ep. It shows how Tenma is struggling with himself, trying to kill Johan. In fact it is similiar to "Crime & Punishment" of Fiodor Dostojewski. In this book Raskolnikow, young student is planning to kill an old woman for her money. While he's planning, his body is acting strange, just like it wants to stop him from this (same with Tenma). Don't have time to tell all story, but that similiarity is huge to me . And those birds were symbol of Tenma's innocence, and I think he won't try to kill Johan at all.

[BonBon]

Hey, just because it doesn't necessarily contribute to the furtherment of the main story, does not mean it wasn't worth watching. These little human side-plots are what make the series great. I could've done without the twee little birdie on Tenma's arm, as I said before, especially since I thought the old man's story was his fancy rather than reality, but the story itself certainly held my interest.

And the interaction between Lotte and Nina was superb, in my opinion.

[avmoghe]

Hey, just because it doesn't necessarily contribute to the furtherment of the main story, does not mean it wasn't worth watching. These little human side-plots are what make the series great. I could've done without the twee little birdie on Tenma's arm, as I said before, especially since I thought the old man's story was his fancy rather than reality, but the story itself certainly held my interest.

I'm glad you enjoyed it, but I must disagree. These 'little human side-plots' lower the quality of the series in my eyes. Of course, (aside from a few notable exceptions like Berserk and Last Exile) most series have at least some "fillers". In this case, however, I find it particularly annoying since there is quite a bit of story left to cover. It isn't like Naruto where they're in danger of overtaking the manga.

I don't mind character development, as long as the character development is necessary to the plot. It was absolutely necessary to the plot to develop Tenma's character in the beginning of the series since it explains the choices he makes and the direction the whole story goes.

Somehow I cannnot quite picture Lotte's perceptions of pretty girls, or her crush on Karl having the same impact (or any impact whatsoever) on the direction of the plot. Character development is a (often necessary) supplement to the plot. But taken only by itself, (when it does not affect the plot) I find it quite worthless.

Either way, as I said above, I'm glad you along with some others enjoyed the episode.

[Bakuretsu-kun]

hrm, don't you think Tenma's reluctance in shooting Johan pertain to the main plot at all? as far as we know the main storyline now is Tenma chasing Johan down so he can rid the world of this -monster-.

yet when it was time to pull the trigger, he didn't (or should I say "couldn't"?)

it says a lot about Tenma's morals and whether he actually has it in him to pull the trigger when the time comes.

[avmoghe]

Did I miss something here? I dont recall Tenma not being able to shoot Johan. Can you give me the time in the episode when it happened?

As I recall Tenma was just scoping out the location. I didn't think he had the rifle aimed at Johan. I thought he simply practiced pulling the trigger (in the air).

[Crowley]

Originally Posted by avmoghe

I don't mind character development, as long as the character development is necessary to the plot. It was absolutely necessary to the plot to develop Tenma's character in the beginning of the series since it explains the choices he makes and the direction the whole story goes.

Characters don't necessarily stop developing after the beginning of the series. Perhaps Tenma has changed in some way that needs to be shown....

[mswyrr]

Just joined the forum. Hope you don't mind if I rant a bit?

Earlier, Crowley said:

The place where Tenma does go after Johan is quite good, but that the writer had to pull some WW2 story out of nowhere just to keep Tenma from choosing the forest really irks me.

Exactly! Nazi tales are like tales of rape or incest. Writers just shouldn't bring those topics up unless they're going to handle them well. It's repugnant to use it as a plot device.

Couldn't they have chosen a straw-man with less offensive implications?

I mean, it was handled so very badly. The characterization of the old man is really incoherent. He was a Nazi, correct? He murdered a man, and now he takes long walks in the woods, apologizing to nature for spilling blood in it. He doesn't apologize to the spirit of the man he murdered. He doesn't apologize to the mans family or, you know, go to jail. He just takes a relaxing stroll. A daily constitutional, if you will.

I suppose that a lot of Nazi murderers would've liked to have been sentenced to life-long strolling without the possibility of parole, huh?

He should be glad to have gotten away with murder, not making a thinly veiled confession to a random man he met one day in the woods, or whining about the birds not loving him anymore.

Nevertheless, the old man's attitude betrays a ridiculous naivete with regards to nature, in my opinion. Nature isn't bloodless. It can be quite vicious. I'm sure animals and people have been spilling each other's blood in European forests for centuries, if not millennia. Some of it must have been shed in that particular woods, at some point. It couldn't have come as a shock to it.

How many European forest have been witness to genocide? How many have held mass graves? How many of those atrocities could be contributed to the regime the old Nazi man supported?

