Abilities and Technologies: Speculation based on Science, Metaphysics, and Magic

[tsunade666]

AIM is still a particle energy but its a left over energy. Its a passive energy that esper emits. They can't control AIM release.

as for Hyouka having emotions and act like human, because she is the combination of different AIM. which is why she acts like human when in face of eminent death. Close contact to IB that threatens to kill her, gives her sentience to evade or fight back.

[LevelSeven]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

AIM is still a particle energy but its a left over energy. Its a passive energy that esper emits. They can't control AIM release.

afterall, the label AIM means !an involuntary movement"

as for Hyouka having emotions and act like human, because she is the combination of different AIM. which is why she acts like human when in face of eminent death. Close contact to IB that threatens to kill her, gives her sentience to evade or fight back.

i remember somewhere to have read the hyouka only started to "exist" after IB entered AC, only than she got the "fear to die" which is a needed component for every existence in order to be labelled as "living" (at least as far as the LN goes)...

[tsunade666]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

afterall, the label AIM means !an involuntary movement"

i remember somewhere to have read the hyouka only started to "exist" after IB entered AC, only than she got the "fear to die" which is a needed component for every existence in order to be labelled as "living" (at least as far as the LN goes)...

For me Hyouka only gain sentience when it got in contact or got near IB. Its the fear of death that gave life but before that happen. I think it can be considered "alive" in a sense that it doesn't want to "die" and that "fear" gave birth to "thinking or sentience" but before you even got fear of death. Shouldn't you be alive first?

[LevelSeven]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

For me Hyouka only gain sentience when it got in contact or got near IB. Its the fear of death that gave life but before that happen. I think it can be considered "alive" in a sense that it doesn't want to "die" and that "fear" gave birth to "thinking or sentience" but before you even got fear of death. Shouldn't you be alive first?

i agree, this was how it was described in the novel...

BIB: i also think that "being alive" comes before "feeling something", as example, i doubt that plants "feel fear" but they are still alive, "having fear of death" doesnt seem to be a necassery part in order to be considered alive (im sure there are people who are born different (brain-wise), this allows them to not feel anything if it comes to negative things (like death/torture/etc), but they are obviously alive...)
btw, this is how i see it in RL, it seems like in toaru-verse you need to fear death in order to be considered alive in the first place :/

[Doom_Paperclip]

There seem to be a lot of misunderstandings here about really basic TAMNI lore. It would take a ton of effort to correct everyone one by one, so I'll just write some TAMNI 101.

Spoiler for Lesson 1: Quantum Physics and how Espers Work:

According to the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum physics, everything exists as a superimposition of several possible states, described by a wave function. The act of observation causes the function to collapse into only one of those possible states.

Espers have the power to consistently make the wave function collapse into the state they desire. In quantum physics, there are very few things with an absolutely 0% chance of happening. There is always a chance of lightning shooting out of your hand when you point at someone, but it is infinitesimally small, to the point where you're likelier to win the grand prize of every lottery in the world. However, an electromaster can take that infinitesimally small chance and make it happen 100% of the time. The Personal Reality they have lets them observe the universe through a lens that forces the wave function to collapse in highly improbable ways.

Esper powers don't require any power from the user in and of themselves. They don't have to refine their life force into mana or anything. The energy manifested through their powers comes from atoms in the environment, as described by the laws of physics. However, it seems that to control their powers, they need to make many calculations, which can produce mental strain. As far as sci-fi goes, this is pretty hard physics. The only unrealistic part is the ability to intentionally collapse the wave function in disregard of normal probability, which is something impossible in real life. Everything else is legit.

Spoiler for Lesson 2: AIM and Kazakiri:

AIM stands for An Involuntary Movement. Espers need precise calculations to control their power, but their powers are always active, even when they're not being controlled consciously. The results are miniscule, unobservable without precision equipment, but they are there. An electromaster always emits a weak electric field, an aero hand causes small fluctuations in the air around them ect...

In this regard, AIM is completely different from mana. It has to be said again, AIM is not the science equivalent of mana. Mana is needed to cast magic. You could say it is the "cause" of magic. AIM is not needed to use Esper powers, it is the byproduct of having an Esper power, an "effect" of Espers powers, rather than a "cause". AIM is not a uniform substance used by Espers to fuel their powers, but a subconscious emission that is different for each Esper. Even through both are AIM, the AIM of Misaka and that of Accelerator are almost completely different.

