2013-07-30, 07:11 | Link #5301 | |
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"Nothing in relation to Jessica's body pertains to the murder of Dr.Nanjo." Allow me to expand on Eva-Beatrice's Web of Red Truth Any culprit in the Umineko series must be conscious and aware of his or her actions! As it pertains to Shannon and Kanon having the One-Winged Eagle, its Confirmed that at one point, Kinzo either ran or looked over an orphanage, and from there Kannon and Shannon(Sayo) were adopted and made into servants. Note how Kuwasawa doesn't have the Eagle, in spite of her long service. I purpose that the only ones who can wear the One-Winged eagle are either those directly related to, associated with or confined with Ushiromiya Kinzo. In other words, we can say it's like a possession marker or something. As proof, none of the adults who married(Such as Kyrie, Natsuhi, etc.) have the mark. They don't have it because they don't have an intimate connection with the family lines. This is in liew of Kinzo's supremacist views. My apologies to fun-kun who is clearly new to our Game Board, but you were getting Shakanontrice shoved down your throat, and I needed to be objective and give you Rosatrice. |
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2013-07-30, 07:56 | Link #5303 | |
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But all of my Red Truths can be backed by blue truths. And thereby, congruent with all of the rules. As it regards my red truth concerning how a character must be conscious and aware of his or her own actions. The Epitath itself proves it. Even with an alternative ego, that person would have to be conscious or aware of the epitath in order to commit the crimes. This is why the insanity defense IRL is actually quite difficult to untangle. Sure, a murderer is by definition "insane" in that, who would want to give up a life? But, if he believes consciously in what he's doing, he's "sane" in that a truly mentally retarded person would be incapable of thought or action, or thoughtless actions would be his M.O The first red truth I used Was Eva-Beatrice's. And as far as my statement that Shannon and Kanon were adopted to be servants, that was mentioned in the narrative. and grey, you yourself concurred that we could use the narrative for our arguments. The fact that those who married "into" the Ushiromiya family don't have the symbol, gives great credence to my theory that only those associated with or had close ties to Kinzo could bare the crest. Where, in any way did I not follow the rules of the Umineko story? |
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2013-07-30, 08:30 | Link #5304 | |
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I never said that anything that can be seen in the narrative, can be used as red truth! I only said that anything that can be seen in the narrative is enough to be a considered a "clue" and with that satisfy Knox's 8th! That is a very big difference! That Shannon and Kanon were both taken in by Kinzo is not a valid red truth. At least not if that is your way of saying that "those two cannot be the same person"...
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2013-07-30, 08:51 | Link #5305 | |
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Aura-chan(assuming Aura's a girl) argued that the sealed eagles is a part of the proof that make Shannon and Kanon special. I decided to define a reason that they have the crest. And I think I laid out a pretty strong theory. As I said in another thread I deny Shkanontrice because it's utterly implausible to me I'm not KNM. But I watched his videos, which convinced me on Rosatrice(or rather, Rosatrice is the only logical culprit, followed by Evatrice. It's the same reasoning for rejecting Black Battler. Only in the 5th game, was Battler not the detective. And above all, everything we know about Battler suggests he wouldn't be the murdering type. Last edited by ALPHA-Beatrice; 2013-07-30 at 09:36. Reason: To keep the discussion on theorem simplified. |
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2013-07-30, 09:33 | Link #5307 | |
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I'll edit the post though, I can see where I wasn't speaking in generalites and gave out a big spoiler regarding Shakanontrice theory. |
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2013-07-30, 11:21 | Link #5308 |
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Honestly I feel like this argument is really beyond the bounds of this particular thread. Everyone here was only giving Funyarinpa hints that he could think about himself, not trying to convince him that a particular theory was true or more convincing than any other.
Alpha, the fact that you're presenting this dichotomy between two particular theories is sort of a spoiler in and of itself, because you're giving away the fact that these two theories are the most popular explanations of the series, and that alone says a lot about where the rest of the series is going. I would really hold off on these kinds of discussions until Funyarinpa has finished all eight episodes and had the opportunity to evaluate and interpret things himself. Also, I believe that Aura is a guy. |
2013-07-30, 11:37 | Link #5309 | |
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The Red is not assumed to be true, it is true, it has to be true or it violates itself. The only thing that makes it ambiguous is the fact that there is no definitive rule how something needs to be said to fulfill the definition of "true". Like the statements "I am not at home" and "I am sitting in my room" can be true at the same time regarding the definition of "home" and "my room". Blue can never outright defeat Red, it can merely force a statement that reveals the ambiguity and trappings of how the witches' side uses the Red to construct a certain reality (=illusion). Gold can only defeat Red for purposes that are not supposed to be discussed in an EP6 thread. Aura should be considered a trap...somehow everybody including myself seems to think it's a girl... |
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2013-07-30, 14:07 | Link #5310 | |
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Location: Rokkenjima
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2013-07-30, 14:47 | Link #5311 | |
The True Culprit
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Lol, for what it's worth, people mistake me for a girl irl. I had to wear the female uniform in high school to avoid getting loaded down with questions. This is exactly why I joked that I was actually Shkanon a few years back.
