Another - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[Hakuromatsu]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Actually, I just realized something: there's no date on the roster

3-3 is the class. San-nen san-gumi.

I don't know how this didn't come up three weeks ago when some of us were discussing the roster in detail. I don't know much Japanese, but the kanji for month and day are so distinctively simple that I'm surprised none of us picked up on the fact that we were wrong.

As for whether or not Kouichi was planned for in advance, this was the only reference I could find:

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity

Spoiler for Apparently:

In Keichi's particular case, his dad contacted school well in advance so they knew about his transferring in. They just forgot to account for it. Not sure if this was mentioned in the anime though. Either that or if you are a proponent of Keichi is the another theory then you can take it as modification of records by the phenomenon I guess lulz.

Could someone who's read the novel confirm whether or not something like this is mentioned in the novel (if it's not a spoiler)?

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Actually, I just realized something: there's no date on the roster

3-3 is the class. San-nen san-gumi.

Can't believe I missed that

[PreSage]

Originally Posted by taichi-kun

So the number of students was already wrong in April and they didn't know...

They blamed the transfer student in may even when they knew he was coming

I remembered mei saying she was first ignored in May,so in April when the curse started she a was normal girl ?

Kouichi actually transferred in April. In ep 1, when the student council visited him in the hospital, the clock at his beside registered 4/26 (or April 26th). So he was already on the roster in April but due to his sudden hospitalization he won't actually attend class until May. That's why the curse started in April with Mei's sister's death, which happened the day before on 4/25 (April 25th).

I'm guessing the students might have thought that the curse won't occur until Kouichi physically appeared (which is after Golden Week - or on May 6th).

Edit: Actually, when we were first introduced to Koichi, his bedside clock showed April 25 (4/25). The student council must have met him the next day.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Hakuromatsu

I don't know how this didn't come up three weeks ago when some of us were discussing the roster in detail. I don't know much Japanese, but the kanji for month and day are so distinctively simple that I'm surprised none of us picked up on the fact that we were wrong.

As for whether or not Kouichi was planned for in advance, this was the only reference I could find:



Could someone who's read the novel confirm whether or not something like this is mentioned in the novel (if it's not a spoiler)?

Its concludent from the Manga's introduction scene.
There, he states that it would be his first day of school. Note that he really says first day of school and not 'my first day of school' or 'for me'. he also says that the was left in his grandparents care. That and the fact that he himself states that he was already in there when the first death happened leads to said fact.

[VDZ]

Finally managed to catch up with Another...

The eye thing is the detective's signal that the truth will be revealed on the next page, so go over your clues and make your conclusion right now. The hints have been fairly obvious, and this episode went from 'yeah, that's pretty much it' to 'no doubt about it, that's it'.

Well, looks like the other two school trip victims died natural deaths, and the Another of 1983 was immediately forgotten, wrecking my previous theory of it leading to an entire half year's worth of memories being erased. I wonder what's up with Reiko's memories, in that case?

Originally Posted by ThereminVox

- Finally, still waiting for the payoff to his collapsed lung. And to his father's odd comment that "I had it twice, then never again, so you're done." Someone said he was wearing pajamas in Izumi's dream. I missed that. Were they the same ones he wore in the hospital in episode 1?

Originally Posted by LKK

Yes, they're the same blue pajamas. First thing I noticed when the camera pulled out to reveal him.

Dreams are tricky things to interpret. It's possible that the dream was a true memory of what happened. In which case, my questions are (1) why was Kouichi wearing pajamas? Do they signify something like a previous hospitalization?

1 + 1 = 2. Problem solved.

Or for those wanting an explanation, two years ago Kouichi had pretty much the same problem as at the start of the series: He got lung problems and moved from Tokyo to the town. While in the hospital, he met Izumi. Izumi and her brother (who was in class 3-3 at the time, and was confirmed dead on one of the class rosters) die while Kouichi is still in town. After recovering, Kouichi moves back to Tokyo. Two years later, Izumi is the Another, leading to Kouichi's memory of being in town (and having lung problems) two years ago to be erased. Izumi's memory is not erased to make her forget her own existence (obviously), so she still vaguely remembers meeting Kouichi shortly before she died.

