Tales of Zestiria (PS3/PS4/PC)

[Fizix]

Originally Posted by GDB

What he's saying is that the game shoves Elemental Superiority down the combat system's throat so hard that you can't really main an element due to long stretches where you'll be doing piss-poor damage that doesn't stagger the enemy.

Basically, in trying to make Armatization "interesting" through having you change your link depending on the enemy, they actually made it so there's only two "real" characters and then four "equips" that take character slots.

I hope they don't continue this path of "choose based on the enemy" and revert back to "choose based on your preferences", but this is the second game in a row that did this (Xillia 2 did as well, it was just less apparent due to Ludger being able to change weapons and having a party restriction for 80% of the game).

Exactly, you explained it far better than I could.

It's not that you can't main them, just that you are up against it if you try. I'm maining rose but also playing Lailah and Edna frequently. When I do that I can find myself dealing with a lot of low damage due to resists and having to hope Sorry breaks through so I can get power chains off.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by GDB

I hope they don't continue this path of "choose based on the enemy" and revert back to "choose based on your preferences", but this is the second game in a row that did this (Xillia 2 did as well, it was just less apparent due to Ludger being able to change weapons and having a party restriction for 80% of the game).

That's not how Xillia 2's combat system worked. The only elemental weakness exploitation "required" was on the opening hit to stagger the enemy (and even if you didn't have the attribute, Guard Charge 2 worked the same way).

Enemy resistances did not apply during a weakness combo. In fact, you were required to hit the enemy with an attribute different from your previous arte to extend enemy stagger time and increase the Power Hit multiplier. During this phase, even if you used an attribute the enemy was resistant to, it would still increase the Power Hit multiplier.

The only similarity between Xillia 2 and Zestiria's combat is how unbalanced the attribute coverage is between characters, where Sorey, Rose, Ludger, and Milla could hit every attribute while the rest are locked to a couple. However, where Mikleo is nearly helpless if the enemy is resistant to water, Jude could still combo as well as the rest of the cast as long as he had Guard Charge 2.



Also, "choose based on the enemy" is not something original to Zestiria or Xillia 2. The weakness combo system has been in place since Graces and Destiny DX. For example, Asbel, Hubert, Sophie, and Cheria had far more Nova attribute artes and were more suited towards fighting Lambda's monsters than the rest were. They were just far more balanced in terms of what attributes they were missing compared to Zestiria's Seraphim.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by Fizix

I meant in battle. I said you can't *really* main Seraphim, or at least I haven't found it to be ideal, not that you can't do it. The problem is because of the seraphim being elemental. You need to switch them out sometimes which is a pain.

Ah, yes, I can see that. I don't usually main anyone. I just switch when I become bored with one character, so this time I tend to do it area based.

[Galaxian]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

That's not how Xillia 2's combat system worked. The only elemental weakness exploitation "required" was on the opening hit to stagger the enemy (and even if you didn't have the attribute, Guard Charge 2 worked the same way).

Pretty sure GDB was referring to to the weapon type weakness in Xillia 2. Just like Zestiria "encouraged" you to switch elements, Xillia 2 "encouraged" you to use the specific weapons for each enemy. Both cases make the gameplay feel restricted.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Galaxian

Pretty sure GDB was referring to to the weapon type weakness in Xillia 2. Just like Zestiria "encouraged" you to switch elements, Xillia 2 "encouraged" you to use the specific weapons for each enemy. Both cases make the gameplay feel restricted.

That is a poor example because like I said, Xillia 2 enemies do not resist attributes once a weakness combo has started.

And in Ludger's case, you will almost always want to use all three weapons to maximize your damage. It's also more convenient to always start a combo off with either Freezing Eruption or Hungry Hunter, regardless of whether the enemy resists Strike type attacks since those artes guard break more easily than any other.

If you have been exclusively using one weapon on Ludger, then you have not been playing the game properly.


A proper example of Xillia 2 restricting your party member options would be Ludger's exclusive Corpse Shell/Chromatus mode, or him being locked into your main party, or Ludger having more Linked Arte combinations than every other character in the game.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

If you have been exclusively using one weapon on Ludger, then you have not been playing the game properly.