When you think of a computer, you tend to think of a PC based on semiconductor technology, running on electric power, but that's not the only possible way to make one. Technically speaking, you can build a computer out of anything as long as it can record and process information. Even though every Esper has their own unique AIM emission, the sum of all those fields creates a medium that can be manipulated in such a way. Kazakiri Hyouka can be thought as something similar to an artificial intelligence. The AIM fields are the medium in which the information pertaining to her is recorded and processed. It's not a perfect analogy, but it will do.

Kazakiri is not an output point like Rensa. Rensa doesn't draw in AIM of her target Esper, which alone would give her very little power, she draws in Esper's power itself by replicating their body's structure. Kazakiri does none of that. She simply manipulates the AIM fields in virtue of being made of them, as natural as moving an arm or a leg.

Spoiler for Lesson 3: Five Overs:

Five Overs are machines meant to exceed the powers of a level five without actually using any Esper powers. The model case Railgun, for instance, uses really powerful, really technologically advanced, yet ultimately mundane, electromagnets to reproduce Misaka's railgun. No AIM or Personal Realities involved.

The mental out five over didn't need Misaki's power, just the data on how she used it. Being able to manipulate the brain is useless if you don't know how to do it to get someone to do what you want, but the scientists who built it couldn't figure out how. They needed Misaki's data as an actual example of how to do it, so it could be copied and used by the five over, but once obtained, Misaki herself wouldn't be needed anymore.

With the basics out of the way, I can now do some actual speculation. I agree that Personal Realities come from the soul. The brain is needed to control the power, but Accelerator could manifest his wings even when brain damaged without network support. Plus, as pointed out earlier, animals can't seem to become Espers, regardless of intelligence.

That said, the soul is not life force. Again, I deny that AIM is similar to mana in any way.

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

true...
but, if majins can do whhat NT9-othinus did than she would add a layer to the world and AC would vanish (together with espers and AIM) but it we dont know exactly if it could interefere,
i think that it wouldnt...50%-othinus destroyed IT with her success-side, the other majins are stronger than 100%-success othinus...

Were the other Magic Gods really any stronger than Othinus, though? Sure, Othinus didn't notice them hiding in their true Gremlin phase, but that's an issue of perception, not power.

Really, we've seen them do very little before they were de-powered, but nothing to suggest they could do anything that Othinus could not. The only way they seem to be superior to Othinus in the slightest way is that they don't need a tool like Gungnir to control their possibilities.

we dont know if he needed science, aleister chosed it because he wanted something different which couldnt be reached via magic...im not sure if esper-powers/PRs are the thing which he wanted :/

It seems pretty clear he ultimately wants to summon Aiwass, which requires AIM, which requires Espers, which require science. I don't see where the doubt lies.

you mean in NT8 with the dark-matter-h-esper? but she didnt turn herself into a esper, she "only" used her powers in order to stabilizhe the h-espers body...

I mean in general, she wasn't afraid to use her power when she had to. She destroyed the first Dainsleif, cut off the fake Thor's arm ect... all without worrying about the 50% thing. Thus, if she thought she could shrug off AIM rejection, she wouldn't have hesitated to become a Holistic Esper either.

to be fair, imagine yourself as a being which would destroy the world by only setting a foot on it, imagine to live for who knows how many years and never find anyone to be a match (aside from other majins) against you...
i think the confidence is undestandable

Just because it's understandable, doesn't make it reasonable. Aleister was, by their own admission, a man who could have been a Magic God had he wanted to. He had also broken into and destroyed their supposedly unreachable phase and survived them attacking him with their full power. A little bit of caution would have been wise.

sorry, i will try:
imagine a esper, he has a AIM field, his aim field isnt infnitely large, it stop after 2 or so meters...

imagine he wants to cast a spell which affects the clouds in 10(or so)km...

now the question: does he need to change the magis system if the "affected reality" isnt even in the near of his aim field? if yes, than why? obvously the affected reality from the espers aim isnt touched... that would mean that soething else creates the rejection...maybe it has to do with your speculation about "aim distorts it first and normal magic systems can tbe used"...

btw, if your theory was correct, than wouldnt this mean that normal magicians cant affect the surroundings or espers either? afterall the magics "coordinates" wouldnt work thanks to the distorted reality :/

It doesn't matter if the Esper casts a spell that affects a distant object, whether it be 10 km away or 10 light years away. The mana used to cast that spell would have to be produced from the Esper's own life force.

