AnimeSuki Forums

Huw M · 2007-09-30, 11:42

Takeshi Honda hasn't been in an episode since 11 (or was it 9), right? Surely he will be AD'ing the finale, and maybe some others if we are lucky. The first episode looked like he corrected everything, I'm sure he is taking a similiar stance the next time he does one.

Spoiler for My crappy fan art:

MrProphet: I think that refers to the person who does all the compositing of the different layers of animation, the pans, the parallax and stuff like that. It could also refer to digital effects (lighting and digital manipulation of the drawings). I just hope he hasn't run off with the ending or something, like that production manager from Darker than Black who nicked off with some production materials...

wao · 2007-09-30, 11:52

Hey, that's a helluva lot better than how I drew when I first started with a mouse and MS paint (no, nobody will ever see them even if they paid me a million bucks). I quite like her arm.

As Huw M said the "Director of Photography" (just directly translated from the Japanese, 撮影監督) means the guy who is in charge of composition of all the various elements. You will see the credit 撮影 or コンポジット or something along those lines in the credits, those are the actual guys who will take the scanned coloured pictures and overlay them on the backgrounds, perhaps modify the colours here and there, integrate 3D elements, do the panning and all, throw in some special effects and effects like blurring and so on. (In the days of cel animation I believe they used to actually operate the camera to shoot the cels overlaid on the background)

So the director of that is basically the guy in charge who liases with the director and the episode directors to relay instructions and discuss anything special. For example I would think that the scanlines you see on digital objects is added in at the "photography" stage.

I hope he hasn't run off with random stuff either... or even worse, died or something.

They haven't even put in a replacement in the OP credits. Hm..

MrProphet · 2007-09-30, 13:45

Oh, I see. This makes sense that somebody had to perform all of that post-production work on all the incoming in-betweens, KA and backgrounds, although I thought that was more of a grunt job (since there should be A LOT of it).

But maybe the DP just sort of organizes the process while his underlings do the leg work.

MrProphet · 2007-09-30, 15:22

Sorry for the double post, but I just watched episode 18 and, as usual, I have once again fed more oil to the flame.

Mojos for Great Justice!

Spoiler for episodes up to 18; various theories:

As for general thoughts on the episode...

Spoiler for 18:

The story is getting mysteriouser and mysteriouser. The preview promises some action too! 8)

flick · 2007-09-30, 16:22

ARGH >_< Still no english sub for episode 17, let alone 18. *wants to cry a little*

wao · 2007-09-30, 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrProphet

Spoiler for episodes up to 18; various theories:

But what about those fishes in episode 11 that spread out bubbles of old-space water? And how the space around the dinosaur illegal in episode 13 began to start looking like water? It's worth noting that digital fog/mist is a signal of "problematic" space and fog/mist comes from water.

Quote:

Spoiler:

That's the thing that confuses me, how can old space "spread" and be contaminated?

Someone on 2ch suggested (quite creatively, I might add) that The Other Side, or something like it, originated from an effort to let disabled people who may be unable to do certain actions (walk, play, express themselves) can do them in the form of a dennou body. This is based on one of the rumours (ep 16) that said that the first company to manufacture dennou glasses developed a technology such that the thoughts/feelings that come to your mind (心で思い浮かべたもの) would become digital objects (電脳物質化する). But nobody knows what happened to it after that. What it means is that someone who's sick and unable to move could think about moving and this could be applied to a dennou body...

But if this space became deprecated, then we have a whole space possibly with all these various semi-sentient entities that derived from real people... and if those real people's consciousness was left around they could form another "side", where desynched bodies end up going to...

...well, that still doesn't explain how or why they manage to "infect" new space with older versions. I guess that is why Illegals and other things like that eat Metabugs/Kirabugs - as joshualimmm (I think) pointed out it's like some form of data and the more they have the more space they can occupy (especially when it comes to invading newer space). That's also why Isako had to collect so many kirabugs to get what she wanted. I don't get why the keyholes are on her body, though...

I don't know what I'm talking about.

