2011-10-05, 09:19 | Link #2361 |
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Actually, Keroko, Wing Road is an I.S. ability. Just not the same as Vibration Shatter.
Shari was complaining about working Wing Road into Mach Calibur because it was an inherited ability. Plus, Nove's Linebreaker is an I.S. and it's basically Wing Road. Nove's unique I.S. is her ability to use her equipment to it's maximum potential instantly. Also, Wing Road has something that flight doesn't have... It sticks around so that people can run on it after Subaru, Nove or Ginga. *Points to the end of StrikerS and how they escaped the Cradle* Not to mention that in enclosed spaces, Subaru, Nove and Ginga are far faster than someone who can fly is. (Episode 17) And before you say that cyborgs can only have one IS ability, don't forget that Wendi commented that she has powers similar to Dieci and Cinque. Her I.S. is Areal Rave and that's just flying on her hover board, she's still able to shoot like Dieci can and she can make metal explode like Cinque.
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2011-10-05, 09:44 | Link #2362 | |||||||
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Whereas ISs like flight and Ray Storm are internal, and any damage that would disable them would likely have left the cyborg disabled anyway. Quote:
Well, I thought that was just Shari fudging the term for confidentiality'ssake; that is, I thought the show alluding to Subaru's cyborg nature without outright telling us that she was a cyborg. I figured it really WAS an Inherent Skill, especially since Wing Road continued to work even in total Anti-Magilink conditions, when everything but barrier jackets failed. Especially since there was absolutely no other mention of "Inherent Magic" or how it was different from normal magic. Maybe it's an extremely rare sort of ability that Scaglietti used as the basis of his technological Inherent Skills? If it has a biological origin, that would explain why it was reliably inherited in all three clones. Quote:
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Unless that one theory is true, and she was secretly involved with the very people she turnedaround and arrested, using them to give herself children because she (theoretically) was barren. Quote:
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A mirror-match clone is always supposed to be bad news, especially when she reacts to news of her original with bitterness and hostility, promising to show them she's superior, and being told by the other Numbers that she is going to give them a tough fight. A fight which never actually comes, because Nove never gets a proper duel with either sister; she always engages them as part of a team. Ginga handily defeats Nove and her backup until Cinque arrives. When Subaru enters the scene and goes berserk, she and Nove face off alone for the second or two it takes Subaru to curbstorm her. An exchange that favored Subaru, who was fully motivated and undistracted, whereas Nove was not as psychologically primed and possibly even intimidated. All in all, not a very "fair" match. |
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2011-10-05, 09:49 | Link #2363 | |
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Cinque is fighting Ginga alone and Nove and Wendi are off beating on the Forwards until Teana and Caro get them enough time to escape. Nove and Wendi aren't sure which group to follow, then Cinque calls them up and says "I've got the other Type Zero over here, can't beat her alone without killing her, mind if you help me out?"
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2011-10-05, 10:07 | Link #2364 |
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Ah. So I remember that particular element completely backwards.
However, it still robs Nove of any importance, as she's still just one of the three cyborgs needed to defeat Ginga*, we don't even see the fight, and Berserker Subaru wallops her shortly afterwards. Then Nove doesn't even get her rematch, but is instead defeated by Teana despite three-to-one odds. * And it wasn't even a fight they found easy enough to simply "capture" her. From all appearances, she still put up so much of a fight they were only able to beat her by going all-out and breaking her. You have to wonder how they felt about doing that to another cyborg, someone who was practically a sister. Also, how they felt about Vivio, whom was also cloned and created by Scaglietti. (But then, releasing the girl barely-clothes, dirty and beat up in a sewer with a relic case chained to her ankle doesn't make ANY sense at all.) |
2011-10-05, 11:04 | Link #2366 | ||||||||
Adeptus Animus
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Honestly? I'm not sure whether I trust that part of the manga translation... I think she meant something else, especially considering the whole Subaru cyborg/IS thing wasn't revealed yet at the time of the chapters release, if I recall. Quote:
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2011-10-05, 11:10 | Link #2367 |
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Could just be like, as you said, Keroko, a Belkan Rare Skill but the translators screwed it up.
After all, I'm pretty sure that Carim and Verossa both inherited their skills from their ancestors. Which would be why Jail cloned Nove from Quint (or Subaru, not certain, I think from Quint myself, though considering that Subaru's a clone of Quint, it doesn't matter, huh?), he wanted the skill that's passed on from parent to child and then helped Nove out with her own unique I.S. After all, Sein admitted her I.S. was a mutation. And, as we've seen with Otto and Deed, just because you're related doesn't mean you'll get the same I.S.