You seem to be misunderstanding something. You seem to believe that casting spells causes AIM rejection. That is not exactly the case. Rejection occurs in response to refining life force into mana, which is needed to cast spells. Thus, the details of the spell you're trying to cast, including the distance to the target, are 100% irrelevant, because rejection comes into play one step before the spell is cast.

[Tiken]

Originally Posted by allfictions

You are thinking about this wrong. Religions is not as big a factor as you make it to be, or else why do many Anglicans use Norse magics or why are there tons of magics based on fairy tales, which isn't exactly religious? The answer why Magicians are associated with religions is far simpler: isn't it simply because the religious denominations are technically the largest "cabals"? You get more ressources to help your magic, easy access to Grimoires you couldn't if you were from another religion, and you overall have less chances to get screwed over by the selfish whims of one Magician of your group.

You really shouldn't have skipped Birdway's explanations, it says all that and more.

Can they now?

If so, why has Komoe sensei sai Level 0s are an anomaly that shouldn't be possible? Or why was has AC been said to have been unable to find any plants and animals other than humans able to develop esper powers, even especially intelligent animals? What about Gemstones, they are formed naturally, yet their powers don't seem to function based on calculations or laws of physics, doesn't that mean personal reality are closer to beliefs than anything scientific? If the source for esper powers was only the brain, and Rensa can rearrange her brain and body to recreate other esper's, why would she just be able to act as an output point and stop being able to use a power if the owner dies but she still has their data?

Look, even in canon personal realities have been described as "delusions, preconceptions, or the ability to believe", and the uncertainty principle is litterally an observer interacting subjectively with their environment. There's nothing "objective", "scientific", or "universal" about that.

Erm, AIM is simply residual energy from their power, you know that, right? Pyrokinetic espers heat up their surroundings, telekinesis espers create pressure, and electromasters release electromagnetic fields, etc.

I thought you were talking about Rensa, because the Five_OVERS don't use AIM, they are simply replicating powers by mechanical means, as in totally normal means (except Five_OVER Mental Out, which apparently need to take the power directly from Misaki).

Then you misunderstood what it said. HP died, not that he is still dead. Othinus also died since she hung herself, would you say she is dead? And I presume Nephthys (as a mummy), NiangNiang (as a vampire), and Zombie Girl died as well. They simply later came back as Magic Gods, another form of existence, that doesn't make them not living. Especially weird to say when Aleister "instilled the fear of death", which wouldn't make any sense if they were still dead.

Next time, don't use extreme outliers as example. By that same token, Gabriel (a being made of Telesma), God's Right Seat (whose members can't use normal magic due to their cleansing), and Ollerus (whose special refined mana from trying to become Majin no longer allows him to perform normal magic) could also be used as "examples" of regular magicians, which I'm sure you will agree would be ridiculous.

And the AIM she is composed of come from...?

Er, what hints? Every time we have seen Aleister in action, he has used either magic (his rod, his magic name) or technology (Archetype Controller?). You're litterally the first person I saw say that.

1. Norse magic is connected with Norse Mythology - Fairy Tales are connected with Pagans Beliefs - And this is really stretching it, but Grimoires also draw inspiration from things like holy books, as well as made up things like the necronomicon.

No, I'm not going to go back and read it. Birdway's explanation really was that boring to me.

2. Komoe Sensei - Teachers can't be expected to know everything. Maybe level 0s were only capable of becoming magicians (They are untalented.) But thanks to the Power Curriculum Program, this avenue is forever closed off to them.

Plants don't have senience or independent thought.

Animals are not smart enough to be Espers, they cannot produce the calculations required. (They are untalented.)

Gemstones are not created arificially. They also are not a product of magic. But that doesn't mean anything until Kamachi makes an arc about them. I expect them to fall between both magic and science. Feng shui, perhaps?

Why would Rensa be unable to use an Esper's power if they are dead? thats an easy one - Esper powers are not entirely dependent on genetics.

Univeral Truth: based on scientific fact. Their views are confirmed by proven hypothesis.

