[Manga] Naruto Chapter 599 Discussion Thread

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Souten no Seigyoku

Yea once in a while conspiracy theorists are right.

it's not a conspiracy theory when it is the most evidenced option... conspiracy theories would be along the lines of kagami and rin who had no evidence other than the fact that they were possibly tobi and could have had a sloppy, convoluted story strung together to explain them

edit: on a side note, this isn't even the right usage of the term 'conspiracy theory' but whatever...

[Typeblue]

Originally Posted by j0x

i think you are trolling and flaming now.... the reason some people including me is disappointed about the Obito is Tobi its because its so much simple and easy of an explanation its so lame.... but im also glad that its over now that the identity is revealed already

I don't think some of the theories are as simple as most of you think. Think 14 years ago, before internet forums became popular, a lot of people would have found the revelation that Obito is Tobi surprising. The reason the theories appear simple is because all posibilities have been discused so many times, it takes away from the element of surprise

[Sharfan]

Originally Posted by ntherblast

Are you like 12-.- People didn't want to believe he was obito because that idea is for simpletons. Also like I said we don't know the full story yet

I don't think it's fair at all to say the idea was for simpletons. Just because an answer is simple, doesn't mean it won't be correct. Why would you overcomplicate things with complex theories, when all of the evidence points to a much simpler explanation?

I just used the evidence to present (agree with) the most logical and supported theory. All of the other theories were just people's idea of what Tobi would be, with little to no evidence to support. I believe it was Sherlock Holmes that said something along the lines of not bending facts to fit theories, instead changing theories to fit facts.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Maybe YOU are okay with being wrongfully accused of being dumb, but I'm not.

Since I never called you "dumb" (or anything like that), this seems to be something you've added to the discussion.

Originally Posted by Dengar

You have still not shown me exactly WHERE I simplified ANYONE.

"Goofy", "Aloof", "Girl"; "the Sasuke becomes the villain"; etc. Your entire argument is based on weak and uninformative parallels you created by oversimplifying the individual characters. Yes Naruto and Obito are goofy (or some other similar meaning word (I would have used knucklehead)), but that is not enough of a parallel for any real discussion. A somewhat better parallel is the fact that both Naruto and Obito bore a heavy burden (Jinchuuriki and clan expectations), both were generally silly, both had vast hidden potential, and both loved a girl that did not love them back. But, once you add context to these individual parallels, it becomes clear that the characters really didn't have much alike and their parallels are simplistic at best. (Edit: The only worthwhile (to me at least) paralleling is that of Obito's failures and Naruto's successes. They are mirrors of each other in that respect (save for the whole getting the girl part...which Naruto still could do).)

Once again, this is more of an attack on Kishimoto than anything you've put forth. Kishimoto is trying to create these exact same parallels, even if they do not really fit.

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

so the theory with the most evidence proves true? there's lots of people mad about the most obvious outcome...

this was one of the biggest issues to support obito theory in my book since any other ninja would have stolen kakashi's eye

that was probably madara as long haired tobi

very strange chapter. i'm not really a fan of the lack of dialogue but at least it was different. it'll be nice to get an explanation for all this since i've argued all along that even though tobi is obito, he can't be just obito. i guess we'll see

ah man! why don't people like it (sure we are itching for revelation, but that is what the almighty 600 chap is for right). i mean, obito has been significant since the like the first 10 chapters of the manga. hopefully the anime strings it together nicely...i mean its a portrayal of a nice kid struggling with emotion,trying to best his peers, and realizing goals/dreams and at a relative peak its all shattered when he "dies"...i think a nice melody while reading would have made it more powerful LOL

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by james0246

Since I never called you "dumb" (or anything like that), this seems to be something you've added to the discussion.

Well, you accuse me of doing something dumb like 'simplifying characters'.

Originally Posted by james0246

"Goofy", "Aloof", "Girl"; "the Sasuke becomes the villain"; etc. Your entire argument is based on weak and uninformative parallels you created by oversimplifying the individual characters. Yes Naruto and Obito are goofy (or some other similar meaning word (I would have used knucklehead)), but that is not enough of a parallel for any real discussion. A somewhat better parallel is the fact that both Naruto and Obito bore a heavy burden (Jinchuuriki and clan expectations), both were generally silly, both had vast hidden potential, and both loved a girl that did not love them back. But, once you add context to these individual parallels, it becomes clear that the characters really didn't have much alike and their parallels are simplistic at best.

