2012-07-07, 00:41 | Link #9901 | |
The Last Frontier
Join Date: Apr 2004
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Plus saying Medaka thinks Zen is a totally ordinary person who isn't special in anyway while saying she also believes he is the only person who can catch up to her is kinda wtf. Anyone who can catch up to Medaka is already not an ordinary person
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2012-07-07, 00:41 | Link #9902 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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However, Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle which you're mentioning actually does have a fully rational explanation. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle is basically a statement of a limitation we humans have in being able to simultaneously determine the location and momentum of a particle. However, the reason we face this limitation is precisely a result of the method we're forced to use to obtain any particle's location and momentum. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle arises from the fundamental dual wave-particle nature of matter. While it's unnoticeable at the macro scales of human perception, the truth is that actually, all matter behaves like a wave. At the scales of quantum physics this wave nature of matter pretty much completely takes over; so that unlike the concept in classical physics whereby all particles can be characterized by a position and momentum, it is difficult to speak of waves having a "position" or "momentum" in the first place. Basically, this is where Heisenberg's uncertainty principle arises from: for a wave (particle), "momentum" is measured by the wave's energy (i.e. its amplitude). However, because individual "waves" are pretty much just an infinite oscillation, it pretty much does not make sense to even talk about waves having a "position". The only thing which you actually can do to accordingly reduce waves into some sort of localized "position", is to add multiple waves together into what is known as a "wave packet". When you add multiple waves together, the wave amplitudes build up on each other to create peaks where they are all "in phase", and stretches of zero amplitude, where their amplitudes have all cancelled out each other. So in this kind of scenario, I suppose it becomes sort of possible to say that the waves (particles) have "position" only along the points of the wave where it does not have zero amplitude. The more waves you add together, the more localized the packet; therefore, accordingly, the more "fixed" the wave particles' positions. However, if a wave packet is the result of many waves added together, then the wave packet's amplitude no longer reflects any specific wave/particle's individual energy. That is to say, the more waves you add together to localize their positions, the less knowledge you are able to retain about any individual wave's momentum/energy. It's a direct and inescapable trade off. The equation of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle basically states the limits of this trade off: i.e. for however much a you localize a wave (particle)'s period, you lose this much information regarding its amplitude. None of that really reflects any inherent parameter of the wave/particle itself; in the end it's really pretty much just a statement about the boundaries of our imperfect human knowledge. In the end Heisenberg's uncertainty principle is just a natural consequence of our unnatural attempt to apply the concept of "position" to something without any position in the first place. For the record, the mathematical basis for this is pretty much extremely straightforward/logical. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle is hardly an example of a fact of science which "just works" or is irrational; the reason it seems to imply an irrational characteristic of reality is because it's the result of trying to apply an irrational standard (particle-like parameters) onto something which doesn't possess them (waves) in the first place. Last edited by Sol Falling; 2012-07-08 at 12:13. |
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2012-07-07, 02:24 | Link #9904 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Fact of the matter is in regards to this, while there may be a system when there's a lot of data incomplete you cannot state that your results are accurate for all scenario's and regards to something like love where there's some 6 billion with a magnitude more variages it's practically worthless. So yes your wrong, it's a worthless discussion and it's quite laughable you brought it up. The thing that annoys me most in regards to this sort of crap is when people who gain some mild amount of scientific knowledge, forget basic scientific principles and come up with some bullshit results and whats worse try persuade the informed. That shit can get dangerous, because of a persons callousness. |
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2012-07-07, 03:27 | Link #9907 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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Are you actually going to argue that it is pointless or impossible for a writer to explain (through their story) why and how one of their characters came to love another? Do you seriously have trouble comprehending this idea? It doesn't take "thousands of factors" or "billions of possibilities", the author only has to show one possibility, the actual possibility which shows up in the story. Hundreds of fictional characters have their emotions and love towards other characters developed and rationally communicated to an audience in stories every day, it is complete delusion to say "lol nope, you can't explain love, it's just totally irrational". The bullshit you've brought up twice now is completely irrelevant. My explanation of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle hardly has anything to do with my arguments. ccie20012 was the one who brought up the concept, repeatedly. Try to actually follow the conversation: ccie20012 was trying to say that "hey! Even science is irrational" or "According to some 18th century poet, art is about emotion" in order to criticise the fundamental concept of using a rational/analytical approach to interpreting Medaka Box's story/characters. |