Spiritual Beliefs: Based on emotional intuition. Their views are confirmed by personal enlightenment.

3. AIM/Residual Energy - You're missing a step, scientifically speaking, energy cannot be created nor destroyed. Once again, this energy must have an actual source. Either it is produced from some weird chemical reactions in their brains (Hint: No chemical reaction on earth is strong enough to do this within such a small scale as the human body unless they were literally made of pure atomic elements), their own life force, or it comes from the planet itself.

Misaki - Five_Over/Mental Out/Exterior - A brain requires oxygen, a complete functional nervous system, and blood circulation. As long as Misaki remains alive, the brain can use her AIM field. If she dies, it loses her Esper ability. If its destroyed, she loses her ability boost. (Which she did.)

Fun fact: The artwork for the FIVE_OVER intended for Misaki also shares similar characteristics to Aleister's glass tube in the windowless building.

Noukan's rocket drill utilized AIM. AIM was either channeled into the drill by Aleister, or into Noukan himself. But then again, Noukan has the brain of a human impanted into his head, so wouldn't that mean he is capable of using AIM or even Mana?

4. You just stated that all the magic gods had died at some point. You even presented their physical representations, all of which basically imply that their bodies are technically dead - (A girl that hanged herself (Her arm also fell off when talking to Ollerus), a mummy, a vampire, and an acutal zombie even.)

Like you said, after they all died, they entered a new form of existence. Doesn't this kind of explain itself? Dude they're dead, they died. The High Priest was dead for days, possibly even months. Yet, he came back. That pretty much says that his soul is bound to a dead corpse. This most likely applies to all of the magic gods, you know since they're dead and stuff.

Alesiter instilling fear was probably a side effect in their weakening. Here's a better explanation - they were downgraded to demigod status - making them mortal instead of immortal. They gained the imperfections of mortals, which includes frailty.

Gabriel is an angel - pure Telesma - but in order to cross over and materialize into their world, it required a living medium - Misha Kreutzev.

God's right seat - not being able to use normal magic due to being cleaned sounds like repentance or spiritual retribution if you ask me.

Ollerus - Not being able to use normal magic doesn't matter, he was never considered normal from the beginning. No, he is not a 'regular magician.'

5. Kazakiri does not have internal organs, her physical form slips in and out of reality constantly. Her AIM comes from other Espers, and possibly from Aiwass. She is not technically alive. She is closer to being something of an artificial intelligence, or more like the Will Of The Misaka Network than an actual living human being. (She has a crystal inside of her head, that is not a brain - but it does cause her to simulate a lifelike state - is it her soul? holy shit, I think it is.)

6. I doubt that I'm the only person who thinks this. But like I said, it can't be confirmed, only speculated.

7. Lastly, I'm not trying trying to poke fun at you dude, I'm just pointing interesting things out for others to speculate on. Try not to take things too personally.

[Doom_Paperclip]

Originally Posted by Tiken

No, I'm not going to go back and read it. Birdway's explanation really was that boring to me.

Only, that explanation contains 90% of everything we know about how magic works. Trying to theorize about magic in TAMNI without having read that is like trying to complete a high school level exam with elementary school level knowledge.

I urge you to reconsider your decision and swallow the bitter pill of overly long exposition, for both your benefit and that of everyone else here. It'll help make your speculations more consistent.

Animals are not smart enough to be Espers, they cannot produce the calculations required. (They are untalented.)

Arguably dolphins are close to human intelligence.

Why would Rensa be unable to use an Esper's power if they are dead? thats an easy one - Esper powers are not entirely dependent on genetics.

Not sure what you're trying to say here. Rensa can't use a dead Esper's power for the same reason a dead Esper can't use their power: because they're dead. A corpse has no power for Rensa to draw in.

3. AIM/Residual Energy - You're missing a step, scientifically speaking, energy cannot be created nor destroyed. Once again, this energy must have an actual source. Either it is produced from some weird chemical reactions in their brains (Hint: No chemical reaction on earth is strong enough to do this within such a small scale as the human body unless they were literally made of pure atomic elements), their own life force, or it comes from the planet itself.

It comes from quantum physics. Everything is described by a wave function that allows for several possible states. Observation makes that function collapse into only one of those states. Espers observe in such a way as to intentionally select the state where what they want to happen happens.

