[Manga] Naruto Chapter 592 Discussion

[HasuMasu]

Orochimaru...doesn't seem like himself?

I don't know, this is weird.

[Aqua Knight]

To be honest I am so happy that Oro returns. And the last page of chapter is awesome even though Sasuke and Orochimaru are kinda out of character.

[haegar]

Spoiler for 593:

feel free to use spoilers
anyways, wouldn't put too much stock into them being "out of character", some alliance deal is being struck here as they need each other atm but clearly the power balance between Oro/Sasuske is different from before - I think Oro will hold back some longer, not only as he seems to need to regain strength but also as he seems curious about Sasuske's growth and character development - eventually there's gonna be the old clash v2 but it might take long to get there and they seem much more on even ground now which is nice twist - btw I could totally root for Sasuske/Oro vs Madara, that would be epic

[Hunter]

The Thread for Chapter 593 has been opened. Please move all relevant discussions to the new thread.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Vindi89

You brought up Naruto's (who didn't even shield his vision) incompetency at dealing with a finger Genjutsu, to compare to Orochimaru who was vastly superior to Naruto at that point.

orochimaru is weak against genjutsu, particularly sharingan based ones. not as weak as naruto was at that time, but still not up to par with itachi at all

I'm not sure if you're purposely being dense or you just aren't even following along. Let me recap for you.

i feel the same way...

Me: Orochimaru should have used Edo 1st Hokage to beat Itachi. It makes no sense though since the author intended Itachi>Orochimaru. (This is a plot hole)

no it isn't... this makes no sense at all

You: (trying to explain the plot hole away) Itachi puts anyone who tries to attack him into an instant mind rape. Then end.

pretty much. have you read this series?

Me: Orochimaru doesn't even need to look at Itachi to fight him. Just have Edo 1st Hokage deal with him.

pure assumption based on nothing

At this point you initiated random petty arguments and work arounds instead of addressing that issue.

nope. i answered all your nonsense bit by annoying bit. its you who have resorted to name calling and randomness since nothing you say holds any water

So getting back to your paragraph no Orochimaru wouldn't be fighting him with his eyes closed. The Edo Zombie would. Are you following along now? Now that you FINALLY agree that not looking at Itachi in some way or form is a "precaution to take against itachi for sure".

i think you should quit while you're behind and not completely lost in a world of nonsense

You lose on argument and jumped to another.

nope. that has been you. just check our posts. every time i prove one of your inane points wrong you forget it and move to something else

I'm not going to get into the play by play of a fight between Orcho and his Edo Zombies vs Itachi. Just remember as character you named yourself after said himself "Each Jutsu has a weakness". Interestingly enough, if Orochimaru did use Edo Zombies to attack Itachi, they would have shared no physical connection what so ever (the requirement for setting up Izanami).

assuming itachi couldn't beat the ET zombie which is a dumb assumption

As far as I'm concerned I made my point. Which I will repeat for you again since apparently you have a hard time following along:

nope. i got it. you've been having a hard time following along with how it is wrong

The 1st Hokage was never meant to be this strong, it makes no sense that Orochimaru didn't use him to defeat Itachi at anypoint after acquiring that ability.

this proves you have not payed attention to anything I've said. long long story short, orochimaru's ET was not capable of using the first to his potential. it was explained by kabuto to ET deidara.

if you want to disregard the retcon, then at that time of oro using ET on sarutobi, hashirama wasn't that strong and couldn't beat sarutobi with his brother and oro on his side. therefore, he couldnt have beaten itachi either. get it? good

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

orochimaru is weak against genjutsu

Since when? The only person that ever put him in one was Itachi.

particularly sharingan based ones.

Who isn't other than another Sharingan user, rinnegan user or puppet aka Sasori?

Your example was pointless because I was speaking of a completely shielded vision (somethign Naruto didn't do)

i feel the same way...

Good cause you can go argue with your own words now. I'm done going in circles here.

Originally Posted by Vindi89

Orochimaru should have used Edo 1st Hokage to beat Itachi. It makes no sense though since the author intended Itachi>Orochimaru. (This is a plot hole)

no it isn't... this makes no sense at all

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

i agree with Ero-Senn1n that we as fans of the series can work out the retcon to make sense for the lack of power that hashirama displayed against sarutobi

That's you acknowleding a plothole yet now saying it makes no sense btw.