This is exactly the problem, though. Why should they dictate how we play? They didn't do that before Xillia 2. Or at least, not to this extent. Sure, you'd have dedicated character roles to some extent, like only one character having major healing magic and maybe one other have minor single target healing. But you were still allowed to basically play however you wanted without being penalized. May not be optimal, but you weren't penalized.

That changed in Xillia 2 and Zestiria, where they decided you should play how they wanted you to play. Hate how hammers or guns play? Oh well, you have to mix them into your sword rotation just to get a weak chain or stagger combo going.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

A proper example of Xillia 2 restricting your party member options would be Ludger's exclusive Corpse Shell/Chromatus mode, or him being locked into your main party, or Ludger having more Linked Arte combinations than every other character in the game.

Corpse Shell/Amoritization/probably whatever Velvet does are all better examples of "play how we want you to play" than weapon/elemental weaknesses, yes. But that doesn't make weapon/elemental weakness bad examples. Ludger being locked to the party wasn't as big a deal as having your teammates chosen based on chapter, though it didn't help. Linked Arte stuff was more annoying/felt rushed than anything.

I just want the days back where I could build the party how I wanted, play who I want, and fight how I want. Where the biggest complaint was "Why is <X> the only healer?"

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by GDB

This is exactly the problem, though. Why should they dictate how we play? They didn't do that before Xillia 2. Or at least, not to this extent. Sure, you'd have dedicated character roles to some extent, like only one character having major healing magic and maybe one other have minor single target healing. But you were still allowed to basically play however you wanted without being penalized. May not be optimal, but you weren't penalized.

That changed in Xillia 2 and Zestiria, where they decided you should play how they wanted you to play. Hate how hammers or guns play? Oh well, you have to mix them into your sword rotation just to get a weak chain or stagger combo going.

That's how Ludger plays. If you don't like how he plays, and if you wanted a more traditional melee fighter, then choose a different character. This is like complaining about being forced to use Asbel's sword instead sticking to his A-Artes.

Every character in Xillia 2 could get a weak chain or stagger combo going. Not every character in Zestiria could do the same.

[frubam]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

That's how Ludger plays. If you don't like how he plays, and if you wanted a more traditional melee fighter, then choose a different character. This is like complaining about being forced to use Asbel's sword instead sticking to his A-Artes.

Every character in Xillia 2 could get a weak chain or stagger combo going. Not every character in Zestiria could do the same.

But, with the Asbel example, thing is, its not restricting in terms of combo potential. If an enemy in Graces is "Weak/Very-weak to B-artes", B-artes will do more damage and, conversely, A-artes will do less damage; BUT even if I use an A-arte, the enemy will still stagger and take damage. I can still combo with whatever artes I choose. That isn't the case with Xillia 2. I play with Leia most of the time, and she doesn't have 4 of the 9 elements to Power Combo with(slash/pierce/dark/light). If I face an opponent who only has those weaknesses, then I cannot properly use her against said boss unless I use Power Charge 2+3. In other words, you MUST use it if you want to combo. And if you don't have it, like in early parts of the game? You have a completely uphill battle. Now to me, that's pretty restricting. This is where I feel they made a mistake. In the original Xillia, an enemy still staggered even when hit with an element they resisted; they just took much less damage. But you had a lot more freedom in how you could approach because you never had a case of "can't use that arte(s) cause it won't stagger" or "I need this skill to properly combo". I understand what the devs were trying to accomplish, but I don't think it was very well implemented =01.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by frubam

But, with the Asbel example, thing is, its not restricting in terms of combo potential. If an enemy in Graces is "Weak/Very-weak to B-artes", B-artes will do more damage and, conversely, A-artes will do less damage; BUT even if I use an A-arte, the enemy will still stagger and take damage. I can still combo with whatever artes I choose.

No, because depending on the boss or enemy evasion stat, they actually will not stagger on the first hit, making it unsafe to start a combo with an A-Arte. Additionally, since Asbel has higher Cryas Attack as well as Iron Stance upon sword draw, it's an uphill battle if you stick with A-Artes. There are also many attributes that Asbel can only hit with B-artes.

