AnimeSuki Forums

Tonatale · 2006-01-19, 22:50

I recently worked with a group to release a show in mkv with softsubs. Since our release, two separate groups have demuxed our script from the video, then encoded and released their own version using our scripts virtually verbatim. It's obviously our script because you can demux the script from one of their mkv releases and our notes and comments are still present in the .ssa. Their response was that since we used softsubs, they have the right to use our work without our permission.

Now, I realize fansubbing is technically illegal to begin with so the issue of who has what rights is actually a moot point, but I was wondering what other people's opinions were on this matter. Is it okay to steal softsub scripts and release your own version without crediting the original group?

Sergejack · 2006-01-19, 23:06

It's not a good thing, but it's not a bad thing either.

1) You should want people who love japanime to be able to watch those wich you worked on, and the more people release your work the more the people will get it (even if they don't know it's yours).
2) People are very hasty, the one question they always ask is "When will be the next release out?" and you know what? Since your team is the one to answer that, people will eventually know it's up to your them to answer.
3) When it comes to thievery, there is no perfect protection... don't think hardsub can prevent the most talented sub-thieves to steal your work.
4) You don't need more than those 3 reason, so 4 is useless

Enragin_Angel · 2006-01-19, 23:09

It's not okay, but what can you do about it. Not much difference between softsubs and hardsubs except that using softsubs makes it easier for those groups to steal your work. Hardsubs only deter the lazy stealers. You gotta ask yourself what your priorities are... Spreading your love for anime or spreading your name through the fansub community. I try to think of it as a flattering thing when another group steals my work over another group's work.

DryFire · 2006-01-19, 23:49

It's not ok to steal subs and claim them as your own. Softsubs should not make it more or less improper.

Laik · 2006-01-20, 00:03

At the end of the day, it's not cool to take something someone elese has put in work on and pass it off as your own. The only good that could really come out of something like that is the fact that the people who want it are getting it faster but it's just not cool to take credit for something you didn't do.

I could see if they gave credit or something though but man.

Tonatale · 2006-01-20, 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laik

I could see if they gave credit or something though but man.

One of them did after the fact and after we complained.

Thanks for the responses, guys. I think what upset me the most was their attitude and not so much not being credited.

Maids! Maids! Maids! · 2006-01-20, 01:08

Given everything that happens around us, and what most of us participate in, what's "ethical" or "right" seems to become a "community standards" issue. I think it is OK for you to say who did what. Any credible group is going to respond. Sometimes, they say they're sorry. I've seen it happen.

It's late and I'm a bit delirious. I hope I made myself clear. Don't be coy or present the issue as an abstraction. Let the community decide. Just make sure you can back your claims up.

Moderators, please correct me if I'm wrong. I've seen some remarkable accusations on the Animesuki forums and a convincing apology. That usually goes a long way in fixing things. If they don't respond, well, then we know.

Edit: Hmmmm. I just reread the poll. The question is fine. One of the answers appear to be a bit loaded.

Kyaa the Catlord · 2006-01-20, 02:22

Quote:

No, all stealing is wrong.

Is this not the most ironic option ever?

I think its dirty pool to steal someone else's script. If you have to borrow someone else's work, at least try to get permission to use it. I could see some wiggle room if a group went dark and you couldn't find contact info, although making a fresh script or at least paraphrasing the old script would probably be better. :P

Enragin_Angel · 2006-01-20, 02:32

I've had plenty of foreign language groups use my group's work as a base for translation without permission, I've had a certain group which I will not name steal scripts from our ftp and rereleased them with a xvid dvd rip, but I didn't really care. The foreign subs I don't mind as much, but stealing from our ftp was pretty low. But even then, it's not like they couldn't steal it from the hardsub so I got over it pretty quickly. Those scripts they stole weren't even fine timed so basically they were just too lazy to copy it or OCR it from the hardsub.

Tiberium Wolf · 2006-01-20, 02:57

Since you were using softsubs you were asking to be stolen!

If you had it hardsubbed their would be less % of getting stolen coz you need to make more actions to rls your own version.

Let's see... you have a mkv were you can extract the script. It's all typesetted, edited and timed. It's really there... all done and neat. All you need to is to mod the scrip credits then grab the video and hard sub it. Voila... your own version.