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2012-07-07, 03:40 | Link #9908 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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This isn't quantum physics, it's actually quite logical in itself as some who has actually been in love will tell you, maybe not all but some. The fact this concept is incomprehensible to you shows a profound lack of understandings about human beings. It's not impossible for the author to use this concept and it won't neccesarily be bad writing for him to do it, it's simply a matter of execution. And yet somehow you came with some crap about all love being factual and provable. |
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2012-07-07, 04:04 | Link #9909 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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Do you think that Nishio has purposely indicated that Zenkichi's just being irrationally in love with Medaka right now? Has he actually addressed the question of why he's in love with her? Or do you think this is just one of several possibilities which Nishio might use when he finally gets around to explaining Zenkichi's love for Medaka later. In any case, I didn't say that love was factual or provable. I said that love is completely explainable from a rational perspective. Rational == logic. All this meant is that if you actually sat down and thought about it, you would be able to come up with logical reasons for why you (or anybody) were in love with anybody. Some of these logical explanations might include any basic knowledge you might have of evolutionary biology or psychology, or they might include ways in which you think that love makes sense due to the person's social situation or personality. You might come up with any number of possible explanations. In any case, you would go through a logical process of selecting the explanations/factors which actually seem most likely, and at the end of it you would be able to rationally say "this is why I believe this person loves that person". EXAMPLE: "After logical consideration, this is why I believe Zenkichi loves Medaka. blah blah blah." Not an unreasonable activity at all to discuss Medaka Box as a manga. |
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2012-07-07, 04:22 | Link #9910 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Sometimes all the logical reasons point you toward someone but you want someone else it happens. Story telling isn't about understanding characters it's about creating characters and just like in real life you won't perfectly understand someone typically good characters are the same while still being reasonable understandable unless they serve a different purpose. |
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2012-07-07, 06:50 | Link #9912 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Europe
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^ *Just a plan* or something like this.
But honestly ,I thought Nisho was pretty clear about medaka and zen and how they feel about eachother. Come on,Medaka reaction made the point pretty clear. Now whatever she answer yes or not it's another story. |
2012-07-07, 16:29 | Link #9913 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
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Can't believe I'm saying this(since we're usually on opposite spectrums), but I pretty much agree with Sol Falling on this matter.
Mostly because of the fact: how can I feel for the main romance, when Medaka's reasonings and love come from unexplained fear of no-one catching up to her and her ending-up being alone, and Zenkichi's aren't even touched upon at all with a decent explanation? How can me, as a reader, like sloppy story-telling? Quote:
And the question persists: why does he love Medaka beyond death and rebirth? There is definitely something awry in Nishio's head. This kind of lop-sided story-telling is not his style, he built up Kumagawa since the start. Either he failed miserably as a story-teller for this romance, or he's planning something. I mean, the only explanation I can currently conjure as to why Zenkichi loves Medaka, is that's the only person he knows how to love because, for all his childhood, he was bound to Medaka. She wouldn't let his fricking mother take him home, for christ's sake. What would happen when anyone else tried to bond with child Zenkichi? Would Medaka scare them away too because she would be scared of losing him and being alone? That's just one reason, there could be millions of others. Maybe he just wants to groper her breasts. And that's the point. Nishio just left a gaping hole there, he never developed or gave a reason, he just denied reasons in Zenkichi's mind, and expertly dodged the trick question. Nishio definitely did not write this as a romance you'd like. He gave far better development to Emukae's feelings, and he even alluded that Zenkichi ''liked her''(as in the way he likes plenty of his friends) because