Izumi started realizing she is the Another herself, and went into denial. Her outburst at Mei was an obvious result of that.

Originally Posted by Kakkou

I don't think Teshigawara actually killed someone but rather spilled the beans about killing the Another which set someone (or more?) on a killing rampage. It also looks like he was possibly last seen arguing with someone in his room and not outside.

My thoughts exactly. Teshigawara is a fool, but not a murderer. He would definitely spill the beans, and spilling the beans would definitely lead to people killing each other.

This sets the stage for the next episode, where paranoia runs rampant and even suggesting that somebody is the Another could get you killed. With the situation as tense as it is now, Mei's knowledge of who the Another is is pretty worthless as nobody trusts one another anymore. If it was as easy as just walking up to Izumi and bashing her face in, Another would be 11 episodes, not 12, and it'd leave many things unresolved. They'll either have to perform an assassination (unlikely since Kouichi and Mei are just two random school kids) or conveniently discover what the phenomenon is exactly and find a better solution.

And, uh, the Another nobly sacrificing herself to save the class? The human mind doesn't work that way. If somebody tells you there's no other way to save people than by sacrificing you, your mind will do its best, to a ridiculous degree, to make up excuses as to why that's wrong. Noble sacrifices could only come from one's own reasoning, and even then 99.9% of people simply wouldn't do it. Even if Izumi's presented with tons of proof she's not going to sacrifice herself because she just can't accept she's dead.

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Hold up. Is it really called "Mystic Doll Eye of Death Perception"? Or is that just a fan coined term? I thought I was original with coming up with it.

Of course not. The name's just a parody of the Nasuverse's Mystic Eyes of Death Perception. If it really were the official name, what are the odds of every translator getting the reference and looking up what it's usually translated as? Terms in the Nasuverse are only consistent in the English language because translators try to keep them consistent - sometimes translators don't use the agreed on terms, which results in different names like 'Arcane Eyes' instead of 'Mystic Eyes'.

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

Spoilers for Kara no Kyoukai:

Spoiler:

Yukito Ayatsuji seems to be a fan of KnK, as Mei's Mystic Doll Eye of Death Perception bears a number of resemblances to Ryougi Shiki's Mystic Eyes of Death Perception. Mei and Shiki both suffered near-death experiences and returned with the ability to see beyond what normal people can see. The doll eye is not just a placeholder for an otherwise-empty socket, it is actually "mystical" and so grants her the ability to see the color of death in addition to being able to see normally through it. It's not clear if that ability is tied in a physical sense to the doll eye (nor does it matter at this point), for example, if she removed her doll eye and replaced it with another fake eye, does the ability to see the color of death remain within her and work through it or not. In the case of KnK, it's explicitly stated that Shiki's eyes are physically altered from her journey to death's door to give her the ability to see threads of origin, it is not something innate within her.

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Shiki is just Shiki and, besides, her "vision" works differently in that she doesn't see "death" so much as she sees...

Spoiler:

...fate lines or life lines that she can cut at will.

I would prefer that Mei's ability isn't so out-and-out mystical, as almost everything that has happened in Another isn't completely outside the realm of possibility, unlike in Kara no Kyoukai, which is at heart, just another shounen action-drama.

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

Well, my understanding is that she sees

Spoiler:

the "origin" of things, when she cuts the lines which connect the physical object to it's "origin", she entirely negates it's existence. In that sense she isn't "killing" anything, merely causing it to cease to exist. That's why she can "kill" anything, even inanimate objects like locks, by cutting the thread that connects the object to it's origin.

If you guys haven't seen Kara no Kyoukai's epilogue yet, go do so. It's pretty much only 20 minutes of dialogue between Kokutou and Shiki, but it has a lot of vital information and clears some things up.

Most (all?) of writer Kinoko Nasu's works, among which Kara no Kyoukai and Tsukihime (extremely popular doujin visual novel that made Nasu famous, probably more famous in Japan than KnK), take place in the same universe, generally dubbed the Nasuverse by fans. In the Nasuverse, Mystic Eyes are special kinds of magic that are used through eyesight or affect eyesight. As far as I've seen, there are three cases of "Mystic Eyes of Death Perception" in the Nasuverse, two in Tsukihime and one in Kara no Kyoukai.