PS: I wish everyone did hardsub anyway coz I dont like softsubs

naka · 2006-01-20, 04:31

don't let script stealing deter you from using softsubs -_-'...

heck all my scripts are ripped and altered/edited and re-released one way or another...

softsub/hardsub does not make a difference in script stealing...
heck, i even notice groups hardsub JUST so people won't steal their script that easily... (yet their scripts are being ripped anyway)

if people are that determined to rip off your script, there's nothing you can do about it, hardsub or softsub, timing is just what? a few more hours of work that anyone can trained up to do

using a mkv softsub does not justify it being treated differently than the old hardsub avi/mp4 format, in credit wise, it would be nice for them to credit the original script contributors, but them doing it or not, with or without prior consent/permission from the original script contributors, is still up to them. It's a 2-edge-sword. If they don't credit the original, then most likely they don't care about people ripping their own work either, and there's nothing you can do to change that attitude/perspective.

what matters the most is people are fundamentally watching your work, and isn't that the primary reason of why you get into fansub in the first place? to promote anime, have people watch your work, and eventually... buy the product when it's on shelf in r1?

heck, i think softsub's the way to get your work to be seen as much as possible, a fan can practically buy a r1/r2 disc, load it into mpc, and load the script that you contributed to with little hassle (other than slight shifts of timing that can be done through the playback setting)

LytHka · 2006-01-20, 07:59

I can see softsubs being demuxed from fansubs' media containers as good and useful for only one thing: their usage with original untranslated R2 DVDs.

exedore · 2006-01-20, 08:33

As someone posts all his groups scripts on the website...

It's cool. Really. As long as they give credit, and (hopefully) ask, it's not a big deal; it's something that has been going on since the start of fansubbing.

Now should someone else be doing a public relese of this?

Mmmmmmmmmmmm....that's iffy. I could see why they'd want to if they got a better raw (ie bought R2 DVD after the original group did a release with TV rips) or wanted an XviD AVI version, but even so, they should ask permission (unless the original group's long gone).

FWIW, R2 buyers must love being able to pull scripts out of MKV files...easy way to sub their discs.

Nicholi · 2006-01-20, 08:49

I don't see fansubbers as owning anything. You do something for a community not for yourself. Stolen shouldn't be the right mentality you are taking here but unfortunately you believe you have some claim to controlling how/what/where/why your work is used as though you have a copyright on it. In the past before digital fansubbing was extremely popular "true fansubbers" simply released scripts that anyone could view and use and improve upon. Stop the bickering and just share the work. If someone can use your scripts a few years down the line to improve upon them or whatnot whats wrong with that? If someone takes them the next day and distributes it on a much wider base and claims it as their own work so what? Isn't the untainted super pure fansubbing principle meant to follow self-sacrifice and doing things for the community? Stop worrying about who and what gets the credit and be happy people are viewing something that you put your work into, hopefully because you wanted others to see it.

Subs should be shared not kept under lock and key for only the privledged.

Disclaimer: That would just be the ideal fansubbing which of course cannot exist because we own our subs and can't share them. As to reality, I love Tonatale's group (if it is the one I'm thinking of) and it does make me sad that someone "stole" their work, especially claiming it to be their own work. I'd hope the "community" would side with the true people that made them and put pressure on the thieves, but I doubt it. This is something that will happen with any type of subs no matter what, as many people have already mentioned. Subtitles are the most key part of anime and they have been hardsubbed to make it simple for the viewers, but what about nowadays? Wouldn't it be nicer just to freely distribute your work to be used by anyone/anyhow? Most angelic fansubbers say no I quite realize unfortunately. I don't feel like taking part in the Poll either, as I don't like the "Yes it is your fault" option. If I could I would choose "Yes subs should be freely available".

***GHDpro*** · 2006-01-20, 10:28

I think that, even if you don't like it, script "borrowing" is going to happen. Even with hardsubs.

However, in those cases I really would demand a group to credit the original provider of the scripts.
To just claim another group's scripts as their own is a really low thing to do for any group IMHO.

LytHka · 2006-01-20, 10:38

Emotions behind the concept of "stealing" scripts aren't very logical to those who have never produced a script of their own. No matter how much illegal or whatnot a translation or fansub script production is common sense tells us someone took the time to make it. I think it is only right that the original script creator can choose whether or not the script should be accessible to other people for a reuse/edit.

Itachikun · 2006-01-20, 10:46

Nicholi: Yea, you are right. But still, the original creators deserve some sort of acknowledgement or praise for their work. If people "steal" subs without giving proper acknowledgement to the original people who did the work, I can see that as just plain wrong. But giving the right people the credit that they deserve, then that I don't see wrong.

