[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

And sorry for the long post and for anyone who cringed throughout the whole post. I will admit that I wasn't eloquent enough and I might've missed some points here and there, but this is the best I have got at the moment.

The biggest problem with a Rosatrice theory like that lies not even in the details, but in the overall fact that it would ask us to ignore large chunks of plot AND character development as not distractions but flat-out lies.
Sayotrice is - while being slightly too complicated and obscure due to Ryukishi's usually weird editing - not so much about us being lied to, but about obscuring and leaving out elements for us to guess. The Rosatrice-theory you describe reduces the following elements to simple lies:

1) Rosa's financial background and current emotional state
It is revealed over the course of EP1-4 that Rosa's emotional abuse stems from both her inferiority complex towards her siblings, as well as her feeling cornered as a working single-mother.
EP6 goes further and adds that her financial stress comes not so much from her failing managment skills of her company (though that seems to run in the family, due to Kinzo's bad parenting), but due to the fact that she took on a huge loan for Maria's father, who then ditched her and left her with the debt on her name.
With her becoming the head, all these elements of stress would be removed from Rosa.

2) Her discussion with Eva in EP3
If she actually revealed herself to Eva as Beatrice, then why would there be any need for her to ask Eva for money?

3) Her violent and desperate outbursts at Maria for mentioning Beatrice or magic
If she is the one endorsing her daughters fantasy, why would she at the same time try so violently to make her supress it? The only solution for that would be a completely split personality, which would make any planning for this crime to happen on Rosa's part pretty much impossible.

And as always, Nanjo's death in EP3 remains unsolvable with this. While with someoneelse-trice you could argue that they faked their death and dropped their "personality", everybody saw Rosa's dead body in this one. Will even declares that there are no lies involved in this scene.

[Inbuiltx9]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Not really. In Ep 2 Kanon is resurrected twice and in Ep 3 Shannon is resurrected and Kanon is partially resurrected. Beatrice's personality is also resurrected in Ep 6 when she recovers her memories.

Then we've the resurrection for the furnitures, like Sakutarou and the seven sisters or for Lambda herself.

And then we've the resurrections in memory as Ange resurrects her whole family... and in a way we can speculate Ange managed to resurrect Battler too when she carried Tohya to the orphanage and he somehow awaken as Battler.

Hmmm, I dont think so. In Ep 2 its pretty clear that it is never "Kanon" who is resurrected - its Sayo playing Kanons part if anything, but it's stated several times that this person "was something different, even though it looked like Kanon". But the scenes with Kanon after Kanons death are just fantasy after all. In the "real world" of the game - the personality Kanon died after shooting Jessica. In Ep 3 it also isnt "Shannon" that is resurrected, but Sayo. This approach with the different personalities is also made clear in "Our Confession". - Not once was a personality resurrected after dying in a non-fiction-world.
So yes, resurrection of Sakutarou etc. is possible, because they are fictional characters. In the meta its possible to resurrect people anyways - thats what Beato does all the time, she also killed Battlers several times in Episode 3. Anges resurrection ability refers to the fact that in real life, she can talk to her family/feel that they are by her side. But there was NEVER an occasion, when a personality died in a "real world" (the layer under the fantasy) and was resurrected afterwards. That is just not possible. Death means permanent death, unless we get to the realm of fantasy or into the meta-world.
But even if you "somehow" allow resurrection of personalities in the case of Sayo, that still doesnt apply to others- Sayo's special circumstances are what makes the story of Umineko. But then even "if" you allow that for other characters as well (which would make solving the game boards impossible btw), it still doesnt apply to Ange in 1998.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

It's one of the many interpretative red truth.
You can think it applies to the suicidal Ange, who 'dies' when Ange choses to live.
The Ange that decides to live and become Yukari is, in a way, a different person from the Ange who wanted to find the truth, pin the blame on Eva and die.

Another possibility is that Ange disappeared and was declared dead after no one found info about her.

In this case technically Ange is officially dead... even if she's alive.

No, like I said, you cant interpret it that way, because Ange herself says immediately after she changed name - she will always stay Ushiromiya Ange.
Heres what I mean: There is ALWAYS a possibility to interpret something in a different way, if you just put enough force into it But every theory that actually fits the hints that are given and doesnt need to add re-interpretations must always be superior to others. There is just not one single hint that tells us Anges personality died in the magic ending. Its not completely impossible to say Ange died "somehow", but its very forced and has no basis at all. exactly because she herself says she always remained Ange. After her (in reality impossible)"going back in time" to get back onto the building to undo her decision to jump - she also still settled her business as Ushiromiya Ange. She accepted everything about her - her past and her future - and remained "Ushiromiya Ange" that wrote books. She somehow got a second chance - but thats the possibility every witch called "Beatrice" can give- to live for an infinite time in a finite time span. Thats why she is Ange and Ange Beatrice then. In reality she died.
Really, from the very beginning in Ep 3, its made clear that the Ange from that world commited suicide by jumping. Everything after that is just a fantasy/occuring in the moment Ange is about to die.

And she cant be officially declared dead because you only get declared dead after 7 years, but the red states she died in 1998. Really, the magic ending is a magic ending, no matter how you look at it

Originally Posted by jjblue1

In a way you can even force the red truth of Eva died on Eva even if she remained alive. Eva is dead inside. The only people she loved, Hideyoshi and George, died on the island and she was the one who 'sparked the fire that killed them'. She killed her brother and his wife in revenge. She killed Natsuhi by accident.
She was told it was just coincidence she didn't kill everyone.

It's acceptable even in real life to say 'the person I was before is dead, now I'm a new person'. Eva returned from Rokkenjima as a new person, even if she retained her memory and her body.

Again, that is "somehow" possible...still nothing hints at that but there are many arguments against it.
Every info we get is that Eva after the incident was not the way she ended up in 1998. Ange had the chance to build a family with her and Eva was also willing to take care of her. She protected Ange from the very beginning - in what way can you call Eva "dead" in 1986? You "somehow" can, but if you start to say that every change you have in your way of thinking and every bad or good experience you have can be called "death", than arguments are no longer possible.
After all, Eva should have "died" in the third game after Hideyoshi and George are killed, Jessica and Battler too have "died" several times...With this after what Battler went through he could even be alive in 1998 without the need of memory loss. After all he changed so much that he "died" in 1986 and can now live a new life and Ange wouldnt have had to wonder about Berns truth that he died and was still alive in the first place...I can even go as far as to say everyone survived - after all, its made clear in the episodes that even if Jessicas head was smashed in you cant be 100% sure she is dead. And when it was shown what happened in Prime not once was it stated that anyone was definitely dead, at least Maria and Genji etc. can be alive without any bigger problems...And since everyone went practically through hell, they all "died" on that day. Im kidding of course, but this is where this leads to by defining death as something trivial like a change of heart...this concept was never established in umineko and even worse - it would completely throw every concept the episodes DID establish out of the window. thats like saying Rosatrice is the culprit XD (sorry, to all the Rosatrice-fans)

Another hint that you CANT interpret it that way was the magic ending - where Ange admits that the way "Battler" is now can really be considered as not violating the red truth. Meaning: you CAN get around the death-sentence-red truth to "survive", but its not that easy.
Really, I dont want to say you cant form this interpretation at all (like Rosatrice), it just goes against everything the story tells us. Saying Ange survived is like Ericas frail truth at the end of Episode 5 Possible, but there is something desperate about it...

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Let's start with Ep 6. It's not that the game never ended, it's just that it was suspended and we were never shown the conclusion. During the Teaparty we see that everyone has reached the golden land. Ergo at the end of the game they all died.

In an interview about Ep 5 Ryukishi said:
...

This means that even if Ep 5 was also suspended and we never saw it reach its end technically it had an end. It's like reading a book and finding the culprit during the middle of the story so you don't continue it. The book goes on but you'll never see it.

No, its pretty clear Battler never intended for anyone to die in Dawn - its a present written for the original Beato that died after all. Beato even says~ "I understand now, this is just a story of a prank". In the manga, the results of this game show that Battler "died" - he didnt in the real world of the game - so the results are written as golden truth. Noone would have died in red so to speak, it was just a prank - and that was Battlers present to Beato, a world where noone died and where what she announced to be a prank to others really just turned out to be a prank. I thought the VN made that pretty clear. And the thing is, while the deaths of Ep 6 are written in gold, the truth "when the seagulls cry noone is left alive" at the end of Ep 6 is written in red, meaning Battlers golden truth-death in his game is not the same as the red-truth-death.

Two weaker arguments: Of course I can imagine how ep 6 ends, and I cant see Erika dying no matter what (if you count her). And just from a story-telling POV, the red truth is given after the credits of the ???ending - which would be a really strange time to announce the deaths of the persons in a game that doesnt really matter anymore and for which we already have the results...Or formulated in a different way: Why would it even be of any interest to know that everyone died at the end of the 6th game? Id understand if that was written in gold-because that would refer to Battlers truth and what he had in mind with the plot of Dawn. But in red? It would just tell us that in the end Erika killed everyone...So what? Thats boring and completely irrelevant. And this completely random info is given such a pronounced spot at the very end of Ep 6 after the credits of the ???-part roll?

Oh and it doesnt really show they reached the golden land - everyone is just in the meta-world, which is not the same as the golden land ("heaven"). they are in the same world then as they are in the 8th game - not dead as in "dead on the game board". After all, in the golden land of the game board there is no happiness...
Well, I have my own thoughts about the whole "strings attached"-quotes, that is Battler and Beato released their souls from being tied to the game board at the end of ep 6, but that is really vague and doesnt really matter here...

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Now, back to Ep 4. Ep 4 gives us a Death count which refers to the gameboard but that includes also Ange, given as death in 1998. It's not Meta Ange, unless the meta is taking place in 1998 instead than in a timeless place, it's the Ange we saw going on Rokkenjima and that was killed by Amakusa as hinted in Ep 7.

The manga shows her journey with Amakusa definitely never happened and was just fiction. Ange did indeed die in 1998, but by jumping from the bulding. Even Ange and other characters say she could not have survived that fall (she says the net would not have worked). Thats why I was sure she was dead from the very beginning even before the red truth confirmed it.

Back to Ep 6. It has been speculated that Battler knew what Erika was after and that purposely let her set up the logic error so as to push Beatrice to remember everything. In fact as Battler is the gamemaster he should know he could use Kanon that way and he immediately figured out the trick Beato presented to Erika.

So Battler allowed Erika to kill everyone, knowing the game would end in people being murdered.

Nononono XD That really is pure speculation.

1.Battler is always characterized as a peace-loving-idiot. Not once did he ever kill anyone nor did he want to suspect anyone and he even saved Natsuhi at the end of ep 5 by taking the blame even though he wasnt the culprit.
He wrote Dawn as a story to show he understood Beatos heart and to give her a present by showing her a game/world in which noone died. The prank-story was the original plot of Dawn as Beato herself states. Now, what is hinting at the fact that he let Erika kill five of his family members to just make Beato remember her previous self, even when Beato herself was happy the way she was? That would make Battler selfish and pretty cruel - something that completely goes against his character. And he wrote Dawn even before he knew how Beato didnt have her memories. Of course, he didnt plan every move Erika would take then, but it means he would have thrown all his ideas and goals for his original story away just to make Beato remember, to throw away a story he wrote for the dead Beato to make up for his "sin". Ive gotta say, that would be a pretty disgusting move.

2.When Kanon saved him from the closed room he says Battler endured for years to "protect the story", not that he waited for Beato to become her former self. And the story was not about Beatos memories, since Dawn was finished before Battler even knew about the memory loss. Over and over again its made clear that Battler wanted the story to go on and finish it - for Beatos sake. It was not a story that was supposed to end in the middle with Beato getting her memories back, but a story that would lead to a happy ending. And he didnt want to let the story end in the closed room (which it did, thanks to Erika). Of course Battler knew how he could use Kanon and Shannon but he also considered it a bad trick, but more importantly - its never mentioned he was aware that they tricked him with the windows. Oh and in the VN when Beato tells him she will help him escape from the closed room, he asks "how?", that is he doesnt know about the trick before kanon switches places with him.

3.
And last but not least - the most important argument - Battler tried to get out of the room by himself, in the VN and in the manga that is made 100% clear. If he planned everything, he would not have had to tear his fingernails off to get out of there, he would have just had to sit back and wait...

Originally Posted by jjblue1

The whole character of Ange is built around the fact that she was raised by Eva whom she believed being the culprit. If you claim Eva died and Ange was raised by... let's say the Sumadera, Ange could be completely different. We can't say if better or worse because that would be up to speculation.

No no, thats not what I meant. Sorry, I didnt make that clear. The Ange we meet all the time is of course raised by Eva. And Eva made it back alive. Im just saying this is all a fragment-world like it was presented in the third episode. The whole diary-affair DID happen more or less -in Anges fragment world. But that doesnt really relate to "Prime". Imo the 8th episode is a really really big fat lie XD

No, it's actually not clearly stated in fact people speculated a lot about what was and what wasn't in the message bottles.

At least its clearly stated that the end of the second Episode after Battler surrendered was never told in the message bottle, "there was no need". At least that part of meta-world was "added" somehow, and that of course influences all the parts of the meta-world.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

The fact that Bern is partially inspired to a cat might be purely coincidental. For Beatrice that cat might have been the one who "broke the vase" in her place when she was young. And then the fantasy side developed this and it had that cat magically become Ikuko's cat.

Hehe, yes, I 100% agree with your last sentence Well, I understand how the fantasy side represents many different entities from reality. And thats exactly my point. In Ep 8 it was presented as if Bern was added to the story just! because Touya met this cat that was Ikukos pet ("are you a ghost cat?" etc.). The relation between Bern and Ikuko! (not just Featherine) is also shown. I dont agree, but it was PRESENTED as if there would have never been a Bern if Touya didnt meet Ikuko. And like you said - that cant be the case. Bern is an existence that doesnt JUST relate to Ikukos cat. She appears in Ep 1-a story they said did have no relation with Touya/Ikuko and she also comes from Higurashi etc. So yes, the fantasy side developed her and she became Ikuko's cat - and since Im of the opinion that Touya/Ikuko is just a fragment world, that fits, since it is somewhat fantasy itself. But more importantly: The way Touya/Ikuko are presented to influence the story is definitely wrong! I wont interpret too much into her, exactly because I think the Touya/Ikuko-wrote-a-book-layer is not encompassing everything and the ultimate interpretation.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Many thought Ikuko was really odd. She's simply introduced too late and ends up doing things that are never clearly explained so look way too odd.
Many tried to explain it with her being Sayo. It was speculated also that she could be Umineko's version of Annie Wilkes (from "Misery"). ^_-
Ultimately I fear with the info at hands trying to speculate on Ikuko leads us to nowhere that's why our best option is to wait for the manga to clear it up... if Ryukishi will feel like it.
So far he didn't add much to her but at least he informed us of how she and Tohya got so many info about Sayo, thanks to the bottle they found containing a confession.