Spoiler for Shiki (Kara no Kyoukai):

I don't think Ryougi Shiki's eyes were ever given a proper name, but what is initially thought of as MEoDP don't actually perceive death; instead, they perceive the origin of things, and allow the caster to return things to their origin (the titular emptiness, Kara no Kyoukai means 'Boundary of Emptiness', see Epilogue to understand why it's named like that), which in practice means she can easily cut anything - be it life, objects, or magic. From what I've seen from the movies (haven't read the actual stories), it looks like she can turn them on or off at will.

Spoiler for Shiki (Tsukihime):

Tohno Shiki's Mystic Eyes of Death Perception are true MEoDP. He perceives the 'death', the eventual fate of destruction, of both life and objects. By cutting objects he brings them towards their inevitable fate, which practically means they're destroyed. While it may seem practically the same to KnK Shiki's eyes, they're actually the polar opposite, and is therefore more limited; everything has a beginning, but some things or creatures (such as True Ancestors or certain kinds of magic) have no end and can therefore not be destroyed using these eyes. Ever since obtaining them, Shiki has been able to perceive death 24/7, which puts a serious strain on his brain. While recovering in the hospital, he met Aoko, who gave him special magic glasses (not a completely random plot device - Aoko and sister Touko specialize in magical gadgets like that) which return his vision to normal. He generally always wears his glasses to protect his mind, not because there's something wrong with his eyesight.

Spoiler for SHIKI (Tsukihime):

It's been quite a while since I read the part where this was explained, so I might make some mistakes here. SHIKI (not to be confused with Shiki) believes to have Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, but in actuality has Mystic Eyes of Life Perception. He sees lines just like Shiki, but only on living creatures - he can't actually destroy objects with it, as they have no life. (He also can't kill MMORPG players.) I'm not sure if he can voluntarily shut them off like Ryougi, but considering his eyes are more similar to Tohno's, they're probably permanent and involuntary.

Also, minor nitpick:

Spoiler for Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue:

Ryougi Shiki's eyes perceiving origin actually IS an innate ability, as revealed in the epilogue. The third Shiki perceives the origin of everything at all times, and the eyes are just tapping into that hidden power.

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

(For example, it's perfectly acceptable for tough women to leap over tall buildings in a single bound in shows like Kara no Kyoukai, but not so plausible for something like that to happen in a story like Another's.)

It's not just "because it's shounen action"; you don't see most other characters jumping like that (only one I can recall is that guy in movie 7, but that's because his entire existence was 'enhanced' by bringing him closer to his origin). Shiki has various innate and acquired magical hax abilities as revealed throughout the series, but the first movie (you might've missed the part since that movie sucked) also reveals she's using artifical, magically enhanced limbs crafted by Touko. I won't deny that Nasu's work are shounen battles all over the place, but he usually gives valid excuses for his hax abilities and keeps it realistic when there are none. Usually.

[Ledgem]

Looks like we're about to reach the climax. The question in my mind is whether episode 11 will be non-stop high tension, leaving episode 12 as a sort of wind-down aftermath type of episode, or if they'll split it up.

Question: did anyone feel that the first half of the series was more adrenaline-inducing than the latter half?

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by VDZ

Finally managed to catch up with Another...

The eye thing is the detective's signal that the truth will be revealed on the next page, so go over your clues and make your conclusion right now. The hints have been fairly obvious, and this episode went from 'yeah, that's pretty much it' to 'no doubt about it, that's it'.

Well, looks like the other two school trip victims died natural deaths, and the Another of 1983 was immediately forgotten, wrecking my previous theory of it leading to an entire half year's worth of memories being erased. I wonder what's up with Reiko's memories, in that case?


1 + 1 = 2. Problem solved.