The energy doesn't come from the Esper, they simply observe the required energy to have been there from the start, a normally highly unlikely but nevertheless possible event. In general terms, this means that particles in the surroundings will have less energy than average, so that conservation of energy is not violated.

No life force is required. AIM is not science mana.

Misaki - Five_Over/Mental Out/Exterior - A brain requires oxygen, a complete functional nervous system, and blood circulation. As long as Misaki remains alive, the brain can use her AIM field. If she dies, it loses her Esper ability. If its destroyed, she loses her ability boost. (Which she did.)

Originally Posted by NT11

This was the Five Over Modelcase Mental Out.

It used pure industrial technology to completely reproduce the phenomena of a Level 5’s powers and, unlike the OS, it used the same basic theory as the Level 5’s powers. On top of that, it was meant to exceed the original’s output.

This was the final trump card the ant had hidden away to challenge the bee.

A giant form stood at the center of the world as everything melted together and formed a marble pattern.

It was a bizarrely long and narrow weapon that looked like a crane fly given the details of a wasp.

It was likely due to that weapon that Shokuhou and Mitsuari had been able to “compare answers” in that world of no lies“Five Over…?” muttered a dazed Shokuhou Misaki. “I’d heard one modelled after that foolish #3 had been mass-produced, but I didn’t know there was one for me. In fact, I thought even the researchers couldn’t agree how exactly Mental Out works.”

“Hee hee. To be honest, this thing breaks the rules. I doubt the higher ups would have agreed to build it under normal circumstances.”

“?”

“After all, it doesn’t contain anything to reproduce an esper’s powers using industrial technology. It doesn’t fit the definition of a Five Over.”

Shokuhou did not understand.

That would mean it was nothing more than a flying powered suit shaped like an insect.

But she rejected that idea.

“No, nothing that lacking in ability would show up after all this.”

“Very true. To correct what you said earlier, I believe they understood the general process Mental Out uses, but the exact distribution was a mystery. Even with a refrigerator full of ingredients, you can’t reproduce the flavor of a restaurant’s dishes without the recipe. This was the same.”

Mitsuari’s voice filled the melting world.

“That is why I will put you inside the machine.”

“…”

“I know it’s getting the priorities hopelessly reversed, but it’s the only correct answer. That Five Over is crammed full of eight thousand output devices. By placing you inside and having you activate your powers, it can monitor exactly which devices to use and how. By taking sample data from the real Level 5 just once, we should be able to mass-produce it without end.”

The Five Over Modelcase Mental Out doesn't need Misaki's power, only the data on how to use it. It has devices for manipulating brains with even more power than Misaki herself, but doesn't know how to use them to control people. It only needed Misaki for the time it took to figure out how to fulfill its functions, then Misaki could be safely discarded with no loss in performance. No AIM involved.

The Modelcase Railgun is the same. It just uses power, technologically advanced but ultimately mundane electromagnets to exceed Misaka's own railgun. Again, no AIM involved. None of the Five Overs use AIM as that would defeat the purpose of a machine designed to exceed Espers without actually using Esper powers.

Noukan's rocket drill utilized AIM. AIM was either channeled into the drill by Aleister, or into Noukan himself. But then again, Noukan has the brain of a human impanted into his head, so wouldn't that mean he is capable of using AIM or even Mana?

It was never outright stated that the AAA used AIM.

[allfictions]

TL;DR…

To Tiken, kinda long

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

7. Lastly, I'm not trying trying to poke fun at you dude, I'm just pointing interesting things out for others to speculate on. Try not to take things too personally.

There seems to be a misunderstanding, I'm neither mad, or even annoyed, nor do I think you "are poking fun at me" (what?) or "taking it personally" (what?).

I'm trying to make your theory into something approaching plausible, because as it is, it is illogical, inconsistent and ignore canon. There is way too many holes to enjoy it or find it interesting. Pretty sure that's what this thread is about: testing the plausibility of speculations to see which one we would like to be real. If you haven't thought your things through, that's not really my fault.

[Tiken]

Sorry, it's just that you do sound a little bitter. Honestly though, I'm fine with people shooting holes in my speculations. Just keep in mind that Espers and Magicians are not real. The very idea of humans being able to do any of these things ignores logic completely. No, I did not ignore canon, I can tell you're testing me here, sorry, but its not working.

