Character Discussion - Lelouch

[HollowScar]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

the GOD aspect of it is what i dont get
anyone can choose to act as either good or bad
what about THAT makes him anything other then human

Well, thanks to everyone for complementing my comments. I really appreciate your warm welcome.

Anyways, Lulu never wanted to be God, and never looked at it that way either. At the beginning, he wanted a world where his sister could live peacefully. Then he wanted to take down his father, for his wickedness, and for that he had to confront Britannian monarchy. Like Light, he chose to wipe out certain people that became a barrier in his way, but these people also changed his views of them. He did kill Clovis early on, and I don't know why he did it. He also killed indirectly and directly some casualties including some guards here and there. These are his sins for which he may have felt guilt, but which also led him to advance at a rapid pace. He could have been an insane lunatic, but Euphemia's good ambition changed him, until he geassed her by mistake. Same goes towards Shirley who stood by him, with so many of his flaws, that he jumped over a building just to save her, when she was close to falling. Had Suzaku not been there, Lulu would have been dead along with his lover, leaving his sister behind. Kallen confronted him when he was about to give up, and encouraged him to go on. Rolo, his assigned brother, chose to save Lelouch when he gave up on life, and was shunned by the Black Knights, even though Lelouch openly claimed to kill him if he got the opportunity. These are little people that made a difference in Lelouch. He was flawed, and could have been out of the game much earlier than Light Yagami, but it was his friends (who he had sympathy for) that rescued him. He may seem like an ass, and he does have an unfriendly tone with C.C. in the first season, but he also rescued her from Mao, and his father. He saved her life, and took care of her. This is what makes him a human, and not some sociopath. His only limitation was that he could not outdo the system, and once he got his geass, he chose to act, and do something, that an average person would never consider doing, especially not for the greater good.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by HollowScar

Well, thanks to everyone for complementing my comments. I really appreciate your warm welcome.

Anyways, Lulu never wanted to be God, and never looked at it that way either. At the beginning, he wanted a world where his sister could live peacefully. Then he wanted to take down his father, for his wickedness, and for that he had to confront Britannian monarchy. Like Light, he chose to wipe out certain people that became a barrier in his way, but these people also changed his views of them. He did kill Clovis early on, and I don't know why he did it. He also killed indirectly and directly some casualties including some guards here and there. These are his sins for which he may have felt guilt, but which also led him to advance at a rapid pace. He could have been an insane lunatic, but Euphemia's good ambition changed him, until he geassed her by mistake. Same goes towards Shirley who stood by him, with so many of his flaws, that he jumped over a building just to save her, when she was close to falling. Had Suzaku not been there, Lulu would have been dead along with sheirly, leaving his sister behind. Kallen confronted him when he was about to give up, and encouraged him to go on. Rolo, his assigned brother, chose to save Lelouch when he gave up on life, and was shunned by the Black Knights, even though Lelouch openly claimed to kill him if he got the opportunity. These are little people that made a difference in Lelouch. He was flawed, and could have been out of the game much earlier than Light Yagami, but it was his friends (who he had sympathy for) that rescued him. He may seem like an ass, and he does have an unfriendly tone with C.C. in the first season, but he also rescued her from Mao, and his father. He saved her life, and took care of her. This is what makes him a human, and not some sociopath. His only limitation was that he could not outdo the system, and once he got his geass, he chose to act, and do something, that an average person would never consider doing, especially not for the greater good.

you kind of missed the point i was making
Neku was the one who claimed he was like a god because of his ability to be either good or evil
and if that doesnt make sense to you, then you are not alone, because i dont get it either
thats what i was asking him

as for the bolded part...
you can have your opinions, but its not confirmed

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

as for the bolded part...
you can have your opinions, but its not confirmed

What's not confirmed? That Lelouch and Shirley wouldn't have survived a fall from a tall building?

[Neku]

Originally Posted by HollowScar

Anyways, Lulu never wanted to be God, and never looked at it that way either.

As opposed to Light, yes, Lu never thought of that; becoming God.
He's a definite human, it's the things he does - manipulating people's beliefs, the power of his Geass (although its powers rebounded back at him and caused the unintentional massacre), generally, the way he seems to control everything; from letting people love him so much and making them hate him to a maximum limit, and one of his last words "I destroy worlds, create worlds" (which technically, he did) - I cannot not proclaim he's godly in a sense.