Originally Posted by frubam

That isn't the case with Xillia 2. I play with Leia most of the time, and she doesn't have 4 of the 9 elements to Power Combo with(slash/pierce/dark/light). If I face an opponent who only has those weaknesses, then I cannot properly use her against said boss unless I use Power Charge 2+3. In other words, you MUST use it if you want to combo. And if you don't have it, like in early parts of the game? You have a completely uphill battle. Now to me, that's pretty restricting. This is where I feel they made a mistake.

Power Charge 2 is unlocked at level 20. You are not spending a majority of the game under level 20. The chapter where Leia joins also has a majority of the enemies weak to Strike.

Also, at those low levels, there are far more restricting mechanics than the attribute system, like the low TP and AC pools.

Originally Posted by frubam

In the original Xillia, an enemy still staggered even when hit with an element they resisted; they just took much less damage. But you had a lot more freedom in how you could approach because you never had a case of "can't use that arte(s) cause it won't stagger" or "I need this skill to properly combo". I understand what the devs were trying to accomplish, but I don't think it was very well implemented =01.

In the original Xillia, even in your own videos, you had enemies breaking out in the middle of a combo. How is this any better?

[frubam]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

No, because depending on the boss or enemy evasion stat, they actually will not stagger on the first hit, making it unsafe to start a combo with an A-Arte. Additionally, since Asbel has higher Cryas Attack as well as Iron Stance upon sword draw, it's an uphill battle if you stick with A-Artes. There are also many attributes that Asbel can only hit with B-artes.

I'm afraid you are incorrect. Bosses only have Iron Stance when they attack, else, you can easily stagger them in 1 hit. Granted, its still less safe to start a combo using A-artes in terms of lack of Iron Stance because you have to get close to the enemy, and chances are they will attack you first, but that's all; with proper timing after they attack, using A-artes is actually easier, due to the quickness in which they are executed. Now what you could argue about is their stagger reduction time, which can sometimes get ridiculous, but that's not a problem of staggering them; its one of keeping them staggered.

Power Charge 2 is unlocked at level 20. You are not spending a majority of the game under level 20. The chapter where Leia joins also has a majority of the enemies weak to Strike.

Also, at those low levels, there are far more restricting mechanics than the attribute system, like the low TP and AC pools.

Okay, but you still practically need PC3 to break the boss's Iron Stance. Else you have to hope that a particular hit, which is generally difficult to precisely calculate, breaks his Iron Stance, else, your PC2 is wasted. And the event that the boss's IS is broken, the boss can only take 2 or 3 hits before it counters; for a system where 4 party members can gangbang a boss, its just not a well-thought out system.

PC3 fixes this, but then the game becomes much more trivial. Guard for 5 secs, then combo. It comes less about fighting the boss and more about how efficient you make the combo. I find that to be utterly bland and boring.

In the original Xillia, even in your own videos, you had enemies breaking out in the middle of a combo. How is this any better?

Haha, man... way to dig that up =03. To my own discredit, that was the very first time fighting with Gaius in a solo setting. Considering I did no prep work before that run, and didn't understand the intricacies of the system(i.e. I was 'just fightin'), I'd say that's a bad example. Let's not even consider the fact that the battle is completely optional and more meant for you to lose, not to mention Gaius having a very low hits-to-counter count(lowest in game at 4 hits in that fight only) =01. I mean something more like this or this. Of course, this also depends on what you define as a "combo" in this game. If you define it as how many artes you can string together while accumulating max hits....then you are completely right; it isn't any better.

Some artes they might resist in Xillia, but at least I can use my full arte list(little as that was in that game), w/o worrying about what can/can't hit. Yes, the Power Combo system can achieve this, but unless your name is Ludger, you're going to be stuck "saving" your artes for that PCombo extension, and thus 'can't' use them, which inherently limits how you use your artes. Both games have their advantages/disadvantages; I just prefer the original better in this regard.

