[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[LyricalAura]

But there were no clues that someone was disguising as Rosa specifically, which is what Dlanor was getting at.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

But there were no clues that someone was disguising as Rosa specifically, which is what Dlanor was getting at.

All I did was question what the definition of a "clue" was to Dlanor. Does it always have to be something physical? Or can it be a statement made by another character or a hint in the narration?

By my interpretation Rosa specifically has no one suggesting she is acting out of character, but anyone else could have that kind of foreshadowing.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Judoh

You could, but Like I said there is plenty of evidence that someone could disguising themselves as another. Especially in episode 2 with Jessica cosplaying and singing Tsurrepettan. From Dlanor's perspective though she thinks it would be unfair to allow that in the story without some kind of Dialogue to foreshadow it. There has to be something else besides evidence I think. That's just my interpretation, of course.

"There have been no hints suggesting that someone had disguised themselves as Rosa!"

To clarify, the Japanese of this line can also be interpreted "There have been no hints suggesting that anyone ever disguised themselves as Rosa". It doesn't specify this particular scene. You can believe whatever you want, but Dlanor is only saying that there must be a clue somewhere suggesting that "someone" might disguise themselves as Rosa. You're free to believe whatever you want, but Dlanor's statement here doesn't technically support your interpretation.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Spoiler for chrono:

This is where I disagree about the best way to solve Umineko. Because of the magic scenes and the like, it is flat out impossible to prove anything beyond any doubt except for the red text. To solve the series, you need to make a few guesses and follow them out to their logical conclusion.

...

All I need to do at this point is show that this particular form of Shkanontrice has more hints going for it and explains more elements of the backstory than any other theory I've seen. Call it a temporary theory, which is convincing but only somewhat convincing at this point. So far, I think I've shown that pretty much all backstory elements can be tied together to at least suggest Shannontrice.

This isn't very convincing to me. The first point, that you can't prove things so you have to follow guesses to their "logical conclusion," is itself self-contradictory. Don't confuse the expression "following it to its logical conclusion" with an actual, logical demonstration (the "answer"). In the former case, as you said, you create a guess and follow it from the premise that your guess is true (or false). Just because you do not run into a fatal contradiction while following a line of reasoning as far as it will go does not mean you have found the actual solution.

Note that assuming the premise and not finding errors or contradictions doesn't mean the premise is true. I can "prove" that Gohda was accidentally responsible for every death in ep2 by assuming he was the bumbling culprit and trying to disprove it; as it so happens, Gohda could have accidentally killed everyone in ep2, but obviously that's absurd and not the real answer. It's a joke answer, but it's funny in part because it's a ridiculous premise that doesn't terminate in an obvious contradiction. But that doesn't make it right. It doesn't even begin to make it right.

It's also important not to make too many assumptions, or adopt further assumptions and premises as you go along. The former is my objection to the Author Theory and the latter is my objection to yours.

The second point I highlighted is confusing me. Just because a theory claims to explain "more" doesn't make it "better." For example, pretend for a moment that Author Theory is true. There's a lot that Author Theory basically considers irrelevant; most of the characters die without really resolving anything, there's no way to save them, etc. Shkanontrice definitely solves more than this. But that doesn't mean it's right. Which is self-evident; in a court of law the person who has the most proof always loses to the person who has one single perfect piece of proof. I have to think you meant something else though, so feel free to clarify before I try to take that criticism any further.

Perhaps more importantly, the author's answer doesn't have to be the one that resolves everything (although he's promised the mysteries are solvable, which means it should at least be possible to guess whodunnit). Ryukishi has said quite a lot that this isn't a traditional mystery. That might mean it's a mystery that plays with the traditional tropes and expectations of a mystery. But it might also mean that it isn't a mystery at all. Fiction is a question posed by the author to the audience; the author is not obligated to answer, and if he or she does, the answer does not have to be to the questions the reader expects to be answered.