Thoughts affect no one, they change nothing. You are not are at fault, and neither am I.

[LazyHunter]

@Tiken
You seem to misunderstand basic lore stuff.

You can use things completely unrelated to religion as a basis for magic. The only reason that most of what we see of magic is religious-based is because Idol Worship makes it more convenient that way. You don't need to hold religious beliefs to do magic. If you find the explanations provided on the series boring that's fine, but don't try to argue against people who do understand them.

Brain and calculation ability is a necessary component of esper powers but it's not the key. The Tree Diagram was the most advanced AI in Academy City and it still couldn't develop esper powers. Reread OT8 for Awaki's thoughts about esper powers only appearing in humans. Reread NT11's report on Misaki and Ayu for another mention of the brain's relation to esper powers. The Rensa point is that she is recreating an esper's body characteristics but ultimately she can only act as an output point for the power, so more proof that the brain is not the key for esper powers.

Gemstones are natural Espers. Considering we have an Esper who can create matter and another who violates the laws of thermodynamics I don't see why espers, who in the end are extremely limited reality espers, wouldn't be able to create energy.

The Five Over do not use AIM, they are explicitely a purely mechanic and scientific recreation of a Level 5's power. The mechanics behind the A.A.A have not been explained yet besides it drawing power from Aleister. It may be AIM but it's not confirmed.

Noukan is a dog who was enhanced by the Kiharas, he wasn't originally human. The person who transfered his consciousness into an animal body was Shundou who put it into a killer whale. Shundou himself notes this difference when they fight in NT11.

You can speculate all you want, that's something to be encouraged. But you are either ignoring canon that doesn't support your speculation or you haven't paid close attention to the series.

[tsunade666]

Originally Posted by Tiken

Just keep in mind that Espers and Magicians are not real. The very idea of humans being able to do any of these things ignores logic completely. No, I did not ignore canon, I can tell you're testing me here, sorry, but its not working.

true, but we're speculating based on the series lore and nope, they are not testing you. they are correcting you. I'm even tempted to do so but I'll just let the others do.

re-read birdway's teaching about idol theory and magic mechanics in tamniverse.

[Tiken]

I didn't say 'they' were testing me, I said that 'Allfiction' was. Still, I do not blame him for questioning me, nor anyone else who does so.

Look, this entire thing has somehow been derailed by a few petty things, and for some reason it keeps leading back to everyone wanting me to go back and read Birdway's explanation again. I wouldn't have even mentioned it if I knew it was going to turn into this. Can't you all just accept that I don't want to do that?

How about a new suggestion, you guys carry on with your thoughts, and I'll just leave the discussion completely up to you guys. You can just forget I was even here. Hell, you know what, you can even make fun of me and call me names, I don't mind. Sound cool?

[tsunade666]

Originally Posted by Tiken

I didn't say 'they' were testing me, I said that 'Allfiction' was. Still, I do not blame him for questioning me, nor anyone else who does so.

Look, this entire thing has somehow been derailed by a few petty things, and for some reason it keeps leading back to everyone wanting me to go back and read Birdway's explanation again. I wouldn't have even mentioned it if I knew it was going to turn into this. Can't you all just accept that I don't want to do that?

How about a new suggestion, you guys carry on with your thoughts, and I'll just leave the discussion completely up to you guys. You can just forget I was even here. Hell, you know what, you can even make fun of me and call me names, I don't mind. Sound cool?

I'm sorry if it turn into alienating you but its just that... your wrong in the whole magic theory in tamni.

I'm fine with moving on but please comeback again and we can continue in discussion.

The others are just correcting your mistake. Please don't take it as wrong.

It might sound boring to you, but Birdway's lecture is pretty informative.

Specially the idol theory thing.

To make it simple

idol theory is the magicians copying the legends or acts that has already happen before.

Since its already been done before. They are emulating it. Copying the methods and producing the same results but different in scale.

Mostly idol theory from the legend of gods are in grand scale so when its been copied and tried to be replicated by ordinary man. Its been downsized a A LOT. From vol 1 of index idol theory.

Now for magic gods. They are also using idol theory but more of reverse for it. They are just doing what had they done before.