[Twi]

Looking at this game... it kind of feels like an Avatar the Last Airbender in game format. Also, I kinda see the point about shoe-horning in Rose with the character shilling. I shouldn't be wondering just what Mikleo is smoking when he tells Sorey she'd be a good partner when she literally just pulled a switch that trapped them by the sheer virtue of being too hasty, when that same thing got him nerfed by the Big Bad and he warns him against doing that constantly.

And, honestly, some of the characterization feels... off.

[Raviel]

Hello guys, this post isn't really about Zestiria but I'd like to ask if there are any other Tales games officially coming to the PC/ Steam besides it and Symphonia.

[Shinji103]

Copied over from the comparison thread since this is getting a bit too close to the old debacle, though I'm personally not really interested in continuing the discussion.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

From an interview that someone once translated and posted on tumblr, when talking about the Alisha DLC, which they don't do much of, they pretty much just handwaved everything that happened in it, which is actually weird considering how much they talk about Zestiria's world and characters. That plus the way how the DLC ended, and the manner that it was announced leaves me to believe that it wasn't planned from the start, but rather was included because of the controversy. On top of that the DLC itself is mostly reused assets from the actual game, with the only new things being Alisha's spear, model, and mystic arte, it wouldn't take much money or time to make. The whole DLC just stinks of lack of effort. On the subject of continuing the the DLC, despite the fact that the DLC "obviously" was setting itself up for a sequel, according to the staff they never intended or planned to make one from the start. If there was going to be a sequel to it it would be because people demanded it not because it was planned. Alisha's DLC is the end of Alisha's story.

Also just to explain the reason why Lunarre appears in the ending according to the scriptwriter is because he represents that Malevolence is eternal, it's not hinting at a sequel. It has nothing to do with Alisha.

If Lunarre was a character who meant to be an antagonistic to her and a thorn in her side then why would he be revealed so late? Especially when he appears so early in the story? Keep in mind that all characters that appeared early in the story were also revealed first that includes Maltran and Bartlow, and Sergei, and Lunarre's outfit means that he was always meant to be a part of Rose's crew.

As for the evidence proving Alisha was never meant to be a major character nevermind heroine, besides logic is the interview from the creators about the creation of the characters which you'll have to PM me for. Because yes it does bring up the Alisha controversy.

[-Antares-]

Originally Posted by Raviel

Hello guys, this post isn't really about Zestiria but I'd like to ask if there are any other Tales games officially coming to the PC/ Steam besides it and Symphonia.

Zestiria and Berseria are all for PS3+PS4+Steam.

Finally finished this game (after Berseria because that's just how I roll). It seemed like Berseria 0.2. The battles were really not very fun because everything had to be balanced between kamui (armatization, I believe?). So you either used it and killed everything way too fast (even on higher difficulties) or you didn't use it and every boss took 20~ minutes on bosses. The timing for dodges is extremely stict, too, and I'm no stranger to Tales. I was really not fond of the persistence of the enemies chasing you on the field, nor was I impressed with the absolutely horrid camera in battle... They shouldn't have have had battles take place in the encounter zone until they figured out they needed to have a way to change the camera as in Berseria.

Also, as much as I like Zaveid,

Spoiler:

They were really shameless about adding him to your party when Dezel went away. They literally just swapped out the equipment and everything.

I didn't really didn't care about Alisha, but the Zaveid thing was just... shameless is the best word I can think of it, even if he had some really nice scenes with Edna.

... and the AI was really bad. They spent an incredible amout of time walking straight into an enemy or a tree pointlessly. Boss's random prolonged invincibility was really irritating too. I'd much rather have it like in Berseria, where nothing was invincible but frequently they did not stagger.

The game also seems seems like it has Abyss's disease where you basically don't get anything fun as far as skills until well into a second playthrough unless you want to grind specific challenges. :/

Also, all of the characters were insane and Alisha's outfit was really ugly to me. The game's still waaay better than games like, dare I say it? Phantasia. I did enjoy it, but holy horses did it have technical problems.

Also, playing Berseria before Zestiria made certain things very sad. :( I wonder if people who played Zestiria first felt the same when they played Berseria.