Now, I do kind of think this is more of a why-centric mystery (understanding the motive leads to understanding the how and why), instead of a traditional mystery which is who/how-centric (understanding whodunnit allows you to peg their motive). I do think it is a mystery. But there are two as-yet unwritten episodes and for all I know ep7 will say "Pranked, it's actually a romance!" and ep8 will be Battler and Beato going on a date. I mean, I hope not, but I sure can't say it won't. And he's certainly suggested he will not answer everything. That could be so that people still have to figure it out at the end, or it could be because answering everything wasn't his goal in the first place.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

You're free to believe whatever you want, but Dlanor's statement here doesn't technically support your interpretation.

It's just an interpretation. And I do believe there is evidence to support it. You don't have to beleive it, but you have to beleive that I beleive it. So I would still like some of those clues please. Not immediately, It can be in the next day, or the next year. But even if it's small I need something that satisfies this interpretation for disguises to work under it.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

This isn't very convincing to me. The first point, that you can't prove things so you have to follow guesses to their "logical conclusion," is itself self-contradictory. Don't confuse the expression "following it to its logical conclusion" with an actual, logical demonstration (the "answer"). In the former case, as you said, you create a guess and follow it from the premise that your guess is true (or false). Just because you do not run into a fatal contradiction while following a line of reasoning as far as it will go does not mean you have found the actual solution.

Who said anything about absolute proof? I'm pretty sure I've said from the beginning that I do not know for a fact that my theory is right. You seem to believe, without any basis that I've seen, that it is possible to solve Umineko by logically proving that a certain answer is right.

However, if you look at the evidence from the actual game, it repeatedly hints that this is not the case. When Battler wins at the end of EP5, he says "There is no objective way of proving that this corpse is Kinzo's". The gold text argument shows that it's at least possible for any scene to contain a falsehood. There is no possible way to construct a logical proof without absolute information, and the red text is the only thing that is absolute in this game. Furthermore, even Featherinne states that her solution is one of a set of possible solutions. So, we have the two people who claim to have solved the game implying that it does not require a logical proof.

If you go back to my earliest posts on this, you'll see that I said this:

However, I know for a fact that there are least two ways to explain all of these things. One of them is more obvious but a lot less neat than the other. Knowing Ryuukishi, there's a chance that my entire theory now is just one step on the path to the final answer. Still, I have proof that this is a step he intended us to reach at some point.

Just give me a second and I'll start writing up the next part of the theory now. This is where you'll start seeing the actual results of my theory. I've very explicitly said that the theory I've proposed so far is not extraordinarily convincing by itself, but I'm getting there.

The next step is a big one though, so I ask that you give me a few hours time.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

So, we have the two people who claim to have solved the game implying that it does not require a logical proof.

That's not what they're saying. They're saying that it's impossible to provide objective proof for their conclusions, but that doesn't meant that they didn't use logical reasoning to get to that point. You'll note that Battler solved the game solely through applying the Knox rules to the games he'd already seen.

Furthermore, if getting to the solution requires the reader to pick a conclusion and follow it to the logical end without any real indication that the conclusion may be accurate, then we simply have Higurashi's god-awful mystery all over again. This is violating the very principle behind Knox 8, if not technically the rule itself.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Furthermore, if getting to the solution requires the reader to pick a conclusion and follow it to the logical end without any real indication that the conclusion may be accurate, then we simply have Higurashi's god-awful mystery all over again. This is violating the very principle behind Knox 8, if not technically the rule itself.

This may surprise you, but many people on this board enjoyed solving the puzzles in Higurashi immensely, and some of us consider it to be one of the most complex and interesting puzzles around. And that's entirely separate from the great story.

Let me clarify though. I'm not saying that there is no indication that my conclusion is accurate. There are literally dozens of indications. However, there is indeed nothing that constitutes a logical proof. However, since it is possible to reach through inductive logic rather than deductive, it is incorrect to say that it is unsolvable. Whether you consider this approach fair or not is a different matter, but it does give you a result in the end.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

This may surprise you, but many people on this board enjoyed solving the puzzles in Higurashi immensely, and some of us consider it to be one of the most complex and interesting puzzles around. And that's entirely separate from the great story.

I need to finish Higurashi's question arcs before I argue with you about this, but I always got the impression that the entire thing violates Ryukishi's Knox 8, as in it doesn't offer much in the way of clues that help to solve its central mysteries.