Othinus was the origin of norse myth. The norse myth was basically a retelling of what she had done before. The people tried to copied the legend but they aren't the same level as her.

Some talented magicians can do the same as the legend. They even take the name of the legend like Thor, Fenrir or Helel.

That incorporates the reverse idol theory.

The basic of magic is to refined ones life force to make it into mana and to power up the spell formula with it. If its not spell formula, then the spell ritual or the spell itself. But basically, it needed mana that comes from life force as a source of energy.

The espers doesn't work like that.

Sure they got tired from performing the feat but they don't need to refine life force of mana to produce their ability and AIM is the byproduct or residual energy that comes after the feat is done or just by the esper themselves.

[Accelerator fan]

So i was having this discussion about Accelerator Lvl 6 and it turn into Aleister goal discussion so i post my thoughts about the discussion but no one replied so someone told me to post here, so here goes

Spoiler for My thoughts:

Here is what we know it seems that Aleister can create a Lvl 6 by combining Accelerator, Last Order, and Kazakiri. but he don't want to because Lvl 6 is only a multiple dimensions being and doesnt think like a human so he can't communicate with it or control him.

He hate magic and can destroy it but he won't for some reason(maybe he want to save them rather then kill them).

all his plan relate to the Aeon of Horus but didn't he already reached that with Aiwass.

maybe he want something beyond the Aeon of Horus maybe he want the Aeon of Ma'at the one said to replace the present one.

If we know Aleister he won't be satisfied with just the Aeon of Horus after all becoming a magic god wasn't good enough for him Lvl 6 wasn't good enough for him if there is something beyond the Aeon of Horus he will want it and i think i heard something about a Nameless Aeon beyond the the Aeon of Ma'at but i don't know.

But what exactly are the Aeons from what i heard they are not some power up they are a level of understand the first one the Aeon of Isis was the Aeon of ignorance and the Aeon of Horus was the Aeon of self-realization and self-actualization i don't exactly know what was the Aeon of Osiris but whatever so maybe Aleister want a knowledge not even humans or the magic gods can comprehend.

can Kazuma Kamachi make something like that if so then he is properly Kazuma.exe after all Hahaha.

[LevelSeven]

Originally Posted by Accelerator fan

He hate magic and can destroy it but he won't for some reason(maybe he want to save them rather then kill them).

he wants to save who? the magicians? i highly doubt that, he is letting people die for his plans since the beginning of the story (and before too), i dont think that he does it for something like "saving" them :/

all his plan relate to the Aeon of Horus but didn't he already reached that with Aiwass.

as far as i know he is close the the horus aeon, maybe he needs something above lvl6 in order to fully reach ot or he wants to go above the horus-aeon :/

maybe he want something beyond the Aeon of Horus maybe he want the Aeon of Ma'at the one said to replace the present one.

the present one is osiris...
at least accel got described as one, it mostlikely represents his mindset of his and the world, basically: there are two sides in everything, good-evil, light-darkness, yin-yang etc
and horus is the mindset that your will is the law and doing what you want (at least as far as i understood), maybe this is why some people think that white-wing-accel reached the aeon of horus :/

either way, first the story would need to reach the aeon of horus (meaning: aleiters arc) in order to than change into another one

If we know Aleister he won't be satisfied with just the Aeon of Horus after all becoming a magic god wasn't good enough for him Lvl 6 wasn't good enough for him if there is something beyond the Aeon of Horus he will want it and i think i heard something about a Nameless Aeon beyond the the Aeon of Ma'at but i don't know.

sounds like the main goal of aiwass XD
kamachi will troll the readers and how that instead of aleister as big-end-boss there is still aiwass
imagine aiwass as the final big bad who wants to become even more powerful and reach the final "nameless aeon" which will make him into a god

But what exactly are the Aeons from what i heard they are not some power up they are a level of understand the first one the Aeon of Isis was the Aeon of ignorance and the Aeon of Horus was the Aeon of self-realization and self-actualization i don't exactly know what was the Aeon of Osiris but whatever so maybe Aleister want a knowledge not even humans or the magic gods can comprehend.

if he becomes a being outside of the possible limits of human comprehension than he should naturally get to understand things which are to "high" for mortals (including majins (who, (mind-wise) are pretty human))...

