Character Discussion - Kallen

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Bonzo

Okay, the comic marriage is under construction, but I thought about a little thing....

I can write a short comic about it (1-2 pages) but not now.

It's about a question, a question connected with the original story too...

The farewell dialogue between Ougi and Kallen.

And Kallen has a question for Ougi.

"Ougi-san, when you betrayed zero (turn 19 event), if I had choose to protect him, you would kill me too?"

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. I think that's a reasonable question for Kallen to ask Ougi, and if Ougi has even the slightest bit of testicular fortitude then he'll be up front and tell her the truth. He would tell her that yes they would have shot her, but perhaps he could also apologize for their rash behavior.

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Good question. Totally unrelated question, what's with the ears in the right-side panel?

I think she kinda looks like an elf or a troll or something (I know, I'm terrible )

[Bonzo]

I thought to write a answer like.

"I would save the japan...."

Then a "yes" written with other words, and then, try to imagine Kallen's reaction.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Bonzo

I thought to write a answer like.

"I would save the japan...."

Then a "yes" written with other words, and then, try to imagine Kallen's reaction.

I guess that sounds reasonable. As far as Kallen's reaction, I don't think she would be outright shocked. I guess she might be disappointed or sad and maybe a little surprised.

[incorrupts]

Kay, i shall take part on this.

"Ougi would you shoot me?"
"..Yes."
%$%^% -- punch -- "This is for me bitch. Oh and #$%$% --punchx2-- and this is for Naoto. He says you're an ass."


Yeah.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Kay, i shall take part on this.

"Ougi would you shoot me?"
"..Yes."
%$%^% -- punch -- "This is for me bitch. Oh and #$%$% --punchx2-- and this is for Naoto. He says you're an ass."


Yeah.

Okay, I think I've finally figured out exactly why it is that Ougi is such a douche, why he betrayed Zero, and why he is so universally hated.

All right, we all know that Ougi sounds like Yogi, right? Thus the connection between the two is obvious. But here's the key part, according to Space Ghost, Yogi Bear is Satan. So...

Satan=Yogi=Ougi

So Ougi is Satan. It all makes sense!

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Okay, I think I've finally figured out exactly why it is that Ougi is such a douche, why he betrayed Zero, and why he is so universally hated.

All right, we all know that Ougi sounds like Yogi, right? Thus the connection between the two is obvious. But here's the key part, according to Space Ghost, Yogi Bear is Satan. So...

Satan=Yogi=Ougi

So Ougi is Satan. It all makes sense!

And this is so Kallen-topic-related, it actually hurts.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

And this is so Kallen-topic-related, it actually hurts.

Yeah sorry. I've been looking for an opportunity to use that one.

I guess did deserve an explanation from Ougi, but I can see why they never really talked again after that. Kind of awkward.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Yeah sorry. I've been looking for an opportunity to use that one.

I guess did deserve an explanation from Ougi, but I can see why they never really talked again after that. Kind of awkward.

Well, not really, it was a douche-moment, and that was it. Kallen did not really care about anyone else at that moment, other than meeting Lelouch and getting his reply. She could give a crap about Ougi's brilliant ideas about tits or whatever else, that ran through his mind at that point. {which was Viletta tits and we all know it}

On the other hand, if you want discussion about Ougi nobody, you can to go general-charas discussion, i shall gladly join if it is about him, haha.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Well, not really, it was a douche-moment, and that was it. Kallen did not really care about anyone else at that moment, other than meeting Lelouch and getting his reply. She could give a crap about Ougi's brilliant ideas about tits or whatever else, that ran through his mind at that point. {which was Viletta tits and we all know it}

On the other hand, if you want discussion about Ougi nobody, you can to go general-charas discussion, i shall gladly join if it is about him, haha.

Too true. And conversation moved.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Bonzo

I thought to write a answer like.

"I would save the japan...."

Then a "yes" written with other words, and then, try to imagine Kallen's reaction.

The answer is an obvious "Yes."

I would imagine that Kallen's eyes would widen slightly at the admission, but I don't think she would be very surprised, or necessarily unleash her classic style of rage on Ohgi. I think she would just quietly thank Ohgi for his honesty, turn away, and leave, and any protests or excuses from Ohgi would be met with the response that Lelouch never made excuses for his actions, nor did he feel any desire for revenge when he was betrayed by someone he had already been decieving, because he simply accepted that he had done something to hurt the other person, and knew that whatever hatred they felt, or revenge they sought was justified and was prepared to live with his sins (until the last arc, of course).