Quote:

Spoiler for 18:

I agree this felt more effective than the previous episode. It also felt more unified. Even if the Isako + mojo scene was recycled, ANY return of animated mojos (the one in the Winter Sonata calender in episode 14 does not count) gets my approval. Mojo!

P.S. Paku Romi voices Haraken. I think she did a particularly great job this episode. Isako's seiyuu is Houko Kuwashima. I guess you could say she was, uh, stellar

Huw M · 2007-10-01, 05:44

Just got my LE Denno Coil DVD 1 Box this morning. Bit dissapointed with the boring extras (which would obviously be a bit more interesting if I understood Japanese)

The grainy video is a really weird decision. Its not like I'm buying these for the actual video, rather I'm only doing it to support the show (and get the storyboard books), but I don't know why they had to put that filter on everything. Maybe its to make it look more retro or something. I also hear that film buffs like a certain amount of grain on the video...increases percuptual quality or somesuch. I haven't tried watching it on a regular CRT TV so maybe that would help.

Also, the cardboard slip the disc case and book come in is shoebox quality cardboard. It looks nice enough though I guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wao

Hey, that's a helluva lot better than how I drew when I first started with a mouse and MS paint (no, nobody will ever see them even if they paid me a million bucks). I quite like her arm.

Thanks

. And now I really want to see your early efforts, though I don't think I could afford to pay you enough :P

123Hamster · 2007-10-01, 06:04

Somehow seeing those illegals always reminds me of the missingno glitch from the old pokemon games. It's like they have so much in common.

SeijiSensei · 2007-10-01, 08:47

If the R1 DVDs don't have the quality of the Ureshii subs, I'm going to be very disappointed. One aspect of the animation that caught my attention right away is how "clean" all the drawings are. All the lines, especially those that define the characters faces, are exceptionally sharp. The R2 DVD screenshot that wao showed us made it look like Dennou Coil was filmed in "soft focus," that blurry technique usually appropriate to making actresses look a bit dreamier in romantic scenes.

If I were Madhouse, or moreso the crew that worked on Dennou Coil, I'd be very unhappy with the DVD product.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrProphet

Well, the TV version in your example looks like an HDTV rip, so it's not a big surprise that it looks sharper and crisper than the DVD.

Doesn't the DVD producer have the original 35mm version in all its high-def goodness to start with? Even if the show was only produced for 720p video, I can make a DVD version from the Ureshii originals that would look better than what's being sold here, and I only have limited tools at my disposal. To me, the DVD looks unprofessional in comparison with the originals.

flick · 2007-10-01, 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by wao

P.S. Paku Romi voices Haraken. I think she did a particularly great job this episode. Isako's seiyuu is Houko Kuwashima. I guess you could say she was, uh, stellar

I haven't seen episode 18, but Paku Romi and Houko Kuwashima are definitely two of my favourite seiyuus!

MrProphet · 2007-10-01, 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by wao

But what about those fishes in episode 11 that spread out bubbles of old-space water? And how the space around the dinosaur illegal in episode 13 began to start looking like water? It's worth noting that digital fog/mist is a signal of "problematic" space and fog/mist comes from water.

Oh, right. That's a good point. I forgot those. So, let's say Illegals also spread old space.

Quote:

That's the thing that confuses me, how can old space "spread" and be contaminated?

No idea. Perhaps the older versions of dennou space were somehow adaptive and self-repairing. Thus, they'd view all newer versions of dennou space as "corrupted" and would overwrite it with the previous branch of code.

Quote:

Someone on 2ch suggested (quite creatively, I might add) that The Other Side, or something like it, originated from an effort to let disabled people who may be unable to do certain actions (walk, play, express themselves) can do them in the form of a dennou body. This is based on one of the rumours (ep 16) that said that the first company to manufacture dennou glasses developed a technology such that the thoughts/feelings that come to your mind (心で思い浮かべたもの) would become digital objects (電脳物質化する). But nobody knows what happened to it after that. What it means is that someone who's sick and unable to move could think about moving and this could be applied to a dennou body...

That's an interesting idea. Would you think that Megabaa and her husband could have been part of that company as the developers?