[Accelerator fan]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

he wants to save who? the magicians? i highly doubt that, he is letting people die for his plans since the beginning of the story (and before too), i dont think that he does it for something like "saving" them :/

He personally said that he hate magic not the magicians maybe he want to save them from magic as for him letting people die for his plans there a lot of character like that who kill for the greater good if it is not his goal then what, he can destroy them but he won't and i am sure he can torment them but he won't i am not sure what is his goal for magic either so i think we might need more information before anything.

as far as i know he is close the the horus aeon, maybe he needs something above lvl6 in order to fully reach ot or he wants to go above the horus-aeon :/

We need to wait for more clues before we say anything like Lvl 7 as far as i know kamachi is not planning to end the LN anytime soon at least not until the 20th anniversary we might see something above Lvl6 in that time.

the present one is osiris...
at least accel got described as one, it mostlikely represents his mindset of his and the world, basically: there are two sides in everything, good-evil, light-darkness, yin-yang etc
and horus is the mindset that your will is the law and doing what you want (at least as far as i understood), maybe this is why some people think that white-wing-accel reached the aeon of horus :/

either way, first the story would need to reach the aeon of horus (meaning: aleiters arc) in order to than change into another one

This is wrong

The world has entered (March, 1904) the New Aeon, the Age of the Crowned and Conquering Child. The predominance of the Mother (Aeon of Isis) and of the Father (Aeon of Osiris) are of the past. Many people have not completely fulfilled those formulae, and they are still valid in their limited spheres; but the Masters have decided that the time has come for the administration of the Sacraments of the Aeon of Horus to those capable of comprehension.

This is taking from the true Book of the Law writing by the true Aleister crowley i am sure kamachi take his sources from there, so the world is already in the Aeon of Horus but some people are not, like Accelerator in the past but now he must have entered the Aeon of Horus because of the self-realization he get in OT20.

sounds like the main goal of aiwass XD
kamachi will troll the readers and how that instead of aleister as big-end-boss there is still aiwass
imagine aiwass as the final big bad who wants to become even more powerful and reach the final "nameless aeon" which will make him into a god

But from his personality that is not possible he have no motivation at all before he start thinking about taken over the world he need to stop thinking about suicide from boredom, maybe some character development hmmm, as for the "nameless aeon" i heard that from the Book of the Law

Kenneth Grant also proposed three prehistorical Aeons, of the Void, of Chaos, and of the Earth, which would have preceded that of Isis. Nema, writing in The Cincinnati Journal of Ceremonial Magick (No. VII) telescoped these three into the "Nameless Aeon," characterized by the Egyptian god Bes. In addition, she added a "Wordless Aeon" to succeed the double Aeon of Horus and Maat, so that Harpocrates as silence would complete the cycle. Thus, the full sequence proposed by Nema is Bes -- Isis -- Osiris -- Horus -- Maat -- Harpocrates.

but i can barely understand this i read some of the Book of the Law but it's very complicated i hope someone understand this.

if he becomes a being outside of the possible limits of human comprehension than he should naturally get to understand things which are to "high" for mortals (including majins (who, (mind-wise) are pretty human))...

So as you say and i agree, Aleister goal must be to reach the final Aeon.

[tsunade666]

Aleister never said that he wants to save someone.

Horus is more of the age of free will or freedom.

[Tiken]

It's likely that nobody here wants to hear what I have to say, (Me referring back to my own previous posts), but rather than just writing it off as blind hatred of magic, it might be that he is actually trying to stop something from happening, in the future perhaps?

Picture this: what if the original (old) world has already been destroyed by some cataclysmic event, and the world they are living in is just one giant illusion. Maybe in this illusion that everyone is living in, his daughter is still alive, but in the future, she is destined to die because of..high priests actions (Please don't hate me for bringing him up again.) Aleister said it took him what...50 years to find someone like Accelerator? I started thinking about this after reading the prologue in NT13. It said: "The world is only being maintained because something special is happening."

Would it be unreasonable to believe that someone, or something, turned back time, and the events that are happening are just being repeated a second time?

[Inept Forum User]

Just thinking regarding potential AC launch failure contingencies (conventional rocket launches); given/as well as the use of drones in School District 23, do you think neutralizing agents and dispersal units may be viable possibilities?

[Tiken]

I'm not sure what you're referring to. Do you mean something like Mimosa?