But I'm probably wrong.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

However, since it is possible to reach through inductive logic rather than deductive, it is incorrect to say that it is unsolvable. Whether you consider this approach fair or not is a different matter, but it does give you a result in the end.

If you consider "inductive logic" to mean "wild conjectures with nothing but circumstantial evidence supporting them", well, sure.

I do consider that effectively unsolvable, though. If the only way to arrive at The Truth is to merely construct a theory based off of observable information that can't be disproven, then it's a shot in the dark as to whether you'll be correct or not.

[Judoh]

No Higurashi had tons of hints like the syringe that causes people to commit suicide and Hinamizawa syndrome. The tips system is very different from Umineko though. Higurashi definitely didn't follow Knox's 4th and 2nd most of the time, but it didn't have to because it was closer to science fiction.

[Tyabann]

Well, hmm, if the "Answer" can be reached through conjecture alone, and must be reached through "inductive logic", i.e. observable information without contradictions...

Say that, for example, Shannon and Kanon are secretly lovers and are killing everyone for [X evil motive]. I could write up like ten paragraphs about it and provide what I consider to be "evidence," but I'd be shot down immediately because there's little in-game support for it, even though there is no (truly) contradictory information. (Battler has never seen with his own eyes any evidence that Shannon/Kanon had any feelings for George/Jessica at all, and there's no red about it either.)

Shkannon(trice), however, is growing in acceptance only because support for it can be found... but that doesn't mean the theory is correct. (In fact, unlike my Secret Lovers theory, there ARE a few contradictions that most people who tout Shkannon(trice) tend to ignore or gloss over.)

Ever heard of a "red herring"? But this is just rehashing old arguments, so I'll leave it. It should be plain what I'm trying to say.

Originally Posted by Judoh

No Higurashi had tons of hints like the syringe that causes people to commit suicide and Hinamizawa syndrome. The tips system is very different from Umineko though. Higurashi definitely didn't follow Knox's 4th and 2nd most of the time, but it didn't have to because it was closer to science fiction.

Are we really allowed to spoil all that here?

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Are we really allowed to spoil all that here?

It's Higurashi and this was already explained in the Anime. If it's against the rules I can delete my posts, but I don't think it is.

A drug causing suicide was asked about by Ooishi in the tips of the very first scenario so I don't think that's a huge spoiler at all.

[chronotrig]

@Kaisos Erranon:
Okay, now I agree totally with what you're saying.

Gah, this next part of the theory is very long. It's where a huge chunk of the supporting evidence comes in, but if I add all of it, it'll be a full book. I guess I'll just leave some details out and let you guys point out the bits you find weaker. Then I can go in depth on how I got to those.

[Judoh]

There's something suspicious about episode 3. Until this red it was never stated that any of the rooms were locked just that people and keys were found in the there that there were no traps used, and that no one is hiding. It's possible to create a closed room without the rooms being locked right? Ssol showed us before that Beatrice's definition of a closed room doesn't necessarily have to be a locked room you just have to be separated from the inside and the outside.


(episode 4)
The individual keys were found inside envelopes alongside the corpses!
In short, all keys related to the linked closed rooms were locked inside the linked closed rooms!!

But there is no red saying "All of the six rooms were closed rooms"

[chronotrig]

Spoiler for chrono:

Okay, at this point, I'm going to ask that you accept Shkanontrice and my gold text theory. Even if you aren't 100% convinced, please play along with me as I move on to the next part. It can't hurt to listen.

To save on space, I will omit a lot of my logic and evidence, but every line has a reason, so feel free to point line X out and I'll comment on it.

Spoiler for What is a witch?:

One quick thing before I go further. I've given my theory on what furniture is, but a "witch" is a special type of furniture who makes use of the gold truth rules. Simply put, a witch is someone who can create a lie that fools all witnesses. Since the witch herself is a witness, a more simple definition of a witch is "someone who can force themselves to believe in their own lies". This sounds stupid at first, but remember the chanting that all witches use. "Come, try to remember, what form did it have?" What they're doing is visualizing the result of their magic. They create a cat box so that no one can prove or disprove how they did it, not even themselves, and then they convince themselves that what they actually did was the illusion and the magic was the truth. Since it's impossible to check the inside of a cat box, it is impossible to disprove their version of the truth, and so in their eyes, it becomes the truth.