Perhaps this is the reasons why the hospital let Yasako's grandfather treat 4423. If he has already previously worked on adapting dennou megane to quality of life issues, then he'd be competent enough to treat a sick patient (I hardly believe that a medical institution would let just anyone in).

Quote:

But if this space became deprecated, then we have a whole space possibly with all these various semi-sentient entities that derived from real people... and if those real people's consciousness was left around they could form another "side", where desynched bodies end up going to...

Then how did grandfather end up there? Did he desynch himself on purpose, as a way to seek immortality?

Quote:

P.S. Paku Romi voices Haraken. I think she did a particularly great job this episode. Isako's seiyuu is Houko Kuwashima. I guess you could say she was, uh, stellar

Oh, right. I just got confused again. I like Kuwashima as well, all the way since Noir. And "stellar"... LOL... not one of her best outings, if I may say so. 8)

Risaa · 2007-10-01, 16:13

Haha, haven't done this in a while:
Episode 13 by Ureshii is out!

joshualimm · 2007-10-02, 02:47

Great episode 18!! Love the visuals. Seemed to be a notch higher than usual.

ah....seems like my theory is down the drain. If...

Spoiler for ...:

The next time I decide to select a project/thesis, I'd most definitely be considering something to do with augmented reality using distributed network.

And I'll come up with my OWN version of "getting stuck in old space"... you'll see (lazy garbage collection, inefficient buffering, buffer overflow, etc. The whole nine yards).

flick · 2007-10-02, 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risaa

Haha, haven't done this in a while:
Episode 13 by Ureshii is out!

Thanks for the info!

flick · 2007-10-03, 16:42

Hope this doesn't count as double-posting, but unbelievably: Ureshii have just released episode 14!

http://ureshii-fansub.org/?p=115

turn_self_off · 2007-10-03, 21:49

just a little brainstorm, could it have something with the hidden feature that allows one to control the glasses with (near) thought?

so that if you have that active, and you go desync-ed, it mess around with your frontal lobe or something like that?

chrno · 2007-10-04, 13:26

Man it's been a good while since I've been here. Well, I had to stop watching the show. Not because I hate it, not because it sucks, but because I can't stand the wait! Yeah, that's right! I had to put this show on hiatus because it's just that good. I know that sounds weird but I can't take waiting and watching one ep. every so many weeks, months, etc... So I've decided to hold off until I have the entire series or what comes and then watch it. I love it too much. So I decided to just watch something else. Read book, hassle my niece and all that jazz until I can actually sit down and indulge myself in some 'Denno Coil' cake.

Risaa · 2007-10-04, 16:35

Ureshii is really on the ball now - they're churning out Dennou Coil releases within days of each other. Still need to watch episode 14, but this is darned encouraging.

flick · 2007-10-04, 17:03

@Risaa: I agree! Did they hire new staff or something? I remember reading on this forum (Sorry can't quite remember who wrote it) that they had had some problems due to staff vs. real life but to churn out 3 episodes on the trot is (still) unbelievable! I'm really starting to hope for 16/17/18, but that might be a bit too greedy ^^;

te2rx · 2007-10-05, 03:20

joshualimm: That whole theory about buffers and avatars that "simulate" their owners is pretty interesting. According to some people the human brain will be reversed-engineered by decade of Dennou Coil.

We know that the glasses allow kids to project their consciousness into virtual reality spaces (as opposed to the normal augmented reality spaces), and during that time they pass out cuz they b trippin. If you remove their glasses during this fragile moment of user/avatar de-synch, will they be in comatose indefinitely (or will it just temporarily hospitalize them)? I think it's the latter because a major theme with kids "lost" to the other side is their contact with illegals.

Spoiler for ep 18:

I imagine a dangerous illegal has to attack and devour your avatar during a fragile moment of desynchronization. Remember Yasako and 4423 were trying to outrun a crazed illegal in Yasako's hazy childhood memories (perhaps 4423's avatar was devoured on that day). From there it can, through your brain-linked glasses, copy your behavioral pattern and f-ck you up -- kinda reminiscent of "ghost-hacking" in Ghost in the Shell. Then you'll have this illegal likeness of yourself on "the other side" trying to whisk more kids like Haraken and Kyouko away -- just like the urban legends of Michiko.