Or for those wanting an explanation, two years ago Kouichi had pretty much the same problem as at the start of the series: He got lung problems and moved from Tokyo to the town. While in the hospital, he met Izumi. Izumi and her brother (who was in class 3-3 at the time, and was confirmed dead on one of the class rosters) die while Kouichi is still in town. After recovering, Kouichi moves back to Tokyo. Two years later, Izumi is the Another, leading to Kouichi's memory of being in town (and having lung problems) two years ago to be erased. Izumi's memory is not erased to make her forget her own existence (obviously), so she still vaguely remembers meeting Kouichi shortly before she died.

Izumi started realizing she is the Another herself, and went into denial. Her outburst at Mei was an obvious result of that.


My thoughts exactly. Teshigawara is a fool, but not a murderer. He would definitely spill the beans, and spilling the beans would definitely lead to people killing each other.

This sets the stage for the next episode, where paranoia runs rampant and even suggesting that somebody is the Another could get you killed. With the situation as tense as it is now, Mei's knowledge of who the Another is is pretty worthless as nobody trusts one another anymore. If it was as easy as just walking up to Izumi and bashing her face in, Another would be 11 episodes, not 12, and it'd leave many things unresolved. They'll either have to perform an assassination (unlikely since Kouichi and Mei are just two random school kids) or conveniently discover what the phenomenon is exactly and find a better solution.

And, uh, the Another nobly sacrificing herself to save the class? The human mind doesn't work that way. If somebody tells you there's no other way to save people than by sacrificing you, your mind will do its best, to a ridiculous degree, to make up excuses as to why that's wrong. Noble sacrifices could only come from one's own reasoning, and even then 99.9% of people simply wouldn't do it. Even if Izumi's presented with tons of proof she's not going to sacrifice herself because she just can't accept she's dead.

While you did indeed show good evidence, don't forget that you have to prove it with things Kouichi has seen himself. Everything he hasn't seen is a cat box to him and bears no value for argumentation.
Don't misunderstand I''m not saying you are right or wrong - there is still enough left to incriminate her.
I just want to remind people that the detective has to get the same clues we do in order to solve it.

I will say something about the motive behind her outbursts though, purely based upon the Anime and what we have seen until now:

From what we have seen until now its more an act of jealousy than denial. You can clearly see how much she suffers the moment Kouichi opens his mouth to help her, notably to a degree where she even bites her own lips.
She does however not show this attitute when other people do that.
Her outburst is more to humiliate her a bit. There is a reason why sayings like 'Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned' exist.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I think anyone who denies a supernatural component at this point is grasping pretty hard at straws, so in that context, why try and explain Mei's eye scientifically? It's a magic eye. It may not make sense from a medical standpoint, but there's a certain suspension of disbelief in the premise to begin with. And this ability of her eye to see things supernaturally has already been discussed much earlier in the series, so I don't think anyone should be shocked to hear it now.

Originally Posted by totoum

The story has a dead person nobody could see appearing in a photograph,how is that not completely outside the realm of possibility?How do you scientifically explain that?
Or how does science explain that a dead person can come back to life for a schoolyear?
How does science esplain records changing and the memory alterning?
So really Mei's eye isn't the first scientifically implausible thing that's been thrown at us.

First of all, don't get me wrong. The issue I have with Mei's glass eye isn't so much that isn't scientifically plausible as it is that it's an arbitrary implausibility that the audience is simply asked to accept. For those who were already finding it difficult to buy into the premise of Another — and there were many such viewers, if you'd recall from the earliest episodes of the show — Mei's "mystical" eye adds further to the "bullshit" factor that detracts from its believability.

As I've been saying quite a few times, it seems that there are two separate sets of mysteries in Yomiyama, one involving Class 3-3 of Yomiyama North, and another one involving Mei Misaki and her family. As Skyfall pointed out:

Originally Posted by Skyfall

A bit of a shame, because while the setting certainly has supernatural in it, it has been confined to the phenomenon thus far (as far as we are aware of anyway). Feels like a slightly "cheap" way to help them identify the Another so they can just move on with said part and plan how to kill it instead (and finding whether they have the courage to do so), but ah well.