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2011-10-05, 11:18 | Link #2368 | |
Adeptus Animus
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2011-10-05, 12:09 | Link #2369 |
Goat Herder
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Part of the Subaru vs. Nove foreshadowing came from the second OP, as that featured Subaru clashing with Nove and Teana fighting Wendi and Deed.
As for this Wing Road inconsistency, we can always go back and pick up the raw and find someone more accurate to translate it for us.
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2011-10-05, 12:12 | Link #2370 | |
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2011-10-05, 14:21 | Link #2372 | ||||||||
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If I'm reading certain lines from the wiki right, when Subaru activates her combat mode, she switches from using mana to using whatever internal energy source cyborgs use. Which means she can't cast spells like Divine Buster (melee), while other spells like Revolver Spike work just fine. The AMF would be no problem if she's able to create Wing Road with non-magical energy the way Nove does with Air Liner. Quote:
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Against Subaru and Teana, when Teana pulled her stunt, Nanoha grabbed the initiative, held the psychological advantage, and then kept them off their game as she schooled them. And of course, they were unskilled and relatively weak opponents. Quote:
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But like I said earliery, you don't always WANT the memories of the person you're cloning, such as when you don't want to replace someone, and especially when you're making two clones and planning to introduce them to each other and raise them together as sisters. Unless the two didn't actually meet each other until Quint found them, and both o them were operating on Quint's memories as a three and two-year old girl, respectively. Part of the reason for Project F's memory-copying technology was to produce psychologically viable artificial mages, with developed minds and personalities despite being artificially aged. A child who jumps from fetus to six year old without any experiences in-between would be effectively retarded. Obviously, Scaglietti found or figured out some alternative solution to produce his own artificially aged daughters without needing to copy someone's else's memories and identity. Whether or not this technology was also leaked is unknown. Quote:
It was related to theories about why Zest's corpse was cloned and Megane was taken alive and put into suspended animation, whereas Quint was killed and left dead. Someone suggested that Quint knew too much about Scaglietti for him to let her live or bring her back to life, or that they had worked together and Quint double-crossed him. Quote:
And if it wasn't supposed to be dramatic and tense, there would have been no reason to hide her in shadow or be ambiguous about being genetically the same as Subaru. Quote:
He HAD the technology! He MADE the cloning technology, minus the memory copying that Precia perfected, but Vivio DIDN'T have the memories of her donor anyway. Considering how vital a lynchpin the Kaiser's clone was to his plans, WHY didn't he create and raise her himself as another of his daughters, so that she'd willingly obey him? It's not like he would have to reveal to the Brains that he was using the Sankt Kaiser's DNA to make one of the Numbers, and how would they know unless he told them? It's a thing he could have hidden. Certainly, the Sankt Kaiser as a Combat Cyborg would have been more useful than someone like Deed. Or even someone like Brainwashed Ginga. It only makes sense if creating an artificial mage is a noticeably different process than making a combat cyborg who just happens to have potential as a mage. Maybe when you make a combat cyborg, there's no garauntee that you'd get a potentially strong mage out of it. Perhaps this theoretically unmistakeable Artificial Mage creation technology is the only way to reliably produce a clone as powerful as the Sankt Kaiser's heir would need to be. If the Brains had forbidden Scaglietti from producing any Artificial Mages, and they would be able to tell if he was doing so with his Numbers, then that would handily explain why he had to rely on someone else to do it for him. And with Vivio being an "out of house" product, he might not have seen her as one of his daughters, but merely as a tool. Therefore, she didn't rate as deserving the affection he gave the Numbers. (Of course, there's also the possiblity that he doesn't actually think of the Numbers as people. "A Numbered Existence" explores this through Sette's eyes, I believe. Even his desire to offer wine in remembrance of Due might have been more to a lost work of art than a dead daughter.) But why would the Brains forbid Scaglietti from producing Artificial Mages? Why insist that he work exclusively with Combat Cyborgs? Cloned mages could be clandestinely created and slipped quietly into the TSAB through orphanges, adoptions and military academies. Even if the technology could not be officially condoned, the PRODUCTS of that technology could be freely introduced into the ranks of the TSAB and be accepted without suspicion. By contrast, Combat Cyborgs are immediately obvious. You CAN'T have them join the military without inherently revealing that someone is using illegal technology. Further, even if people figured out that the Artificial Mages are clones, human beings are going to be more comfortable accepting completely organic folk as normal people than they are to accept people who are 50% prosthetics. In short, unless Artificial Mage creation is simply THAT exspensive and cost ineffective, Combat Cyborg production makes no sense. And I can't imagine that CCs are that much cheaper or easier to produce -- and that's before considering the costs of DEVELOPING that technology. And if Project F was too expensive, the SMART answer is to keep developing the technology until Scaglietti finds a way to make it cheaper and easier. Abandoning the technology and forcing him to go off in a completely different direction makes no sense. Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 2011-10-05 at 15:10. |