I wouldnt say she is Sayo - there are no hints for that. But she is really really REALLY weird!!! It already starts with her wanting the doctor to keep silent about the accident and goes on to her fixation on the Rokkenjima-accident.
Well, since the magic ending where Ange and Touya meet is obviously her compensating for Ange taking part in her story and is written by her (that why her appearance didnt change), I even had the thought that Ikuko really IS some kind of "god" of the Umineko-world, I was thinking that maybe she really wrote the whole story- everything from start to finish -but without Touya and that she just added him later so that she's able to give Ange a happy end. Well now, this IS speculation from my part, since it is just based on the fact that Ikuko hasnt aged one bit when she met Ange at the very end and on the really strange meeting between her and Touya ("is this your garden?" etc.) And its also waaay too suspicious how she found the bottle - that Battler had with him probably (I take that from the lyrics of Kiri no Pithos). But Im really at a loss here...I wont accept a the point after the Umineko-sentence if it doesnt explain anything more about Ikuko XD

[Inbuiltx9]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Let's start with Ep 6. It's not that the game never ended, it's just that it was suspended and we were never shown the conclusion. During the Teaparty we see that everyone has reached the golden land. Ergo at the end of the game they all died.

In an interview about Ep 5 Ryukishi said:



This means that even if Ep 5 was also suspended and we never saw it reach its end technically it had an end. It's like reading a book and finding the culprit during the middle of the story so you don't continue it. The book goes on but you'll never see it.

Now, back to Ep 4. Ep 4 gives us a Death count which refers to the gameboard but that includes also Ange, given as death in 1998. It's not Meta Ange, unless the meta is taking place in 1998 instead than in a timeless place, it's the Ange we saw going on Rokkenjima and that was killed by Amakusa as hinted in Ep 7.

Effectively, at the end of that episode, none, not even Ange, was left alive.

Back to Ep 6. It has been speculated that Battler knew what Erika was after and that purposely let her set up the logic error so as to push Beatrice to remember everything. In fact as Battler is the gamemaster he should know he could use Kanon that way and he immediately figured out the trick Beato presented to Erika.

So Battler allowed Erika to kill everyone, knowing the game would end in people being murdered.

I forgot to mention, the red truth at the end of Episode 6 "when the seagulls cry, noone is left alive", DEFINITELY CANT refer to the 6th game also because of the following reason:

The time stops when the game is abandoned. Erikas piece doesnt leave the room for all eternity (she says it herself) and Kanon will remain in the closet for all eternity - he says it himself - the time of the game board wont be advanced. That means there is no way Erika will ever get to murder everyone else. time has stopped, all there is is a "what-if"-situation, that can never be determined with the red! -truth.

that is differerent from the 5th game, because the 5th game did reach its end - even though there would have been a different solution if Erika hadnt intervened. But the 6th game never ended and like I said - Erika will never move out of the room. the 6th game situation is the same as the 5th game situation only insofar as there could never be a red truth that says, for example, Eva is dead at the end of the 5th game.

with all this, the red truth obviously doesnt refer to the game board.

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

Hmmm, I dont think so. In Ep 2 its pretty clear that it is never "Kanon" who is resurrected - its Sayo playing Kanons part if anything, but it's stated several times that this person "was something different, even though it looked like Kanon". But the scenes with Kanon after Kanons death are just fantasy after all. In the "real world" of the game - the personality Kanon died after shooting Jessica. In Ep 3 it also isnt "Shannon" that is resurrected, but Sayo. This approach with the different personalities is also made clear in "Our Confession". - Not once was a personality resurrected after dying in a non-fiction-world.

What's the difference between 'Kanon' and 'Sayo acting as Kanon'? They're the same being. Yasu didn't actually have dissociative identities.

No, like I said, you cant interpret it that way, because Ange herself says immediately after she changed name - she will always stay Ushiromiya Ange.
Heres what I mean: There is ALWAYS a possibility to interpret something in a different way, if you just put enough force into it But every theory that actually fits the hints that are given and doesnt need to add re-interpretations must always be superior to others. There is just not one single hint that tells us Anges personality died in the magic ending. Its not completely impossible to say Ange died "somehow", but its very forced and has no basis at all. exactly because she herself says she always remained Ange. After her (in reality impossible)"going back in time" to get back onto the building to undo her decision to jump - she also still settled her business as Ushiromiya Ange. She accepted everything about her - her past and her future - and remained "Ushiromiya Ange" that wrote books. She somehow got a second chance - but thats the possibility every witch called "Beatrice" can give- to live for an infinite time in a finite time span. Thats why she is Ange and Ange Beatrice then. In reality she died.
Really, from the very beginning in Ep 3, its made clear that the Ange from that world commited suicide by jumping. Everything after that is just a fantasy/occuring in the moment Ange is about to die.

And she cant be officially declared dead because you only get declared dead after 7 years, but the red states she died in 1998. Really, the magic ending is a magic ending, no matter how you look at it

You only get declared dead after 7 years if it's a missing person's case. Considering Ange had a lot of money and connections to the mob, she can probably get herself declared dead immediately.

And 'Ushiromiya Ange' was declared dead; she's living under a pseudonym and she was amazed and frightened when Ikuko recognized her as Ange.

No, its pretty clear Battler never intended for anyone to die in Dawn - its a present written for the original Beato that died after all. Beato even says~ "I understand now, this is just a story of a prank". In the manga, the results of this game show that Battler "died" - he didnt in the real world of the game - so the results are written as golden truth. Noone would have died in red so to speak, it was just a prank - and that was Battlers present to Beato, a world where noone died and where what she announced to be a prank to others really just turned out to be a prank. I thought the VN made that pretty clear. And the thing is, while the deaths of Ep 6 are written in gold, the truth "when the seagulls cry noone is left alive" at the end of Ep 6 is written in red, meaning Battlers golden truth-death in his game is not the same as the red-truth-death.

Uh...EP6 and the story Battler laid in Beato's coffin as a gift are different stories. He explicitly said no one was going to be allowed to read the latter, ever.

Nononono XD That really is pure speculation.

1.Battler is always characterized as a peace-loving-idiot. Not once did he ever kill anyone nor did he want to suspect anyone and he even saved Natsuhi at the end of ep 5 by taking the blame even though he wasnt the culprit.
He wrote Dawn as a story to show he understood Beatos heart and to give her a present by showing her a game/world in which noone died. The prank-story was the original plot of Dawn as Beato herself states. Now, what is hinting at the fact that he let Erika kill five of his family members to just make Beato remember her previous self, even when Beato herself was happy the way she was? That would make Battler selfish and pretty cruel - something that completely goes against his character. And he wrote Dawn even before he knew how Beato didnt have her memories. Of course, he didnt plan every move Erika would take then, but it means he would have thrown all his ideas and goals for his original story away just to make Beato remember, to throw away a story he wrote for the dead Beato to make up for his "sin". Ive gotta say, that would be a pretty disgusting move.

2.When Kanon saved him from the closed room he says Battler endured for years to "protect the story", not that he waited for Beato to become her former self. And the story was not about Beatos memories, since Dawn was finished before Battler even knew about the memory loss. Over and over again its made clear that Battler wanted the story to go on and finish it - for Beatos sake. It was not a story that was supposed to end in the middle with Beato getting her memories back, but a story that would lead to a happy ending. And he didnt want to let the story end in the closed room (which it did, thanks to Erika). Of course Battler knew how he could use Kanon and Shannon but he also considered it a bad trick, but more importantly - its never mentioned he was aware that they tricked him with the windows. Oh and in the VN when Beato tells him she will help him escape from the closed room, he asks "how?", that is he doesnt know about the trick before kanon switches places with him.

3.
And last but not least - the most important argument - Battler tried to get out of the room by himself, in the VN and in the manga that is made 100% clear. If he planned everything, he would not have had to tear his fingernails off to get out of there, he would have just had to sit back and wait...

EP8 heavily implies he planned absolutely everything in EP6. Given that he 'exists on a higher plane' compared to the other characters as Territory Lord...

I forgot to mention, the red truth at the end of Episode 6 "when the seagulls cry, noone is left alive", DEFINITELY CANT refer to the 6th game also because of the following reason:

The time stops when the game is abandoned. Erikas piece doesnt leave the room for all eternity (she says it herself) and Kanon will remain in the closet for all eternity - he says it himself - the time of the game board wont be advanced. That means there is no way Erika will ever get to murder everyone else. time has stopped, all there is is a "what-if"-situation, that can never be determined with the red! -truth.

that is differerent from the 5th game, because the 5th game did reach its end - even though there would have been a different solution if Erika hadnt intervened. But the 6th game never ended and like I said - Erika will never move out of the room. the 6th game situation is the same as the 5th game situation only insofar as there could never be a red truth that says, for example, Eva is dead at the end of the 5th game.

with all this, the red truth obviously doesnt refer to the game board.

Uh...you realize there's a BOMB, right?

[Leslie Chow]

It is revealed over the course of EP1-4 that Rosa's emotional abuse stems from both her inferiority complex towards her siblings, as well as her feeling cornered as a working single-mother.
EP6 goes further and adds that her financial stress comes not so much from her failing managment skills of her company (though that seems to run in the family, due to Kinzo's bad parenting), but due to the fact that she took on a huge loan for Maria's father, who then ditched her and left her with the debt on her name.
With her becoming the head, all these elements of stress would be removed from Rosa.

But isn't it because she hates her siblings that she would also want to kill them? But isn't it because that she feels cornered as a single mother is because she feels betrayed by Maria's father (this could account for Beatrice's view on love on EP2 when killing George and Shannon)? If we also take Yasu as a hint, couldn't we say that this part of Rosa doesn't care about living anymore? Like as stated in EP8 Chapter 25 that Yasu (or Rosa if looking at Rosatrice perspective) that she kept on running away from reality (or indulging in "magic" and not taking care of her responsibilities) that had she searched for an option she was unable to see, then she might've gotten a different outcome? Couldn't we say that because the Beatrice persona was what made her a better mother that she wished she was Beatrice (and I quote "If I had lived in this body... I might've experienced untold happiness..."), rather than as Maria calls it the "black witch"?

If she actually revealed herself to Eva as Beatrice, then why would there be any need for her to ask Eva for money?

Because she has to play by the rules and because Eva became head, she has no choice but to give everything to Eva. Her asking Eva for the money is just the date when she needs it. I don't think Eva is slack enough to say "too bad it's mine now and it's your loss for giving us this challenge"! I mean if we look at how Eva cared for Ange, shouldn't we say that after Rosa revealed everything to Eva that Eva realized how irresponsible Rosa was that it could greatly affect Maria as well? Since Rosa is a mother, and Eva is a mother, Eva actually knows how mothers should treat their children (which is why she didn't like Kyrie's point of view that Ange was just a tool). Yes, Eva hates her siblings, but I don't think she hates their children as well, esp. the young ones, namely Maria and Ange.

If she is the one endorsing her daughters fantasy, why would she at the same time try so violently to make her supress it? The only solution for that would be a completely split personality, which would make any planning for this crime to happen on Rosa's part pretty much impossible.

She wants to suppress it because she doesn't want anyone to know that she is also into black magic or that she is Beatrice. She does so violently because Maria is annoying and a bit stubborn (I mean, look at the rose that was marked and how she wanted to find it so badly). If I remember correctly, in EP2, Rosa did say that she wanted to look good in front of others, so of course it is only logical to say that she doesn't want people looking at her with stares or gossip about her. It is also interesting to note that in EP2, while Maria was talking to Battler about Halloween that Rosa stopped her before she said anything more about Beatrice? Also, in the Sayotrice perspective, Maria did claim that Beatrice is how she acts not how she looks? I remember in a manga panel that Sayo wasn't in costume while doing that cheap candy trick. Shouldn't we apply the same concept to Rosatrice as well? And also looking at Sayotrice perspective, wouldn't Maria have gotten the idea of switching personas from Sayo? And yet, this doesn't stop Sayo from planning and carrying out the crimes but it does to Rosa? No double standards please.

And as always, Nanjo's death in EP3 remains unsolvable with this. While with someoneelse-trice you could argue that they faked their death and dropped their "personality", everybody saw Rosa's dead body in this one. Will even declares that there are no lies involved in this scene.

Since in EP3 the epitaph is solved, Beatrice no longer has to carry out her ritual. So why do the murders still happen? This leads to the conclusion that there is a co-plotter that doesn't care about the rules and is willing to still carry out the murders. However, Eva-Beatrice doesn't seem to care about the rules, so shouldn't fantasy scenes of her doing the murders suggest that she represents co-plotter?

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

Hmmm, I dont think so. In Ep 2 its pretty clear that it is never "Kanon" who is resurrected - its Sayo playing Kanons part if anything, but it's stated several times that this person "was something different, even though it looked like Kanon". But the scenes with Kanon after Kanons death are just fantasy after all. In the "real world" of the game - the personality Kanon died after shooting Jessica.

Yes, in this case it's more like Sayo playing Kanon's role. But the whole thing has the purpose to get you thinking about how and why Kanon was resurrected and other characters won't be (Genji for example will never be resurrected).
And it's interesting to compare Kanon's resurrection in Ep 2 with his resurrection in Ep 3, where only his voice was 'resurrected' if we can say so.

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

In Ep 3 it also isnt "Shannon" that is resurrected, but Sayo. This approach with the different personalities is also made clear in "Our Confession". - Not once was a personality resurrected after dying in a non-fiction-world.

