[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 3 Banquet of the golden witch

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Well I'm really not sure but if this was a realistic scenario and assuming Rudolf really is the gigolo kind of man that's how I would picture the story:

Kyrie's version: That sly Asumu! She stole my man with slutty seductive tactics then she made herself get pregnant to blackmail him. In truth he really loved me, not her!

Asumu's version: That Kyrie tried to steal from me my soon to become husband and the father of my child. Even thought me and Rudolf were engaged and both in love with each other. She took advantage of Rudolf's weak point for young women, even thought he clearly was in love with me and not her.

Rudolf's version: You know who I am, I am a player, what can I say... I like women, what's so bad about that? I really loved both of them, but of course I told Kyrie I really only loved her and I told Asumu she was the one that I really loved. In the end I married Asumu seeing as she was having a child and all, but then I started missing Kyrie, so when Asumu died no big deal I maried Kyrie right away.

Pfffffft

(I'm sorry Rudolph's version just made me laugh)

I don't think Rudolph is that much of a player guy. I mean, he's obviously a known womanizer, but looking from episode 1 Kyrie seems to have a good understanding of that and clearly has a good grasp over him.

Plus you have to wonder why Rudolph would pick Asumu over Kyrie - from what we are told Kyrie was pregnant at the same time Asumu was. So if he has two pregnant women then why pick one over the other? I'm pretty sure we can take Kyrie's word for it that Asumu blackmailed him into marriage.

And we should be thankful neither Kyrie or Asumu went off the deep-end and created a Nice Boat ending lol

[Jan-Poo]

And we should be thankful neither Kyrie or Asumu went off the deep-end and created a Nice Boat ending lol

Lol, I can just picture the scene:

RUDOLF: woah... sure it sucks I had to marry her, but well... it was for the sake of my skin. I seriously didn't want to end up like that Makoto guy. I should be thankful that no Nice Boat scene will happen to me.

NARRATOR: And so 18 years lates...

Jokes apart, if I look at the situation from a neutral point, Rudolf was dating two women at the same time and was having sex with them at the same time. Now if one of them was his wife I could understand the usual excuse "with her it was just for sex but I love only you" but this is not the case. It's hard to believe he cared for one rather than the other. Even if that was the case I would suppose that he would not end up marrying the one who he just used for sex (unprotected no less). It must also be noted that according to Kyrie's story both of them got pregnant at the same time. Was it a broken condom case in both cases? Talking about coincidences.
Now I could imagine Kyrie saying that Asumu tricked Rudolf into believing she was taking pills so to have a baby to use to blackmail him. Well but what about Kyrie herself?! Kyrie's story doesn't really sound right to me. It appears that her usual analytic logic doesn't work in this case. She's not in the position to know for sure what were the feelings of a blatant two-timer like Rudolf. A smart woman should do better than think Rudolf only loved her.

[Marion]

I agree with you, which is why I said before I found the story about Kyrie and Asumu's pregnancies incredibly weird. I'm sure that either Kyrie or Asumu was lying about their pregnancy to Rudolph. Fact that Kyrie's ended up in miscarriage is odd - miscarriage only happens if the body is unable to provide for the child or if there is such mental distress that the body ends up killing the unborn child.

Also, if Rudolph was that way then why remarry Kyrie? Because of the family rules he isn't in the exact same situation as Eva and Rosa, who have to be married. Rudolph could have just raised Battler on his own, yet we see he quickly remarries Kyrie.

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Marion

I agree with you, which is why I said before I found the story about Kyrie and Asumu's pregnancies incredibly weird. I'm sure that either Kyrie or Asumu was lying about their pregnancy to Rudolph. Fact that Kyrie's ended up in miscarriage is odd - miscarriage only happens if the body is unable to provide for the child or if there is such mental distress that the body ends up killing the unborn child.

Also, if Rudolph was that way then why remarry Kyrie? Because of the family rules he isn't in the exact same situation as Eva and Rosa, who have to be married. Rudolph could have just raised Battler on his own, yet we see he quickly remarries Kyrie.

Ummm... I don't think Rosa "has" to be married, seeing as she isn't and is still in the line for the inheritance. O.o

[Kitsu]

Rosa and Eva don't have to be married as well. Normally if they marry the will be no "ushiromiya" and get nothing from the inheritance.
Jessica is the only exception, the time she marries her husband will become the head of the family or the main heir

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Maho Momo

Ummm... I don't think Rosa "has" to be married, seeing as she isn't and is still in the line for the inheritance. O.o

In episode 1 it's stated that the only reason she is in the line is because nobody knows who the heck Maria's father is.