Basically, it's just a perspective of mine.
Anyways, you make another nice post yet again

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

What's not confirmed? That Lelouch and Shirley wouldn't have survived a fall from a tall building?

read his version of it

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

read his version of it

I did. I'm guessing that you were trying to say is that it's not confirmed that Lelouch cared enough about Shirley to risk his own life.

...Well, unless he was 100% sure that Suzaku would grab him then I'd have to say that's a pretty hard case to argue.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

I did. I'm guessing that you were trying to say is that it's not confirmed that Lelouch cared enough about Shirley to risk his own life.

...Well, unless he was 100% sure that Suzaku would grab him then I'd have to say that's a pretty hard case to argue.

no...
i implayed that its not confirmed that she was his "lover"
that he would risk (or possibly even give) his life to save her's goes without saying

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

no...
i implayed that its not confirmed that she was his "lover"
that he would risk (or possibly even give) his life to save her's goes without saying

Where does HollowScar say that she was his lover? I think he implied that Shirley was important to him, but I didn't see anything beyond that.

[Meatrose]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Where does HollowScar say that she was his lover? I think he implied that Shirley was important to him, but I didn't see anything beyond that.

Yeah well, blade edited the bolded part but if you look at the original post (not the quote) you'll see what he's talking about.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

1. Grab Nina
2. Make more FLEIJA
3. Profit.

Damocles would need some considerably menacing upgrades before anyone facing it would be justified in doing what Lelouch did.

I have actually been thinking over some things that could be done to make Damocles a more self-contained powerhouse.

1. More points on the fortress that can fire FLEIJA that do not have a long reload time.
2. A guided means of firing the FLEIJA, namely advanced missles that could breach most conventional missle defense systems.
3. The shield itself should be able to use the Albion's feather shot.
4. An advanced long range Gefjun based device to neutralize any hostile sakuradite powered craft or weapon that approaches it, thus making the copy-FLEIJA-and-shoot-Schneizel-down-strategy useless.
5. More conventional weapons on the fortress.
6. An elite force of KMF pilots inside.

Here's my idea\

Throw out the last thirteen episodes. They suck, most of them are full of bad dialogue and worthless plot lines. I mean Charles goes from a fairly hilarious meglomaniac dictator to just some insane idiot who cares more about the fact that his brother lied about shooting his beloved wife, than actually shooting his beloved wife. Tokyo is pretty much destroyed and its perfectly fine in the epilouge.

I mean I can find no reason for several characters actions (Charles, Schneizel, Lelouch, and Nunnaly) other than to write off their actions as insanity brought by genetics.

Cornelia is shot because she refuses to allow a massacre when she herself massacred people just to lure out Zero.

I would instead have Charles ask for ultimate power, and to escape the World of C with Marianne brining the final battle between the main Britannia army lead by Charles and Marianne in a Gawain Kai, against the UFN and a rebel Britannia army lead by Lelouch, and Schneizel. That way you don't throw the Knights of the Round (and Britannia itself) under a bus just so Suzaku and Kallen can go one on one.

[bladeofdarkness]

cornellia massacred a few thousend- tens of thousends at most
killing a billion people is slightly different

but other then that, i mostly agree with your points
the last two arcs were very lacking

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Meatrose

Yeah well, blade edited the bolded part but if you look at the original post (not the quote) you'll see what he's talking about.

Ugh. All right, yeah, I see what you're talking about now.

DON'T CHANGE QUOTES PEOPLE!!!

[HollowScar]

Well, there is no clear proof of how much Lelouch loved Shirley, but he was still affectionate towards her. He did feel bad when she died, and was more caring towards her, for someone who barely had anything to do with his work. For example, C.C. was important as she gave him his Geass, and Kallen is a part of his organization. Shirley was just someone that incidentally came in his path, and has been treated well by Lelouch. If Lelouch wanted, he could have geassed her to death, but he did not do so. He learned trustworthiness from her, and also cared for her. Unlike Light who treated Misa like crap, the relationship between Lelouch and Shirley would have been a beautiful one, if the writers cared to keep them alive, and take them to that direction. Also note that, Lelouch's first flashback before death was, about the kiss between Shirley and him, giving us viewers the notion, that she was definitely someone close to him, and someone who left a lasting impression on him.