Like him, I find Mei's mystical sight to be an overly convenient plot device to help identify the Other. I would have much preferred that the solution to the mystery was not so straightforward, and that it demanded a lot more detective work from the students. Again, as Skyfall said, this would have added greatly to the tension, because unless they somehow manage to find the literal "smoking gun", the students would have no way of being 100% certain that their deductions are correct, which makes the decision of whether to kill the Other — should they indeed find him — that much more agonising. (Did we get the right guy? Is it over now? And so on.)

When I said that the things that have been happening to the students of Class 3-3 aren't "outside the realm of possibility", I was referring to the natural effects of the phenomenon. Every fatal accident we have seen so far is not completely beyond rational explanation. And this is crucial, because while the phenomenon itself is unnatural, that property has so far been confined to just the phenomenon itself. It doesn't consciously exert any power of its own to cause tragedy to people around the Other. Rather, it's more as though the natural environment around the Other is reacting to his presence, the way a body's immune system is triggered by the presence of a potentially dangerous foreign entity.

So, as long as the supernatural aspects of the curse are confined to just the curse itself, it is possible for some viewers to accept its existence. This is just one particular anomaly, the one at the heart of the entire mystery and the key part of the plot. Without it, there would be no story, so it's pointless to quibble with its apparent implausibility.

Along comes Mei's mystical and suddenly "all-seeing" eye. As I've said, I don't have problems accepting that Mei can see dead or dying people. There is a sufficient body of urban legend from most parts of the world, especially in Asia, that would make this a reasonable "explanation". Even better, I can go one further and hypothesize that her "extra" vision is a likely result of the tumour she suffered at age four, which may have affected her optic nerves to the extent that she now perceives vision differently from other people.

And yet, her glass eye appears to be more than just a prosthetic. She can actually "see" through it! That, to me, is stretching it a bit far. I, the viewer, am suddenly confronted with a new mystery, another anomaly, that appears unrelated to the phenomenon. The story is suddenly asking me to suspend disbelief yet further to accept what appears at the moment to be a weak plot device and a convenient deus ex machina.

Why should Mei's glass eye be so ultra special? How did Kirika come upon such an all-powerful fake eye? What compelled her to use it on Mei?

So, you see, the nature of Mei's glass eye suddenly gives rise to a lot of questions that shouldn't be there, because they detract from the central mystery surrounding the phenomenon. It weakens the plot, in my opinion, unless the link between the Misaki mystery and the Class 3-3 mystery is made clear in the remaining episodes.

[KaoruAoiShiho]

TinyRedLeaf I agree with your post after reading it. But for the duration of actually watching the show I was able to successfully turn that off and just watch the show.

[TimeSkip]

Yes, it's hard to buy Mei's mystic eyes of death perception. It's a fake eye for crying out loud.

I find another thing amusing. Mei said her mother who is actually her aunt wanted to keep it a secret that Mei is not her real daughter for the rest of her life. How is that possible? Although the girls were raised separately apart, they looked exactly alike and they were cousins. They were bound to meet each other eventually. What'd they think then?

Oh, you look just like me. It's probably because our mothers are twin. Teehee

[sa547]

Spoiler for Mei may think...:

...that her glass eye has "special powers" but I believe that she's more of a psychic, but prefers to keep this ability to herself, fearing that it could be misconstrued by her peers as a powerful property of an Another and thus be used against her (thinking of the Scarlet Letter or Carrie).

[Hakuromatsu]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

And yet, her glass eye appears to be more than just a prosthetic. She can actually "see" through it! That, to me, is stretching it a bit far. I, the viewer, am suddenly confronted with a new mystery, another anomaly, that appears unrelated to the phenomenon. The story is suddenly asking me to suspend disbelief yet further to accept what appears at the moment to be a weak plot device and a convenient deus ex machina.

Key words "at the moment." We need to reserve judgment for the time being; there's still 45 minutes of story left, and I'm willing to give Another the benefit of the doubt as it stands now.

