Character Discussion - Lelouch

[Anh_Minh]

The Zero persona, with all its mystery, is his tool. Why waste it?

It's what gives the BK their backbone. Remember when Kallen refused to see Zero without his mask? That was the reason. It would have made him human, rather than divine. And it's much harder to believe in miracles of human origin.

Maybe one day he'll discard the Zero mask, write an autobiography, and explain everything. But for now, it's in his interest to keep the mystique alive.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by m1thril

i think what dean is saying is that explaining your actions whenever you can is part of being a leader (which i agree since doing this will make things more efficient). He then elaborates on this point by giving examples of the two extremes. Of course, doing this part does not mean you're necessarily a good leader, but ignoring this part means that you are not as great as a leader as you can be. Though LL is a good leader (produces results with minimal casualties), he isn't great as he can improve on many things.

Pretty much. Was pointing out that Lelouch is far from an ideal, great, or even good leader. As far as leaders go, he really doesn't have much legitimacy. A single bad flop now would have seen him ruined.

Originally Posted by Irenicus

Was it a weakness, an unintended omission, or were the purposes of the actions consciously left out?

It's an intended omission, and reflective of Lelouch's hobby of Chess. Lelouch's leadership style can pretty much be summed up as "shoot where I point, jump when I tell you." It's an extremely micromanaging style, and it's compounded by the failing I mentioned. The combination of micromanaging and holding all the information to himself is a large part of why they would fall apart without him: he's pretty much trained them to be dependent on them, which is a terrible weakness.

There are, of course, some times that you can't explain why something must be done. For an extremely time sensitive nature, for intelligence reasons, because ignorance is a requirement, and so on. But it's Lelouch's policy to not do it: his conduct in the early episodes is telling. "Fire at three o'clock," "go to point xyz," or in the second fight against Cornellia "set these big drills up here." He had time to elaborate and explain such orders, but didn't. Sometimes such micromanaging can work. But as the first fight against Cornellia showed, it can also fall apart spectacularly if your soldiers have more mind than a well-trained dog.

Micromanaging and information-withholding are two means that smother initiative, and lower-level initiative is one of the most valuable tools of an army. History has proven time and time again that top-down commands and strategizing are risky at best, and especially against opponents who are autonomous and can act and react on their own. I hate to invoke Godwin's Law, but the styles between the German Army and the Soviet forces in WW2 is quite telling. Guess which side had upper-officer heavy management?

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Micromanaging and information-withholding are two means that smother initiative, and lower-level initiative is one of the most valuable tools of an army. History has proven time and time again that top-down commands and strategizing are risky at best, and especially against opponents who are autonomous and can act and react on their own. I hate to invoke Godwin's Law, but the styles between the German Army and the Soviet forces in WW2 is quite telling. Guess which side had upper-officer heavy management?

Let me guess: the Germans?

[Angel Star]

Lelouch...a very complex guy. He's like so smart and cool , very popular with girls but so cold and calculated,a man who will do anything for the succes of his plan. And still he doesn't want anything for himself and he fight for the happiness of his sister, for revenge the death of his mother and for the liberty of the "elevens".

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Pretty much. Was pointing out that Lelouch is far from an ideal, great, or even good leader. As far as leaders go, he really doesn't have much legitimacy. A single bad flop now would have seen him ruined.

Here we go again...

Look, Zero isn't going anywhere. You might believe Lulu isn't qualified for his position as leader, but the fact of the matter is he is the most qualified person the Anti-Britannia forces have.

If there was anyone in the position to step up and take over the organisation, such an individual would have done so, either before Zero appeared or during the time when Zero vanished.

It is not his fault everyone else in BK find themselves even less qualified than he is, and as such he stayed exactly where he is. Zero can't be ruined; bad flops had been happening all the time without him.

Zero's job is hard. It is a lot of responsibilities. Now, obviously Lulu is far from perfect, and he has made major mastakes constantly so far. But it is a fact that he made progress when no one else could.

[Silver Soul]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Here we go again...

Look, Zero isn't going anywhere. You might believe Lulu isn't qualified for his position as leader, but the fact of the matter is he is the most qualified person the Anti-Britannia forces have.

If there was anyone in the position to step up and take over the organisation, such an individual would have done so, either before Zero appeared or during the time when Zero vanished.

It is not his fault everyone else in BK find themselves even less qualified than he is, and as such he stayed exactly where he is. Zero can't be ruined; bad flops had been happening all the time without him.

Zero's job is hard. It is a lot of responsibilities. Now, obviously Lulu is far from perfect, and he has made major mastakes constantly so far. But it is a fact that he made progress when no one else could.

That much I can respect but it makes the BK seems worthless without his command and any rumors of them betraying him seems highly highly unlikely what the hell are they going to do? They can only rely on Kallen for so long before they find a counter and Todouh is just one man against an entire fleet he can't let alone handle Shen-Hu but I guess he's called a man of miracles for something.

[Yorae_paladin1]

Originally Posted by Silver Soul

That much I can respect but it makes the BK seems worthless without his command and any rumors of them betraying him seems highly highly unlikely what the hell are they going to do? They can only rely on Kallen for so long before they find a counter and Todouh is just one man against an entire fleet he can't let alone handle Shen-Hu but I guess he's called a man of miracles for something.

That also shows how desperate the BK are. They would probaly serve anyone who could help them.

