[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

I thoght about it myself so I think I can explain. Kaisos means that Rosa and Natsuhi saw the same accidence, means Beatrice dies and Servant+Child dies is basically the same thing. i stopped after getting mindf**ked, also that meant Rosa lied in EP 3

If Rosa and Natsuhi witnessed the same event that would probably mean they were probably all together with Beatrice or the servant/child when it all happened. Why would Rosa lie? Does the fact that Rosa was dead have anything to do with the way Natsuhi presented her version of the events?

[Renall]

No one else exists to corroborate Rosa's story, and the red is vague. We're told that this happened in 1967 and that she is definitely dead. That's about all we know about Beatrice-1967's death.

The one snag here is that while Rosa is dead when Natsuhi tells her story in ep5, Natsuhi is alive when Rosa tells hers in ep3. Natsuhi never speaks up on this. I'm not saying she would if she knew (after all, calling BS on Rosa's story means she has to know something too), but it's a very strange coincidence. Could it turn out that Eva didn't actually kill Rosa and Maria after all? Well, I don't know about that.

But if Rosa is lying, why? Her story doesn't seem like the sort that she'd lie about, and she seemed pretty traumatized. What does Rosa gain from not telling the truth? If more people were there, why not say something? If Beatrice died some other way, why would Rosa be aware of it?

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

The most positive? You do realize that the thing you just said is just the slightest form of it. Greed is also the never stopping desire after all kind of things, it can be deeply bounded to the sin of Lust or Envy. Greed is also the sin which is the one that can be really destructive due never ending desire and wantig more after you got it.

Yes, but Greed also represents the drive to succeed. It can have positive aspects unlike every other sin. Except perhaps maybe (righteous) wrath. (Which is what Kanon gets, interestingly enough.)

Notice how characters that embody that sin are always presented in anime... Mammon is easily the most likable and complicated of the Stakes, and FMA's Greed is hardly a true villain...

Originally Posted by Volcanic

I've always thought that too actually Was just wondering. I've always though Shannon was a staker though, at least in EP4.

Probably, but like I said, I think she's being coerced.

Originally Posted by Renall

But if Rosa is lying, why? Her story doesn't seem like the sort that she'd lie about, and she seemed pretty traumatized. What does Rosa gain from not telling the truth? If more people were there, why not say something? If Beatrice died some other way, why would Rosa be aware of it?

I'd also point out that she never remarks on this in any other episode... especially Ep2, where you'd think it would actually come up given who they all think is on the island.

It's this disparity that keeps confusing me... It's the same thing with how in Ep2, Shannon seems convinced that she broke the mirror 'because Beatrice told her to' (if this has any inkling of truth at all) but in Ep1, she claims in her narration to have never met or seen Beatrice at all.

But since Beatrice can only affect events within the two days of the family conference, nothing should change before each game begins... it's so confusing.

The simplest explanation is that all those scenes are simply pure lies, but I don't like that... there's some element of truth in every single goddamn magic scene. No writer lies constantly.

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Yes, but Greed also represents the drive to succeed. It can have positive aspects unlike every other sin. Except perhaps maybe (righteous) wrath. (Which is what Kanon gets, interestingly enough.)

Notice how characters that embody that sin are always presented in anime... Mammon is easily the most likable and complicated of the Stakes, and FMA's Greed is hardly a true villain...

Every sin has its good and bad traits. It's not just greed that drives for positive aspects, envy can lead to that as well, without any form of gluttony there's no satisfication... which can be good if you don't overdo it. Even lust probably has some nicer side to it. It's not just greed.

Also, Mammon isn't easily the most likable and complicated of the Stakes. She just got the most screentime.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Maho Momo

Every sin has its good and bad traits. It's not just greed that drives for positive aspects, envy can lead to that as well, without any form of gluttony there's no satisfication... which can be good if you don't overdo it. Even lust probably has some nicer side to it. It's not just greed.

It's the way Greed is always presented... eh, not arguing this, I'll lose.

I'm surprised you didn't argue Pride, since I would have come out with that, to the ancients, that was the worst sin of all, but...

Originally Posted by Maho Momo

Also, Mammon isn't easily the most likable and complicated of the Stakes. She just got the most screentime.

No, read her TIPS again. They make a point of stating how special she is among her sisters.

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

It's the way Greed is always presented... eh, not arguing this, I'll lose.