of her personality. That would at least be a reason to build something. He dosen't give anything for Medaka in Zen's mind, in his mind he just loves her, even if the Flask Plan could make people exactly like her. No explanation needed? And now he's establishing such a blatent dichotomy between the purity and honesty of Emukae's love in comparison to the gritty, undeveloped, unhealthy love Medaka and Zenkichi have for each other, I can't believe I didn't catch this before. Nishio is definitely not writting this by accident. It can't be an accident that he made EmukaexZenkichi much more developed/likeable/believable to the audience reading his manga than ZenkichixMedaka. I bet he dosen't want us to feel for this romance. So yes, I definitely believe something's up. Before, I really did this this was just bad writting, but now I see there's definitely something building up. Last edited by Wolfenstein; 2012-07-07 at 17:19. |
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2012-07-07, 19:35 | Link #9914 | ||
Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
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Spoiler for Note possessed page 1:
Spoiler for no special page 2:
If we read this page 2 which over here: She starts talking about how nobody are special or cannot keep up with her but what does Zenkichi do he says for bottom of his heart: Don't cry Medaka Chan I Don't want you to see you cry which is Irony since everytime in whole Manga where Medaka Cries is because of something happens to Zenkichi just like what Ajimu told. Even as 2 year old he can see clear different between him and Medaka just by seeing her finish all those games with out getting tried but instead of being jealous or angry he sees the best side of Her that why is He maybe gave her the most impossible task in world to make everybody happy since she clearly got talent do the task maybe what Zenkichi thought was just naive but common he was just normal 2 year old child. Reason why I think he want chase her is so that she would not be lonely clear as that just by looking at reaction to her tears in that page 2 but also she is his first and only friend just look at what Zenkichi was doing before he meet here he was surround toys since she was lonely just like him so though he should take another path to become her equal/friend so that she would not be lonely again just like what said at page 2 over there which I posted she says: nobody in this world is special I'm alone. You also says: Quote:
Here what Mystery Director says about relationship between Zenkichi and Medaka: Let Her be that way that child will learn that there aren't any special people in this world It is no wonder why Medaka think like this because she can do everything but also her close ones/adults tell her that their are no special in the world. but also to what Kumagawa said to her at Hospital: People are born for no reason the unrelated because there is no goal to life there's no point to being alive. When you read here chapter 51 about How Medaka meet Zenkichi she consider herself "adult" but Zenkichi as child. This what she says: Now that I'm older and know better I did nothing more than steal a toy from a child. since that was her only way she knew how to introduce herself by showing of her skills. Here says about reason why she thought Zenkichi was special: Even with her experience with various people due to her circumstances It was her first time meeting someone like him so she of course thought that Zenkichi was special person who could meet her standards. meaning being like her just like I said because Zenkichi got sick he didn't meet her standards meaning that he was not special. but before that she propose to Zenkichi and he said no but reason of proposal was because she thought he saved her she says: I'm not exaggerating but I really thought I was saved so I could not go on without putting my feelings into my words. but I think she was asking for Him to be her friend. It will be interesting to say what happens next Source: Chapter 53,146 and 153 |
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2012-07-07, 21:23 | Link #9915 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Okay guys, listen.
Emukae is not going to win and you need to accept this now before you get even more upset later. It really doesn't even matter why Zenkichi loves Medaka; he does, he'll never stop, and that's the end of it. |
2012-07-08, 01:07 | Link #9919 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Somewhere
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For me at least, the romance bothers me a bit because it feels like there was something else to Zenkichi before Medaka. We see that Medaka was lonely before she met Zenkichi...and Zenkichi's character has largely been his love for Medaka. Why is it that Zenkichi becomes this satellite to Medaka? We could say it's because he's a normal guy, and he just developed into that character(the whole purpose he gave to Medaka could partly be chalked up to two year old foolishness).
Honestly, I never felt like Zenkichi was "guiding" Medaka. Whatever her flaws, she's clearly her own character. Well...I'll see |
2012-07-08, 07:16 | Link #9920 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
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@Kaisos Erranon
Agree. It is predicted, natural and favorite pair of readers (hmm ... IMHO). http://www.emptyblue.it/data/wallpap...a_box_0043.jpg We waited ~150 chapters, to get pleasure from the recognition scene between Zen and Medaka. |
Tags |
action, comedy, harem, nishio, romance, shounen, student council |
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