Quote:

Stop worrying about who and what gets the credit and be happy people are viewing something that you put your work into, hopefully because you wanted others to see it.

Didnt you just say that people would steal the scripts without giving the original people the credit is alright? How would they know that the original creators of the scripts worked on it, if no credit was given?
________
Toyota Venza

Dark` · 2006-01-20, 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicholi

I don't see fansubbers as owning anything. You do something for a community not for yourself. Stolen shouldn't be the right mentality you are taking here but unfortunately you believe you have some claim to controlling how/what/where/why your work is used as though you have a copyright on it. In the past before digital fansubbing was extremely popular "true fansubbers" simply released scripts that anyone could view and use and improve upon. Stop the bickering and just share the work. If someone can use your scripts a few years down the line to improve upon them or whatnot whats wrong with that? If someone takes them the next day and distributes it on a much wider base and claims it as their own work so what? Isn't the untainted super pure fansubbing principle meant to follow self-sacrifice and doing things for the community? Stop worrying about who and what gets the credit and be happy people are viewing something that you put your work into, hopefully because you wanted others to see it.

Subs should be shared not kept under lock and key for only the privledged.

Disclaimer: That would just be the ideal fansubbing which of course cannot exist because we own our subs and can't share them. As to reality, I love Tonatale's group (if it is the one I'm thinking of) and it does make me sad that someone "stole" their work, especially claiming it to be their own work. I'd hope the "community" would side with the true people that made them and put pressure on the thieves, but I doubt it. This is something that will happen with any type of subs no matter what, as many people have already mentioned. Subtitles are the most key part of anime and they have been hardsubbed to make it simple for the viewers, but what about nowadays? Wouldn't it be nicer just to freely distribute your work to be used by anyone/anyhow? Most angelic fansubbers say no I quite realize unfortunately. I don't feel like taking part in the Poll either, as I don't like the "Yes it is your fault" option. If I could I would choose "Yes subs should be freely available".

So in your first paragraph...you're basically condoning plagiarism? I mean, stealing might not be the right word, but taking someone else's work and calling it your own is plagiarism. And last I remember, this is something that is usually frowned upon. While technically it's true that fansub groups don't really "own" anything...but have you taken into consideration the time and effort that goes into translating, editing and qc'ing everything to make sure everything is in order? I mean, if the groups had asked beforehand, I can understand. But just taking it without asking isn't right. By that definition, taking something without asking first, it technically is stealing. Just that I prefer the word plagiarising in this case.

But whatever, everyone's free to their own opinion. If someone were to ask me nicely if they could use our script, I would probably say yes (if it were up to me). But I would sure be miffed if they just took our script without asking and passed it off as their own.

Tonatale · 2006-01-20, 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicholi

As to reality, I love Tonatale's group (if it is the one I'm thinking of) and it does make me sad that someone "stole" their work, especially claiming it to be their own work.

It's actually not one of the main group's I usually work with, but rather another group I helped on a onetime basis, but I'm happy for the praise.

I do thank everyone for their opinions. Mostly, I was curious the community's opinion. The situation actually surprised me more than upset me. I was genuinely shocked that people find nothing wrong with using another group's work in this manner. I'd like to think it wasn't a matter a pride or being credited for work (even though I worked on this release, my nick does not appear in the original credits anyway) but more idle curiosity that I made the poll. If the options seem unfair or loaded, I'll gladly edit them to simple yes or no.

EDIT: Or rather I won't because apparently I can't edit a poll, heh

Xellos-_^ · 2006-01-20, 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tonatale

I recently worked with a group to release a show in mkv with softsubs. Since our release, two separate groups have demuxed our script from the video, then encoded and released their own version using our scripts virtually verbatim. It's obviously our script because you can demux the script from one of their mkv releases and our notes and comments are still present in the .ssa. Their response was that since we used softsubs, they have the right to use our work without our permission.

Now, I realize fansubbing is technically illegal to begin with so the issue of who has what rights is actually a moot point, but I was wondering what other people's opinions were on this matter. Is it okay to steal softsub scripts and release your own version without crediting the original group?