I also believe that, even without a satisfying conclusion in episodes 11 & 12, it'll be too harsh to call the solution of the phenomenon's mystery by Mei's left eye a deus ex machina. The deus just made its appearance at the end of episode 10, during Kouichi and Mei's conversation, but the machina has been onstage for the entire story: she's been wearing the eyepatch since episode 1, we've known she has a doll's eye that can "see things that should remain unseen" since the beginning of episode 3, we've known that she lost that original eye to a tumor when she was four since episode 6, and we've known that Mei adamantly believes that Kouichi isn't the Another -- and that she has said so with her eyepatch removed -- since the end of episode 7.

So, I can't find fault with the show on those grounds. However, I will agree that the most intriguing aspect of the phenomenon is that almost everything it does has a natural explanation even if it's a supernatural occurrence, while Mei's "magic eye" can only be explained supernaturally. Again, I'll give Another the benefit of the doubt for now, but it may end up degrading the quality of the show and/or the show's conclusion.

[Atrum023]

Misaki's glass doll eye, is really a glass doll eye right? Or is it a case of heterochromia to which incidentally gives her the ability to tell who is dead? I'm sort of doubting it's a simple doll's eye since it seems to match the movement the other eye instead of staying in place...

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Atrum023

Misaki's glass doll eye, is really a glass doll eye right?

It's a glass doll eye. Misaki mentioned it...

What's somethiing to be wondered is why it has to be green and not the same eye color of the right eye...

[ninryu]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

It's a glass doll eye. Misaki mentioned it...

What's somethiing to be wondered is why it has to be green and not the same eye color of the right eye...

Well, keeping in mind her weird and creepy job, Mei's mother probably thought it's pretty and cool.

[Lord of Fire]

Originally Posted by TimeSkip

Yes, it's hard to buy Mei's mystic eyes of death perception. It's a fake eye for crying out loud.

I find another thing amusing. Mei said her mother who is actually her aunt wanted to keep it a secret that Mei is not her real daughter for the rest of her life. How is that possible? Although the girls were raised separately apart, they looked exactly alike and they were cousins. They were bound to meet each other eventually. What'd they think then?

Oh, you look just like me. It's probably because our mothers are twin. Teehee

In real life, you'll find tons of people who keep the true origins of their adopted children a secret, and only start giving in if the children start asking too many questions. The reason is probably because they fear their children will one day abandon them and stop seeing them as their parents, especially if they don't get along all that well.

So, it makes perfect sense for Kirika to not want Mei to know the truth. She didn't want to lose the only 'daughter' she ever and ruin the relationship with her even more (assuming they didn't really get along all that well from the start). It's just that Mei found out on her own and her 'mother' couldn't do much more than confirm her suspicion.

The mothers being twins would help in keeping the whole thing a secret. After all, if Kirika would look too different from Mei, people might suspect she's not her real mother. With a near-identical twin sister, that wouldn't be an issue.

[Unknown Soldier]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

What's somethiing to be wondered is why it has to be green and not the same eye color of the right eye...

Because heterochromia is hawt?

Originally Posted by Hakuromatsu

I also believe that, even without a satisfying conclusion in episodes 11 & 12, it'll be too harsh to call the solution of the phenomenon's mystery by Mei's left eye a deus ex machina. The deus just made its appearance at the end of episode 10, during Kouichi and Mei's conversation, but the machina has been onstage for the entire story: she's been wearing the eyepatch since episode 1, we've known she has a doll's eye that can "see things that should remain unseen" since the beginning of episode 3, we've known that she lost that original eye to a tumor when she was four since episode 6, and we've known that Mei adamantly believes that Kouichi isn't the Another -- and that she has said so with her eyepatch removed -- since the end of episode 7.

I don't consider it a DXM at all, as you say, the mystery of her eye has been developed throughout the story. She didn't just whip the eypatch off and say 'Surprise!' in this episode, we've seen her without it multiple times and she's talked a fair amount about her doll eye already. If anything, the big reveal about her eye has been built-up to this entire time.

If you want to see what a real DXM looks like, make sure you finish watching another show which will end this season, and you'll know exactly which one I'm talking about if you're following it and you watch the ending!