I'm surprised you didn't argue Pride, since I would have come out with that, to the ancients, that was the worst sin of all, but...



No, read her TIPS again. They make a point of stating how special she is among her sisters.

It says that she's the most emotionally honest out of the sisters. It does say that she's the most different from her sisters, but I still don't think that she's the most complicated... in fact, emotional honesty just makes her sound more simple to me.

It also doesn't really necessarily make her the most likable either way though...

[scwizard]

Probably been posted here before, but I just found this linked to from /a/, it's spoilertastic:

Spoiler for episode 5 tea party:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbhIdEAogEw

[Marion]

Already been posted quite a while ago

[AmyElizzabeth]

Found something funny about Natsuhi's phone call

Spoiler for Conversation:

Dude: It's been awhile. Many years.
Natsuhi: WTF WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT I DON'T EVEN
Dude: I'm sad you don't recognize my voice/me.
Natsuhi: WHAT WHAT WHAT. WHAT DO YOU WANT?
Dude: I want you to remember.
Natsuhi: You're not ringing any bells.
Dude: Don't say that. After all...am I not your child?
Natsuhi: (freaking out) WHAT. WHO ARE YOU?
Dude: Don't say such sad things. Mother.
Natsuhi: (having a panic attack) WHAT THE HELL I DON'T REMEMBER YOU I'M HANGING UP NOW
Dude: I'm coming home to have my revenge on the day of the Conference. For your sin 19 years ago.
Natsuhi: .............
Dude: You remember now, don't you? Surely, you do.
Natsuhi: NOPE SORRY
Dude: Well, I remember. And I'm coming back to curse you for it. And for that reason, I'll call you Mother (in front of everyone - implied). [CLICK]

[k//eternal]

Something funny about it? That's pretty much exactly what it is already...

[Jan-Poo]

Yeah, lol... I was wondering that as well.

Anyway as soon as I finished Episode5 I did write something funny about Natsuhi's story. Well actually I describe pretty much everything that happened, the funny part is the ending sentence. I just imagined what Natsuhi would have wrote in her diary after all those events:

Spoiler for length:

Dear diary This last week-end

I've been tormented by my headache all the time
I had to deal with the family meeting
Of course I've been insulted by Eva
and Krauss just told me to step aside
I had to cover the fact that Kinzo is already dead
and all because of the incompetence of my husband
I always managed everything practically alone
and yet I just discovered he kept secrets from me
then late that night Battler found the secret gold
it would have been a wonderful thing if it wasn't for the fact that everyone claimed that Battler became automatically the new family head
of course I was pissed off! I kept telling that my husband was supposed to be the next head, and my daughter after him
and yet they kept on telling me that Battler was the next head and he also had the right to get half of the gold!
as if it wasn't enough they told me they wanted to see Kinzo
I had to struggle with everything I had to keep them at bay
my headache was killing me
then I received this call from a man who claimed to be my son
he told me that he knew my darkest secrets
and he demonstrated that
he also demonstrated that he was lurking around the island
he threatened me to play along with his mind games else he would tell everything
I cried like a child, I had no choice but to comply
As soon as I woke up the next day I received a call from that man... again
He told me that he prepared a nice "suprise" for me
and he also said that he kidnapped my husband
he demonstrated that
of course he threatened to kill him if I didn't promise to follow another stupid game
Before I could get a chance to recover from that shocking call I learned what was the surprise that man was talking about
my butler was dead
my sister in law was dead
my niece was dead
my nephew was dead
my own daughter was dead
I rushed to see the face of my only daughter, only to find out that every corpse vanished in nothingness
I don't even have a corpse to cry on
of course at this point everyone kept telling me that they wanted to see Kinzo
again I struggled with all I could to deny them the access to Kinzo's secret room
but they managed to enter anyway... from the window...
So I had to play the disgraceful "kinzo escaped" card
of course almost no one believed me
so that stupid Eva started telling me that I was suspicious and most probably the killer
In rage I retired to the guestroom
I shut myself in the closet because I had to follow that stupid game
I've been there in the darkness for an hour
but in the meantime Hideyoshi came inside for whoknowswhatreason and got killed
of course I only heard that because I was closed inside the closet
then everyone rushed inside the room and I had to stay still because how would I explain my presence there if they found me?
when everyone left and I was almost certain that I could manage to escape I was caught by Erika
at that point I've been accused of being the killer of my own daughter, and the killer of my own husband, among everyone else
I've been humiliated
somehow, I don't know how, Erika demonstrated that it could only be me
I got beaten up and down by Eva, while everyone watched without doing anything
then Erika, in order to find out why I did what I never did, stole my diary
She violated my privacy reading it out loud
by reading things that I wrote ages ago out of context she claimed that I never loved my husband
as if that wasn't enough she insinuated that I had sex with my father in law

Dear diary, I think it wouldn't be an exagerration to say this wasn't exactly the best weekend I ever had.