Originally Posted by Vindi89

Orochimaru doesn't even need to look at Itachi to fight him. Just have Edo 1st Hokage deal with him.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

pure assumption based on nothing

Nothing? Then you're retracting:

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

it's one precaution to take against itachi sure

And ignoring a very similar situation in which:

Originally Posted by Vindi89

Oh how about that time when Kakashi told Gai and the other Jounins not to look into Itachi's eyes. What about when Gai attacked Itachi without looking at his eyes?

its you who have resorted to name calling and randomness since nothing you say holds any water

I've called you a biased itachi fanboy (do I really need to prove this?) and dense (take a look at you arguing against your own words as evidence if need be). I don't think I've miss named you one bit.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

assuming itachi couldn't beat the ET zombie which is a dumb assumption

Originally Posted by Vindi89

As beastly as you think Itachi is, he couldn't stand toe to toe with the 1st Hokage as far as he's been hyped up to be

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

no one but madara can

this proves you have not payed attention to anything I've said.

Well, we certainly know you haven't been paying attention to anything you said.

long long story short, orochimaru's ET was not capable of using the first to his potential.

This is your own assumption based on absolutely nothing other than your brain being incapable accepting that Hashirama was later reconned after his first introduction in that fight. You don't have to take my word for it either. You see other forum-goers actually use their brain as a person who exists outside of the world of Naruto and come up with the LOGICAL conclusion, NOT some biased fanboy assumption.

Originally Posted by james0246

One possible suggestion is that Orochimaru's control of the dead wasn't as strong, so the summoned souls could slightly disobey his orders (I.e. they would fight, but not at full power).The most likely speculation, though, is that Orochimaru simply ordered the zombies to play around with Sarutobi.

Originally Posted by Hunter

The latter isn't even speculation, it's a fact apparent from when Orochimaru explained he was doing it to torture Sarutobi emotionally and was then confirmed in the Data book.

Originally Posted by Hunter

Now of course the real answer is the fact that powerscaling has dramatically increased in the last ~450 chapters

Originally Posted by Shining Celebi

james has a great interpretation above. But to state as an unequivocal fact that Orochimaru's Edo Tensei zombies couldn't use their full powers is wrong. These are all nothing more than our attempts to paper over a gaping plot hole in the story.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

it was explained by kabuto to ET deidara.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt here and went to reread that chapter (513 pg 2). Kabuto merely says he is using a different tailisman that won't completely supress Deidara's personality unlike Orochimaru's. There's no mention of of the first or Orochimaru's ability to use ET.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

if you want to disregard the retcon, then at that time of oro using ET on sarutobi, hashirama wasn't that strong and couldn't beat sarutobi with his brother and oro on his side. therefore, he couldnt have beaten itachi either. get it? good

This is the icing on the cake. To have you actually spit back at me what I've been trying to drill into your head for the last 2 pages is priceless.

Yes, Orochimaru, ET 1st and ET 2nd Hokage didn't beat the 3rd Hokage. He definitely couldn't beat Itachi with what was displayed in that fight. Later Harashima was reconned to be an uber ninja second only to Rikkudo Sennin at this point in the manga. I was never ignoring or disregarding the recon. It has been the point of my discussion from the beginning. Its your fanboy mind that's still stuck in this being an Orochimaru vs Itachi fight (which I've stated 2 times prior and finally a third time: I'm sure the author meant for Itachi>Orochimaru).

So please feel free to go argue with yourself, because apparently you're really good at it.

PS: I don't mean to drag anyone else into this (pointless) debate by quoting you, I was merely borrowing your words to prove a point.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Vindi89

Yes, Orochimaru, ET 1st and ET 2nd Hokage didn't beat the 3rd Hokage. He definitely couldn't beat Itachi with what was displayed in that fight. Later Harashima was reconned to be an uber ninja second only to Rikkudo Sennin at this point in the manga. I was never ignoring or disregarding the recon. It has been the point of my discussion from the beginning. Its your fanboy mind that's still stuck in this being an Orochimaru vs Itachi fight (which I've stated 2 times prior and finally a third time: I'm sure the author meant for Itachi>Orochimaru).

you are making my point for me and dont even realize it and continue to make fun of me even though you should be laughing at your own denseness...

i've argued with other people on this forum about the ET retcon before. some people like you choose to live in the world before the time skip whereas I choose to take in the entire series as a whole. given what we know about hashirama now the story only makes sense by acknowledging orochimaru's ET was dumbed down (for whatever reason or combination of reasons you want to use). you can't just assume orochimaru could have done things differently. why not just assume that he had madara's dna and could have just used him to annihilate konoha or beat itachi? ~because its dumb and has no evidence backing it which was common for all your assumptions.

you claim you've only had one point, but it's been many many silly and simply wrong points and assumptions during this discussion. you're plethora of quotes was dumb and fruitless and your argument is tired and old now

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

you choose to live in the world before the time skip whereas I choose to take in the entire series as a whole.