Once again, this is more of an attack on Kishimoto than anything you've put forth. Kishimoto is trying to create these exact same parallels, even if they do not really fit.

How does identifying a few common points between characters suddenly equal "simplifying" them?

[janipani]

What's the use to argue about the level of parallels. Wasn't the point just that there are ones.. Kishi loves to recycle settings over and over again.

[Ero-Senn1n]

If one accepts that Tobi is Obito then this chapter was good. The chapter used an artistic way (like slow motion or black&white) to show us who Obito was, to show us the huge contrast of the young Obito and Tobi, to shock us even more by thinking about how impossible it is that this guy in the flashbacks became Tobi.

Now Kishimoto just has to explain those 100 plot holes that this introduces. I think it's impossible to explain everything if Tobi is simply Obito, there must be more to Tobi's character. The one thing that comes to my mind now is how Tobi calls Kakashi and his team "children", he also calls Konan a "child" but she's older than Obito. So either Tobi is a schizophrenic whose main side is Obito but has also Madara, Izuna, etc. inside of him or he has some other mental illness

Having dumbass "hints" like being named Tobi is not really cool. A real quality hint would have been if during his fight against Minato or later Kakashi he would say at least half a sentence that is strange. Tobi showed zero emotion while facing either Minato or Kakashi, there was no hint and it's hard to imagine that an emotional guy like Obito would become a cold blooded killer who didn't show any feeling towards his former sensei and teammate. No love, no hate, just nothing. Until the previous chapter that is, but that's too late.

Also Obito being a useless dropout when he was crushed by some rocks, and just a few years later he can fight the 4th hokage meanwhile having complete control over the kyuubi and also having a completely different personality cannot be explained by a simple Tobi becomes Obito flashback.

So i think that Tobi = Obito + ??? should be the final revelation about him, but who knows what that ??? part is

Right now it's possible that this is a trolling, Obito being eaten by Zetsu and made part of Tobi, who is more Izuna than any other character absorbed by it. The reason that the Obito personality is used right now is to shock Kakashi and Gai and take advantage of that. There's still a little hope for the theory that Tobi is a combination of different souls created by Madara's rinnegan experimentation to resurrect Izuna gone wrong, later absorbing even more souls like Obito's while collecting their sharingan eyes, and him becoming "whole" just means that he wants to absorb all living souls of the world and "become one" with them.

[Dengar]

That's one of the major things that don't click with me well. Obito seriously was nothing special. At all. He hadn't even awakened to his Sharingan yet until like one or two hours before his death.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Well, you accuse me of doing something dumb like 'simplifying characters'.

Your interpretations and recrimination of "dumb" are your own and have nothing to do with what I have written. If I wanted to call you dumb I would (though I wouldn't. At best I would call an idea stupid, but I would never directly or indirectly call someone dumb, especially since better descriptions (like ignorant, or arrogant, or even negligent) can be used ).

Originally Posted by Dengar

How does identifying a few common points between characters suddenly equal "simplifying" them?

You used one-word descriptions as the entire basis for your argument. You can't get much more simplistic than that.

That being said, this discussion is going no where, so I am bowing out.

[janipani]

I think Dengar's point was spot on!

Even though I think it's been obvious for everyone that there are these same simple sets ups used in all Leaf-generations which Kishi recycles for symbolic reasons perhaps.

[SeanQ]

And the "Tobi is Obito" theory wins.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by james0246

Your interpretations and recrimination of "dumb" are your own and have nothing to do with what I have written. If I wanted to call you dumb I would (though I wouldn't. At best I would call an idea stupid, but I would never directly or indirectly call someone dumb, especially since better descriptions (like ignorant, or arrogant, or even negligent) can be used ).



You used one-word descriptions as the entire basis for your argument. You can't get much more simplistic than that.

That being said, this discussion is going no where, so I am bowing out.

Hm... A parting comment then. I really did not intend to simplify anyone. Nor do I still believe that I did in any way. I simply drew some parallels between several character trios who exhibited similar characteristic. This in no way implies that these characters are identical to eachother. I do not view this as "simplifying" them.

Fact is, out of these trios, it has always been the aloof guy who turned out to be the villain (Sasuke, Orochimaru, Nagato), EXCEPT in this case, where it turned out to be the goofy guy (Obito).