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2011-10-05, 16:10 | Link #2375 | ||||||||
Adeptus Animus
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But regardless, no Nanoha is not helpless without Raising Heart, but she is a ton weaker since she has been using Raising Heart for virtually everything since she began, and particularly cartridges since A's. But she still has access to magic, and that's the main thing: A cyborg who uses inherent equipment also still has access to their upgraded body. So yeah, it's easy to point at inherent equipment and call it a flaw, but it goes both ways. Quote:
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Uno: A rank Due: A rank Tre: S+ rank Quattro: B rank Cinque: AA rank Sein: A rank Sette: S rank Otto: B rank Nove: AAA rank Diece: A rank Wendi: AA rank Deed: AA rank Quote:
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I don't think people need to know tropes to think that. Nove and everyone around her were straight-out saying that she was similar bu superior to the Nakajima sisters, and Nove was futher leaving no doubt that she hated them and wanted to fight and beat them. And if it wasn't supposed to be dramatic and tense, there would have been no reason to hide her in shadow or be ambiguous about being genetically the same as Subaru. Quote:
Jail is someone who loves open sourcing his projects. Whenever he hits a stump (such as the Project F memory copy) he opens his research to whoever has an interest in it and lets them figure it out, reaping the rewards for himself later. You say he had the technology, and to a degree he did. He had the technology to clone people that he had in his possession. The Saint King's genetic data was residue of blood on a piece of cloth, a good 150 years old. The difference could not be more vast. So he hit a stump, how do I solve the genetic puzzle of a 150 year old degraded genetic code? The answer: Open source it, let other people figure it out, and reap the rewards. And it worked like a charm. Quote:
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Also, while the cyborg project has diversity in appearance due to only using the genetic base and building from there (point in case, Ginga, Subaru and Nove), creating exact clones can only be done in limited numbers before people start asking questions. Heck, a famous or powerful mage can't even be cloned at all, the questions would just come the minute he shows his face. I'm not sure what Zests plan was with his usage of cyborgs, but Subaru managed to keep her cyborginess hidden for a long time. Erio and Caro didn't know anything until after she went berserk. |
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2011-10-05, 16:13 | Link #2376 |
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I thought it was the other way around, Keroko?
that Artificial Mages were easier and cheaper to make than Combat Cyborgs... Plus, unlike the Cyborgs, you didn't need to mess with the body of an infant to make the process successful.
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2011-10-05, 16:17 | Link #2377 |
Adeptus Animus
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Nope, Ginga was rambling on specifically about how inefficient artificial mages were shortly after they found Vivio, noting how costly it was and that it had a low succes rate. Fate, Erio and Vivio were lucky ones, in Vivio's case even a confirmed "one success in countless tries." Zest is a demonstration of what's somewhat closer to the norm.
The problem with cyborgs was the whole "body can only handle so much" thing. Which Jail solved with his genetic tinkering. |
2011-10-05, 18:20 | Link #2378 | |
Labda Prakarsa Nirwikara
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Okay, looks like my impression of RF6 has been mistaken all along. It's time for some clarification. I was under the impression that RF6 was ideally(what Hayate intended it to be) supposed to be some kind of Joint Special Operations unit, with specialists handpicked from every branch - air force, ground, navy. But according to what you said above, RF6 was supposed to be...a Ground Force exclusive unit? And what does "do the job themselves" supposed to mean? Had Hayate been confident enough to continue working on RF6 post-StrikerS, what was the final line-up supposed to be? When the trainers, the ones hailing from multiple branches, have all go back to their respective forces, would RF6 became Ground mage exclusive, with no air mage at all? No benefit from air cover or just plain combined arms in general?
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2011-10-05, 18:55 | Link #2379 | |
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2. Vivio HAVE Olivie's memories, just cramping 20+ years old memory in 6 years old body would not give exactly nice results. But it's quite strong implication that they are - they are both from old belkan nobility lines and it was stated pretty clear how those lines loved to play with genetics.
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2011-10-05, 19:17 | Link #2380 | |
Adeptus Animus
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Hayate's plan was not so much to create some super joint unit, but to create a new type of Ground Force unit that could stop many of the cases that happened here and now while the Navy is of saving the multiverse somewhere else. RF6 was a beta-concept, if you will. They are all Ground Force in RF6. Hence the brown uniforms for everyone. Would they still have flight capable mages if the idea'd gone live? Maybe, if the Navy and Air Force don't steal them. Being able to fly and being in the Air Force are two different things. You can be a Ground Force mage, but still be able to fly. Case in point, Zest. However, I imagine these cases to be not as numerous. Touché. |
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