If I was living in a world before the time skip I wouldn't even acknowledge the RECON now would I? I've chosen to acknowledge it, you choosed to explain it away.

given what we know about hashirama now the story only makes sense by acknowledging orochimaru's ET was dumbed down

Again your mind trying to make sense of the plot hole that you refuse to acknowledge.

you can't just assume orochimaru could have done things differently. why not just assume that he had madara's dna and could have just used him to annihilate konoha or beat itachi? ~because its dumb and has no evidence backing it

About as much sense as you claiming his ET was dumbed down (the biggest assumption based on nothing than your lack of acknowledging a plot hole). Everything I've claimed has been based on logical thinking and backed up by real examples in the manga (eg. power scaling over the course of the manga.)

you claim you've only had one point, but it's been many many silly and simply wrong points and assumptions during this discussion.

I made one statemenat, one about how it makes NO SENSE that Orochimaru didn't use EDO 1st to defeat Itachi and you turned this into an Oro vs Itachi debate. I humored you and gave you a very plausible senario in which Orochimaru could defeat Itachi based on the FACT that you can close your eyes to avoid sight based Genjutsu.

So, in the end, agree to disagree . Good day sir.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Vindi89

Again your mind trying to make sense of the plot hole that you refuse to acknowledge.

the power disparity between ET hashirama and madara's explanation of his powers is simply not a plot hole. even back in the time of orochimaru's ET vs sarutobi we knew that he was controlling him like a puppet of sorts. it stands to reason that orochimaru couldn't have known all hashirama's secret techniques

About as much sense as you claiming his ET was dumbed down (the biggest assumption based on nothing than your lack of acknowledging a plot hole).

no. it was clearly dumbed down. i'm basing this fact on madara's own words in the manga. again this is an example of how i choose to acknowledge the series on a whole and not get stuck pre-timeskip

Everything I've claimed has been based on logical thinking and backed up by real examples in the manga (eg. power scaling over the course of the manga.)

not even close but whatever...

I made one statemenat, one about how it makes NO SENSE that Orochimaru didn't use EDO 1st to defeat Itachi and you turned this into an Oro vs Itachi debate. I humored you and gave you a very plausible senario in which Orochimaru could defeat Itachi based on the FACT that you can close your eyes to avoid sight based Genjutsu.

you made a lot more than 1, but even this one is wrong. you are assuming that orochimaru could defeat itachi by closing his eyes... that is based on nothing and isn't even close to something that could have happened. if orochimaru could have defeated itachi by closing his eyes guess what? he would have done it before the story even began. i know this discussion has overstayed its welcome, but that's just a ludicrous assumption

[Vindi89]

itachi-san314

I've already answered every single one of your counter-points. We're at the point that I could just link everything you've said back to a previous post because you've addressed nothing, came up with no new information and finally backed none of your claims up. You say things like "Kabuto explained to Deidra" or "Madara's own words". I took the time to look up your Kabuto claim and it said nothing of the sort. Guess what you completely ignored it when I called you out on it.

This has turned into a yes it is, no it isn't debate because you refuse to actually argue my points. I dedicated an entire post to showing you the circles you've been going in by arguing against yourself! Still that wasn't enough for you. You continue to claim everything I say is an assumption regardless of the fact that I broke it down for you, had you ACCEPT it and then in a later post regress. Its pretty sad. I'll be more than happy to debate with you again on a topic that doesn't involve Itachi because you are blatantly biased.

[itachi-san314]

^you're pretty delusional buddy... I don't know how you come up with this stuff...

anywho.. kabuto absolutely tells deidara that his talisman is different from the one orochimaru used in ch513 p2

and hashirama's true strength in madara's own words is in ch. 576 starting on p13

you done now?

[james0246]

Okay, this exchange is getting a little too melodramatic. Please stop with the childishness and move on. Thank you.