Nope, in Ep 3 it's Shannon who's resurrected. At least in the magic scene showed to us. The one resurrected is the girl who loved George. In truth Ep 7 manga version shows that when George entered in the room Sayo was there waiting for him to kill him off (possibly after questioning him like she did in Ep 2...).

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

So yes, resurrection of Sakutarou etc. is possible, because they are fictional characters. In the meta its possible to resurrect people anyways - thats what Beato does all the time, she also killed Battlers several times in Episode 3. Anges resurrection ability refers to the fact that in real life, she can talk to her family/feel that they are by her side. But there was NEVER an occasion, when a personality died in a "real world" (the layer under the fantasy) and was resurrected afterwards. That is just not possible. Death means permanent death, unless we get to the realm of fantasy or into the meta-world.
But even if you "somehow" allow resurrection of personalities in the case of Sayo, that still doesnt apply to others- Sayo's special circumstances are what makes the story of Umineko. But then even "if" you allow that for other characters as well (which would make solving the game boards impossible btw), it still doesnt apply to Ange in 1998.

It applies because Ange's suicidal personality died and she became a person capable of looking toward the future. Her personality becomes different.
In some countries to say that "the person you were before died" is a common way to say to imply you changed.
Red is not so clear cut nor it has to refer to the most obvious meaning. That's why Battler and Erika start checking definitions.

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

No, like I said, you cant interpret it that way, because Ange herself says immediately after she changed name - she will always stay Ushiromiya Ange. Heres what I mean: There is ALWAYS a possibility to interpret something in a different way, if you just put enough force into it But every theory that actually fits the hints that are given and doesnt need to add re-interpretations must always be superior to others. There is just not one single hint that tells us Anges personality died in the magic ending. Its not completely impossible to say Ange died "somehow", but its very forced and has no basis at all. exactly because she herself says she always remained Ange. After her (in reality impossible)"going back in time" to get back onto the building to undo her decision to jump - she also still settled her business as Ushiromiya Ange. She accepted everything about her - her past and her future - and remained "Ushiromiya Ange" that wrote books. She somehow got a second chance - but thats the possibility every witch called "Beatrice" can give- to live for an infinite time in a finite time span. Thats why she is Ange and Ange Beatrice then. In reality she died.
Really, from the very beginning in Ep 3, its made clear that the Ange from that world commited suicide by jumping. Everything after that is just a fantasy/occuring in the moment Ange is about to die.

Nope. The scene in which Ange jumps is after she saw Bernkastel and therefore it's a clear fantasy scene. The true ending as far as Ryukishi is involved is the magic ending. Ange considered jumping but didn't do it. Everything from Ange's jump in Ep 3, her travel in Ep 4, her meeting with Hachijo Tohya in Ep 6, her killing Amakusa on the boat in Ep 8 was fantasy and rather filled with fantasy elements that lead her to a determinate fantasy, to end her own life after she had accomplished some sort of goal.
When she leaves she didn't say that she'll always remain Ushiromiya Ange but that she hadn't given up on being Ange. She'll be Ange-Beatrice, which only means that through her stories she'll spread magic and keep alive the people she loved in her heart.
Previously Ange even said that Ushiromiya Ange died but that she'll keep on living. More than a hint on her really dying is likely a hint of how she managed to disappear, by spreading the rumour she died.

Of course you can offer a different interpretation that for you, seems more fitting. It's the same thing the Rosatrice fans are doing but you've the advantage that the Ange surviving theory is less strongly supported than the Sayotrice theory because the manga hadn't touched it yet and we only have Ryukishi's words that the magic ending is the true ending.

And if you ask me my favourite interpretation is that actually Ange disappeared with Tohya not knowing if she was alive or dead and that Ange's future was merely written by Tohya as he hoped his sister had finally found peace and that he could meet her again. But well, this interpretation ends up taking away the meaning of the last scene so it's likely not the right one.

Interpretations must also fit with the themes of the story. If Ange had died her whole story would be useless fantasy as it would lead to nowhere. Battler could have never saved her because she was already dead and no message could reach her.
The manga put emphasis on the parallel between Beato and Ange and how learning from Beato's story and from her mistakes will allow Ange to save herself.

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

Again, that is "somehow" possible...still nothing hints at that but there are many arguments against it.

I was making an example, we know that Eva survived Ep 3.
Red truth is a matter of interpretation. That's why sometimes red truth creates the impression that there's magic at work. Like how Beato can say she will kill Battler even if Battler is alone on the island.

Eva is not protecting Ange merely out of the godness of her heart. She admitted she did it to protect herself. She was miserable and hateful. She even grew paranoid and insane. This wasn't the person she was prior to the Rokkenjima incident.

I can interpret her change like the death of the Eva she was previously. But that's sort of irrelevant. Eva didn't die, each record referring to her as dead referred to piece Eva in a certain game or to the Eva of 1998.

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

Really, I dont want to say you cant form this interpretation at all (like Rosatrice), it just goes against everything the story tells us. Saying Ange survived is like Ericas frail truth at the end of Episode 5 Possible, but there is something desperate about it...

Yet Ryukishi declared the magic ending is the true ending.

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

No, its pretty clear Battler never intended for anyone to die in Dawn - its a present written for the original Beato that died after all. Beato even says~ "I understand now, this is just a story of a prank". In the manga, the results of this game show that Battler "died" - he didnt in the real world of the game - so the results are written as golden truth. Noone would have died in red so to speak, it was just a prank - and that was Battlers present to Beato, a world where noone died and where what she announced to be a prank to others really just turned out to be a prank. I thought the VN made that pretty clear. And the thing is, while the deaths of Ep 6 are written in gold, the truth "when the seagulls cry noone is left alive" at the end of Ep 6 is written in red, meaning Battlers golden truth-death in his game is not the same as the red-truth-death.

Are you referring to the gold used in the manga?
That's just how the typer decided to write it. In the original Japanese version the death are written in black and in the Visual Novel they're written in white.
There's no gold there.
The only gold spoken in Ep 6 is in reference to the candy magic.
And Ep 8 explained that Ep 6 was a perfect world for Beato because nor witches nor one of the relatives was at fault (Erika is not a witch in the game and she's not a relative) and because in the magic ending none of her three personalities suffered failure.
Yes, for the victims of the first twilight it was supposed to be all a prank. The same trick was used in Ep 5 when the cousins took part to the first twilight believing it was a prank... and even in Ep 4 when Jessica phoned to Battler claiming she'd been killed believing she was a prank.
But it's a mystery, not the tale of a prank, just a mystery in which a prank went wrong. Beato doesn't know which are Battler's plans and he hinted to her he has another goal.

Also if you compare the other results of the other games you'll find out they match how the twilights are declared, not really the death order.
In Ep 1 the results gave Battler, Jessica, Maria and George as missing, when they actually died in the explosion. In Ep 2 Kinzo is declared missing, never dead, while in Ep 1 and 4 he's declared dead in the 4th and 9th even though we know he's dead at the start of the game, and Shannon supposedly died stabbed in her head prior to George and Gohda.
Hideyoshi wasn't dead yet when the game was suspended in Ep 5 yet he results dead.

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

Nononono XD That really is pure speculation.

1.Battler is always characterized as a peace-loving-idiot. Not once did he ever kill anyone nor did he want to suspect anyone and he even saved Natsuhi at the end of ep 5 by taking the blame even though he wasnt the culprit.

He's not always represented like an idiot. Although he took 5 games to solve everything he had his own moments in which he shined and ultimately he solved everything. He started with quite a huge handicap as, differently from Erika, not only he had no idea of which were the rules of the game, but he was also emotionally involved so his judgement wasn't rational.
Battler is capable of being smart, like when he let Kinzo escape from the room, and of lying, like in the whole Ep 5, when he was an accomplice.
He's a good person that doesn't mean harm... but LORD BATTLER knows that he's writing a tale in which the pieces aren't real people, the blame will be pinned on Erika and no one will read his tale apart from Beato (well, sort of, she's dead) as he'll seal it so that no one will further toy with the pieces due to his tale.
Add to this that we read Ep 6 in a rather dark light because we see it from MetaErika perspective but PieceErika might have been just a paranoid girl trying to play detective who killed everyone because she was actually paranoid and incompetent or something like that and thinks the culprit is faking his death (sort of like how Ange in the trick ending kills Kuwabata because she's afraid he might betray her).
We know really little of how Ep 6 mystery version was as not only it was interrupted soon but more than pieceErika in action we see MetaErika in action.
Beatrice liked mysteries. She wouldn't have been disgusted by him creating one for her. In Ep 3 it's hinted she wanted to play with Battler at creating mysteries.

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

2.When Kanon saved him from the closed room he says Battler endured for years to "protect the story", not that he waited for Beato to become her former self.

Battler had to protect the story from Erika, so he couldn't go and use that trick that handed her such a huge hint on Beato's nature so early on while Beato was unaware of the truth about herself. He previously said he had hope Beato would remember. Let's not cut that part. It was pretty important for him. It was the miracle he hoped for.
The story wasn't to just give Beato a happy tale but to prove he had understood her and how magic works. It's said over and over.
Also let's us not be tricked by confusing fantasy and Meta. Meta Battler never asked how he would be left free to escape and he never truly was closed in the room. It was fantasy Battler who was closed in the room and that meet fantasy Kanon who remained in the room with a collar tied around his neck.

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

And last but not least - the most important argument - Battler tried to get out of the room by himself, in the VN and in the manga that is made 100% clear. If he planned everything, he would not have had to tear his fingernails off to get out of there, he would have just had to sit back and wait...

That's fantasyBattler not MetaBattler. The one writing the story is MetaBattler who was currently marrying Erika and wasn't trapped in the room tearing away his fingernails.

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

At least its clearly stated that the end of the second Episode after Battler surrendered was never told in the message bottle, "there was no need". At least that part of meta-world was "added" somehow, and that of course influences all the parts of the meta-world.

Umineko is all a jump between the mystery, the fantasy and the meta. In Ep 2 there's even a scene where PieceBattler says the words MetaBattler wanted to say and in Ep 5 Erika breaks the wall between mystery and meta by talking to Bern while everyone was having breakfast (due to this and to other stuffs is possible to speculate that Erika was just insane and paranoid and that's why she could kill people in ep 6).

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

Hehe, yes, I 100% agree with your last sentence Well, I understand how the fantasy side represents many different entities from reality. And thats exactly my point. In Ep 8 it was presented as if Bern was added to the story just! because Touya met this cat that was Ikukos pet ("are you a ghost cat?" etc.). The relation between Bern and Ikuko! (not just Featherine) is also shown. I dont agree, but it was PRESENTED as if there would have never been a Bern if Touya didnt meet Ikuko. And like you said - that cant be the case. Bern is an existence that doesnt JUST relate to Ikukos cat. She appears in Ep 1-a story they said did have no relation with Touya/Ikuko and she also comes from Higurashi etc. So yes, the fantasy side developed her and she became Ikuko's cat - and since Im of the opinion that Touya/Ikuko is just a fragment world, that fits, since it is somewhat fantasy itself. But more importantly: The way Touya/Ikuko are presented to influence the story is definitely wrong! I wont interpret too much into her, exactly because I think the Touya/Ikuko-wrote-a-book-layer is not encompassing everything and the ultimate interpretation.

In Umineko existences can be re-modelled. We see that Yasu changes the shape of her own world so that Gaap stop being Beatrice and becomes Beatrice's friend and then Beatrice becomes the one who loves Battler and then Beatrice changes look and then in her mind Beatrice, which was a dear friend, becomes someone who tortures her.

The world could have been altered again to make possible for Bern to be Ikuko's cat. After all that's what writers can do when playing with characters.

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

I wouldnt say she is Sayo - there are no hints for that.

Actually there were hints for that and since in the VN it was never said she found the confession it was also the best explanation for how certain details could be known as it seemed hard to believe in such situation Battler and Sayo had sat up together and she had told him of how she pranked Berune or how she had met Gaap. We the confession in her hands though, even if some hints remain, Sayo's survival isn't necessary anymore.
Mind you, the manga hinted that the bottle was found much time after Battler started living with her. Unless beaches are kept dirty or are rather desert if this was true someone else should have found the bottle prior to her.

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

I forgot to mention, the red truth at the end of Episode 6 "when the seagulls cry, noone is left alive", DEFINITELY CANT refer to the 6th game also because of the following reason:

The time stops when the game is abandoned. Erikas piece doesnt leave the room for all eternity (she says it herself) and Kanon will remain in the closet for all eternity - he says it himself - the time of the game board wont be advanced. That means there is no way Erika will ever get to murder everyone else. time has stopped, all there is is a "what-if"-situation, that can never be determined with the red! -truth.

that is differerent from the 5th game, because the 5th game did reach its end - even though there would have been a different solution if Erika hadnt intervened. But the 6th game never ended and like I said - Erika will never move out of the room. the 6th game situation is the same as the 5th game situation only insofar as there could never be a red truth that says, for example, Eva is dead at the end of the 5th game.

with all this, the red truth obviously doesnt refer to the game board.

We don't know to what that ending refers. The game was left suspended due to the situation. As soon as they had dealt with Erika Beato and Battler might have resumed it for their own personal pleasure.
Or the sentence can refers to Bern's plans for the next game, the one in which Lion's exist (not the play Ange sees).
With lack of details we can't really say, even though considering the setting in which it's given I'll think it refers more to what Bern is planning to do than to Ep 6... even though very likely in Ep 6 mystery version everyone died just the same.
After all Will read the full tale (I guess Bern managed to steal the tale that was meant for Beato only).

We can't really say that it surely refers to Prime (especially with Ryukishi saying the ending is meant to be the magic one) so it's up to speculation.

About Nanjo: In the Confession it's confirmed he didn't want money from Sayo. Evidently money wouldn't be enough to fix his grandchild. Rosa however doesn't have money and if he has to get it from doing some dirty work he could pressure Krauss more. It would be less risky than cooperating with a murderer. Krauss can't refuse because if Nanjo tells the police he'll end in a jail, if Nanjo tells his siblings they'll do even worse.