Spoiler for which show it is, DO NOT CLICK IF YOU DON'T ALREADY KNOW WHICH SHOW I'M TALKING ABOUT FROM THE HINT ABOVE:

Mirai Nikki

So, I can't find fault with the show on those grounds. However, I will agree that the most intriguing aspect of the phenomenon is that almost everything it does has a natural explanation even if it's a supernatural occurrence, while Mei's "magic eye" can only be explained supernaturally. Again, I'll give Another the benefit of the doubt for now, but it may end up degrading the quality of the show and/or the show's conclusion.

Again: Yomiyama Misaki appearing in the class portrait of the original Class 3-3 has no natural explanation. The entire show is built on a supernatural premise.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

I disagree that Akazawa's demanding an apology of Mei was all that objectively correct. While her frustration over the situation is understandable, I don't see how Mei can be made to assume any responsibility for what happened. If everyone was to treat Mei like she doesn't exist, it was over the moment Koichi approached her and tried talking to her, thus already acknowledging her existence. At that point it was already over.

The issue here is that they couldn't warn Koichi not to interact with Mei (never mind providing a coherent explanation for why he should do that), because said action in itself would have acknowledged Mei's existence. It was simply an unfortunate set of circumstances that Koichi was transferred to the class post Mei's selection as the "nonexistent" person, so him attempting to communicate with her was all but inevitable.

Originally Posted by Kanon

I couldn't agree more with you. My interpretation of Izumi's intentions was exactly the same, that's why I was disappointed in her for acting that way. Her attitude looks even worse from our point of view, since we know Mei has been trying to avoid Kouichi and push him away to no avail. She's done the best she could under the circumstances. It's not her fault Kouichi wouldn't leave her alone.

And I couldn't disagree more with the both of you while strongly supporting Forsaken Infinity's point of view.

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity

She didn't force the job onto Misaki. Misaki took it for herself. And she failed. From the PoV of Akazawa, a studious person, that deserves an apology. I am sure she realizes all too well herself that apologies change nothing. But a word of apology heals relationships.

The above is the crucial point in the argument, I feel. Mei could have declined the responsibility of being the "non-existent" student for the year, but she accepted the appointment any way. For her own reasons, Mei likely felt that the charade was pointless (we don't know for certain if she was appointed before or after her twin's death) but she decided to go along with it anyway, if only to give her classmates some peace of mind.

Yet, from my point of view, it has always appeared that Mei performed her role only half-heartedly. While it is true that she couldn't have known that she'd meet Kouichi in the hospital lift, thus triggering his subsequent curiosity about her at school, she didn't at the same time actively discourage Kouichi from approaching her. She even went so far as to talk to him when, by right, she should just have shut up and walked away, as the rest of the class did when Kouichi became "non-existent".

We now know that there is an important reason for this: Mei already knew that the phenomenon was in effect, so she wasn't particularly bothered about doing her utmost to stay persona non grata. She even told Kouichi as much, that it may already be too late, that it may not matter any more whether or not Kouichi acknowledged her.

If you were to look at this from Izumi's point of view, from the perspective of someone who takes her responsibilities very seriously, and who doesn't yet know that the phenomenon had started before Kouichi's arrival, it's easy to see why she was so frustrated with Mei. Izumi was doing her best, perhaps even putting her life on the line, to stop the deaths while Mei seemed irritatingly (in Izumi's mind) nonchalant about Kouichi's increasing insistence on interacting with her.

If I were a team leader with a dire responsibility, depending heavily on team members to fulfil their roles for the sake of everyone's success, I too would be incredibly annoyed if one of them takes a flippant attitude towards his or her duty. Like Izumi, I too would demand an apology.

Like Forsaken Infinity said, Izumi likely knows that the apology would change nothing. Yet it was a necessary first step towards clearing the air. We must not forget that the classmates (the unnamed narrators at the beginning of various episodes) were already talking among themselves, blaming Kouichi, for example, for talking to Mei and hence triggering the phenomenon. In that sense, Izumi was actually being brave by standing up in front of everyone and vocalising what most of the classmates already think but were too cowardly to say openly: that Mei was at fault.

