2013-06-04, 19:58 | Link #183 | |
Master of Coin
Join Date: Mar 2008
|
Quote:
Were you even born yet? Also, the source I cited is Bloomberg, the most widely used news source for Wall Street, are you going to claim it is a communist front too? |
|
2013-06-04, 20:56 | Link #184 | ||
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 31
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
2013-06-04, 23:16 | Link #185 | |
Master of Coin
Join Date: Mar 2008
|
Quote:
|
|
2013-06-04, 23:39 | Link #186 | |
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 31
|
Quote:
In South Korea and Taiwan they have a functioning democracy now. The crimes of the KMT and the ROK authoritarians are remembered and openly criticized. I don't agree with what the Israelis are doing. But the CCP is still in power, still represses freedom of expression and assembly (often violently), and apologists like you are whitewashing its actions. Make a functioning argument next time instead of splitting hairs. |
|
2013-06-05, 01:24 | Link #187 |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
|
I think most of all the Tiananmen square incident was highly ironic. Let's not forget that the CCP considers it's "founding moment" to be the May 4th movement, a student protest movement that also took place in and around Tiananmen square and was also ruthlessly put down by military forced.
The "revolutionary" government of China came full circle and put down the very same kind of revolutionaries that would go on to form their own party 70 years earlier. It's like 1984, war is peace, truth is lies, and revolutionaries are counter-revolutionaries. At this stage, I don't see how any educated Chinese person could take the CCP's "revolutionary" credentials seriously. |
2013-06-05, 05:23 | Link #188 | |
A random-man
Join Date: Aug 2009
|
Quote:
Killing people is bad no matter what method you use,no matter what flag you are waving,no matter what reason you have in your mind. |
|
2013-06-05, 09:00 | Link #189 | |||
Master of Coin
Join Date: Mar 2008
|
Quote:
Quote:
Also, what hell were raised when SK and Taiwan were NOT democracies? READ: NOTHING~ They were America's best buddies. I, as joe the leader, can mow down thousands with machine gun fire, lock them up without trial, or rain death on their heads with drones, it will all ok cause I am friend with America, or a "functional democracy." Quote:
Last edited by monir; 2013-06-05 at 15:15. |
|||
2013-06-05, 11:18 | Link #190 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
|
The power of images. Most other such things don't have some really iconic imagry to go with them.
The image of a man facing off against a column of tanks is a powerful image. That is what stays with people.
__________________
|
2013-06-05, 15:51 | Link #191 | |||
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 31
|
Quote:
Quote:
SK changed after protests. Its government backed down and reformed to allow for more popular agency. The same thing happened in Taiwan. When we think of those countries, of course we should think of sacrifices that their people made. Relatively speaking, however, they are not as relevant anymore because their struggles have been concluded. But China is an ongoing thing. I'll reiterate, since it seems you didn't read. In the ROK, the liberals certainly remember figures like Jeon Tae-il and the students who protested against the dictatorship. This is discussed openly and plays a role in modern ROK politics. The daughter of Park Chung-hee has apologized to the victims of her father's regime. In Taiwan, the DPP and other opposition figures rallies around the past actions and sacrifices of the Taiwanese who opposed KMT dictatorship and suppression of regional culture. The KMT itself has also reformed. China is, however, a one-party state. Nobody can openly discuss Tiananmen (or any other atrocity, unless it was committed by Americans or Japanese) or assemble a group to make a demonstration. Even if people do remember the bad things, they just go "so what?", or "shut up, the CCP made China powerful!" What a slave mentality! Quote:
You just want us to shut up because the facts are inconvenient to your political conditioning. |
|||
2013-06-05, 16:43 | Link #192 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
|
Israel changes as well. Before there was no seperate Palastine, just areas of Israel with a lot of Arabs that kept fighting under the PLO. There was not a two state solution even on the table. Things changed there. But it also allows Israel to treat Palastine as another country and respond to attacks as if another country attacked them.
As one of out Israeli posters said, The reason Israel has not just killed on the Palastinians and taken the land is because they do not want to be responsible for genocide like what was done to them so many times in the last 2000 and more years.