In order for this to work, however, the witch must be able to believe in their magic, which means that they must follow the rules of magic. It isn't important what the rules are, only that they are consistent. Though certain belief systems get around this, in most cases, only an idiot will believe in something they know is logically inconsistent. While you may not agree with Sayo's view of the world, I don't think she's that dumb. However, she is very impressionable and will take rumors of magic and sorcery as fact. Not too surprising though, since the person she considers to be her mother figure claims to be a witch

One more point. This is why EP4 tells us that "there must be at least two people to create a world" of magic. No matter how well you tell a lie, as long as it only exists inside your own head, you cannot truly believe it. You need another person to convince you as you convince them. We hear that strong magic requires strong belief by many people, and this is because it is easier to believe in something if many people around you believe it as well. You could argue that this is the basis for most major belief systems.

And for those who think I'm assuming too much here, take a close look at all of the scenes where this concentration trick happens. It always follows the same pattern, and every time they get an observer to chant with them, they always say "wow, X has such talent as a witch/sorcerer". This is what Kinzo's goal is: convince himself that Sayo is Beatrice so that he can see her one more time. Since we hear so often that Kinzo was the opposite of a "natural-born sorcerer", we can guess that he possessed a very logical mind which was deeply scarred when Beatrice died. Also, since it's said that he first "summoned" the witch Beatrice with magic, we can assume that this was the first major lie in the series that got believed.

Spoiler for LeadupA:

We now assume that Sayo believes in the gold truth (that if an event is believed by all witnesses, it becomes the truth retrospectively) and that she has been the one dressing up as Shannon and Kanon since "they" first started working at the mansion. This can be made practical if we assume that they were never given the same shift except around the family conferences, which is likely since we know that only 2-3 servants were on the island at all times except for the shift around the family conferences, and Genji was probably one of those most of the time. First Kinzo and then Genji were primarily in charge of setting the -on servant shifts, so this isn't just a random coincidence. They only had to pull off the double act a few days every year for at most three years, and moreover, these few days had all the adult guests too worried about Kinzo's life/death situation and the inheritance to pay the servants any mind. Genji was probably given more leeway in assigning them tasks.

However, while Sayo was able to pull off Kanon and Shannon convincingly, it's hard to imagine that a person could live pretending to be someone else for years and not start to be swayed by that personality. And we know from Ange's case that a "witch" believes the characters in her head are real. So, after all that time, Sayo herself started to be affected by the desires of Shannon and Kanon.

Assume the "Sayo loved Battler" theory, not only because Shannon made a white horse comment, but because Leviathan, a character who exists inside Beatrice's head, seemed so pissed off when Kyrie made a similar white horse comment about Rudolf in EP3. We know that Battler leaving for six years is one of the causes of the tragedy, that it's something which causes "Beatrice" great pain in EP4, and that the Beatrice character that Battler sees in EP4 seems tailor-made to try and fit his ideal, both physically and with personality. In addition, after Battler has the "then I knew" moment in EP5, he suddenly seems a lot closer to Beatrice in EP6.
All of this put together strongly suggests that Sayo had a crush on Battler six years ago, and that Battler leaving for six years somehow lead to the crime.

Well, what were the results of Battler leaving for six years? Eventually, Sayo started to like George while serving as Shannon. She still felt strongly for Battler, but since he'd been gone so long, she would naturally start to give up on him. However, she couldn't start up a relationship with George using the Shannon personality so easily. First off, Shannon was only furniture, not Sayo's true self. Second, she still felt strongly for Battler, so it was difficult to abandon that hope completely. This probably lead to the rule "it is impossible for furniture to love a human".

All things considered, this was a very sensible rule, and it would have saved her a lot of trouble if she'd kept it. But we hear that after much time passed, Shannon began wanting more and more to be with George, and Battler didn't seem to be coming back to the island anytime soon. As a witch, she couldn't just decide that furniture is suddenly allowed to love a human, so she must find a magical rule for getting around this.

