2013-01-13, 22:40 | Link #61 | |
Sisterhood of the Desu
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: in a van by the river
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Otherwise, if someone's seen only a few episodes and says, 'IT SUX'...then...well....that's not really being critical. |
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2013-01-13, 22:45 | Link #62 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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Actually, in terms of making an opinion (your opinion) accepted, I would say that even more important than having "facts" is being respected by other people, i.e. being able to make other people want to listen to your opinion. Cold hard facts might reflect reality, but it can't actually be said that it is human nature to desire reality above everything else. The most important thing is whether people actually want to hear what you're saying, and in that respect your message can be helped tremendously by proper etiquette or tone. After all, no one will want to respect you, if you clearly first do not respect them.
That is the nature of discussion/communication, i.e. what goes on in this forum, which must be clearly distinguished from logical argument/debate. Argument/debate might sometimes be necessary to hash out/settle irreconcilable differences, but the primary purpose of discussion is simply to communicate with other people. Which gets to the heart of what this thread topic is talking about. A whole lot of (argumentative) people, on this forum and others, act like "truth" is their only concern. To ask them to try to show some respect for other people isn't a criticism, it's a genuinely well-intended suggestion to help them communicate more effectively. I'll refrain from generalizing it completely as a symptom of age, but basically it is ridiculously naive to think that you can get through all of life relying solely on "truth" or "objectivity". The sooner that people realize that you really do have to make room to account for human weakness (both in yourself, and in others) and empathy, the better. |
2013-01-14, 00:30 | Link #63 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
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Now we have Facebook, Twitter and all that jazz and it seems like the web is just an extension to real life, so the difference is more blurry, but still I never expect to be taken too seriously when I post, and I don't take many posts seriously either. And for your other point, anyone with half a neuron should realize that there is no real "truth" for anything (much less for entertainment), and so I don't really look at how someone words their posts at the time of replying. Whether they said "X is shit because of Y", or "I didn't really like X, due to Y", makes no difference the same for argumentative purposes. |
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2013-01-14, 00:59 | Link #65 | |
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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I always assumed that it was more the other way around: that the anonymity of the Internet gave people an opportunity to exaggerate and grandstand and basically do and say all the sorts of things that aren't necessarily their "true selves". Or rather, it's the negative parts of their selves cranked up to 11 because they can get away with it. I suppose it could be a sort of catharsis. Believing the latter is, I suppose, a form of optimism, because it allows me to think "they don't really believe that deep down, they're just saying that to make their point or win an argument". But if it's the case that most people really do believe those things, and they just act reasonable when it's expeditious to them to do so... well, yeah. I suppose this is fundamentally why I appeal to "tone it down", because I'm assuming that people are "toning it up" because it's the Internet. But if not... well, I guess that'd certainly explain how one could get jaded really quickly.
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2013-01-14, 01:13 | Link #66 | ||||
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Location: Where the Sky Touches the Sea
Age: 30
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2013-01-14, 01:21 | Link #67 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2013-01-14 at 02:14. |
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2013-01-14, 07:40 | Link #68 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
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What I'm getting at is that many people can't deal with the cognitive dissonance of someone strongly disagreeing with their beliefs, when it happens face to face and there's the whole layer of physically being there present. It's more easy to overlook those sort of things when just reading text. That, anonymity and the fact that you won't risk getting beaten to a pulp contribute to internet being usually a much more offensive and aggressive place than the meatworld. But I don't see that as something so bad in an of itself, or at the very least it doesn't bother me to the extent it may bother you or someone else. It's just a natural consequence of this method of communication. My initial point is that I think it's more reasonable in this context for people to adapt to "objective", aggressive opinions (as long as they actually have some content that can be disputed or agreed with), than being constantly annoyed by them. I don't think it actively annoys you beyond not getting why people do it, though. Most regular board users are probably already accustomed to it. |
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2013-01-14, 12:46 | Link #69 |
Deadpan Snarker
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Neverlands
Age: 46
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In my opinion I see no reason for people to attack eachother personally over either facts OR opinions
I am also of opinion that one should be alowed to be able to discuss their hobbies passionately having to resort to monotone '-almost telegramlike- posts really takes out any heart I am also of the opinion that having to start every sentence with "In my opinion" really doesn't make any disccusion enjoyable So what if someone gets their facts wrong? I rather see children converse than politicians. although often closer to kindergarten fantasms, at least their discussion is honest, open and entertaining But I guess others may have a different opinion about that
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2013-01-14, 13:42 | Link #70 |
Sekiroad-Idols Sing Twice
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Being called out for any statement you make can also be related to the reasoning itself and not just how it's presented. Honeyed words and synchronized sentences don't make a good argument and inarticulate writing doesn't necessarily wrong what might be right.
After a certain point and when all arguments are exhausted, though, it becomes a matter of admittance. For example, I like Show X for reasons A, B, and C while someone dislikes Show X for reasons X, Y, and Z; both arguments could be "right" but neither side will usually admit it. Instead they'll try to, God forbid, refute the points they know they can't debunk and the cluster**** begins.
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Last edited by Akito Kinomoto; 2013-01-14 at 14:10. |
2013-01-14, 20:04 | Link #71 | |
Classics never age
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Italy
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After all, it's not like fallacious arguments cannot arrive at true conclusions, and viceversa.
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Last edited by Dahak86; 2013-01-14 at 20:15. |
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2013-01-14, 21:13 | Link #72 |
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 34
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I've long been a fan of using qualifiers such as "in my opinion" or "personally,..." while in an internet debate. I admit that I very rarely engage in debates over anime, but I've been in my fair share of other types of debates that interest me (religious, philosophical, etc). I find it to be fun and mentally stimulating to see what the other side has to say and if my point of view can continue to hold weight when I actively pit it against another way of looking at things. In order to continue to have an exchange of ideas and actually stick to the content of the discussion, I tend to think using phrases like "in my opinion" eases the tone of my post/comment/etc. I'm not trying to force them to think my way, I'm not proclaiming what I say to be fact, and I'm accepting of the reality that this is simply 'my viewpoint.'