Here's a quote dedicated to the flashback of Shirley, Lelouch had,

"In the end, it's not going to matter how many breaths you took, but how many moments took your breath away".
- shing xiong

Anyways, i had to skip a lot of posts as I was reading many of them. Interesting, how much of an impact Code Geass had on us. The only other anime that I can think of that had many similarities with his one, is Death note. I just of they make more animes like this, which are intelligent, and also has suspense. Thank you to everyone for contributing.

[Grey Dawn]

Originally Posted by HollowScar

Well, there is no clear proof of how much Lelouch loved Shirley, but he was still affectionate towards her.

Shirley was just someone that incidentally came in his path, and has been treated well by Lelouch. If Lelouch wanted, he could have geassed her to death, but he did not do so. He learned trustworthiness from her, and also cared for her.

Uhh, feel like interjecting here, Lelouch's involvement with Shirley was heavily involved with guilt. It's not the only reason, but it should be remembered when discussing their relationship.

Also, I don't think Lelouch learned trustworthiness at all. He spent his life decieving the people closest to him right to the end.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Here's my idea\

Throw out the last thirteen episodes. They suck, most of them are full of bad dialogue and worthless plot lines. I mean Charles goes from a fairly hilarious meglomaniac dictator to just some insane idiot who cares more about the fact that his brother lied about shooting his beloved wife, than actually shooting his beloved wife. Tokyo is pretty much destroyed and its perfectly fine in the epilouge.

I mean I can find no reason for several characters actions (Charles, Schneizel, Lelouch, and Nunnaly) other than to write off their actions as insanity brought by genetics.

Cornelia is shot because she refuses to allow a massacre when she herself massacred people just to lure out Zero.

I would instead have Charles ask for ultimate power, and to escape the World of C with Marianne brining the final battle between the main Britannia army lead by Charles and Marianne in a Gawain Kai, against the UFN and a rebel Britannia army lead by Lelouch, and Schneizel. That way you don't throw the Knights of the Round (and Britannia itself) under a bus just so Suzaku and Kallen can go one on one.

It was probably the fact that Schneizel was just as willing to vaporize Britannians as non-Britannians that set Cornelia off. Other than that, they just wanted to pile as many "OMG-Schneizel-really-IS-a-bad-guy!" moments into the show to justify him apparently being worse than Lelouch.

I would recommend the fanfiction Code Geass Megiddo, as it can only be described as "R2 done right." Schneizel blows up Japan in the prologue, killing over 130 million people and essentially wiping out the entire Japanese race. Beyond that, Suzaku isn't pussyfooting around with his Knight Templar attitude; he tells Kallen to her face that peace under Britannian rule is "Peace, just the same."

I've been speaking with the author, and he has actually put a believable theory together that explains a great deal of the Charles/Marianne/V.V. coverup and how Charles was actually doing all he could to protect Lelouch and Nunally by sending them away to Japan, and why he couldn't retaliate against V.V. so easily, but was forced to maintain the deception. He admittedly can't justify everything, and professes to hate R2 himself, but he has put a lot of things in an interesting context.

He actually makes Gino likeable. I'm not making this up.

[Revolutionist]

Charred that idea of yours is awesome. I certainly would've loved to see Charles commanding a huge ass fleet and Marianne raping the UFN in some gar knightmare. Then have Lelouch and Schneizel "rescue" the UFN with their own Britannian faction army.

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Here's my idea\

Throw out the last thirteen episodes. They suck, most of them are full of bad dialogue and worthless plot lines. I mean Charles goes from a fairly hilarious meglomaniac dictator to just some insane idiot who cares more about the fact that his brother lied about shooting his beloved wife, than actually shooting his beloved wife. Tokyo is pretty much destroyed and its perfectly fine in the epilouge.

I mean I can find no reason for several characters actions (Charles, Schneizel, Lelouch, and Nunnaly) other than to write off their actions as insanity brought by genetics.

Cornelia is shot because she refuses to allow a massacre when she herself massacred people just to lure out Zero.

I would instead have Charles ask for ultimate power, and to escape the World of C with Marianne brining the final battle between the main Britannia army lead by Charles and Marianne in a Gawain Kai, against the UFN and a rebel Britannia army lead by Lelouch, and Schneizel. That way you don't throw the Knights of the Round (and Britannia itself) under a bus just so Suzaku and Kallen can go one on one.