About the guns: Let's pretend Nanjo decided getting involved into a murder is a brighter idea than blackmailing Krauss because... he's stupid, really. Nanjo has no reason to go into Kinzo's study unless it's to trick the siblings into thining Kinzo is alive. In order to get in he has to go through Genji. I doubt he'll manage to carry away more than one gun without being seen but Kinzo's study is often checked by Genji so he'll realize pretty soon that a gun is missing and that Nanjo was the one who took it. For Nanjo it would be an unbelievably stupid and risky plan.

Gohda was aware that a mystery game was going on and in fact he lied to support it in Ep 2, he was willing to pretend he died in Ep 3 (and ended up being killed short after) and lied again in Ep 4. If he was threatened by Rosa once he had closed himself in the guesthouse he'll be safe and could tell the truth. What could the co plotter do then? If it was George Gohda and Battler could overcome him. Kumasawa, Jessica and Maria are no threat. If it was Battler it'll be Gohda and George. Gohda is a coward but he's not weak.

Kinzo never said who were to solve the epitaph would become the head. This is just a speculation and this topic is discussed rather clearly in Ep 5 but also in Ep 7. Kinzo died without stating this. Kinzo wanted the epitaph to be solved by Lion, who's the only person for whom he makes exceptions. Eva and Rosa won't amount to much in his mind.
At best Kinzo could let them have the gold... but even this wasn't stated out loud so it's up to him. Genji would likely comply with the instructions he received from Kinzo. If they were focused only on Lion he would have no need to acknowledge Rosa or Eva as heads.

It's made clear that Eva, Rudolf and Rosa were in a hurry to get a lot of money.
Rosa is rather poor at making discussion and it's explained she's usually not one who'll take active part to them but in this case she too make an attempt.
There's no hint whatsoever in Ep 7 that Rosa created Yasu. All Rosa knew in Ep 7 is that Beatrice died and that she felt guilty. She had no idea Beatrice had a child.
Rosa is also referred as one who wants to live, that she's willing to fight for her life.

Yes, she's also in desperate need for love but why should she pursue Battler, a nephew she didn't see for 6 years?

Beatrice's issue is the furniture complex, the fact that furnitures can't love or be loved. Her fear of male lust is due to the condition her body is in.
Rosa's not afraid of male lust, actually she doens't mind making love with males.
Rosa also doesn't believe in witches and magic and uses the black witch story to manipulate Maria.
She wouldn't follow a magic ritual just because.
She could never have Battler as he's her nephew. She'll do better to pursue Hideyoshi.

Genji is very loyal to Kinzo because Kinzo saved his life and to Sayo because he felt guilty. Rosa is the one he probably blames for Beatrice's death. I'm not so sure he'll be loyal to her... and in fact in the Sayotrice route he doesn't care about ehr or the other siblings.

We keep on stumbling over the same point. Rosa needs to solve the epitaph prior to 1986 and if she had she was supposed to have at least enough money to save her company which she hadn't. Having money would lower her stress and make her more balanced so... why making the murders? And if the murders are more important than the gold why waiting 1986 when the Epitaph was available previously?

And how is she threatening everyone when it's hard to prove she has a gun to begin with?

In EP2, she was with Shannon and Genji and she later tells the group about Kinzo, who was already dead. It is most likely that she knew that Shannon was the new head. If she is an accomplice she may have been forced to follow Shannon's orders.

In Ep 2 it's pretty clear she's Sayo's accomplice as she also lied about the door of the church being closed and is the one to put the letter in the room at the end.
It's also hinted in Ougon that she was bribed.

Well Sayotrice's theory is by now almost completely explained so it's not even anymore that difficult... :P

Sayo knew how to use guns though which is confirmed in Ep 6. Rosa wandered around with a gun but her knowledge might be limited as Kinzo never let her or the siblings use those guns. We see that Eva didn't know how to use them well.
Rosa held a gun for most of Ep 2 but this doesn't imply she knew how to use it. She might have been like Natsuhi, who wandered around with a gun that actually had safe shots.

The black witch is Maria's invention and Rosa plays along with it because it's convenient to her.

You've to prove Beatrice is Rosa before claiming that Beatrice's feelings are Rosa's. Shannon, Kanon and Beato are tied together in the love duel in Ep 6 but nothing ever connect Beato to Rosa.

In Ep 7 manga version is shown that it was Shannon's body that was missing, and the guy who might have wanted to see was George (who asked HIdeyoshi if he could see Shannon).

Everyone saw how Rosa abused of Maria and, simply put, thought it was a problem between Rosa and Maria. Kinzo's children were abused by Kinzo. They've problems recognizing abuse. They've inherited his worst traits.
Krauss is misoginist and verbally abusive. Rudolf betrays his wife and handled an illegittimate baby by pushing it on her (Kinzo tried to push Lion on Natsuhi). Eva is so ambitious she'll step on everyone's corpse to get what she wants and she forces her own ambitions on her son first and on Ange's later, pretending too much. Rosa is abusive with Maria and whoever is weaker than her.

The whole Rosatrice theory doesn't really pay attention to Rosa's character. There are hints Sayo isn't as she look, just a meek girl, but there's no hint Rosa is Yasu.


The best solution for Ep 3 is that Eva was handed the solution by Sayo so the murders didn't have to stop. Eva didn't solve the epitaph, she as bribed with the promise of being made the one solving it if she were to be an accomplice.

I apologize for cutting bits here and there but the post was long and I had a long day at work... and I might also have messed up.

[Leslie Chow]

About Nanjo: In the Confession it's confirmed he didn't want money from Sayo. Evidently money wouldn't be enough to fix his grandchild. Rosa however doesn't have money and if he has to get it from doing some dirty work he could pressure Krauss more. It would be less risky than cooperating with a murderer. Krauss can't refuse because if Nanjo tells the police he'll end in a jail, if Nanjo tells his siblings they'll do even worse.

Okay, let's say that Nanjo doesn't have the guts to ask for money or even pressure anybody. But the money still got sent to his family nonetheless. At this point, Rosa or Sayo could have easily pressured the old man that "now that I did you a favor, do me a favor" and drove him in a corner.

About the guns: Let's pretend Nanjo decided getting involved into a murder is a brighter idea than blackmailing Krauss because... he's stupid, really. Nanjo has no reason to go into Kinzo's study unless it's to trick the siblings into thining Kinzo is alive. In order to get in he has to go through Genji. I doubt he'll manage to carry away more than one gun without being seen but Kinzo's study is often checked by Genji so he'll realize pretty soon that a gun is missing and that Nanjo was the one who took it. For Nanjo it would be an unbelievably stupid and risky plan.

Genji is the type of guy who knows everything and if the head wants to kill everybody he is willing to oblige. It's only likely that Genji would be informed by Rosa or Sayo of the plan. So if Nanjo is an accomplice and the plan required Nanjo to have one, then it wouldn't be any problem, since Genji would just see how things would play out.

Gohda was aware that a mystery game was going on and in fact he lied to support it in Ep 2, he was willing to pretend he died in Ep 3 (and ended up being killed short after) and lied again in Ep 4. If he was threatened by Rosa once he had closed himself in the guesthouse he'll be safe and could tell the truth. What could the co plotter do then? If it was George Gohda and Battler could overcome him. Kumasawa, Jessica and Maria are no threat. If it was Battler it'll be Gohda and George. Gohda is a coward but he's not weak.

George could easily knock Battler out. He does martial arts. Heck, even Nanjo might have given him a pistol. Gohda maybe big, but since George has some techniques, size isn't a problem.

Kinzo never said who were to solve the epitaph would become the head. This is just a speculation and this topic is discussed rather clearly in Ep 5 but also in Ep 7. Kinzo died without stating this. Kinzo wanted the epitaph to be solved by Lion, who's the only person for whom he makes exceptions. Eva and Rosa won't amount to much in his mind.
At best Kinzo could let them have the gold... but even this wasn't stated out loud so it's up to him. Genji would likely comply with the instructions he received from Kinzo. If they were focused only on Lion he would have no need to acknowledge Rosa or Eva as heads.

Kinzo was pretty old when he died. He mentioned in one of the episodes something along the lines that while a young man may do stupid things, when they get older, their sins become a thorn. This implies that he still wants salvation and forgiveness (as emphasized in most episodes) nonetheless. So he could also be desperate. If Rosatrice is to be followed, the incest baby is dead, and Rosa supposedly was given the Beatrice wig and clothing, that way Kinzo is able to apologize to Beatrice in a sense. Also because he is old, he might even comply with the idea that "Beatrice" should get the gold AND the headship, after all he might be caught up in his delusion that Beatrice really is there and that he forgot that this wasn't her (or maybe he thinks that it is indeed Lion).

It's made clear that Eva, Rudolf and Rosa were in a hurry to get a lot of money.
Rosa is rather poor at making discussion and it's explained she's usually not one who'll take active part to them but in this case she too make an attempt.
There's no hint whatsoever in Ep 7 that Rosa created Yasu. All Rosa knew in Ep 7 is that Beatrice died and that she felt guilty. She had no idea Beatrice had a child.

By this point she no longer cares about money and is set on killing people. In EP3, Rosa mentioned that she visited Beatrice 2 a couple of times and talked about lots of stuff, concerning Kinzo's visits. Because Beatrice 2 probably wouldn't know anything about what is to be told in public or in private, she might have also said that Kinzo had sex with her and that she had a baby.

Rosa is also referred as one who wants to live, that she's willing to fight for her life.

EP2, Kanon said that he and Jessica were killed by Rosa and that Rosa would kill everyone. Because of this statement, Rosa's claims that she wants to live and willing to fight for her life is questionable.

Yes, she's also in desperate need for love but why should she pursue Battler, a nephew she didn't see for 6 years?

There is this thing in EP7 where Shannon supposedly transferred her feelings for Battler to Beatrice. Also in EP7, when Battler left the Ushiromiya family, only Shannon and Rosa were worried about him. Rosa said she misses Battler. The other family members weren't as worried. Plus there was a part in EP5 where she gave a suggestive wink to Battler.

(LOL incest do run in the family regardless of what theory you believe in!) <-- Joke right here.

Beatrice's issue is the furniture complex, the fact that furnitures can't love or be loved. Her fear of male lust is due to the condition her body is in.

In the question arcs, she does not fear male lust. In fact, it sounds like she knows about it. In the question arcs, she doesn't view herself as furniture at all and sees herself superior to them. The thing about the condition of Yasu's body could be explained in a metaphorical way, since most of EP7 is fantasy and shouldn't be taken at face value.

Rosa's not afraid of male lust, actually she doens't mind making love with males.

This is very true. However, in EP4, she said to Maria that no man would accept a woman with someone else's child. This STRONGLY suggest that at some point, Rosa lost her chance to be in a relationship with the guy from Hokkaido and that she couldn't keep a boyfriend, so it is only natural to think that she'd be jealous of George and Shannon and even Jessica and Kanon. In all 4 games, Shannon and Beatrice are obviously "enemies" but in EP7, where the events take place before October 1986, they were friends (if Rosa is Beatrice). There is also a hint in EP2 that she and Shannon had tea and that they may have hung out. With all the supposed possession of the gold and the bomb, anyone in general would obviously be tempted to abuse this power (people can be easily be corrupted by power) and take the risk of carrying out the ritual in a literal fashion, so that she could receive 2 of the treasures bestowed to those who arrived in the Golden Land, the restoration of lost love and resurrection of the dead.

Rosa also doesn't believe in witches and magic and uses the black witch story to manipulate Maria.
She wouldn't follow a magic ritual just because.

In EP2, when Battler was drunk he met with Beatrice, and according to narration, he was told everything before acknowledging her as a witch. Since only Rosa, Genji, Battler and Maria are the only ones left at the island at that point, the only candidate to be Beatrice is Rosa. If we follow EP7 (without taking everything at face value), we find out that Yasu becomes Beatrice, and since we are going with the notion that Rosa is Beatrice, then we can conclude that Yasu is created by Rosa and represents some of her feelings. Of course the way it is presented should not be taken at face value, but as a hint and in a metaphorical fashion.

We keep on stumbling over the same point. Rosa needs to solve the epitaph prior to 1986 and if she had she was supposed to have at least enough money to save her company which she hadn't. Having money would lower her stress and make her more balanced so... why making the murders? And if the murders are more important than the gold why waiting 1986 when the Epitaph was available previously?

She was more concerned with getting a boyfriend, but in the end she failed. Plus, she seems to doesn't care about the company much and probably the guy was rich as well, so she might have been expecting that they get married and leaving her company for good (probably) and playing the role of housewife.

She took on the murders because life wasn't going her way. She lost her boyfriend (hinted at EP4), couldn't be a good mother, and was jealous of Shannon and George's relationship. Hence why she looks stress.

We don't even know exactly when she was found out by the child welfare officer that she was at Hokkaido leaving her daughter behind when she lost the key to the house. So it is very possible that it was sometime after the 1985 conference. If the murders are important, then she has to follow the ritual and enact it at 1986 conference, because the sacrifices are set by that time.

And how is she threatening everyone when it's hard to prove she has a gun to begin with?

EP2 and EP4. In EP2, she held the gun for the duration of this episode. Since in EP4 Battler doesn't see anything, then like the Sayotrice theory she has got to have guns in her possession to have the plan in EP4 in motion.

In Ep 7 manga version is shown that it was Shannon's body that was missing, and the guy who might have wanted to see was George (who asked HIdeyoshi if he could see Shannon).

With Rosatrice, you have to work with the text and that some of the pics are a deception and a fantasy, since most of EP7 is a fantasy setting.

Well Sayotrice's theory is by now almost completely explained so it's not even anymore that difficult... :P

With Sayotrice, it is pretty self - explanatory and you just have to polish things here and there. With Rosatrice, you have to work around it.

You've to prove Beatrice is Rosa before claiming that Beatrice's feelings are Rosa's. Shannon, Kanon and Beato are tied together in the love duel in Ep 6 but nothing ever connect Beato to Rosa.

In EP2, when Battler was drunk he met with Beatrice, and according to narration, he was told everything before acknowledging her as a witch. Since only Rosa, Genji, Battler and Maria are the only ones left at the island at that point, the only candidate to be Beatrice is Rosa. If we follow EP7 (without taking everything at face value), we find out that Yasu becomes Beatrice, and since we are going with the notion that Rosa is Beatrice, then we can conclude that Yasu is created by Rosa and represents some of her feelings. Of course the way it is presented should not be taken at face value, but as a hint and in a metaphorical fashion.