Spoiler for LeadupB:

From here on, remember that this is mostly a drama inside Sayo's head where characters interact. We know from Ange's experience that such a thing is possible as long as you have a creative enough imagination (e.g. the stakes).

At this time, her Beatrice personality already exists and has been playing pranks all over the island to make people suspect that a witch actually might exist. The more this happens, the more believable the ghost story sounds, which makes it harder for people to doubt the witch in the future (eliminates the toxin). However, this Beatrice is supposedly powerless and ghost-like. There is also a rumor, possibly explained by Kumasawa, that the sacred mirror on the reef is responsible for sealing evil spirits, and Beatrice might well be described as an evil spirit.

So, if Beatrice is to gain enough power to help Shannon get around the rule of furniture, it's logical that the mirror sealing her power must be destroyed. Also, undergoing trials to achieve some benefit is a basic principle in many superstitions. So, Beatrice appears before Shannon and Kanon, telling them that they cannot find love unless they restore her power with their own hands. The Kanon personality is much more conservative, quiet and reserved, which is reasonable since Sayo has to dress up as a boy every time she acts his part. However, his lack of emotion makes him think more logically, and he realizes the bad side effects of furniture falling in love.

Despite Kanon's protests, Shannon goes and smashes the mirror. It is now possible by the rules of Sayo's magic to have Beatrice transform Shannon from furniture to a "human". The gold butterfly amulet is just a symbol of this transformation. While she has that amulet, Sayo is able to convince herself that it's okay for Shannon to go out with George, and after some time, they do get together.

Eventually, Shannon, ecstatic over the feeling she's now experiencing, wants to share that feeling with Kanon. The character Shannon loves the character Kanon and wants him to be happy, just like the character Sakutaro loves Maria in Ange's world. Sayo must have her furniture behave in a consistent manner, and she also might truly want Kanon to be happy. After all, with her theory on truth, "Kanon" actually does exist in the past as long as she chooses to believe that. Obviously, it's clear that when Shannon suggests Kanon go with Jessica to the school festival, she's letting her emotions get in the way of her better judgment. She wants Jessica to be happy, and she knows that this will make her happy. However, as before (thankfully), the Kanon personality represents Sayo's logical side. Though Sayo does love Jessica very much as a friend and feels a deep connection with her (they're both trapped on the island much of the time, both live rigid lives, both create other personalities to live a little more freely), she never allows Kanon to accept Jessica's love. This hurts Jessica in the short term, but is probably better for her in the long term. Still, it's likely that Sayo feels a sense of obligation to Jessica for the pain she's caused her, and at least the Kanon personality probably does feel love for her. This is an important factor.

Then, we get what turns out to be bad news. George and Shannon get close enough that Shannon tells him her real name, and they eventually decide to get engaged. I do not think that she tells him the truth about furniture, since there has been no evidence showing that so far. Also, George seems to be truly crushed when Shannon's corpse is discovered in EP1, even though Kanon is standing right in front of him.

The engagement wouldn't really be the end of the world by itself. Jessica liked Kanon, but she would get over it eventually if he disappeared. Shannon accepting the engagement suggests that she treasured her relationship with George more than the one with Jessica, so the Shannon personality prevailed over Kanon and took control of Sayo's actions. However, on the same day that George was to propose to Shannon, Battler came back, the stupid moron. (okay, it wasn't really his fault)

Spoiler for Motive:

At this point, Shannon is in a fix. The love she felt for Battler must have been extremely strong even then, and here he is coming to return to her. Also, if we're to believe the Beatrice in the EP5 trial, Battler must have made some kind of promise to her, and Beatrice isn't the type to break promises. She's already in a fix with having to choose between Shannon and Kanon, and she now has to deal with the one she felt most strongly for. On top of that, she had created a second Beatrice personality to match Battler's (the first one was the witch Kinzo wanted to revive, thus all the two Beato scenes) and she couldn't abandon that personality without breaking the rules of her magic. So both magical logic and emotion combined, along with a desire to resolve the mess between Kanon and Shannon. Beatrice then decided to solve all of her problems in one go by creating a massively large gold truth.