Generally I'm trying to justify the occurances within the show without invoking too much out-of-context "voodoo". Translating your "true" consciousness to the virtual realm while leaving your physical body comatose, dead, or otherwise disconnected just flies too far into the Lain zone for this show... and Dennou Coil is not the meditative technology/philosophy-centric Ghost in the Shell movie either. Haraken coming to terms with a corrupted, illegal imitation is much more in line with his character's "theme" of dealing with loss and the show's general focus. I can't imagine an episode where he successfully rescues the "real" Kanna from her virtual prison, or otherwise bringing her back from the dead. 4423 can be saved though, seeing that he's not dead. Maybe it just involves rescuing his avatar and resynching it to his comatose body (with glasses on) in order to jump start his brain. And thinking much too far ahead, maybe his avatar can upload its virtual adventures back into his brain, so he can be all "thank you for rescuing me!" lol

Seeing those Searchmatons blow up in ep18 was totally rad by the way. I couldn't have been the only viewer who shouted expletives of joy at the screen.

wao: oh ok, I always wondered what "director of photography" does in an anime (especially in a digital context), and similarly who gets credited for all that fancy compositing you see in new anime. Seems like they're one in the same

2007-09-30, 11:42	Link #641
Huw M Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2007	Takeshi Honda hasn't been in an episode since 11 (or was it 9), right? Surely he will be AD'ing the finale, and maybe some others if we are lucky. The first episode looked like he corrected everything, I'm sure he is taking a similiar stance the next time he does one. Spoiler for My crappy fan art: So I started learning to draw recently, and I drew some Denno Coil fanart. If you squint your eyes and stand back from your monitor, it looks a bit like Fumie and Oyaji. It took me all weekend in MS paint :\| It looks pretty woeful compared to Wao's stuff and all the great fanart Maids! posts, I know. I'm not sure if its within the rules to post this here, so I'll take it down if need be...I'm just elated that I actually finished drawing something. MrProphet: I think that refers to the person who does all the compositing of the different layers of animation, the pans, the parallax and stuff like that. It could also refer to digital effects (lighting and digital manipulation of the drawings). I just hope he hasn't run off with the ending or something, like that production manager from Darker than Black who nicked off with some production materials...

2007-09-30, 11:52	Link #642
wao OK. Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The Fields of High Attus Age: 34	Hey, that's a helluva lot better than how I drew when I first started with a mouse and MS paint (no, nobody will ever see them even if they paid me a million bucks). I quite like her arm. As Huw M said the "Director of Photography" (just directly translated from the Japanese, 撮影監督) means the guy who is in charge of composition of all the various elements. You will see the credit 撮影 or コンポジット or something along those lines in the credits, those are the actual guys who will take the scanned coloured pictures and overlay them on the backgrounds, perhaps modify the colours here and there, integrate 3D elements, do the panning and all, throw in some special effects and effects like blurring and so on. (In the days of cel animation I believe they used to actually operate the camera to shoot the cels overlaid on the background) So the director of that is basically the guy in charge who liases with the director and the episode directors to relay instructions and discuss anything special. For example I would think that the scanlines you see on digital objects is added in at the "photography" stage. I hope he hasn't run off with random stuff either... or even worse, died or something. They haven't even put in a replacement in the OP credits. Hm.. __________________ Thanks for the fish