I apologize for cutting bits here and there but the post was long and I had a long day at work... and I might also have messed up.

No worries man. I am actually starting to have fun discussing in this forum. The posts are even getting longer. Like you said the first time I came here, this place is too quiet. Stuff IRL takes priority though.

[qno2]

I'd like to add a little tidbit/opinion to the debate on the solvability of Umineko based on only the first four episodes; I apologize if this has been adressed already or is too obvious to cover: the given names of Fukuin-servants.
To me it seems that Ryukishi was really just throwing us a bone with this, a little hint, on how a red like "Kanon is dead" (regarding EP2, 2nd Twilight) could be treated as "Kanon the servant is dead = 'whatever-his-true-name-is' ceased to be a servant and is now following his own agenda". Same for Shannon of course.
Thus adding the given names of Fukuin children allowed us early on to doubt reds like that. And it prepared Shkanon, although the trick turned out to be a bit more complex (and even cheaper) than that.

Reaching Shkanon however required more steps. The integral hint, as far as my severely limited understanding of Ryukishis design can take me, is Kinzo being dead at the start of all games, despite him being shown as alive, kicking and screaming like a newborn babe on numerous occasions. A hint that even "normal-looking scenes" could be a fantasy. I suppose we were to follow that line of thought and realize that one specific person never saw Kinzo alive - Battler. But then we have to deal with the end of EP2, where he did report to see him. Sure, Battler was drunk and had succumbed to the illusion of the witch at that point, but it makes it almost impossible to reach the following conclusion from "Kinzo being dead" and "Battler never (?) saw him alive": that only (or: at least) Battlers viewpoint is reliable. And then one would have to realize that Battler never saw Shannon and Kanon together (putting aside the Tea Parties).
Ryukishi might've overestimated us. It's possible but too convoluted.

On that note, and the primary reason I wanted to post something despite not being well-versed enough in the details of Umineko to really begin a discussion with you folks: does Yoshiya, Kanon's "true" name, mean anything in Japanese? Or is there some kind of word-game/riddle that could be behind it? Considering Sayotrice I was saddened that Kanon's decision and change of heart ultimately came to naught (although the story itself commented on it that it sure was a "beautiful" thing but "far too late"), so I wonder whether there is anything that the name Yoshiya could add to the background of the story.

There is also something else I'd like to cover, although I'll be skipping a few steps in your conversation here, but its something that isn't as often covered as EP6's logic error and the "trick that reveals the heart of Beatrice" therein. There was one other case in which Beatrice's heart was laid bare - quite graphically actually. Nanjo's murder in EP3, or more specifically the confrontation on the fantasy-level between Beatrice and Evatrice following the murder, as Beatrice tried to protect "Kanon" and Jessica in the parlor.
Using Sayotrice it is obvious why this mystery, and the wish to protect those two (and the "corpses" of "Shannon" and George) touches on the heart of Beatrice: her "heart", identity, her problems, issues, wishes, hopes, and thus personified in Shkanon are the solution to the otherwise impossible murder of Nanjo.

From what I remember Rosatrice solves this case with George, who was not dead but wounded, who got up after everyone left the room, and went to kill Nanjo, only to perish soon after that (hence he could be declared dead by Evatrice). So I wish to ask: How could this scenario touch upon the heart of Rosatrice?
(Let's not consider the red that the manga added later on to this mystery for now, since we're still talking about the solvability based on EP1-4 alone)

Spoiler for Ramblings:

As I wrote this I noticed another thing: Evatrice nearly seems like a GM who didn't know the rules of the gameboard (as opposed to Battler who apparently planned everything in EP6). Though in this case her inability to understand was obviously part of the fantasy narrative Beatrice had prepared for the episode. The gameboard and everything truly was handed to her without her understanding anything really, except that things got messy, people died, everything blew up, she survived. Okay, maybe I'm taking it too far with possible interpretations regarding Eva's understanding and knowledge about the Rokkenjima Massacre.

Sorry if this got convoluted, I was just interested what Sayotrice's take on this scene is. If I remembered something wrong (certainly possible!) please correct me, and I'm terribly sorry. It's been a few years since I read Umineko.

[Levani]

The integral hint, as far as my severely limited understanding of Ryukishis design can take me, is Kinzo being dead at the start of all games, despite him being shown as alive, kicking and screaming like a newborn babe on numerous occasions.

I think the biggest hint about Shkannon lies in EP2's first few chapters. I don't really get how Kinzo being dead is a hint to Shkannon though, I can't make any logical connection with it. Care to go into more details on why you think Kinzo being dead --> hint at Shkannon?

But then we have to deal with the end of EP2, where he did report to see him. Sure, Battler was drunk and had succumbed to the illusion of the witch at that point, but it makes it almost impossible to reach the following conclusion from "Kinzo being dead" and "Battler never (?) saw him alive": that only (or: at least) Battlers viewpoint is reliable.

Battler was able to witness Beatrice at the end of Episode 1 as well, the time was around 24:00 and if the memory serves me right, the time when Battler goes into Kinzo's study and finds Beato and him inside is right after 24:00. We were told multiple times that the game officially ends at 24:00. Obviously, because the bomb goes off and whoever remains to be alive -- dies. Battler at that point in time stops being a character in the story, therefore his objective viewpoint is lost.

[Leslie Chow]

Ryukishi might've overestimated us. It's possible but too convoluted.

He probably did. Originally EP3 was supposed to be Land of the Golden Witch, but because fans were already having a hard time with just the first two episodes, he scrapped the idea, but later used some of its concepts in the following episodes.

From what I remember Rosatrice solves this case with George, who was not dead but wounded, who got up after everyone left the room, and went to kill Nanjo, only to perish soon after that (hence he could be declared dead by Evatrice). So I wish to ask: How could this scenario touch upon the heart of Rosatrice?

In the Rosatrice theory, the illusion of Beatrice is created by the actions of Rosa, George (when he is still working with Rosa), and Nanjo. Since Nanjo probably didn't know that the epitaph was solved in EP3, he could still be considered an extension to Beatrice herself of sorts. The fantasy scene where ghost Kanon was revived by Beatrice saving Jessica can also be interpreted in the Rosatrice theory.

Nanjo, who was still with Jessica managed to put her in a safe place, before getting killed. Again this could account for the illusion that Beatrice was there. Ghost Kanon could be considered Jessica seeking comfort to her crush at a time of stress. The fact that George couldn't kill Jessica at that moment represents Eva-Beatrice's frustration that she can't get into the room and that George has to come back again at that place later (because with Jessica blinded, she is a lower priority), which is a hassle, since George was injured and has only a matter of time. (I could even add that George probably believed that at this point, he might as well take the risk of carrying out the ritual, under the belief that the souls would be resurrected and love would be restored, which could account for Eva-Beatrice saying the final line of the epitaph before killing Nanjo.) Beatrice's heart can symbolize Beatrice's rules and her trust. Beatrice follows her rules. If the epitaph is solved she won't kill anyone anymore (with Jessica alive, it could be interpreted that at least one person was able to make it out alive, thus being able to keep her promise a bit). If she doesn't follow her rules, then it reduces her challenge to a game without love, since that would break the trust between both sides (the people solving the epitaph and Beatrice). Eva-Beatrice was even willing to break that heart by trying to have it shot down by the Chiester Sisters and stepping on it, representing the fact that George does not care about Beatrice's rules and the trust between her and everyone else.

[Jaden]

On that note, and the primary reason I wanted to post something despite not being well-versed enough in the details of Umineko to really begin a discussion with you folks: does Yoshiya, Kanon's "true" name, mean anything in Japanese? Or is there some kind of word-game/riddle that could be behind it? Considering Sayotrice I was saddened that Kanon's decision and change of heart ultimately came to naught (although the story itself commented on it that it sure was a "beautiful" thing but "far too late"), so I wonder whether there is anything that the name Yoshiya could add to the background of the story.

Nothing that strange about Kanon's and Shannon's "real" names, other than it shows that their servant names were based off their "real" names (the first kanji was kept as is and the second one changed to "on"). Of course in the answer arcs we learn these names are also both made up and her given name is Lion, which is completely different from all the fake names.

嘉音 (Kanon)
嘉哉 (Yoshiya)
紗音 (Shannon)
紗代 (Sayo)
理御 (Lion)

It's really the Ushiromiya family's names that are unusual. Pretentious and picked to sound like european names.

[Levani]

Of course in the answer arcs we learn these names are also both made up and her given name is Lion, which is completely different from all the fake names.

Sayo is actually Yasuda's real name, so, it's not completely made up.

[Uberzaki]

Originally Posted by qno2

does Yoshiya, Kanon's "true" name, mean anything in Japanese? Or is there some kind of word-game/riddle that could be behind it? Considering Sayotrice I was saddened that Kanon's decision and change of heart ultimately came to naught (although the story itself commented on it that it sure was a "beautiful" thing but "far too late"), so I wonder whether there is anything that the name Yoshiya could add to the background of the story.

I have never been able to substantiate this, but I have heard in this thread that Yoshiya is apparently the japanese biblical equivalent of Joshua, which is cognate to the original version of Jesus' name.

There are also multiple meanings for the name 'Kanon' in european languages and Japanese (e.g. Kan'on readings), but that's not your question...

There was one other case in which Beatrice's heart was laid bare - quite graphically actually ...

I agree that the scene is very obviously a hint towards Beatrice's heart. Only problem is we are left with a resolution where, according to the TIPS, Battler was with Jessica when Eva killed him and a supposed Wolf and Sheep puzzle, meaning that either Jessica and Eva overpowered him or Eva came with two other people. I am wondering if Shkanontrice is only part of the picture there (and of the metaphorical scenes interpolated), but I may be misreading the wolf and sheep part, which may be referring only to EvaBeatrice accidentally shooting Jessica in Battler's presence.

Also funny irony tidbit: "Jessica" means foresighted, when in fact she is blinded before that scene.

[qno2]

Originally Posted by Levani

I think the biggest hint about Shkannon lies in EP2's first few chapters. I don't really get how Kinzo being dead is a hint to Shkannon though, I can't make any logical connection with it. Care to go into more details on why you think Kinzo being dead --> hint at Shkannon?

Of course, the early chapters that create the background are necessary as well (heck, some people apparently started thinking of Shkanon back in the prologue of EP2).
With that I meant that Kinzo being dead shows that even "normal looking scenes" - like Rosa and Shannon checking up on Kinzo in EP2 - are subject to the catbox as well, not only the "obviously magical" scenes. Ultimately this could get you thinking what determines whether a scene can be taken at face value or not. So if people manage to determine Battlers "special/detective status" from this (remember, we're talking about the solvability just using the first four episodes, where we didn't know that Battler was THE detective and the only one who could not be subject to "fantasy"), as in anything observed by him is somewhat trustworthy (or at least more trustworthy than scenes without him, like anything involving Kinzo) they could notice one small detail: "did Battler ever see Shannon and Kanon at the same time? Because only 'other people than Battler' ever saw them together."
So that's where I was going with it. A hint of Battler's special status which can then be used to realize that some scenes, among them all the scenes in which both Shannon and Kanon are described as being among others at the same time (and "those others" are always "not Battler"), might not be true; because in those kind of scenes with people "other than Battler" even Kinzo could scream about. Who is dead. Thus a fantasy.
But yes, maybe I went too far with the "integral"-bit, but I think it is necessary to realize that even if other people see Kanon and Shannon at the same we'd need Battler to confirm it.

Battler was able to witness Beatrice at the end of Episode 1 as well, the time was around 24:00 and if the memory serves me right, the time when Battler goes into Kinzo's study and finds Beato and him inside is right after 24:00. We were told multiple times that the game officially ends at 24:00. Obviously, because the bomb goes off and whoever remains to be alive -- dies. Battler at that point in time stops being a character in the story, therefore his objective viewpoint is lost.

Yes, I am aware. But it leaves enough leeway for Rosatrice to creep in and say that this scene was only possible because Rosa, unlike Shkanon, was still alive and playing the role of Beatrice and Kinzo (see last post of Leslie Chow [edit: the one before my post that is]), which is why I mentioned it. It really just makes it harder to realize the rule "Battler = Detective = cannot be deceived or be part of magical scenes" exists, because you then have to add "at least as long as he doesn't give up/it's not 24:00 yet".

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

He probably did. Originally EP3 was supposed to be Land of the Golden Witch, but because fans were already having a hard time with just the first two episodes, he scrapped the idea, but later used some of its concepts in the following episodes.

Which is a damn shame really! Considering how much EP3 changed in terms of world-building and the overarching plot I wonder just how much of it changed when he scrapped Land. Maybe we would've had a completely different story.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

In the Rosatrice theory, the illusion of Beatrice is created by the actions of Rosa, George (when he is still working with Rosa), and Nanjo. Since Nanjo probably didn't know that the epitaph was solved in EP3, he could still be considered an extension to Beatrice herself of sorts. The fantasy scene where ghost Kanon was revived by Beatrice saving Jessica can also be interpreted in the Rosatrice theory.

Thanks for your answer and clarifying your (or Rosatrice's) stance on this. I will however not engage in a discussion about interpretations and sorts and just accept this point of view. As I said, I am just not well-versed in Umineko at this point to make it worth your while; maybe others want to take up this topic. It is an interesting scene and often overlooked when "Beatrice's heart" is the current topic, in favor of EP6 and the logic error.

Originally Posted by Jaden

Nothing that strange about Kanon's and Shannon's "real" names, other than it shows that their servant names were based off their "real" names (the first kanji was kept as is and the second one changed to "on"). Of course in the answer arcs we learn these names are also both made up and her given name is Lion, which is completely different from all the fake names.

嘉音 (Kanon)
嘉哉 (Yoshiya)

What a shame really. When Kanon revealed his name it really felt like a huge step for him, and I always expected the revelation to be a "holy crap that is you!"-moment, so it was a bummer that this never really came up anymore.

Using jisho.org the "meanings" of the Kanji for Yoshiya (not always accurate tho) are "applaud; esteem; praise" and "?; alas; how; question mark; what". Not much that can be gained from that either.

Originally Posted by Uberzaki

I have never been able to substantiate this, but I have heard in this thread that Yoshiya is apparently the japanese biblical equivalent of Joshua, which is cognate to the original version of Jesus' name.