But they should make prepations for lelouchs succesor in case anything happens to him even Lelouch himself pointed this out war is unpredictable and anything could happen.

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

Originally Posted by Yorae_paladin1

But they should make prepations for lelouchs succesor in case anything happens to him even Lelouch himself pointed this out war is unpredictable and anything could happen.

Is there really any such man int he OOtBK though? Todou is a good military commander as such, but he somewhat lacks the charisma that Zero has and besides, even before he joined the OotBK, he was shown to us as a man who prefered to serve others instead of taking the role of a leader himself. Ougi? He had the leader position once, but he failed to do much during his time as the leader. Tamaki? He'd make the order much worse than thye could be under the other two. Kallen? She's more of a warrior than a leader/strategist. There really isn't anyone in the OotBK who fits the criterias. Of course, for Lelouch, it'd be ideal to have someone who could take his place if something unforeseen happened, but there isn't anyone - yet, at least.

[orangejuicetang]

There's also the question of what the Black Knights will do with Lelouch after they have accomplished thier goals and he reveals his identity.

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

There's also the question of what the Black Knights will do with Lelouch after they have accomplished thier goals and he reveals his identity.

Well, there's the possiiblity that Lelouch will disappear after it's all accomplished, never revealing his identity to the others - but even if he stays, there's no gurentee that he'll ever reveal his identity - because his identity is a revelation that could possibly thrown the OotBK in disarray, especially after their goals are accomplished. Anyway, the reactions could vary IMO.

[Silver Soul]

Originally Posted by Yorae_paladin1

That also shows how desperate the BK are. They would probaly serve anyone who could help them.

But they should make prepations for lelouchs succesor in case anything happens to him even Lelouch himself pointed this out war is unpredictable and anything could happen.

You want desperate, look at Kallen plea for him in episode 7 after she snatched the Refrain from him, talk about pathetic

[DN24]

I'm thinking about how the Britanian would treat him if he reveals his identity? Probably the same way the Japanese treat Suzaku...The Oder i think will follow him regardless.As long as nobody know the truth behind Euphie's massacre LL will be well come anywhere except Britania...

[Silver Soul]

Originally Posted by DN24

I'm thinking about how the Britanian would treat him if he reveals his identity? Probably the same way the Japanese treat Suzaku...The Oder i think will follow him regardless.As long as nobody know the truth behind Euphie's massacre LL will be well come anywhere except Britania...

To be fairly honest even if the order does find out about Euphie massacre being a sham can guarantee that more than half of them would not even care, I'm talking about the JLF ,Diethart, Rakshata and even Tamaki not giving a damn since it worked out for them, plus the former three are pretty much sick of Britannia, the only person I can see morally looking down on it is Toudou and the only reason I see Kallen being pissed is because he lied to her and the Japanese (though she hated Euphie)

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

Originally Posted by DN24

I'm thinking about how the Britanian would treat him if he reveals his identity? Probably the same way the Japanese treat Suzaku...The Oder i think will follow him regardless.As long as nobody know the truth behind Euphie's massacre LL will be well come anywhere except Britania...

Well, probably. To the japanese, Suzaku is the ultimate traitor after all; from their POV he's the man who betrated his country to become a dog of their oppressors - and it's made worse by the fact that he's the son of the previous prime minister, as it makes him someone who should have stood up for his people, sorta . If Zero's identity was ever revealed, then most Britannians would treat him with the same sort of contempt that the japanese does Suzaku, even more so perhaps because he's the leader of the rebellion and a member of the royal family to boot...

[orangejuicetang]

Did Kallen hate Euphie? When did that happen? Also, I think that if somehow the whole truth was found about Lelouch by the Black Knights, I think that Tamaki would be pissed because Lelouch was Britannian, Ougi and Todou and some others would look down upon the Euphie massacre incident, and the rest would be pissed because he abandoned them in thier time of need to rescue his sister.

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

Did Kallen hate Euphie? When did that happen?

Hate might be a too strong word, but on the island, she showed contempt for Euphie, even going so far as to calling her "Doll Princess"

[Silver Soul]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

Did Kallen hate Euphie? When did that happen? Also, I think that if somehow the whole truth was found about Lelouch by the Black Knights, I think that Tamaki would be pissed because Lelouch was Britannian, Ougi and Todou and some others would look down upon the Euphie massacre incident, and the rest would be pissed because he abandoned them in thier time of need to rescue his sister.

Oh, didn't think of that I was going along of them finding out that the Euphie incident was a hoax not necessarily finding out Lelouch was Zero, also didn't episode 5 cleared up any misunderstandings of he abandoning them during the Black Rebellion?

[orangejuicetang]

Well, I felt that Episode 5 revealed that there was alot of discontent among the ranks of the Black Knights regarding the abandoning, but they sort of grudgingly accepted him back because he was the only one who achieved results and they might believed that he abandoned them in order to fight off another threat. But if they found out that that was not the reason, I don't think it would be unreasonable for the Black Knights to splinter into factions. Hell, I can already think of the chief arguement of the splintered Black Knights if such a thing were to happen. It would probably be something like "He can't be trusted, how do we know he has our interests at heart?"
Of course, this is all hypothetical of course

[LastOrder]

You know, Kallen found out Zero was britannian, she didn't really hate him, she kept on liking him >_>; And Kallen hates Britannians.

[Dann of Thursday]

The idea of a Britannian that was fighting for the Japanese probably appealed to her.