EDIT: In Eva's past memories at the start of EP 3 Kinzo basically yells at her that she's a failure and has to become more of a girl so she can get married

[Kitsu]

Well I think they doesn't have to be married but should be married.
Don't forget in the Ushiromiya Family girls are borrowed wombs...sucks but it is like that

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Well I think they doesn't have to be married but should be married.
Don't forget in the Ushiromiya Family girls are borrowed wombs...sucks but it is like that

True, but I don't think they are considered proper members until marriage. It could be a reason why Rosa is somewhat excluded from many discussions, as seen in Episode 2.

Yeah pretty much. Eva is the only exception because she convinced Kinzo that if Hideyoshi was adopted to the family and she kept her place on the monarchy that she could give him a heir before Krauss and make him into a proper potential head.

[Jan-Poo]

Uhm no for what I could understand it's like this:

One can inherit the Ushiromiya's wealth only provided his/her surname is Ushiromiya. So if Eva married in Hideyoshi's family she'd get nothing. If Rosa was married she'd get nothing as well.
Eva managed to still keep her 3rd rank position by making Hideyoshi marry in the family, and Rosa maintains her position because she never married (she is still an Ushiromiya).

Kinzo says that women should be good spouses and get married because that's the old mentality of the Japan he's been born in. There's really nothing unusual about that.

Jessica is a strange case I suppose it's given for granted that her husband should marry in the family, and probably Eva is hoping that that won't happen so George will inherit in her place. I think that if Jessica had a younger brother, she would be "free" to marry in another family so her brother would be the one to inherit the title.

I still see some incongruence with the fact it's been stated that Jessica's husband would be the true leader when in fact according to the family ranks Eva is still 3rd and Hideyoshi is 11th. This is probably a little mistake Ryukishi made.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Uhm no for what I could understand it's like this:

One can inherit the Ushiromiya's wealth only provided his/her surname is Ushiromiya. So if Eva married in Hideyoshi's family she'd get nothing. If Rosa was married she'd get nothing as well.
Eva managed to still keep her 3rd rank position by making Hideyoshi marry in the family, and Rosa maintains her position because she never married (she is still an Ushiromiya).

Kinzo says that women should be good spouses and get married because that's the old mentality of the Japan he's been born in. There's really nothing unusual about that.

Jessica is a strange case I suppose it's given for granted that her husband should marry in the family, and probably Eva is hoping that that won't happen so George will inherit in her place. I think that if Jessica had a younger brother, she would be "free" to marry in another family so her brother would be the one to inherit the title.

I still see some incongruence with the fact it's been stated that Jessica's husband would be the true leader when in fact according to the family ranks Eva is still 3rd and Hideyoshi is 11th. This is probably a little mistake Ryukishi made.

Not really. It works similar to how a royal monarchy would work back in old England.

Think of Edward the III. He had four known sons: Edward, Edmund, Lionel, John. Basically what happened was that Edward was the oldest and when Edward the III died he would become king. However, Edward died before his father. Now you would think the second oldest and alive - John - would become the next king, right? Wrong. Because Edward had a son, Richard, before dying so that son took over instead when Edward III died.

So basically working in that same perspective, Kinzo has four children: Krauss, Eva, Rudolph and Rosa. Now when Kinzo dies Krauss will take over as the eldest son, but if for some reason Krauss dies before Kinzo then when Kinzo dies Jessica, if married, would have her husband take over the family. If she isn't married by that point then Eva would be the head as the 2nd oldest. This is how I believe the Ushiromiya monarchy works.

By the way, I looked back on some of the EP 3 TIPs:

Spoiler for Regarding the Succession of a Witch, EP 3 spoilers:

To quote near the ending:

"Furthermore, during the play, Beatrice had also inherited that name, but this tradition only began recently. The predecessor was the original Beatrice, and all Endless Witches before her had different names. After that, it became customary that the name was also inherited, and EVA, following that tradition, gave ANGE the name of Beatrice."

So this means that the tradition to pass down the name 'Beatrice' is not something new. From the game we know that Virgilia had the name Beatrice before Beato, so she probably started the tradition. So Beatrice is actually Virgilia.

So here's the question: during Beato's 1967 story there was a Beatrice before the 1967 one Rosa met, that committed suicide. What if this first Beatrice was Virgilia and then Kinzo transferred the soul to a new body, the Beato body, and made the new Beatrice. This could be inferred as how the title of Endless Witch was passed from Virgilia to Beato as a right of passage maybe? Of course I could be grasping at straws.

[Jan-Poo]

Not really. It works similar to how a royal monarchy would work back in old England.

Think of Edward the III. He had four known sons: Edward, Edmund, Lionel, John. Basically what happened was that Edward was the oldest and when Edward the III died he would become king. However, Edward died before his father. Now you would think the second oldest and alive - John - would become the next king, right? Wrong. Because Edward had a son, Richard, before dying so that son took over instead when Edward III died.