Cannot... resist.
Crack theory: Kanon is Jesus, he killed everyone and then left the island, walking on the water! And no, he cannot be killed, since he arises again afterwards - this can even clear up Zombkanon as well!
There, I killed the joke. I could say that in red too!

[Inbuiltx9]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

What's the difference between 'Kanon' and 'Sayo acting as Kanon'? They're the same being. Yasu didn't actually have dissociative identities.

The difference is that it is possible for Beato to state a red truth where Kanon is dead and Shannon is still running around alive, or where Beatos states that Shannon is dead and Kanon is still around. They have the same body, yet they count as different personalities. Whats going on in her head is irrelevant in this case. The third personality that can be alive even if Shannon and Kanon are dead is Sayo- thats why in the manga Battler can say Shannon and Kanon didnt call Natsuhi in Ep 5, to what Erika answers "its the same as with ther murder of Nanjo"

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

You only get declared dead after 7 years if it's a missing person's case. Considering Ange had a lot of money and connections to the mob, she can probably get herself declared dead immediately.

And 'Ushiromiya Ange' was declared dead; she's living under a pseudonym and she was amazed and frightened when Ikuko recognized her as Ange.

Like I said, it is possbile to see it that way, but there was nothing that hinted at that. I doubt she could even, because that relates to laws in Japan as a whole, even if she could do it, since she left everything to the the company I dont know where her connections would come from. Yes of course, Okonogi could have arranged everything, but there is never mentioned anything at all that hints at that. we only have the red truth that she died.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Uh...EP6 and the story Battler laid in Beato's coffin as a gift are different stories. He explicitly said no one was going to be allowed to read the latter, ever.



EP8 heavily implies he planned absolutely everything in EP6. Given that he 'exists on a higher plane' compared to the other characters as Territory Lord...

Its clearly stated that Lambda and Bern exist on a higher plane than the game master and Erika is Berns piece. The same way Beato couldnt control everything that happened (else the whole story looses its purpose because Battlers decisions and mistakes would have always been Beatos) Battler isnt omnipotent either. If he was, he could control everything, he could make Beato remember everything, and thats his problem in the first place... But maybe I just dont remember - where was it heavily implied? (honest question) I remember two quotes or something, but noting implies he planned "absolutely everything".

I know they are different. Thats my whole point XD Theres the dawn he wrote at the beginning of episode 6 about which he wondered if he could show it to Beato. And theres the dawn as Episode 6 played out. Unless he is better than Beato and wrote two stories at the same time without telling anyone, the way episode 6 turned out was at least not fully planned. and now, both episode 6 and the book he writes for beato are called dawn. its really much more logical to think episode 6 is dawn just with some radical changes. I dont know if he spontaneously decided to include the logic error or not. Since my most important argument isnt refuted yet, there is not much that leads me to believe he did- some hints are there yes, but they arent strong.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Uh...you realize there's a BOMB, right?

Well yes XD But the bomb wont explode ever if the time doesnt advance - or else Kannon wouldnt have to think hell spend eternity in the closed room.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

Okay, let's say that Nanjo doesn't have the guts to ask for money or even pressure anybody. But the money still got sent to his family nonetheless. At this point, Rosa or Sayo could have easily pressured the old man that "now that I did you a favor, do me a favor" and drove him in a corner.

Sayo didn't need to pressure him. He volunteered to help her out of guilt for her condition, believing it was just a game and nobody would die. He said he didn't need money and was unaware she sent him some.
In Rosa's case we've the problem that Nanjo isn't feeling guilty, he knows Rosa was involved in Beatrice's death (and he felt guilty toward Beatrice), the money arrives to his house/relatives after the incident has happened so he didn't know about it.
And before having Rosa own money we still have to explain how she was in poor economical conditions.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

Genji is the type of guy who knows everything and if the head wants to kill everybody he is willing to oblige. It's only likely that Genji would be informed by Rosa or Sayo of the plan. So if Nanjo is an accomplice and the plan required Nanjo to have one, then it wouldn't be any problem, since Genji would just see how things would play out.

Genji is loyal to the head because Kinzo saved his life among with the fact he was his friend. He claims he'll serve Sayo because he is guilty toward her but it's also implied once Kinzo died he too had no wish to go on.
In short he served Sayo out of guilt but if another was made the head he might have decided to retire. He's old enough and was likely the one best paid (just the Fukuin servants get paid quite a lot) so it's not like he had to obey Rosa.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

George could easily knock Battler out. He does martial arts. Heck, even Nanjo might have given him a pistol. Gohda maybe big, but since George has some techniques, size isn't a problem.

Battler is also not weak. It's implied he's the physically stronger among the cousins and that he apparently went through his share of fights. He also trains regularly. We don't know if among the sports he makes there's also some fighting discipline or it's just physical exercise. In Ep 1 is Battler who manages to break the door enough for the cousins to get out and reach Natsuhi, not George.
We know George learnt martial arts but not if he's still training at them.
I'll say they could put up an interesting fight. George though would have to face two opponents and anyway gohda might not even know George is trained in martial arts so he wouldn't even consider being wary of him. Gohda is the new guy after all.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

Kinzo was pretty old when he died. He mentioned in one of the episodes something along the lines that while a young man may do stupid things, when they get older, their sins become a thorn. This implies that he still wants salvation and forgiveness (as emphasized in most episodes) nonetheless. So he could also be desperate. If Rosatrice is to be followed, the incest baby is dead, and Rosa supposedly was given the Beatrice wig and clothing, that way Kinzo is able to apologize to Beatrice in a sense. Also because he is old, he might even comply with the idea that "Beatrice" should get the gold AND the headship, after all he might be caught up in his delusion that Beatrice really is there and that he forgot that this wasn't her (or maybe he thinks that it is indeed Lion).

Kinzo was never called senile though but it was always stated he was sharp. In Sayotrice he even figured out that Sayo was the baby and that's why he set up the epitaph. We know all the scenes in which we see him raving are fantasies placed after he died. Before becoming a dead shut in he was still sharp enough, even if prone to outburst of emotions which could range from overly complaining/whining over his children to beat and insult them to the point of abuse. He wants to be forgiven but he wants to be forgiven by Beatrice through Lion.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

By this point she no longer cares about money and is set on killing people. In EP3, Rosa mentioned that she visited Beatrice 2 a couple of times and talked about lots of stuff, concerning Kinzo's visits. Because Beatrice 2 probably wouldn't know anything about what is to be told in public or in private, she might have also said that Kinzo had sex with her and that she had a baby.

You remember wrong. Rosa met Beatrice only once and when she did she lead her out of her house and Beatrice died. Beatrice didn't mention having a child and Rosa judged her pretty immature and more close to a child than to an adult.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

EP2, Kanon said that he and Jessica were killed by Rosa and that Rosa would kill everyone. Because of this statement, Rosa's claims that she wants to live and willing to fight for her life is questionable.

But we all know that Kanon in that scene was fantasy, that he was being controlled by Beatrice (and it would be odd for Beato to pin the blame on herself) and that ultimately he was lying.
Rosa shows she wants to live through all Ep 2, part in ep 3 and even in ep 4 she tries to fight before being killed. Rosa can work as a parallel to Sayo, as she too is waiting for someone and knows he'll never come back but ultimately her desperation steems by the burden of having to pay his debt. If she were to have money she believe she could pay off his debt she would regain his love.
Her situation isn't as hopeless as Sayo who believes no matter what her body won't allow her to be loved.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

There is this thing in EP7 where Shannon supposedly transferred her feelings for Battler to Beatrice. Also in EP7, when Battler left the Ushiromiya family, only Shannon and Rosa were worried about him. Rosa said she misses Battler. The other family members weren't as worried. Plus there was a part in EP5 where she gave a suggestive wink to Battler.

(LOL incest do run in the family regardless of what theory you believe in!) <-- Joke right here.

If Sayo hands her feelings to Beatrice she just push them in a corner of her mind. If Sayo hands her feelings to another person... how would it work, really? She forces them on Rosa? Note that by then Rosa was likely more concerned with Maria's father than with Battler who was... what? 15? And her last memory of him was of a cute kid shorter than Jessica (Battler hit his grown spurt late).

Rosa's relations with men are relations with men, not with kids/teenagers. That wink was merely playful as anyway the family likes to joke about Battler and how handsome he has grown, Eva included (the only one not quite joking on it is Natsuhi who however praises him for growing similar to Kinzo whom she worshipped)

Battler claims that Rosa, like Hideyoshi, is a kind aunt who's always on the kids' side. So it fits she missed Battler. Natsuhi also sided a lot with Battler but Krauss showed he didn't apprecciate his wife scolding Rudolf so she probably restrain herself. In a way mentioning Battler is rude toward Kyrie as she's part of the reason why Battler is missing which is probably why the other adults keep quiet.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

In the question arcs, she does not fear male lust. In fact, it sounds like she knows about it. In the question arcs, she doesn't view herself as furniture at all and sees herself superior to them. The thing about the condition of Yasu's body could be explained in a metaphorical way, since most of EP7 is fantasy and shouldn't be taken at face value.

In Ep 2 Beatrice is clearly disgusted by male lust and use it as a way to demean Shannon and George's love by claiming George only lusted after her (which the sub meaning that if George were to know the truth about her he would be disgusted).
In Ep 3 she talked about Kinzo's love for her as entirely based on lust and wish to posses her and refuses to be trapped by this to the point she kills herself.
When she refers to how Kinzo slept with her in ep 4 she basically says Kinzo abused of her.
Beatrice's view of sex is based on men lusting for women, keeping them trapped and abusing them. She acts like she can control it (which she said she did by killing herself) but I wouldn't say it's a person who looks like she apprecciates making love and in fact it's said she learnt to apprecciate it after her marriage with Battler.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

This is very true. However, in EP4, she said to Maria that no man would accept a woman with someone else's child. This STRONGLY suggest that at some point, Rosa lost her chance to be in a relationship with the guy from Hokkaido and that she couldn't keep a boyfriend, so it is only natural to think that she'd be jealous of George and Shannon and even Jessica and Kanon. In all 4 games, Shannon and Beatrice are obviously "enemies" but in EP7, where the events take place before October 1986, they were friends (if Rosa is Beatrice). There is also a hint in EP2 that she and Shannon had tea and that they may have hung out. With all the supposed possession of the gold and the bomb, anyone in general would obviously be tempted to abuse this power (people can be easily be corrupted by power) and take the risk of carrying out the ritual in a literal fashion, so that she could receive 2 of the treasures bestowed to those who arrived in the Golden Land, the restoration of lost love and resurrection of the dead.

Ep 2 has Shannon and Beato being friends for a short time. In Ep 3 Kanon, having been resurrected by Beato admits he is in debt with her, a debt he'll pay in Ep 6. Beatrice is more or less the representation of the ID, the part of personality made up of unconscious energy that is focuses on fulfilling urges and desires.
In fact she's the one who hands Shannon the broch to fulfil her wish and tempts Kanon with the same item. Like everything in Umineko it's not necessarily bad, provided your urges and desires are a positive thing. When Sayo turns to self hate Beatrice, instead than helping her, starts harming her.
Ignoring Beatrice (which Shannon does in Ep 2) means ignoring her true wishes, denying yourself.
Submitting to Beatrice (which Kanon does) means allowing yourself to follow your desires regardless of them being bad or good.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

In EP2, when Battler was drunk he met with Beatrice, and according to narration, he was told everything before acknowledging her as a witch. Since only Rosa, Genji, Battler and Maria are the only ones left at the island at that point, the only candidate to be Beatrice is Rosa. If we follow EP7 (without taking everything at face value), we find out that Yasu becomes Beatrice, and since we are going with the notion that Rosa is Beatrice, then we can conclude that Yasu is created by Rosa and represents some of her feelings. Of course the way it is presented should not be taken at face value, but as a hint and in a metaphorical fashion.

The problem would be that Battler met also Kinzo. Since Genji remains outside this would means that either Rosa plays the role of Beatrice and Kinzo switching costumes really fast, Maria plays the role of Kinzo or it's a fantasy scene.
But the best hint this is a fantasy scene is that the room is filled with golden butterflies.

Now as this is a fantasy scene it can be that:
- Battler was actually killed by Rosa before she escaped. Once he's dead he can see as many fantasy scenes as he wants.
- Battler is so drunk he's just allucinating. In addition to this he has given up being the detective both in the meta and in game so his point of view isn't reliable anymore.
- When Genji goes to Battler is 11:30. We knows he tells Battler he believes time has come for him to tell Battler everything. Then there's a change of heart as Genji tells him he'll carry him to Kinzo's study so Kinzo and Beatrice will tell him everything.
It can be that actually it was Genji who told Battler everything as he said he would do but this tale caused time to run out so that Battler died. This part however wascut by the story and we're shown a fantasy scene in which he's actually told he'll be lead by Kinzo and Beatrice. His point of view isn't reliable anymore because he's already dead but we weren't shown that part.
- When Genji goes to Battler is 11:30. Battler however takes half a hour to reach Kinzo's study for (insert reason here) so once he gets there time's up and he dies.
- Confession says people can see golden butterflies 30 minutes before dying. When Genji goes to Battler is 11:30. In 30 minutes the bomb will go off and Battler will be dead. I take if he can see golden butterflies, which are clearly fantasy, he can see even Beatrice, Kinzo and flying elephants. Note that I hate this rule Sayo made up and I can't find a logic basis for it (why 30 minutes? Why not 40? 1 hour? 2 days?) but I know butterflies are tied to death and rebirth in Japanese culture so maybe for a Japanese person it would ring a bell. For me, I only get an headache.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

She was more concerned with getting a boyfriend, but in the end she failed. Plus, she seems to doesn't care about the company much and probably the guy was rich as well, so she might have been expecting that they get married and leaving her company for good (probably) and playing the role of housewife.

It's not that Rosa doesn't care for the company, it's that Rosa is poor at taking care of the things she cares/should care for.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

EP2 and EP4. In EP2, she held the gun for the duration of this episode. Since in EP4 Battler doesn't see anything, then like the Sayotrice theory she has got to have guns in her possession to have the plan in EP4 in motion.