If she can truly convince "all witnesses" that the epitaph murders were carried out with magic, then she believes that the ceremony of the epitaph will become the truth. The last stage of the epitaph is described as a kind of heaven, where the "lost love" between all people will be restored and where "all of the dead will be brought back to life". If she can convince "all witnesses" that the story of the epitaph is true, then everyone will be together in the Golden Land and the love she felt for Battler would be regained.

Important to note is that among the people to be revived, the illusions of "Kanon", "Shannon", "Beatrice" and "Kinzo" have all been carefully preserved throughout the ceremony. So, if "all witnesses" believe in the ceremony and believe that Kinzo was killed during the ceremony, they will believe that he revives at the end, along with the witch Beatrice. So another important motive Sayo has is to preserve the illusion that Kinzo's alive so that he will revive and finally be reunited with Beatrice at the end. That's why Kinzo's corpse is always used for one of the twilights. Also, since the character "Kanon" is male, presumably the human "Kanon" created at the end of the game will also be male. Weird as it may sound, it means that Sayo wants a happy end for Jessica as well.

You may have noticed that I've been oddly vague about the "all witnesses" thing. This is where the theory splits into two: the author theory and the Battler-centric theory. It is impossible to prove that either is false, but both are very important, and both work with the first half of my theory. This is what I meant by "I don't know whether I've reached the final stage yet".

Spoiler for The author theory, Shkanontrice version:

Magic is a truth that cannot be disproved, and the greatest magic is something that a great many people believe in. In order to get a great many people to believe in something false, you must take an astronomical risk, but it brings along with it astronomical rewards (an idea that Kinzo spoke of often and that Kanon was clearly aware of).

There is only one world, which ends with Ange's future. We don't know what actually happened on the island, but we do know that it was a giant cat box for everyone except Eva (in other words, there was little to no evidence remaining to disprove any theory). We do know that two message bottles were found with descriptions of how the murders might have played out, and that these were written with Sayo's handwriting (from Maria's diary; Ange remembers enough about Maria that we know the story can't be entirely fake). Since they were sent out in such an uncertain manner, it's likely that there were more of these bottles that hadn't been discovered.

Any one of these bottles would be viewed as an eyewitness account of the crime, providing the only evidence of what had happened. If Eva hadn't survived and proved the first message bottle wrong, this would have become the only explanation in existence for the crime. Then you have all the conditions needed for magic: a cat box and a single explanation for it. All that's left is to bet on the tiny chance that the world will accept that explanation. Since Kuwadorian is a storehouse for many occult books that are precious on a worldwide scale, it would be easy for many people to believe something weird happened on the island, and the existence of the Witch Hunt proves that some people were convinced that something happened.

However, there were two problems with this perfect cat box. Something went wrong. First off, Eva survived by escaping to Kuwadorian, which not only knocks a hole into the box, but also blatantly contradicts the message bottle.
Second, there was another message bottle found later that contradicted the first one. It makes sense that Beatrice would send multiple ones out in case one failed, but sending out ones with different stories shows just how great she was playing with risk to create a great magical power.

In this version, Sayo ends the crime by somehow causing a massive landslide to destroy all the evidence on the island. In her second story, she describes the Golden Land as some kind of heaven, so the earthly bodies of the people on the island are not important and can be destroyed to hide the evidence. She believes that if enough people believe the stories on the message bottles, everyone on that island will truly exist in that heaven, as will the furniture and the love between all pairings. This is a natural application of the gold truth.

For this case, the stories are completely fictional, but all based on the truth of what happened before the crime. Beatrice is said to be a mystery buff, so she would love to set up a closed room murder with a nearly impossible solution (assuming you only have one message bottle story). Since there were probably more bottles, it's possible that the stories for 3-6 were also floating somewhere, just not discovered yet in 1998. And of course, it would be very possible for those episodes to be additional "explanations" made by someone who had understood the truth from the first two bottles. Hachijo represents both of these theories, since it's left unclear whether she created the stories on her own or just found another message bottle and tweaked it a little.