2007-09-30, 15:22	Link #644
MrProphet The Commissar Vanishes Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Tallinn, Estonia Age: 41	Sorry for the double post, but I just watched episode 18 and, as usual, I have once again fed more oil to the flame. Mojos for Great Justice! Spoiler for episodes up to 18; various theories: OK, where to start? - So, Haraken and Kyoko get desynched in or near the Keyhole to the other side. As we know, old-new space collisions produce desynching. Which means that either the keyhole itself is made of old space or The Other Side is made of old space. What does that mean? Well, for one thing it means that The Other Side isn't really a "state of mind" or a mental conjecture, it's more or less a real place. Or, at least, it is real in terms of dennou infrastructure. Maybe it's the Recycle Bin of dennou space! 8) And all those people were stranded there because the Dennou server confused their desynched dennou-body for some old space and basically deleted it! Wow! - The second idea I had while watching sort of leads from the first one. Remember how Tamako once said that no matter how much obsolete space they delete, obsolete space still keeps on growing. Now we have an idea why. Either the Keyhole or the presense of The Other Side spawns obsolete space, like what happened to Yasako's house when it got contaminated with obsolete space from the visiting Illegal (yeah, that's definitely the Grandfather!). I don't think that Illegals spread obsolete space. They just need it to survive, they don't spawn it. So, let's say that the Illegal came via the Keyhole to Yasako's house. That keyhole is what contaminated the house and allowed the Illegal to desynch Kyoko and take her away to the Other Side, right? I think these are fairly important plot points here: 1) The Other Side exists somewhere as an actual dennou-space. 2) The Other Side is made of obsolete space. 3) Obsolete space from the Other Side can contaminate new space and spread further like a virus. What do you think? As for general thoughts on the episode... Spoiler for 18: I thought it was a lot more effective than the last one. For example, Nekome's explanations to Isako did not feel forced. It naturally flowed from her new discoveries as opposed to him just telling "new info" out of the blue. I thought the tension in the episode was really effective. Tamako/Kenichi scene was, of course, the dramatic highlight, but there were other good scenes as well. Romi Paku did a great job playing a slightly confused and disoriented Isako at the beginning. Her voice-acting made it feel very natural to see her not fully understand what's going on and how her plans have slightly backfired on her. Mojos, as I've mentioned, are full of win and awesome! 8) The story is getting mysteriouser and mysteriouser. The preview promises some action too! 8)

2007-10-02, 02:47	Link #653
joshualimm Member Join Date: Aug 2006	Great episode 18!! Love the visuals. Seemed to be a notch higher than usual. ah....seems like my theory is down the drain. If... Spoiler for ...: one CAN get stuck in a virtual world... then I guess it's a little far-fetched, compared to what I had in mind (a copy of your consciousness that's stuck in the old space). At least, with my theory, I could actually see it happening not too far in the future. But to remove one's consciousness completely... maybe it's some sort of hypnotic coma/Ultra Depth hypnotic trance. Who knows... maybe a legacy feature of the older verions: "Hey kids! Get yer glasses now!! We'll make it sooo easy, you can just THINK, and you get to move around in the virtual world!!"... I dunno, that's the next closest thing I can think of. But hey, we're talking about a fictional story here, so anything goes. I'm just a loser who love to think more of his fair share. But oh well... It was definitely fun guessing. I'm still gonna stick with my "copied consciousness" though, cuz I can imagine that happening in real life. The next time I decide to select a project/thesis, I'd most definitely be considering something to do with augmented reality using distributed network. And I'll come up with my OWN version of "getting stuck in old space"... you'll see (lazy garbage collection, inefficient buffering, buffer overflow, etc. The whole nine yards).

2007-10-04, 13:26	Link #657
chrno Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: NJ Age: 54	Man it's been a good while since I've been here. Well, I had to stop watching the show. Not because I hate it, not because it sucks, but because I can't stand the wait! Yeah, that's right! I had to put this show on hiatus because it's just that good. I know that sounds weird but I can't take waiting and watching one ep. every so many weeks, months, etc... So I've decided to hold off until I have the entire series or what comes and then watch it. I love it too much. So I decided to just watch something else. Read book, hassle my niece and all that jazz until I can actually sit down and indulge myself in some 'Denno Coil' cake. __________________ Currently watching - 'Kill la Kill' "I'm afraid 400 years won't cover me."

2007-09-30, 13:45	Link #643
MrProphet The Commissar Vanishes Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Tallinn, Estonia Age: 41	Oh, I see. This makes sense that somebody had to perform all of that post-production work on all the incoming in-betweens, KA and backgrounds, although I thought that was more of a grunt job (since there should be A LOT of it). But maybe the DP just sort of organizes the process while his underlings do the leg work.

2007-09-30, 16:22	Link #645
flick 電脳コイル'd Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: UK	ARGH >_< Still no english sub for episode 17, let alone 18. wants to cry a little

2007-10-01, 06:04	Link #648
123Hamster Hamster Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: MAO	Somehow seeing those illegals always reminds me of the missingno glitch from the old pokemon games. It's like they have so much in common.