In Ep 2 she's Beatrice's/Sayo's accomplice and Genji hands her a gun same as he did when he handed it to Natsuhi in Ep 1. As Rosa might know as much as Natsuhi about guns it can also be that the gun in question is the same as the one Natsuhi had with safe bullets.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

With Rosatrice, you have to work with the text and that some of the pics are a deception and a fantasy, since most of EP7 is a fantasy setting.

That was Will's solution. It wasn't fantasy.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

With Sayotrice, it is pretty self - explanatory and you just have to polish things here and there. With Rosatrice, you have to work around it.

That's because Rosatrice isn't the intended solution and therefore you've to force the wrong piece of a puzzle in a certain position.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

If we follow EP7 (without taking everything at face value), we find out that Yasu becomes Beatrice, and since we are going with the notion that Rosa is Beatrice, then we can conclude that Yasu is created by Rosa and represents some of her feelings. Of course the way it is presented should not be taken at face value, but as a hint and in a metaphorical fashion.

The problem is that Yasu's situation and Rosa's situation as presented are totally different. Yasu's backstory becomes a complete work of fantasy and I can't even figure why Rosa would create Yasu in the first place as Yasu can be many things but not a support for Rosa or a representation of Rosa's life.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

No worries man. I am actually starting to have fun discussing in this forum. The posts are even getting longer. Like you said the first time I came here, this place is too quiet. Stuff IRL takes priority though.

Thanks! I'm having fun discussing as well so thank you for making the forum lively again.

Originally Posted by qno2

On that note, and the primary reason I wanted to post something despite not being well-versed enough in the details of Umineko to really begin a discussion with you folks: does Yoshiya, Kanon's "true" name, mean anything in Japanese? Or is there some kind of word-game/riddle that could be behind it? Considering Sayotrice I was saddened that Kanon's decision and change of heart ultimately came to naught (although the story itself commented on it that it sure was a "beautiful" thing but "far too late"), so I wonder whether there is anything that the name Yoshiya could add to the background of the story.

There are various theories about the meaning of Yoshiya.

The math/chess one:

Yoshiya in numbers is 448 if you add 4+4+8= 16 which is the number of the chess pieces on the game board and the number of people truly on the island.

The math/demon one:

Somewhere I've read 16 is also a number tied to Zepar while Furfur would be tied to Sayo (which in number is 34, same as Lambda)

The inverse reading one:

According to some Yoshiya is just Sayo spelled backwards in japanese, while adding an “i” (for “ai/love”, for “without love it can’t be be seen”). As something similar was done for the Chiesters it can make sense.

The Christian one:

According to some Yoshiya would be the Japanese version of Yehoshua which in English is Joshua or also Jesus. I don't really see Kanon as some martir who sacrifices himself to save the world and redem the people from their sins (for me it's a too forceful interpretation) but well, with Beatrice being atop mount purgatory and the Fukuin being a catholic institute maybe it can make sense Sayo would come up with such name.

Originally Posted by qno2

From what I remember Rosatrice solves this case with George, who was not dead but wounded, who got up after everyone left the room, and went to kill Nanjo, only to perish soon after that (hence he could be declared dead by Evatrice). So I wish to ask: How could this scenario touch upon the heart of Rosatrice?
(Let's not consider the red that the manga added later on to this mystery for now, since we're still talking about the solvability based on EP1-4 alone)

Well, that's the problem with Rosatrice. Even if you find a way to make it work it doesn't touch the heart of Umineko.

Spoiler for Ramblings:

As I wrote this I noticed another thing: Evatrice nearly seems like a GM who didn't know the rules of the gameboard (as opposed to Battler who apparently planned everything in EP6). Though in this case her inability to understand was obviously part of the fantasy narrative Beatrice had prepared for the episode. The gameboard and everything truly was handed to her without her understanding anything really, except that things got messy, people died, everything blew up, she survived. Okay, maybe I'm taking it too far with possible interpretations regarding Eva's understanding and knowledge about the Rokkenjima Massacre.

Sorry if this got convoluted, I was just interested what Sayotrice's take on this scene is. If I remembered something wrong (certainly possible!) please correct me, and I'm terribly sorry. It's been a few years since I read Umineko. [/QUOTE]

My feelings were that Evatrice was meant to represent how Eva, who merely things would go in a certain way, ended up in a mess bigger than her. Likely she thought to be in control of the game but when Hideyoshi and George died unexpectedly she was lost. At this point thought she forcefully took back the control accepting her role as culprit and shooting at Battler.
In the same way Evatrice seems to believe she's just playing a game then she's challenged by Battler and starts to lose so to gain control she litterally bury him in red.

Though there's to say we're told it was all Beatrice and Virgilia's plan and, until Battler took Piece Evatrice and pushed her in the chair of the gamemaster it can very well be that in truth Evatrice wasn't as free as we're lead to believe. She can beat PieceBeatrice on the gameboard but not GMBeatrice. But Battler doesn't know the difference between the two so he's lead to think that GMBeatrice and PieceBeatrice are the same person... which is clearly not the case as well shown in Ep 5 where PieceBeatrice is lively while MetaBeatrice isn't even capable to do the GM as she's almost comatose.

Originally Posted by Levani

Battler was able to witness Beatrice at the end of Episode 1 as well, the time was around 24:00 and if the memory serves me right, the time when Battler goes into Kinzo's study and finds Beato and him inside is right after 24:00. We were told multiple times that the game officially ends at 24:00. Obviously, because the bomb goes off and whoever remains to be alive -- dies. Battler at that point in time stops being a character in the story, therefore his objective viewpoint is lost.

In Ep 1, like in Ep 4 when Beatrice is over the balcony, he couldn't really see her well. He saw a person in Beatrice's dress while the place was pretty dark. Maria had ran to her and claimed it was Beatrice and he believed it. Then he sees Beatrice laughing and then it's midnight. He didn't really have enough time nor the best visual to realize it was Sayo.
The same happens when he sees her over the balcony. She's dressed up with a wig so as to loook like Beatrice and she's distant. There's no enough light or closeness for Battler to realize she's not Beatrice.
In Ep 2 though he is called by Genji at 11:30. I've discussed previously how things could have gone but what's sure is that in Ep 2 he couldn't have seen Beatrice as the room is also filled with golden butterflies which are a clear hint this is all fantasy.

Originally Posted by Uberzaki

I agree that the scene is very obviously a hint towards Beatrice's heart. Only problem is we are left with a resolution where, according to the TIPS, Battler was with Jessica when Eva killed him and a supposed Wolf and Sheep puzzle, meaning that either Jessica and Eva overpowered him or Eva came with two other people. I am wondering if Shkanontrice is only part of the picture there (and of the metaphorical scenes interpolated), but I may be misreading the wolf and sheep part, which may be referring only to EvaBeatrice accidentally shooting Jessica in Battler's presence.

Also funny irony tidbit: "Jessica" means foresighted, when in fact she is blinded before that scene.

In Ep 3 Battler wasn't exactly with Jessica. Jessica was hidden in the parlor and Battler was in front of it. We don't really know Jessica's real status it can be she was dead but still Battler was unaware she was there.
Eva might have felt she was the victim of a wolf and sheep puzzle (she hadn't killed George so she can think Jessica and Battler would work together against her) or it could actually be the reverse. Battler is technically a sheep who's alone and there are two culprits/wolves wandering around, one is Eva and the other is Sayo. Ergo Battler gets killed.

[jTiKey]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Knox. Battler is the detective for ep 1. He can't say falsehood. If he say he viewed Rosa's corpse that corpse is Rosa's. Besides the corpses' identity was confirmed by red as Battler didn't know he had detective's privileges.

Battler sees Sayo, but calles him\her Shannon.
Battler calls Shannon "she".
Battler calls Kanon "he".

So what? Did he lie? As you say, HE SAD IT IN RED.

Battler checked only Rudolf's and Kyries corpses. Read the VN please. And. he isn't an esper to confirm dead bodies by sight.

EP 2 ending is a magic scene. Evil Witch killing Rosa at the end.

EP 3 - Rosa died, not Evil Witch. Are you sure you know Sayotrice? Same stuff here.

EP 4 - easy. Evil witch everywhere.

It's funny. You write miles of text, but all is just bs, you think is true.

but in general, Ryu meseed up the story starting from EP 6. This isn't a mystery novel. It's just a wannabe. Nice start, horrible ending. A shame he changed the manga plot, I'd still buy the VN story line.

[Inbuiltx9]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Yes, in this case it's more like Sayo playing Kanon's role. But the whole thing has the purpose to get you thinking about how and why Kanon was resurrected and other characters won't be (Genji for example will never be resurrected).
And it's interesting to compare Kanon's resurrection in Ep 2 with his resurrection in Ep 3, where only his voice was 'resurrected' if we can say so.

Huh? I dont really get this The purpose was to show there is a third "personality" apart from Kanon and Shannon that can run around and "play" Kanon/Shannon (even though she does never act like them in those moments) that still lives even when Kanon and Shanon are declared dead. Thats how Battlers trick with the phone call in Ep 5 worked (manga 8)

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Nope, in Ep 3 it's Shannon who's resurrected. At least in the magic scene showed to us. The one resurrected is the girl who loved George. In truth Ep 7 manga version shows that when George entered in the room Sayo was there waiting for him to kill him off (possibly after questioning him like she did in Ep 2...).

Yes, in the magic scene its Shannon,but like you said - in game-board reality its Sayo. And the red truth only ever refers to reality, never to the magic scenes. Thats why Shannon is never resurrected in a world that is not fantasy.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

It applies because Ange's suicidal personality died and she became a person capable of looking toward the future. Her personality becomes different.
In some countries to say that "the person you were before died" is a common way to say to imply you changed.
Red is not so clear cut nor it has to refer to the most obvious meaning. That's why Battler and Erika start checking definitions.

That doesnt convince me yet The reason Ange always ends up as "minces meat" for me is pretty clear. And as long as there was never mentioned anrything like "death can mean personality-change" there is no basis for this claim, quite the contrary because Ange in magic ending more or less confirm that evading this red-truth is pretty hard...BUT...

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Nope. The scene in which Ange jumps is after she saw Bernkastel and therefore it's a clear fantasy scene. The true ending as far as Ryukishi is involved is the magic ending. Ange considered jumping but didn't do it. Everything from Ange's jump in Ep 3, her travel in Ep 4, her meeting with Hachijo Tohya in Ep 6, her killing Amakusa on the boat in Ep 8 was fantasy and rather filled with fantasy elements that lead her to a determinate fantasy, to end her own life after she had accomplished some sort of goal.
When she leaves she didn't say that she'll always remain Ushiromiya Ange but that she hadn't given up on being Ange. She'll be Ange-Beatrice, which only means that through her stories she'll spread magic and keep alive the people she loved in her heart.
Previously Ange even said that Ushiromiya Ange died but that she'll keep on living. More than a hint on her really dying is likely a hint of how she managed to disappear, by spreading the rumour she died.

Ok, THAT actually convinces me. I somehow didnt remember the scene where she said herself that she died. And she indeed jumps AFTER she meets Bern. Thats why it as actually possible that Ange DID survive.
But still, the magic ending remains a magic ending - there are too many hints for that - the fact that she "saw" the events of Ep 8 - but she was another Ange than the Ange that was taking part in Ep 8 (the one that had met Featherine before). ...the fact that Ikuko didnt age and the fact that Ikuko promised Ange to compensate for the role she gave Ange in episode 6....+ the fact that the magic ending is called a magic ending all let us know, that this ending is fantasy/happend in the world of the book.
Also - we're completely getting the stories mixed up here - Ange in the magic ending has seen the events of ep 8. but this magic ending is supposed to be on the same layer as Touya/Ikuko who are supposed to have written the events of episode 8. Im sorry, that doesnt make any sense XD Actually the magic ending can be considered part of the book Ikuko and Touya wrote.

And as far as I remember Ryukishi never said the magic ending is the true ending, he said you can choose one of the three endings, but to him it would probably be the magic ending.
Sure he would choose this ending, this guy "believes" in magic and I too, can consider that as the "true" ending of the story, but not as a "Prime-Red-Truth"-Ending.
But what Ryukishi DID say was, that with Episode 8, he'd make us believe in magic...

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Of course you can offer a different interpretation that for you, seems more fitting. It's the same thing the Rosatrice fans are doing but you've the advantage that the Ange surviving theory is less strongly supported than the Sayotrice theory because the manga hadn't touched it yet and we only have Ryukishi's words that the magic ending is the true ending.

No no, I actually just stick to the facts and dont try to stretch them. Since I thought nothing supported the interpretation "Ange changes = Anges death" I considered that YOU were stretching the facts But I gotta admit, your last two points convinced me - Ange not jumping before meeting Bern and Ange herself stating that she died.

Just that again - Ryukishi didnt say its the true ending.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

And if you ask me my favourite interpretation is that actually Ange disappeared with Tohya not knowing if she was alive or dead and that Ange's future was merely written by Tohya as he hoped his sister had finally found peace and that he could meet her again. But well, this interpretation ends up taking away the meaning of the last scene so it's likely not the right one.

I COMPLETELY agree with you there. Thats what I think as well. And no, that doesnt take away its meaning IMO. Because even Ange and everyone else are part of the book-world. If you'd like to think that way-as Ikuko does - they created a world. And by writing this very last part of the story, the finished this world with a happy ending - the Ange that took part in the book didnt wait in vain, and Battler could finally rest in peace. This last part happens on the same layer as the story of the book, thats why I find this interpretation far more meaningful than anything else.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Interpretations must also fit with the themes of the story. If Ange had died her whole story would be useless fantasy as it would lead to nowhere. Battler could have never saved her because she was already dead and no message could reach her.
The manga put emphasis on the parallel between Beato and Ange and how learning from Beato's story and from her mistakes will allow Ange to save herself.

Well, she would still "live", but the same as Battler would live when he says he's able to bring Beato out of the game world because he understood everything about magic. And the way I thought before was that Ange was able to get into this world of the dead in the first place because she was dead too. The question only remained if she could still go on living in an alternate world. Well, but since I agree Ange probably lives now, I dont need that reasoning

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Eva is not protecting Ange merely out of the godness of her heart. She admitted she did it to protect herself. She was miserable and hateful. She even grew paranoid and insane. This wasn't the person she was prior to the Rokkenjima incident.