If it is for personal use like someone stealing the subs to make R2 DVDR-fansubs for their own enjoyment. i don't see a reason why they can't. but when you steal someone script to realease your own anime, then it is not right. Also whats the point of releasing with somene elses script

View Poll Results: Is it okay to 'steal' softsub scripts without permission from the original group?
Yes, it's the original group's fault for using softsubs.	50	32.47%
No, all stealing is wrong.	104	67.53%
Voters: 154. You may not vote on this poll

2006-01-19, 22:50	Link #1
Tonatale Saizen staff Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: USA	Okay to steal softsub scripts? I recently worked with a group to release a show in mkv with softsubs. Since our release, two separate groups have demuxed our script from the video, then encoded and released their own version using our scripts virtually verbatim. It's obviously our script because you can demux the script from one of their mkv releases and our notes and comments are still present in the .ssa. Their response was that since we used softsubs, they have the right to use our work without our permission. Now, I realize fansubbing is technically illegal to begin with so the issue of who has what rights is actually a moot point, but I was wondering what other people's opinions were on this matter. Is it okay to steal softsub scripts and release your own version without crediting the original group?

2006-01-20, 02:57	Link #10
Tiberium Wolf Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Age: 44	Since you were using softsubs you were asking to be stolen! If you had it hardsubbed their would be less % of getting stolen coz you need to make more actions to rls your own version. Let's see... you have a mkv were you can extract the script. It's all typesetted, edited and timed. It's really there... all done and neat. All you need to is to mod the scrip credits then grab the video and hard sub it. Voila... your own version. PS: I wish everyone did hardsub anyway coz I dont like softsubs __________________

2006-01-20, 08:49	Link #14
Nicholi King of Hosers Join Date: Dec 2005 Age: 41	I don't see fansubbers as owning anything. You do something for a community not for yourself. Stolen shouldn't be the right mentality you are taking here but unfortunately you believe you have some claim to controlling how/what/where/why your work is used as though you have a copyright on it. In the past before digital fansubbing was extremely popular "true fansubbers" simply released scripts that anyone could view and use and improve upon. Stop the bickering and just share the work. If someone can use your scripts a few years down the line to improve upon them or whatnot whats wrong with that? If someone takes them the next day and distributes it on a much wider base and claims it as their own work so what? Isn't the untainted super pure fansubbing principle meant to follow self-sacrifice and doing things for the community? Stop worrying about who and what gets the credit and be happy people are viewing something that you put your work into, hopefully because you wanted others to see it. Subs should be shared not kept under lock and key for only the privledged. Disclaimer: That would just be the ideal fansubbing which of course cannot exist because we own our subs and can't share them. As to reality, I love Tonatale's group (if it is the one I'm thinking of) and it does make me sad that someone "stole" their work, especially claiming it to be their own work. I'd hope the "community" would side with the true people that made them and put pressure on the thieves, but I doubt it. This is something that will happen with any type of subs no matter what, as many people have already mentioned. Subtitles are the most key part of anime and they have been hardsubbed to make it simple for the viewers, but what about nowadays? Wouldn't it be nicer just to freely distribute your work to be used by anyone/anyhow? Most angelic fansubbers say no I quite realize unfortunately. I don't feel like taking part in the Poll either, as I don't like the "Yes it is your fault" option. If I could I would choose "Yes subs should be freely available". Last edited by Nicholi; 2006-01-20 at 08:59.

2006-01-19, 23:06	Link #2
Sergejack Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Above Age: 44	It's not a good thing, but it's not a bad thing either. 1) You should want people who love japanime to be able to watch those wich you worked on, and the more people release your work the more the people will get it (even if they don't know it's yours). 2) People are very hasty, the one question they always ask is "When will be the next release out?" and you know what? Since your team is the one to answer that, people will eventually know it's up to your them to answer. 3) When it comes to thievery, there is no perfect protection... don't think hardsub can prevent the most talented sub-thieves to steal your work. 4) You don't need more than those 3 reason, so 4 is useless

2006-01-19, 23:09	Link #3
Enragin_Angel ナマケモノ Join Date: Jul 2003	It's not okay, but what can you do about it. Not much difference between softsubs and hardsubs except that using softsubs makes it easier for those groups to steal your work. Hardsubs only deter the lazy stealers. You gotta ask yourself what your priorities are... Spreading your love for anime or spreading your name through the fansub community. I try to think of it as a flattering thing when another group steals my work over another group's work.

2006-01-19, 23:49	Link #4
DryFire Panda Herder Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: A bombed out building in Beruit.	It's not ok to steal subs and claim them as your own. Softsubs should not make it more or less improper.