__________________
|
2013-06-05, 19:33 | Link #193 | |||||
Master of Coin
Join Date: Mar 2008
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
All those apologies were done internally, on its own time. Taiwan took over 50 years to recognize their little Tienanmen. And they were allowed to do it on their own time. But China has to get lit up every year by the International Press for "remember Tienanmen" which does nothing but harden the government to RESIST apologizing. Quote:
Quote:
You just want to toot a little horn about how important is for everyone to bash China, no matter how much progress China made since 1989. I mean, I am not the one who necro a thread from 2009! |
|||||
2013-06-05, 21:51 | Link #194 | ||||||
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 31
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Don't like me complaining about Tiananmen and the larger problem that is the CCP's one-party rule? Well excuse me for being of Chinese descent and caring about that country. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
As for progress, it exists, but I don't see how the Tiananmen Massacre had to happen for it to succeed. Plenty of countries have experienced economic growth without killing protesters. Also, you are the only one to complain about a necro. Maybe, had I made a new thread, you would've said something like "lolol why didn't you just use the old one?" Again, your only motive is to get me to shut up. Just like the CCP itself. Even if you claim to to not support it, your way of writing follows its typical patterns. |
||||||
2013-06-05, 22:24 | Link #195 | |||
Master of Coin
Join Date: Mar 2008
|
Quote:
(And seriously, the current Chinese Government is technically Chaing Kai-Shiek's anyway, a one party capitalist dictatorship that America once hearty supported) You also ignore the fact when I pointed out Taiwan and SK were given their own time to reach their own conclusions, but China was not given the benefit of the doubt. They needed to be reminded every 5 minutes of Tiananmen, Tiananmen, Tiananmen. Quote:
Many of them ended up with dead protesters AND failed economies. China has gone a long way since 1900, to 1949, to 1989, to now. It is far freer society every step of the way. Quote:
|
|||
2013-06-05, 23:10 | Link #196 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada
Age: 40
|
Quote:
Quote:
About Egypt, Mubarak was told to go fuck himself and rightfully so when things went too far with his greed for power. Same thing for that pineapple face of Noriega in Panama. Same thing in Syria with Assad right now, yet China is among the few countries still supporting that scumbag against the majority of global public opinion. Blaming the West for everything...so easy and so hypocritical. Sometimes, it's better to look in one's own backyard for crap. |
||
2013-06-05, 23:30 | Link #197 | ||||||
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 31
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Also, those countries were changed by active popular demand. They were changed by people coming out and bitching about problems, not people supporting the regime or staying silent. Those countries became democratic and open despite government brutality, not because of it. The CCP is different from those conventional dictatorships in that it has repressed even that tendency for people to voice their demands illegally. The entire political culture is one of "oh oh oh we'll give the Party time to change, let's not mess with politics, we don't want China to become chaotic", etc. It says in one old text: "天子有諍臣七人,雖無道,不失其天下" But the Party doesn't have any dissenters willing to express themselves towards it anymore, because every time that happens, they get Tiananmen'ed. This leads to a very stagnant system. From the standpoint of economic growth, it was okay in Deng's time, but as China enters newer stages of growth, in order for progress to stay afloat, the government needs to be accountable. For this, political and ideological liberalization is needed. Better sooner than later. Unfortunately, the CCP simply won't budge no matter what happens. Meanwhile, corruption and inefficiency increase and the political superstructure fails to keep up with actual situational change. Quote:
People now often blame Gorbachev for letting the USSR die. In fact, the USSR was so stagnated, inefficient, and corrupt that in hindsight, it's surprising it lasted as long as it did. The exact reason why the Union in general collapsed was because of two things: The August coup and then Yeltsin. The August coup, first of all, was a completely reactionary plot to Gorbachev's plans that probably would've turned out more or less okay if he wasn't betrayed. The reactionary "Gang of 8" who did the coup were products of that stale regime I just described. On this count, the one-party system was to blame. Yeltsin was then the one who stood up to oppose the coup, and he succeeded because the Soviet people realized that they had had enough of the CPSU's BS. It wasn't because he was a great leader. In fact he was a drunkard and unfit to be president. His coming to office only shows how bad the political situation had gotten, that people would take a drunk over the corrupt CPSU officials. Again, the result of one-party authoritarianism lasting too long. Because Yeltsin wanted to be the president of Russia and not the president of the Russian Soviet Federative Republic (implying that he would be someone's subordinate), he declared independence from the USSR. This killed all hope of keeping the Union together, even though plans were, at that time, being made to totally overhaul the USSR. Yeltsin ruined the USSR's hopes at future existence, and he was an idiot who introduced the disastrous shock therapy, but such a person only arose because the situation had gotten just that bad. The collapse of the USSR into so many states was, therefore, also a result of political reform being delayed far too long. The USSR lasted for 70 years. The PRC has a history of only over 60 years. Yet many of the symptoms that existed in the Soviet system are present in 2013 China as well. Furthermore, if we compare the economic status of the USSR and the PRC in 1989, we will see that the USSR was already a developed nation. There was not such great potential for it to compete in Western markets with the same success as China. China had far greater potential at the time, and still does, due to its lower state of development. Quote:
Quote:
|
||||||
2013-06-05, 23:32 | Link #198 | ||||
Master of Coin
Join Date: Mar 2008
|
Quote:
Opps on Poland and Hungary though, I was thinking of the time when Radio Free Europe promised American support then U.S failed to materialize when the Soviets rolled in with the tanks. That happened a bit earlier than 1989. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The west, however, seem to be happy to install dictators/overthrown government if it suits them: Shahs of Iran, for example. P.S How is Libya, Iran, and Afghanistan doing? All Bastion of freedom and democracy and apple pie now, right? Think how much American tax dollars and blood would have been saved if China manage to stop U.S from invading Iraq, for example... |
||||
2013-06-05, 23:41 | Link #199 | ||||
Master of Coin
Join Date: Mar 2008
|
Quote:
Quote:
You mean like this one? Where the Government stood down against protesters and actually stopped the industrial project? There are dozens of protests happens all the time in China now, and no Tiananmen~ Quote:
Quote:
|
||||
2013-06-06, 00:07 | Link #200 | ||||
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 31
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I just saw a documentary about some village in Anhui that had a problem with a factory as well. They sent some village representatives to Beijing to go get the problem solved. Even though they got a positive response, nothing actually happened. Even if Xi Jinping actually wants to change something, I don't know if it is even possible given the extent of corruption. You think that it's only the businessmen? The party officials and military officers are also businessmen. They are in it for the money and don't give a crap about actually fixing stuff. Looks like the Soviet system to me, just with cell phones and computers. Quote:
Last edited by LeoXiao; 2013-06-06 at 00:34. |
||||
Thread Tools | |
|
|