Sure, the other party should be expected to understand that I am arguing from my own viewpoint, especially on a matter with no definitive answer. The problem is, we don't always understand the other party's objectives so clearly and this problem is compounded by the fact that we're on an internet forum with no body language, tone of voice, etc to help elaborate on the mindset of the debater. So perhaps, to them, if I come out and begin harshly disagreeing without ever qualifying that it is my opinion, they can interpret me as being proselytizing, or, at least, dismissive of their viewpoint. Maybe I'm not really, but who cares? It's just easier to avoid such misunderstandings and soften the tone a bit by reminding everyone I'm aware it's just my opinion. Further, I think when you maintain awareness of this fact, people are more inclined to share their ideas and why they see differently than you, rather than get caught up in the tone of your post. In my experience, if I don't qualify things as being my opinion - even if it's redundant, even if it's unnecessary... it can detract from the actual discussion I'm trying to have because people become distracted by their misunderstandings of perceived combativeness on my part. They may still defend their opinion and present interesting replies, but it's then become a conflict of sorts and people hunker down into their viewpoints in a more rigid fashion, not willing to be open to new ideas and perhaps not as truthful about the intricacies of their viewpoint. I find it rather silly to be opposed to using qualifying phrases as a 'matter of principle...' I think they definitely have some distinct advantages in an online debate and can stop people from taking things personally (whether or not they're right to do so is irrelevant, in the end) and instead allow the discussion at hand to come to the fore. |
2013-01-14, 23:33 | Link #73 | |
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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I've said this before, but in real life, there are all sorts of cues that communicate our intent; things like our posture, the look on our faces, where we direct our eyes, the tone of voice, and so on. And these cues help determine the reaction we get. Online, we don't have any of those cues, so we have to convey it in words. And, if we want a constructive, productive conversation, usually we want to communicate things like: I'm open to learning, I'm not claiming I'm perfect, I'm not going to put you down for feeling differently, and so on. These help assure the other person that talking to us is worth their time, and that something good will result. If, on the other hand, someone is sending a message like "I'm here to tell you what I think" or "I think everyone is wrong except me"... well, they're going to send the message that talking to them isn't going to be productive. Then, the whole experience just becomes about defending one's self; "I don't agree with you, and I think I'm a reasonable person too". But, as I said before, it only works if the person really is open to opinions and isn't just tacking on the words as a sort of "faux humility". If someone really does think they've got the exclusive scoop on The Correct Opinion about entertainment (and that everyone who thinks differently is Wrong), I personally doubt they have much of use to contribute to a forum experience, that is as much about receiving as giving.
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2013-01-15, 02:08 | Link #74 |
On a mission
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I would have to say I'm not a fan of IMO at all, and only sometimes do it out of habit or super clarity.
I feel too often people think IMO.... I think.... is a magical shield that protects you from irresponsibly saying things that really shouldn't be. I guess what I'm trying to say that no amount of perfume and sugar will make up for a lack of tact. I respect people's right to an opinion, but it is not an absolute right. One must take responsibility to secure said right.
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2013-01-15, 02:35 | Link #75 | |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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Having to walk on glass for people is not my idea of a civil discussion. Being able to freely express oneself without fear of people taking things personally over petty reasons is infinitely better than having to tip-toe around one another. Not to mention that such "qualifying phrases" could come off feeling extremely insincere if misused. There is of course basic etiquette when talking to people, but there is absolutely no need to exaggerate.
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2013-01-15, 02:47 | Link #76 |
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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This is, for one reason or another, turning into an argument between two factions, which also represent two prevalent ways of viewing the forum:
Spoiler for two sides:
What kind of forum are we trying to create in the first place, I wonder?
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2013-01-15, 03:12 | Link #77 | |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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And I always put civility of discourse above everything else.
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2013-01-15, 03:17 | Link #78 |
On a mission
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If presented these two choices, I'd choose the former, but only so I can hammer in the following
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma In the end, someone that presents a valid argument yet is a dick will still challenge me more intellectually that someone that's tactful yet presents a worthless argument logically. Note that I'm not saying that the former is a better person nor worthy of respect, and crossing the line isn't acceptable to community standards. Au contraire, I recognize it as a terrible person making a good argument. Also, note that just because you have a good argument doesn't mean you get to be a dick to me. You've just proven yourself worthy. Worthy to be crushed by yours truly.
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2013-01-15, 03:27 | Link #79 |
Princess or Plunderer?
Join Date: May 2009
Location: the Philippines
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Unfortunately, being a dick makes you a target for moderator intervention.
We all knew that many people have been eaten by Solace's carnivorous bunnies throughout the history of the forums because of their d-baggery that breaches proper behavior in the forums.
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2013-01-15, 03:33 | Link #80 | |
On a mission
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HOWEVER Crappy visuals are crappy visuals! You cannot go "Well I have a good plot, so I can not put any effort in the presentation" Likewise, when you have no tact in an argument, you cannot make that kind of excuse for yourself. A flaw is a flaw. Furthermore, it is just common sense that participation in a community means that you accept certain standards of the community. Because nobody is forcing you to stay, you should either adapt or leave. Some forums don't allow you to cuss, so I should adhere to it. Even if I disagree with it with all my heart. Even if you think the rules are stupid, blatantly ignoring them is immature. If you do that, then don't try to think of yourself as a rebel martyr fighting for justice or freedom. You'd be no more virtuous than a homeless guy crashing a party and pissing on the walls.
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