I can interpret her change like the death of the Eva she was previously. But that's sort of irrelevant. Eva didn't die, each record referring to her as dead referred to piece Eva in a certain game or to the Eva of 1998.

The truth of the Prime leaves another impression, she DID feel sorry for Ange even after her father just murdered her son. And she also did say in the beginning she couldnt tell Ange about the truth - and Ep 8 also showed that this Eva-Beatrice was protecting Ange by taking the blame, even though she would have had a MUCH BETTER life if she just published what was written in the diary.
Here I still have a big problem to see how Eva could have survived.

Like I said, the death referring to Eva in 1998 is just really dumb, if it were the case, Bern wouldnt have to be surprised that Battler survived when she announced that he was dead in Ep 8-he could have died whenever...Its slightly better letting the truth refer to a game board-Eva. That is possible but Im somehow not convinced -because of the red truth after ep 6 and of ep 4, which seemed to be far too important to refer to only one single game-board. But, like I said, its possible...It feels like Ryukishi changed his opinion in the middle of the story, but I wont say its unlogical.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Yet Ryukishi declared the magic ending is the true ending.

No he didnt XD

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Are you referring to the gold used in the manga?
That's just how the typer decided to write it. In the original Japanese version the death are written in black and in the Visual Novel they're written in white.
There's no gold there.
The only gold spoken in Ep 6 is in reference to the candy magic.
And Ep 8 explained that Ep 6 was a perfect world for Beato because nor witches nor one of the relatives was at fault (Erika is not a witch in the game and she's not a relative) and because in the magic ending none of her three personalities suffered failure.
Yes, for the victims of the first twilight it was supposed to be all a prank. The same trick was used in Ep 5 when the cousins took part to the first twilight believing it was a prank... and even in Ep 4 when Jessica phoned to Battler claiming she'd been killed believing she was a prank.
But it's a mystery, not the tale of a prank, just a mystery in which a prank went wrong. Beato doesn't know which are Battler's plans and he hinted to her he has another goal.

Also if you compare the other results of the other games you'll find out they match how the twilights are declared, not really the death order.
In Ep 1 the results gave Battler, Jessica, Maria and George as missing, when they actually died in the explosion. In Ep 2 Kinzo is declared missing, never dead, while in Ep 1 and 4 he's declared dead in the 4th and 9th even though we know he's dead at the start of the game, and Shannon supposedly died stabbed in her head prior to George and Gohda.
Hideyoshi wasn't dead yet when the game was suspended in Ep 5 yet he results dead.

Good to know! Thanks! I hadnt found the Japanese raw, just the Chinese. And yes, they actually DO refer to the twilights. I stand corrected
It doesnt really affect my reading though since those were only small hints.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

He's not always represented like an idiot. Although he took 5 games to solve everything he had his own moments in which he shined and ultimately he solved everything. He started with quite a huge handicap as, differently from Erika, not only he had no idea of which were the rules of the game, but he was also emotionally involved so his judgement wasn't rational.
Battler is capable of being smart, like when he let Kinzo escape from the room, and of lying, like in the whole Ep 5, when he was an accomplice.

Yes, but then he was controlled by Lambda/Bern, the same he was controlled by Bern when he solved the riddle together with Erika in Ep 5. Anyways, I agree that he isnt really an idiot, just pretty naive...And ep 6 really would mean a huuuuuuge crack in his personality.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

He's a good person that doesn't mean harm... but LORD BATTLER knows that he's writing a tale in which the pieces aren't real people, the blame will be pinned on Erika and no one will read his tale apart from Beato (well, sort of, she's dead) as he'll seal it so that no one will further toy with the pieces due to his tale.

and no one will read his tale apart from Beato....and all the readers and pieces and everyone else who took part in Ep 6 XD if episode 6 took part the way he planned and wrote it at the beginning of ep 6.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Add to this that we read Ep 6 in a rather dark light because we see it from MetaErika perspective but PieceErika might have been just a paranoid girl trying to play detective who killed everyone because she was actually paranoid and incompetent or something like that and thinks the culprit is faking his death (sort of like how Ange in the trick ending kills Kuwabata because she's afraid he might betray her).
We know really little of how Ep 6 mystery version was as not only it was interrupted soon but more than pieceErika in action we see MetaErika in action.
Beatrice liked mysteries. She wouldn't have been disgusted by him creating one for her. In Ep 3 it's hinted she wanted to play with Battler at creating mysteries.

You're right with your last sentence. She wouldnt be disgusted, Im pretty sure he would be The pieces on the game boards are after all not just lifeless pieces...They really are his family one way or another, thats why he didnt like the toying around in the previous episodes. But that doesnt make it impossible of course that he planned the logic error...

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Battler had to protect the story from Erika, so he couldn't go and use that trick that handed her such a huge hint on Beato's nature so early on while Beato was unaware of the truth about herself. He previously said he had hope Beato would remember. Let's not cut that part. It was pretty important for him. It was the miracle he hoped for.
The story wasn't to just give Beato a happy tale but to prove he had understood her and how magic works. It's said over and over.

yes yes, I know he says that. Actually I also thought about it if he the logic error occur on purpose at the beginning, but I threw that idea away because of this: he wrote dawn BEFORE he knew Beato didnt have her memories. Unless we want to say the whole episode 6 was a lie from start to finish (with him acting like sh*** towards Beato as well) it doesnt work. And I somehow could accept such a gigantic lie - i know at least one time he lied - IF this had a purpose. But him crying for Beato alone in Kinzos room etc. - thats just too much.
The only solution I find plausible is that he did let the logic error happen, but that would mean it wasnt really the way he planned dawn to be at the beginning...

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Also let's us not be tricked by confusing fantasy and Meta. Meta Battler never asked how he would be left free to escape and he never truly was closed in the room. It was fantasy Battler who was closed in the room and that meet fantasy Kanon who remained in the room with a collar tied around his neck.

That's fantasyBattler not MetaBattler. The one writing the story is MetaBattler who was currently marrying Erika and wasn't trapped in the room tearing away his fingernails.

Ok, HERE I completely disagree. You answer even a bit later that the line between meta and game-board isnt clear-cut. Actually there were several! times when the meta-Beato/Battler and co interact with the game board. End of Episode 2, End of Episode 4 (battle in the rose garden), Gaap, Ronove immediately jump from game-board to meta-world and Erika also talks to Meta-Battler as her piece. Also Ange in Episode 8 is sometimes the player, sometimes the piece.

And with this Im actually almost 100% sure that its meta-battler that is in the room - the reason he cant get out is because his piece cant get out. its a form of hell Bern and Lambda also experienced. what is in the room is his "soul" and not the body of meta-battler. the manga says so explicitly. of course thats somewhat a different layer, cause in the looked-room time is flowing differently from the game-board, as Kanon states. he IS in this locked room as the game-master (explicitly shown in the manga/described in the VN), i.e. his soul is. btw - theres a really easy way to confirm that by looking at his clothes XD

meaning - the most important argument still stands


And meta-battler has all the nice thoughts about what happened in prime after what was shown in the tea-party episode 7. By the way you remember my theory about his comments not being good with chain-locks etc, right? He also says after the family gathering he was dozing off. Im pretty sure that refers to him getting drunk on alcohol as its shown several times on the game-board. If we go by what episode 5 says about how he believed in something and had to give up on this belief (COULD refer to Battler, on this part Im less sure), Id think Sayo met him, told him everyone was dead or something, he didnt believe her at first and didnt take the result too well, so that afterwards he drank alcohol to forget about his worries (same habbit Kinzo has- mentioned in ep 2/3). After that follows what I described earlier. Anyways, to answer the last part..

it IS meta-battler that asks Beato how she would help him get out of the room - when Beato challenges Erika in the chapel he asks her that.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Umineko is all a jump between the mystery, the fantasy and the meta. In Ep 2 there's even a scene where PieceBattler says the words MetaBattler wanted to say and in Ep 5 Erika breaks the wall between mystery and meta by talking to Bern while everyone was having breakfast (due to this and to other stuffs is possible to speculate that Erika was just insane and paranoid and that's why she could kill people in ep 6).

Yep, I agree that the line between meta and game-board arent clear.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

In Umineko existences can be re-modelled. We see that Yasu changes the shape of her own world so that Gaap stop being Beatrice and becomes Beatrice's friend and then Beatrice becomes the one who loves Battler and then Beatrice changes look and then in her mind Beatrice, which was a dear friend, becomes someone who tortures her.

The world could have been altered again to make possible for Bern to be Ikuko's cat. After all that's what writers can do when playing with characters.

Yes, but that confirms more or less what I said

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Actually there were hints for that and since in the VN it was never said she found the confession it was also the best explanation for how certain details could be known as it seemed hard to believe in such situation Battler and Sayo had sat up together and she had told him of how she pranked Berune or how she had met Gaap. We the confession in her hands though, even if some hints remain, Sayo's survival isn't necessary anymore.
Mind you, the manga hinted that the bottle was found much time after Battler started living with her. Unless beaches are kept dirty or are rather desert if this was true someone else should have found the bottle prior to her.

Well, since the story is a book that includes the Prime-truth, I dont think there was ever a reason to ask "who knows what" in the first place...Your last bit is a bit strange...Im saying its weird how she found the bottle. Its just weird XD I dont have an explanation thats why I want more depth for Ikukos character...

Originally Posted by jjblue1

We don't know to what that ending refers. The game was left suspended due to the situation. As soon as they had dealt with Erika Beato and Battler might have resumed it for their own personal pleasure.
Or the sentence can refers to Bern's plans for the next game, the one in which Lion's exist (not the play Ange sees).
With lack of details we can't really say, even though considering the setting in which it's given I'll think it refers more to what Bern is planning to do than to Ep 6... even though very likely in Ep 6 mystery version everyone died just the same.
After all Will read the full tale (I guess Bern managed to steal the tale that was meant for Beato only).

We can't really say that it surely refers to Prime (especially with Ryukishi saying the ending is meant to be the magic one) so it's up to speculation.

No, we cant be sure. But its repeated over and over and over again, that I find it hard to believe that it refers to a game-board. The explanations arent really convincing imo. cause there was never anything that hinted at them resuming the game board, quite the contrary, nor does a red-truth ever refer to a "what-if"-situation , so no matter what battlers intentions were for the 6th game-board, if he planned to end it with the logic error or if he wrote the mystery with the intention of having everyone killed - the fact is that the game was abandoned and time stopped. the red truth is out of place here.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Battler sees Sayo, but calles him\her Shannon.
Battler calls Shannon "she".
Battler calls Kanon "he".

So what? Did he lie? As you say, HE SAD IT IN RED.

You are aware aren't you that Sayo is also called Shannon? That this is her blessed name?
And that he is told to call her as such and she never told him she's named Sayo?
Are you lying if you call me jjblue1? If you're referring to me as such? That's my nick and the nick you're supposed to use to call me.
Also please be aware that you're reading a translation. In Japanese (and in other languages) there's no need to use he and she for each damn sentence.

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Battler checked only Rudolf's and Kyries corpses. Read the VN please. And. he isn't an esper to confirm dead bodies by sight.

Please do not assume I hadn't read the VN. It's quite rude.
5 bodies are described as in plain sight. Everyone saw them. Now, if you want to see that Rosa, despite having her face smashed, was still alive, be my guest. Battler didn't check her pulse so yes, if Rosa with her face plowed can be alive to you maybe she is.

And treated just the same, the corpses of several people had been laid to rest there. No, had been thrown in there!
I could tell them by their clothes.
......That old bastard and Kyrie-san. ...Krauss oji-san and Rosa oba-san. ......Beyond that, ...Gohda-san and, ...there's still more of them? How many people died.........You're fucking kidding me! I can't even count them on one hand! Damn iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit!!!I didn't know whether it had been one of these gardening tools, which if used for something other than their intended purpose could definitely be wielded with a naked brutality, or whether some horrible tool had been brought in here specifically for this.
......Anyways, .........the bodies which had been tumbled into here, each of them had been given an atrocious makeup.
...It wasn't makeup, ...it was more like..., "their faces had been plowed"...!
Their faces were smashed, forced into an expression that a normal person couldn't make even after death. ...I couldn't tell where the eyes or the noses were, but I could find their mouths...because they were gaping wide, the ridges of their teeth exposed! But their front teeth were missing, and even the cheek that should have covered that was all torn up and exposed! Even as a man, the stylish makeup that I thoughtlessly worried about was all useless...!!

Oh, before saying it's just make up, please hands us hints of how Rosa reached such a level in makeup abilities. Battler saw five bodies (he mentioned them by name) and saw their faces had been plowed. So yes, he saw Rosa's face or what remained of it.

Originally Posted by jTiKey

EP 2 ending is a magic scene. Evil Witch killing Rosa at the end.

EP 3 - Rosa died, not Evil Witch. Are you sure you know Sayotrice? Same stuff here.

EP 4 - easy. Evil witch everywhere.

Yes, I know Sayotrice. Now can you stop implying I hadn't read the VN or the manga? And are you sure that Evil Witch can survive after a spear of the fence pierced Rosa's medulla oblongata?

Originally Posted by jTiKey

It's funny. You write miles of text, but all is just bs, you think is true.

Sorry, I didn't know that if I were to write clipped sentences that go against the VN, the interviews and the manga instead than explaining myself referencing the VN, the interviews and the manga then they would be elevated to the level of red truth. You opened my eyes, it was a earth shattering experience.

Here, I'll amend my error.

Culprit = Sayotrice.

Is it clipped enough?
Ops, too bad, I forgot it had to step over the VN, the manga and the interviews. Well, it'll be for when I'll decide to make my own story instead than solving the one at hands.

Originally Posted by jTiKey

but in general, Ryu meseed up the story starting from EP 6. This isn't a mystery novel. It's just a wannabe. Nice start, horrible ending. A shame he changed the manga plot, I'd still buy the VN story line.

If you want to rewrite Umineko's ending be my guest. Just don't count me among your possible readers.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Levani

GreyZone, I didn't know you were into Umineko fandom too! Awesome...

Actually Umineko is the reason I made an account on animesuki in the first place




So... is my Ikuko=Yasu theory still a possibility?