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I would point out here that you can't use the same reasoning for Black Battler as for Shkanon, as the two exist on different meta-planes. Black Battler is specifically "Despite what the stories say, Battler did it" as a theory for 'Real Rokkenjima', so his being the Detective in all the Gameboards has literally zero weight; the argument goes that the writer puts Battler in that position to put him above suspicion, in effect making his role as detective the cover for the real-world culprit. Shkanon, meanwhile, can be quite the opposite. A culprit in a gameboard who is innocent in the real world...
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2013-07-30, 16:07 | Link #5312 | ||
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But having to wear the female school uniform? That kinda scrapes the barrel of weird...in terms of what society does to people. Ehm...okay, back to the topic. Quote:
Spoiler for EP8 manga:
The detective thing was also proven in EP6 when Erika was able to kill even if she just temporarily lost her detective status. So exactly as Aura said, so far we are missing a good reason to why you refuse Shkannon as being implausible. |
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2013-07-30, 17:48 | Link #5313 | ||
The True Culprit
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The example I quoted isn't even a valid one, if only because Kinzo had nothing to do with Shannon and Kanon being 'adopted'; they're standard-raised Fukuin house servants that are officially identical to every other servant that comes in and out, and Genji handles that entire process. If you're going to make up statements extrapolated from existing reds, you need to use Blue Truth; that's what it's for. You are using Red incorrectly. Therefore, you are not a witch. Witches don't exist! Zen zen dameda!
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2013-07-31, 06:39 | Link #5314 |
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Location: Germany
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Um, did I cause you guys some trouble or anything?
I only skimmed through the post since I saw the word Spoilers mentioned, so sorry if that was the case. And what's a black Battler? Is it that "other Battler" that was hinted at? And why black, is he like afro-american? I haven't heard of him yet. |
2013-07-31, 06:54 | Link #5315 |
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Someone just decided to come in and start arguing with people about things that would be much better suited to the spoiler thread. I'd just abandon this topic now if I were you since everyone seems to have started debating about things from later in the series (and from apocryphal material, which is where Black Battler comes from).
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2013-07-31, 07:42 | Link #5316 | |
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So now that you got this far, try to think what it is that killed Battler in the 4th game at the end. No one but Battler was alive. Who/What could it be? Why did the games suddenly end at 24:00 all the time, even if some people were still alive? Why was Eva in EP3 the only exception? In retrospect, the answer is something that Battler already considered in EP4, but he severly miscalculated the scale of it.
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2013-07-31, 11:17 | Link #5317 | |
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Earlier, you made the argument that the servants(Shannon and Kanon) having the One-winged eagle was crucial to the Shakanon theory's plausibility. I suggested the theory that the One-Winged Eagle is a stigma to represent possession. In the fourth game, Dr. Nanjo suggested that the cousins were the possessional worth that the siblings brought forth. Similarly, Shannon and Kanon are "Kinzo's possession"(in Beatrice's words, they are his "furniture."). As such, the Eagle at least cannot prove one way or another on Shkanontrice's validity. My apologies to Fuya about bringing up Black Battler. That was just me saying how Shakanontrice is implausible to me. Simply, the concept of several different beings existing with a different body is implausible. Or at least, the idea of George "witnessing" Shannon, while the others can "witness" Kanon or so forth. To me, from a mystery perspective: There's one culprit with his or her accomplices whose responsible for the events on Rokkenjima. I won't argue who or what that is any longer though, it's just butting heads. |
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2013-07-31, 11:21 | Link #5318 | |
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2013-07-31, 11:24 | Link #5319 | |
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The beauty of Umineko is to be able to see with one's own love, I wanted to try to protect Fuya's ability to create his own truth within the game. |
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2013-07-31, 13:05 | Link #5320 | |||
The True Culprit
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