I think she would say that the difference between Ohgi and Lelouch (aside from competence) was that Lelouch knew and accepted that he was doing evil things, while Ohgi and the others were trying to weasel their way out of having to look at themselves as anything less than paragons of righteousness.

Either this, or possibly whispering that she is at peace with Ohgi's actions (though still hurt by them), and that she isn't the one he needs to be apologising to. She would of course, be implying that it will be Naoto and her mother that Ohgi will need to apologize to in the afterlife.

[Bonzo]

Or in the change of a lived Lelouch:

Kallen: "you said the truth, but always digressing with the words"

Ougi: "I was sure you never did it"

Kallen: "how could you be sure?"

Ougi: "zero used you like all us..."

Kallen: "heh...you thought it by suppositions, without the certainty, instead, zero had always the certainty and the consequences of his auctions on his shoulders!
Ougi-san, at despite of you, I really trust of Lelouch, because I knew he...wanted put me away from the conflict"

Ougi: "are you really sure about it?"

Kallen: "yes, because he lied me, to oblige me to betray him too and...."

Ougi: "what is it?"

Kallen: "Lelouch success to escape thanks to Rolo, maybe if you killed him that time...we were dead too."

Ougi: "how you can say it?"

Kallen: "anya, outside the ikaruga on her knightmare had a fleija bomb, I think....if lelouch was dead, after Schneizel gone away...."

Ougi: "....................."

Kallen :"and considering another thing...at your death, my brother would have reprimanded you VERY severely."

Ougi: "where you will go now?"

Kallen: "in a far place, where it will be very hard somebody able to recon us"

Ougi: "do you will return in Japan a day?"

Kallen: "I haven't nobody here by now and there're too much painful memories in this place..."

Ougi: "I see."

Kallen: "Ougi-sa....Mr. Kaname, I'll tell you farewell in the airport, take care of your family"

Ougi: "I do...."

[Nobodyman9]

^Pretty good. I feel kind of iffy about you making up that little bit with Anya and the Fleija, but otherwise it was good.

[Betteroffer]

His name is actually Kaname Ohgi. As I understand it Ohgi/Ougi or however you spell it is actually his last name. As for Kallen trying to add a level of distance between them by switching to a more formal way to address him, she could use his title in the Black Knights (I think it was Deputy Commander, though it may have been raised to Commander).

Since in your story the BK have a tape of Schneizel planning to kill them and their families on Horai, and he actually shot a FLEIJA at Horai, then I think they are well beyond the "Schneizel might have..." point. It was a matter of when he would kill them, not if.

[Bonzo]

In the Italian subtitles his name was Ougi (for kaname you right, I wrong letter ^^'), you right about the black knight title, but in my theory the dialogue happen in the war-after, when they're both civilians.

I used that "idea" because in the episode 19, Schneizel or Diethard speak about the mordred was equipped with a fleija bomb.
And a dialogue about a survived Lelouch, when Schneizel had the idea to shot freya everywhere, however, in the original anime ha had the same project, because in the episode with fleija first test, he thought already about his damocles, then to kill the black knight could to be a priority target, lelouch dead or not.

Schneizel first plan was to take distance with the damocles and fire a fleija for to delete the BK and all lelouch army in a single surprise attack, but Cornelia ruined all, then to kill all horai people was a diversion to cut the self-control of his enemies, a enemy upset is a vulnerable enemy.

[kir44n]

2 Years. 2 Years I have searched at cons, and still C.C. merchandise greatly outnumbers Kallen -_- . It's depressing, you know? Unless they do more of the show or spinoffs however, I think the paraphenelia is probably going to dry up in short order too. O well.

At least I saw more Kallen Cosplay @ Otakon than C.C. By women too, no men XD

[bladeofdarkness]

transfered from romance thread

Originally Posted by kir44n

I do believe she would discard Justice for her goals of a free Japan. Remember, the act of terrorism we witnessed her partake of at the beginning of the show? This already shows her sense of justice only existed when it was convenient.

Justice implies that ones actions are "Just". Using a chemical weapon to kill civilians, even under a Just cause, becomes injustice itself.