2006-01-20, 00:03	Link #5
Laik Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005	At the end of the day, it's not cool to take something someone elese has put in work on and pass it off as your own. The only good that could really come out of something like that is the fact that the people who want it are getting it faster but it's just not cool to take credit for something you didn't do. I could see if they gave credit or something though but man.

2006-01-20, 01:08	Link #7
Maids! Maids! Maids! Tsuruya Cultist Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: San Francisco, CA	Given everything that happens around us, and what most of us participate in, what's "ethical" or "right" seems to become a "community standards" issue. I think it is OK for you to say who did what. Any credible group is going to respond. Sometimes, they say they're sorry. I've seen it happen. It's late and I'm a bit delirious. I hope I made myself clear. Don't be coy or present the issue as an abstraction. Let the community decide. Just make sure you can back your claims up. Moderators, please correct me if I'm wrong. I've seen some remarkable accusations on the Animesuki forums and a convincing apology. That usually goes a long way in fixing things. If they don't respond, well, then we know. Edit: Hmmmm. I just reread the poll. The question is fine. One of the answers appear to be a bit loaded.

2006-01-20, 02:32	Link #9
Enragin_Angel ナマケモノ Join Date: Jul 2003	I've had plenty of foreign language groups use my group's work as a base for translation without permission, I've had a certain group which I will not name steal scripts from our ftp and rereleased them with a xvid dvd rip, but I didn't really care. The foreign subs I don't mind as much, but stealing from our ftp was pretty low. But even then, it's not like they couldn't steal it from the hardsub so I got over it pretty quickly. Those scripts they stole weren't even fine timed so basically they were just too lazy to copy it or OCR it from the hardsub.

2006-01-20, 04:31	Link #11
naka Member Join Date: Dec 2005	don't let script stealing deter you from using softsubs -_-'... heck all my scripts are ripped and altered/edited and re-released one way or another... softsub/hardsub does not make a difference in script stealing... heck, i even notice groups hardsub JUST so people won't steal their script that easily... (yet their scripts are being ripped anyway) if people are that determined to rip off your script, there's nothing you can do about it, hardsub or softsub, timing is just what? a few more hours of work that anyone can trained up to do using a mkv softsub does not justify it being treated differently than the old hardsub avi/mp4 format, in credit wise, it would be nice for them to credit the original script contributors, but them doing it or not, with or without prior consent/permission from the original script contributors, is still up to them. It's a 2-edge-sword. If they don't credit the original, then most likely they don't care about people ripping their own work either, and there's nothing you can do to change that attitude/perspective. what matters the most is people are fundamentally watching your work, and isn't that the primary reason of why you get into fansub in the first place? to promote anime, have people watch your work, and eventually... buy the product when it's on shelf in r1? heck, i think softsub's the way to get your work to be seen as much as possible, a fan can practically buy a r1/r2 disc, load it into mpc, and load the script that you contributed to with little hassle (other than slight shifts of timing that can be done through the playback setting)

2006-01-20, 07:59	Link #12
LytHka Banned Join Date: Jan 2004	I can see softsubs being demuxed from fansubs' media containers as good and useful for only one thing: their usage with original untranslated R2 DVDs.

2006-01-20, 08:33	Link #13
exedore Zentradi Archivist Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: #anime-classic@zirc	As someone posts all his groups scripts on the website... It's cool. Really. As long as they give credit, and (hopefully) ask, it's not a big deal; it's something that has been going on since the start of fansubbing. Now should someone else be doing a public relese of this? Mmmmmmmmmmmm....that's iffy. I could see why they'd want to if they got a better raw (ie bought R2 DVD after the original group did a release with TV rips) or wanted an XviD AVI version, but even so, they should ask permission (unless the original group's long gone). FWIW, R2 buyers must love being able to pull scripts out of MKV files...easy way to sub their discs.

2006-01-20, 10:28	Link #15
*GHDpro* Administrator Administrator Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Netherlands Age: 45	I think that, even if you don't like it, script "borrowing" is going to happen. Even with hardsubs. However, in those cases I really would demand a group to credit the original provider of the scripts. To just claim another group's scripts as their own is a really low thing to do for any group IMHO.

2006-01-20, 10:38	Link #16
LytHka Banned Join Date: Jan 2004	Emotions behind the concept of "stealing" scripts aren't very logical to those who have never produced a script of their own. No matter how much illegal or whatnot a translation or fansub script production is common sense tells us someone took the time to make it. I think it is only right that the original script creator can choose whether or not the script should be accessible to other people for a reuse/edit.