Let's not forget that the Japanese are, culturally, very adverse to giving public apologies. It's something shameful that they would rather avoid as far as possible. If, like Forsaken Infinity also said, Izumi had confronted Mei privately, in a two-on-two cat-fight, for example, then and only then, would I feel that Izumi was being selfish and mean. As it were, Izumi was the first to accept responsibility for failure and apologise, before saying that Mei also needed to do the same. She wasn't trying to deflect the blame to Mei and that, to me, is key to understanding her actions in this episode.

Izumi is someone who confronts unpleasant circumstances head-on and is always the first to take the blame before carrying out a difficult duty, such as when she voluntarily apologised to Kouichi before carrying out the new counter-measure to ostracise him. This is the very trait that resurfaced this episode, and that's why I think it's unfair for people to blame Izumi for being "mean" to Mei.

The whole situation the class was trapped inside was already mean to begin with, but it was only Izumi who had the balls to try and do something about it while the rest of the class was content to just play along. If anyone or anything is to blame, blame the phenomenon and the Other itself, for bringing out the darker side of each person's nature.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

The above is the crucial point in the argument, I feel.

The boded part simply doesn't make logical sense, and thus is a complete fallacy based on emotional response and stress to the happenings, not rationality. The very notion that Mei can "fail" at keeping someone else from walking up to her and talking to her is absurd, it's completely beyond her control whether someone chooses to approach her or not. Whether someone acknowledges her or not is not something she can decide or influence in any way, shape or form, short of never leaving her basement at all and thus denying the very possibility that anyone would get the chance to interact with her.

It's completely up to others to do the "ignoring" part, Mei can't do anything about someone choosing not to ignore her, and thus can't be faulted if someone else decides not to. It was all over the moment Koichi walked up to her and talked to her, what she did or didn't do past that already bears no relevance - the gig is already up at that point, her existence has been acknowledged by the mere fact she was approached and talked to.

Which is why Akzawa was acting unreasonable - she tries to blame Mei for something that doesn't fall within Mei's ability to influence (the first time someone would approach her and thus acknowledge her). She can blame herself. She can blame the classmates. She can even blame Koichi - while you can't really fault him because he didn't know any better, at least that would make sense, because he was actually the one who acknowledged Mei and thus broke her "doesn't exist" getup, knowingly or not.

What makes no sense here is blaming Mei though, because that's really akin to accusing her of not being literally invisible. Her "job" entails sitting quietly in the corner and not bothering anyone. Which she did. The rest is for the other students of the class to uphold. Which they (Koichi) didn't. Hence why Izumi's action was illogical.

[Unknown Soldier]

Izumi wasn't acting unreasonable from her point of view. She observed that when Kouichi approached Mei and interacted with her, Mei didn't attempt to avoid him or ignore him. She engaged with him, repeatedly and quite blatantly in front of everybody. We in the audience are privy to the knowledge that Mei is aware that the calamity started before Kouichi returned to the class. Izumi is not aware that the calamity started with the death of Fujioka Misaki, remember that everyone else thinks that Fujioka was Mei's cousin, not twin sister, and therefore would not be subject to the two degrees of separation that defines the calamity's reach. So from her perspective, it's possible and even probable that the calamity began because Mei failed to ignore or avoid Kouichi. She definitely failed to be invisible in this case. The only person who Mei has explained anything to is Kouichi, because of the time they spent together while both invisible and then in the hotel room. Izumi doesn't know anything and so has formed her own incorrect conclusion, which is that Mei is partially responsible and her position is perfectly logical from her limited information.

And yes, when I say Kouichi returned to the class, I do mean returned, go watch the beginning of this episode again, it makes it clear as day that Kouichi was in Yomiyama before and met Izumi before, and the calamity altered their memories so neither remembers this. This is why Izumi is so insistent that she feels she has met Kouichi before, because she has. They were in the same class the previous year and even went on the class trip together and posed for photographs together, then for some reason Kouichi left and attended a private school, and then he came back. But upon his return everyone's memories were altered by the calamity, and so it appears that he is arriving in Yomiyama for the first time. This is why his conversations with his father in India are confusing, his father knows that he used to live there and recently returned, he does not and the calamity is obscuring his end of the conversation with his father.