That would actually be a pretty good idea.

Suzaku and Kallen, united at long last.

or do they..?

Well, if they did, then the battle is already won.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Here's my idea\

Throw out the last thirteen episodes. They suck, most of them are full of bad dialogue and worthless plot lines. I mean Charles goes from a fairly hilarious meglomaniac dictator to just some insane idiot who cares more about the fact that his brother lied about shooting his beloved wife, than actually shooting his beloved wife. Tokyo is pretty much destroyed and its perfectly fine in the epilouge.

I mean I can find no reason for several characters actions (Charles, Schneizel, Lelouch, and Nunnaly) other than to write off their actions as insanity brought by genetics.

Cornelia is shot because she refuses to allow a massacre when she herself massacred people just to lure out Zero.

I would instead have Charles ask for ultimate power, and to escape the World of C with Marianne brining the final battle between the main Britannia army lead by Charles and Marianne in a Gawain Kai, against the UFN and a rebel Britannia army lead by Lelouch, and Schneizel. That way you don't throw the Knights of the Round (and Britannia itself) under a bus just so Suzaku and Kallen can go one on one.

...Personally, I'd say the first 13 episodes of R2 were crappier. So I'd pretty much have to flat out disagree with all of this. Sure, the true motives, etc. of characters like Charles/Marianne/etc. who were the main focus of the latter half may not have been conveyed particularly effectively, but the core content itself had been built up since the very start of the series: Charles wasn't a tyrannical Emperor (he was a disillusioned one), Marianne wasn't a tragic and helpless victim. And Lelouch could simply not have been Lelouch without his selfish, sacrificial death. From his beginning embodying the spirit of destruction, it was his fate to destroy the world by destroying himself.

Originally Posted by Grey Dawn

Uhh, feel like interjecting here, Lelouch's involvement with Shirley was heavily involved with guilt. It's not the only reason, but it should be remembered when discussing their relationship.

Also, I don't think Lelouch learned trustworthiness at all. He spent his life decieving the people closest to him right to the end.

This is an ages old discussion, but I figure now's a good a time as any to bring it up again. What exactly of any of Lelouch's interactions with Shirley could be attributed to guilt?

In the first place, what does Lelouch have to feel guilty about? Let us say, the death of her father. Unfortunately, it is only possible for Lelouch to feel guilty about that so long as Shirley remains observably affected by said loss. After Stage 14, by Shirley's own will and faith in the future, that is erased.

How about the loss of Shirley's memories? Unfortunately, himself having caused that precisely out of guilt for her, it doesn't quite make sense for him to feel guilt having done so (he wiped her memories precisely to prevent pain for her; so long as he believed that to be serving its purpose, he could not feel guilt over having done it in the first place).

Her death? Well, there's no longer any room for 'involvement' afterwards. Besides, though, Lelouch's immediate reaction was anything but guilty.

The fact is, so long as Shirley remained a happy person who loved the world and believed in tomorrow, Lelouch could not feel guilt over her. What he could feel was loneliness. You can say, in fact, that guilt played a principal role in Lelouch's interactions with Shirley, but that role was in pushing him away from her. Lelouch, believing that Shirley could not retain her happiness by his side, pushed her away half-heartedly out of guilt. Shirley's ability to get through to him despite this continual separation, however, is a testament to how much she means to him.

That is to say: none of Lelouch's 'involvement' with Shirley can be attributed to guilt. At all. Believing himself to be something which hurts her, guilt was always pushing Lelouch away. It was his genuine appreciation and attraction to her that motivated him in all their rare but meaningful interactions.

[yvj]

Revive the romance thread folks if you want to go down that route.

[kir44n]

I'd argue that it still came down to guilt. Let's say one day you ran over a dog. You'd feel guilty wouldn't you? Now, lets say the owner told you he was tired of that dog anyways. Would you still feel guilty, or not? If you felt guilt over just killing someone elses property, then no, the guilt would be gone. But if you felt guilty over killing the dog, then you'd still feel guilty, even if the owner absolved you.

The question isn't whether or not Lelouch should feel guilty over what's happened to Shirley because of his actions, is whether or not he does feel guilty. And a good number of people say "Yes, he's primarily motivated by guilt".

It may have started with her dad, but then events continued to snowball into one another creating a mass of guilt-tripping drama..