You rightly point out she'd already resolved to kill herself with him, and that the response was most likely a wish to hear the words from his mouth. Again though, the point I am attempting to make is that her loyalty to him could not simply be given to justice alone ; especially as that Justice is not exactly the most fitting adjective to try to attribute to Kallen

wait...what ?
kallen was the one who DIDNT agree to use it
the other guy she was with suggested it, and she flat out refused to consider it because it would mean a massacre

and she makes it perfectly clear in talking with zero in ep 13 that she does what she does FOR JUSTICE
and that she does it because she believes that its the right path to take

[kir44n]

A question then. Would you think her any less compliciit in the deaths of any civilians should they use the weapon against her wishes? True, she would be against it, but her hands would still be tainted in the blood of the innocent killed by the unjust act.

There is also the accidental death of the civilians from the avalanche caused by Gurren. She had no idea that it would occur, but ignorance beforehand, nor the guilt felt absolve her of her participation in that act. Would she have still committed herself to following the plan, even if she knew of the deaths that would occur for it? I think she would, but you may feel different as well.

And while she does make that statement near the beginning, recall too that Suzaku claims simiilar ideals, even knowing in his heart how hollow they sound to him for killing his Father.

An idea to mull over

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

transfered from romance thread



wait...what ?
kallen was the one who DIDNT agree to use it
the other guy she was with suggested it, and she flat out refused to consider it because it would mean a massacre

and she makes it perfectly clear in talking with zero in ep 13 that she does what she does FOR JUSTICE
and that she does it because she believes that its the right path to take

That does not mean it is right you know. I mean, i have seen you judging Lelouch about it, while he thinks he does it for "world peace" {his whole soldiers massacre} but suddenly for Kallen, it is alright? Hum, and then you were accusing us for double standards blade. Now, this is double standards.

Anyway, the point is, Kallen can kill people. She can even kill innocent ones, if the case requires that. She is trying to avoid it though whenever possible.

[bladeofdarkness]

i dont see how its double standards to say kallen did what she believed was for justice even if she didnt like the means to achieve it
i have judged lelouch about his actions when he takes them despite not really needing to

i think you might be missing the point of what lelouch's action to achieve his ultimate plan were
its not that he did "some things that could be considered unjust by some, from a certain perspective"
he purposely did things BECAUSE they were unjust, for the purpose of being SEEN as an unjust ass
he was acting as monstrously as possible for the sake of his plan, because that was what his plan called for (to be hated by all)
and it was unnecessary to do all those things
he CHOSE to do them because Z-R was what HE wanted to do

its not like stopping shnizel was the GOAL of Z-R, it was just a BY PRODUCT of it
and i dare say that taking on shnizel WITHOUT having to fight the entire world AT THE SAME TIME, would have been far easier

lelouch took actions that were completely unjust, for no other reason then because it was what HE wanted to do (rather then just sign a peace treaty with the UFN)
and hence, i call his actions unjust, because his PLAN is inherently unjust (unnecessary, based entirely on deception, and causes the loss of countless lives)

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

i dont see how its double standards to say kallen did what she believed was for justice even if she didnt like the means to achieve it
i have judged lelouch about his actions when he takes them despite not really needing to

i think you might be missing the point of what lelouch's action to achieve his ultimate plan were
its not that he did "some things that could be considered unjust by some, from a certain perspective"
he purposely did things BECAUSE they were unjust, for the purpose of being SEEN as an unjust ass
he was acting as monstrously as possible for the sake of his plan, because that was what his plan called for (to be hated by all)

its not like stopping shnizel was the GOAL of Z-R, it was just a BY PRODUCT of it
and i dare say that taking on shnizel WITHOUT having to fight the entire world AT THE SAME TIME, would have been far easier

lelouch took actions that were completely unjust, for no other reason then because it was what HE wanted to do (rather then just sign a peace treaty with the UFN)
and hence, i call his actions unjust, because his PLAN is inherently unjust (unnecessary, based entirely on deception, and causes the loss of countless lives)

No, you just missing the point. Whenever innocent people are involved, it is un-just by default. Why should they get dragged down to each one's "idea of justice"? And this is, what applies in both of the situations.
But anyway, this is gonna get into six-cyclce-carousel, so yeah. I will leave it there.

p.s those actions, still will not stop me from liking Kallen for other reasons.