Do the writers share the old man's naive and simplistic opinion of nature? What are they trying to say by presenting it here?

What kind of glow-in-the-dark hypocrisy is this?

To me, his being all broken up about the fact that the wee birdies don't like him anymore is monstrously selfish. He focuses entirely on how the murder he committed effects him and his "special relationship" with nature.

What is Tenma supposed to learn from the Nazi's touching tale, though? Are they trying to say that Tenma should snipe Johan at some other location? Perhaps when Johan is in the midst of a bunch of, you know, human beings who could be injured, or maybe in front of the orphans while they're playing at the park?

After all, forests are far more psychologically delicate than a bunch of little kids, and the delicate sensibilities of centuries old trees and wee birdies should come first in Tenma's mind, yes?

I hope you'll pardon my sarcasm, but I don't see how what the writers seem to be saying could be read in any way that isn't palpably ridiculous.

Are they saying that Tenma should refrain from removing Johan all together? I'm sure European forests, among other things, such as human beings, could look forward to a lot more blood shed and suffering if Johan's intentions -- whatever they may be -- come to fruition.

If they're going to address the issue of whether or not Tenma should kill Johan, I think they'd be better off asking whether he could be stopped any other way. Could a solid criminal case be built against Johan? If the police/government would be willing to imprison him, could a person with Johan's abilities to control others be successfully incarcerated? Is the modern Western justice system equppied to deal with "evil" of Johan's caliber?

There are a lot of engaging questions they could be exploring here. So many better ways to go. Maybe I've come to expect too much from them, but they've done so well in the past. It's not like the writers are incapable of handling their stories amazingly well.

So, why dump a load of criminal moral stupidity in regards to this huge, horrible, world event in the midst of the fictional goodness?

Why birdies all of the sudden?

Urgh.

[Crowley]

Wtf are you talking about? It had nothing at all to do with the old guy being a nazi, and he wasn't apologizing for the killing, he was apologizing for where he killed the man. There was no mention of nazis anywhere, you just pulled this out of thin air. It was about a soldier, not a nazi.
I disliked the scene because it was contrived just to make Tenma attempt the assasination elsewhere. There is no other coherent meaning to it at all. That whole part could have been left out and the story could still make sense.

[BonBon]

Mmm, 'cos, y'know, NONE of the Nazis had ANY conscience or objection to what they were ordered to do, and killing in a time of war under orders is EXACTLY the same as murder. Yup.

Okay, let's stop before this gets into a huge debate about WWII.

I personally like development of side-characters and minor/cameo roles, even if they're completely tangential to the thrust of the plot. Others don't. Fair enough. So I enjoyed the episode a lot more than they did. *Shrug*

I think we all agree that the birdies were a bit nauseating. But the fact is, the whole thing gave us an insight into Tenma's character - sensitive, easily influenced by the 'good-hearted', and perhaps too weak to do what he has set out to do.

[Ri_]

Up to where I've read, the story with the man in the forest with the birds is definitely the weakest one in Monster. Oh, it does contribute to the plot... but that was just lame, really, felt very set up. But that's okay, I can overlook it long as I don't dwell on it too much...

[mswyrr]

Wtf are you talking about? It had nothing at all to do with the old guy being a nazi, and he wasn't apologizing for the killing, he was apologizing for where he killed the man. There was no mention of nazis anywhere, you just pulled this out of thin air. It was about a soldier, not a nazi.

Crowley, in his speech the old man said that he believed in and worked for the National Socialist German Workers Party. That's an English translation of "Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei," which was the full name of the Nazi party. Nazi was a short form of "Nationalsozialistiche". If you don't believe me, there's an article about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party

Mmm, 'cos, y'know, NONE of the Nazis had ANY conscience or objection to what they were ordered to do, and killing in a time of war under orders is EXACTLY the same as murder. Yup.

BonBon, it wasn't during a time of war. He wasn't a soldier. He says straight out that he was a member of Hitler's "Kriminalpolizei". That was part of the Special Police. They didn't draft people. The Nazi government existed for a while before WWII broke out. The old man said that he believed in the party. He wasn't just a mislead young soldier. He could have chosen a different job. He didn't. He was ideologically backing Hitler, and working directly for his regime.

I didn't pull this out of thin air. The writers chose to make him say those things about himself. How is Tenma supposed to take moral advice from a man who says he believed in and supported the Nazi party?

Maybe we're supposed to suspect the old man? Maybe Johan had the old man go confront Tenma to mess with his mind?

I dunno.

ETA:
Godwin's Law: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

Heh.