So basically working in that same perspective, Kinzo has four children: Krauss, Eva, Rudolph and Rosa. Now when Kinzo dies Krauss will take over as the eldest son, but if for some reason Krauss dies before Kinzo then when Kinzo dies Jessica, if married, would have her husband take over the family. If she isn't married by that point then Eva would be the head as the 2nd oldest. This is how I believe the Ushiromiya monarchy works.

I don't understand why this contradicts what I wrote. I have nothing against the idea that if Krauss died before Jessica, Jessica would still be the heir. But I don't get why you think she has to be married for that. We have as a clear example Rosa who isn't married that still detains her 5th rank and her daughter even if of an unknown father (In old europe she would have been labeled as a bastard child) is still ranked with the same system of her cousins.

The reason I said Jessica wouldn't inherit if she had a brother is because she's a girl. And your Edward the third example won't help you with that, because in that system women didn't count at all. Actually the Japanese system isn't any different. Right now in Japan it's debated whether Aiko should be accepted as the heir even if she's female. If she had a younger brother that wouldn't even be considered. By the way Aiko has a cousin, and it's debated that the cousin should inherit in her place.

[Marion]

The whole thing is that the only reason Rosa has her place is because nobody knows who fathered Maria. If they ever do find out though I don't doubt Rosa will be forced into marriage with him and then lose her place. But it's obvious that she is somewhat alienated, despite having her rank, considering she doesn't talk much at the conversation at all and even chooses to leave early because of that.

As for the second thing...well what do you mean by strange when it comes to Eva and Hideyoshi's ranks?

[Jan-Poo]

How can they force her or rather force him to marry? °_°
Seeing as how Rosa is desperately looking for a man, I really doubt it's her fault for being a single mother, rather Maria's father just run away without taking responsibility. That or maybe Rosa killed him °°;

As for the second thing...well what do you mean by strange when it comes to Eva and Hideyoshi's ranks?

Because, if I didn't miss something, it is said that in the case Jessica would marry, then her husband would become the new family leader. However that means this man would be ranked number 1 in the family. This is in contrast with the concept that spouses of the siblings do not count anything, even if they are male like in the case of Hideyoshi. In other words there is a non sexist rule to determine someone's rank in the family (female and male are treated alike), but there is a sexist rule when it comes to determine the head of the family. That's what I find strange.

[Chadauw]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Because, if I didn't miss something, it is said that in the case Jessica would marry, then her husband would become the new family leader. However that means this man would be ranked number 1 in the family. This is in contrast with the concept that spouses of the siblings do not count anything, even if they are male like in the case of Hideyoshi. In other words there is a non sexist rule to determine someone's rank in the family (female and male are treated alike), but there is a sexist rule when it comes to determine the head of the family. That's what I find strange.

Well, the first (man) born and his succession prevail everything. That's how I see it. I don't find it that strange.

[Jan-Poo]

That's not the issue. The issue is that normally the spouse doesn't count a thing (even if male), but the the heir's daughter's spouse becomes the head.

[Chadauw]

Well, that's what I wanted to say. For the succession, the family of the childs of the head prevail over his brothers/sisters.

It may seam strange because of what you just said, but well... That's how they do things. I guess it's useless to search for logic in those old family rules.

[Jan-Poo]

Well yeah we agree it's strange at the very least ^^

It also is different from what is the usual japanese tradition. Battler himself says that "normally" the spouses aren't considered that low in hierarchy, that's just an ushiromiya's thing. And the emperor succession debate in Japan shows that normally George would be appointed as the heir, or at least there would be an huge debate over that.

[Northernme]

I kind of got the impression that Jessica is the future head only because Kinzo will be long gone by the time this becomes an issue (well, that is, if they hadn't all gotten killed in a random order). It seems to me Natsuhi and Krauss aren't quite as strict chauvinists as Kinzo, but on the other hand, if Kinzo had only had a single daughter, the successor most likely would have been the girl's husband.

That, or the daughter would've been raised in a hidden mansion to think she's a thousand-year old immortal witch and then married to her father. Who knows.

[maximilianjenus]

The problem with the sucession is that we are skipping one generation, the head is not going to be jessica or anything, the head is going to be krauss. then after krauss becomes the head, his family becomes the main family adn the other branches, thus they are left out of the sucesion.

[rogerpepitone]

Marion: I'm under the impression Rudolf married Asumu after Battler's birth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koseki

It appears that which Koseki Eva appeared in has legal ramifications.

Also, there were a number of reforms from 1970 to 1976. Maria was born after all of them; everybody else was born before the reforms.