2007-10-01, 16:13	Link #652
Risaa Evil Little Pixie Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: bleeghhh Age: 36	Haha, haven't done this in a while: Episode 13 by Ureshii is out!

2007-10-03, 16:42	Link #655
flick 電脳コイル'd Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: UK	Hope this doesn't count as double-posting, but unbelievably: Ureshii have just released episode 14! http://ureshii-fansub.org/?p=115

2007-10-03, 21:49	Link #656
turn_self_off Member Join Date: Sep 2007	just a little brainstorm, could it have something with the hidden feature that allows one to control the glasses with (near) thought? so that if you have that active, and you go desync-ed, it mess around with your frontal lobe or something like that?

2007-10-04, 16:35	Link #658
Risaa Evil Little Pixie Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: bleeghhh Age: 36	Ureshii is really on the ball now - they're churning out Dennou Coil releases within days of each other. Still need to watch episode 14, but this is darned encouraging.

2007-10-04, 17:03	Link #659
flick 電脳コイル'd Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: UK	@Risaa: I agree! Did they hire new staff or something? I remember reading on this forum (Sorry can't quite remember who wrote it) that they had had some problems due to staff vs. real life but to churn out 3 episodes on the trot is (still) unbelievable! I'm really starting to hope for 16/17/18, but that might be a bit too greedy ^^;

2007-10-05, 03:20	Link #660
te2rx Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Chicago area, IL Age: 40	some ep18 spoilers joshualimm: That whole theory about buffers and avatars that "simulate" their owners is pretty interesting. According to some people the human brain will be reversed-engineered by decade of Dennou Coil. We know that the glasses allow kids to project their consciousness into virtual reality spaces (as opposed to the normal augmented reality spaces), and during that time they pass out cuz they b trippin. If you remove their glasses during this fragile moment of user/avatar de-synch, will they be in comatose indefinitely (or will it just temporarily hospitalize them)? I think it's the latter because a major theme with kids "lost" to the other side is their contact with illegals. Spoiler for ep 18: When Haraken found the likeness of Kanna on the other side, she appeared as an illegal (fuzzy black thing) -- same goes for the dark figure that takes Kyouko away, who we seem to suspect is her digitized grandfather. I imagine a dangerous illegal has to attack and devour your avatar during a fragile moment of desynchronization. Remember Yasako and 4423 were trying to outrun a crazed illegal in Yasako's hazy childhood memories (perhaps 4423's avatar was devoured on that day). From there it can, through your brain-linked glasses, copy your behavioral pattern and f-ck you up -- kinda reminiscent of "ghost-hacking" in Ghost in the Shell. Then you'll have this illegal likeness of yourself on "the other side" trying to whisk more kids like Haraken and Kyouko away -- just like the urban legends of Michiko. Generally I'm trying to justify the occurances within the show without invoking too much out-of-context "voodoo". Translating your "true" consciousness to the virtual realm while leaving your physical body comatose, dead, or otherwise disconnected just flies too far into the Lain zone for this show... and Dennou Coil is not the meditative technology/philosophy-centric Ghost in the Shell movie either. Haraken coming to terms with a corrupted, illegal imitation is much more in line with his character's "theme" of dealing with loss and the show's general focus. I can't imagine an episode where he successfully rescues the "real" Kanna from her virtual prison, or otherwise bringing her back from the dead. 4423 can be saved though, seeing that he's not dead. Maybe it just involves rescuing his avatar and resynching it to his comatose body (with glasses on) in order to jump start his brain. And thinking much too far ahead, maybe his avatar can upload its virtual adventures back into his brain, so he can be all "thank you for rescuing me!" lol Seeing those Searchmatons blow up in ep18 was totally rad by the way. I couldn't have been the only viewer who shouted expletives of joy at the screen. wao: oh ok, I always wondered what "director of photography" does in an anime (especially in a digital context), and similarly who gets credited for all that fancy compositing you see in new anime. Seems like they're one in the same Last edited by te2rx; 2007-10-05 at 12:23.