I think that the author's theory is Featherinne's theory. All the non-meta scenes we see with Ange and Hachijo represent Featherinne's guess after reading the games we have (she is the Witch of Theatergoing). When that little world is ending, she shows Juuza talking to Okonogi, suggesting that she thinks he was the one who sniped Kasumi and friends and possibly Ange as well on Rokkenjima.

If you apply this theory, it is possible to solve the riddles in all stories by assuming that Sayo committed the murders and the one who solves the epitaph continues on in her place. (Sayo promised to stop killing after the epitaph is solved, so this is needed) It is not, however, what I think is the correct theory, and it has several parts that need a bit of a twisted explanation to make them work.

Spoiler for The Battler-centric theory:

Coming soon... I think I'll be busy for like a week defending what I've put here so far. Try to have an open mind, and let me know the weak spots so that I can explain my reasoning.

......Yeah, that was insanely long, and I might have screwed up a line or two. Please let me know if you see a problem.

[Judoh]

@Chronotrig I will add a suggestion on top of your theory of the gold truth. It's not to bash you theory it's just to make it make a little more sense. If you beleive magic = religion. Then gold text = doctrine.

In other words it's not necessary for the gold to be false since you cannot prove or disprove it (Agnosticism). In that case if Shannon believes in it it is her "doctrine" and it is true for her. With this theory she can use this doctrine to convince (convert) people to follow her magic (religion).

Also you can explain away Ange's contradicting statements in that golden land scene by saying she is using miracles instead of magic. Because clearly ANGE's magic can't exist in that world, but maybe miracles can.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Judoh

@Chronotrig I will add a suggestion on top of your theory of the gold truth. It's not to bash you theory it's just to make it make a little more sense. If you beleive magic = religion. Then gold = doctrine.

In other words it's not necessary for the gold to be false since you cannot prove or disprove it. In that case if Shannon believes in it it is her "doctrine" and it is true for her. With this theory she can use this doctrine to convince (convert) people to follow her magic (religion).

I don't think doctrine is necessarily the best term. Sayo's theory on truth doesn't require that she convert all witnesses to her religion, it just means that she must convince them that X is the truth. Of course, converting someone to a religion is one strong way of doing this, but that's not all there is to it.

Also, a gold truth doesn't necessarily have to refer to what we'd call magic. Any lie that is believed by all witnesses becomes a truth with Beato's theory.
Then again, I can't prove this particular interpretation. I just think it's more simple and general.

Of course, as I've already said before, I don't think it has to be an actual lie. As long as everyone believes in it, it becomes a gold truth, regardless of whether it was true or not in the first place. Hence the cat box.

Edit: I guess, all things considered, doctrine works well enough, just not in the normal sense of the word.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

I don't think doctrine is necessarily the best term. Sayo's theory on truth doesn't require that she convert all witnesses to her religion, it just means that she must convince them that X is the truth. Of course, converting someone to a religion is one strong way of doing this, but that's not all there is to it.

Also, a gold truth doesn't necessarily have to refer to what we'd call magic. Any lie that is believed by all witnesses becomes a truth with Beato's theory.
Then again, I can't prove this particular interpretation. I just think it's more simple and general.

Of course, as I've already said before, I don't think it has to be an actual lie. As long as everyone believes in it, it becomes a gold truth, regardless of whether it was true or not in the first place. Hence the cat box.

Edit: I guess, all things considered, doctrine works well enough, just not in the normal sense of the word.

Well considering how she reacts to George saying magic wasn't part of their relationship in the manga. If she is really telling people these "catbox lies" I think she at least believes they are true. Even Beatrice believed Sakutarou was the only one of his kind ever made, but when she tried to say it in red she couldn't say he was the only one Rosa ever made. It was true for her, but unfortunately she couldn't say it.

It might be better to call them "half truths" rather than lies.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

That's why Kinzo's corpse is always used for one of the twilights.

In episode 2, which twilight was Kinzo's corpse used for?

I love the theory Chronotrig. I hope this puts all the doubters to rest once and for all. Good job.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Ssol

In episode 2, which twilight was Kinzo's corpse used for?

I love the theory Chronotrig. I hope this puts all the doubters to rest once and for all. Good job.

Don't count on it.