[janipani]

Originally Posted by SeanQ

And the "Tobi is Obito" theory wins.

It's better underlined

I think chapter was great. Of course it feels that Obito has no reasons to have become lunatic, but I think that comes for later. There are also several ways to fill plot-holes.

[Apollian]

we've all got the blanket pulled over our eyes.
sometimes in life, its the simple things right in front of us that are the truths.
all the crazy theories we've been having for years and year mean absolutely nothing.
don't get me wrong, it was fun and all, but at least give us something?.
Future Sasuke? Kagami? Izuna? Shinsui?.... the Raman guy?...lol.... lord lord lord!.
I need a break for the manga.

[Dengar]

To be fair though, if it turned out to be the Ramen guy, it would have been awesome.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

i think a nice melody while reading would have made it more powerful LOL

haha! yea i should have been listening to the soundtrack

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Now Kishimoto just has to explain those 100 plot holes that this introduces. I think it's impossible to explain everything if Tobi is simply Obito, there must be more to Tobi's character. The one thing that comes to my mind now is how Tobi calls Kakashi and his team "children", he also calls Konan a "child" but she's older than Obito. So either Tobi is a schizophrenic whose main side is Obito but has also Madara, Izuna, etc. inside of him or he has some other mental illness

Tobi showed zero emotion while facing either Minato or Kakashi, there was no hint and it's hard to imagine that an emotional guy like Obito would become a cold blooded killer who didn't show any feeling towards his former sensei and teammate. No love, no hate, just nothing. Until the previous chapter that is, but that's too late.

i still think that this is where the 2 voices will come into play. we know that tobi was using his sinister serious voice when fighting minato which is most likely madara if this split personality theory proves true. as i said a couple chapters back, i'd love to know what voice tobi is using right now and if that matters

So i think that Tobi = Obito + ??? should be the final revelation about him, but who knows what that ??? part is

only 3 options i think. madara, izuna or RS's elder son. i think madara would be the only choice to alleviate all plot holes though

Right now it's possible that this is a trolling, Obito being eaten by Zetsu and made part of Tobi, who is more Izuna than any other character absorbed by it. The reason that the Obito personality is used right now is to shock Kakashi and Gai and take advantage of that.

possible, but not probable. i doubt kishi would spend a whole chapter on a flashback of obito if this was all a trick or a genjustu or something. tobi is definitely obito, we just have yet to see what or who else he is or has been

Originally Posted by Dengar

That's one of the major things that don't click with me well. Obito seriously was nothing special. At all. He hadn't even awakened to his Sharingan yet until like one or two hours before his death.

but he was special. just like young loser naruto had the hidden potential of uzumaki, namikaze and kyuubi, young loser obito had the hidden potential of mangekyou sharingan

Originally Posted by Dengar

To be fair though, if it turned out to be the Ramen guy, it would have been awesome.

agreed. much better than kagami at least

[DJ*]

Originally Posted by Apollian

sometimes in life, its the simple things right in front of us that are the truths.
all the crazy theories we've been having for years and year mean absolutely nothing.

This was arguably one of the crazy theories because of the various flashbacks that disproved it.
But if this can be explained in a way that plugs all the holes, then well done Kishimoto. Well done indeed.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by prakash123

could it be that kishi didnt make a mistake in drawing minato's statue but maybe he was hinting to us about a paralell universe/dimenson?....just saying.its not like he would make a mistake so far out.i mean all this while if tobito has been travelling through dimensions there has to be somthing on the other side.it cant just be empty right?

Yes, Kishimoto did make some obvious mistakes. And this is not the first time. Do you still remember the chapter where Raikage grew his arm back (due to Kishi drew him with both his arms) when 5 Kages came to fight Madara? One arm of his shouldn't be there coz he already cut it off after got burnt by Sasuke's black fire.

On another note, I was a supporter of Tobi = Ramen Guy. Oh well....

[milan kyuubi]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Yes, Kishimoto did make some obvious mistakes. And this is not the first time. Do you still remember the chapter where Raikage grew his arm back (due to Kishi drew him with both his arms) when 5 Kages came to fight Madara? One arm of his shouldn't be there coz he already cut it off after got burnt by Sasuke's black fire.

From what I remember, that wasn't Kishi's fault. But the fault of the guys who were fixing the chapter and translating it.