[gwy]

A baby who was thrown down the cliff has no way to remember that event. Clearly this act was accidentally observed by an ADULT. Only then the baby can learn about that occurrence when he/she grows up. The child would never know it if the adult chooses to conceal the truth.

Thus as far as EP5 is concerned, it is unimportant who the baby was. He/she might well be dead during that incident. The fact that there must be another adult who knows about the truth alone is sufficient to explain the events in EP5. The question is who is that adult.

[Jan-Poo]

Did the maid really die? It's not like you can really be sure about that. Even if she died, there might have been someone close to her, a relative or a friend.

Something that bugs me. Since Ryukishi said you could solve the mystery after episode4 and all the elements were already there, is this story really relevant?

[Ithekro]

That is mirrors, in a way, Rosa's story about Beatrice, makes you wonder if it is important. Or is Rosa is the one making/having someone make the call. What is confirmed about that scene...aside from this person is dead...was that person identified by name?

[gwy]

Also, I'm not sure if this was discussed before, since the backlog is HUGE since last time I checked it. But the closed room mysteries are really curious. Take the case in EP5 where Natsuhi was hiding in a closet. Usually, a culprit creates a closed room mystery in order to make people believe that the victim committed a suicide, since murder is impossible. But in EP5 (and other cases too), the situation apparently cannot pass as a suicide, and in fact no one believes that either. So the question is what could the killer possibly gain by going through the trouble of creating a closed room mystery?

Well Beatrice has her say, that the situation was created so as to make Battler believe in magic and witches. That's of course the fantasy "solution", but in the real world, it can hardly pass as a plausible motivation for the human killer. Could the killer honestly hope that by creating a couple of closed rooms, that all the adults will believe in magic and pin the murders on witches instead of looking for a human culprit?

By the revelations given in EP5, this is my theory: The culprit wishes to pin the murders on Natsuhi to enact his revenge. He firstly ordered Natsuhi to hide in a closet of the room, committed the act, and then created the closed room mystery. When the other arrived, some clever folk (Erika) should notice that this is a closed room, combined with the fact that this is clearly no suicide, leading to the ONLY possible conclusion that the killer must still be hiding in the room. A simple search will easily reveal her location and there would be NO way she can talk out of that situation. Note that a closed room is necessary, for otherwise there exists no motivation to examine the closets if the room is open. Even the killer himself, should he be playing innocent among the crowd, cannot suggest that or he will draw significant suspicion on himself.

Now in fact she was not revealed in EP5. Two cases are possible:
(1) The killer is not among the people we know and love. He is hiding somewhere and cannot reveal himself. This makes it impossible for him to suggest a search.
(2) The killer is among the people. The reason he does not want to take that role of detective is...well, he wants to maintain a low profile. If he were the one to reveal Natsuhi, Natsuhi will suspect that he is the man threatening her and therefore the real killer. That's a lot of trouble for him.

Just some thoughts on this.

[Marion]

It has to be #2. Knox Rule 1 prevents people who weren't introduced early in the story being culprits.

[gwy]

Oh, and the last possibility:

(3) The killer was supposed to be "dead" then and therefore could not show up at the scene.

[Kit]

That seems like a Battler response, but up till this point my impression is that once someone dies, as long as the corpse was observed by Battler, that person usually is dead, so corpse doubles, or falsified deaths seem unlikely.

Though I guess as long as it's "possible" it'll be allowed...eternal game much?

[gwy]

Personally I lean towards the third possibility the most, that the real killer is among the ones who have been "killed" up to that point. It all makes sense when you think about it, because it is most convenient for the killer to kill himself/herself at the beginning, so that he/she can go about killing unhindered. Otherwise, the killer will have a hard time creating alibi, and since all other people have alibi automatically because they always stick together (mostly), this puts the killer in a very difficult position. Thus, to kill off himself/herself in the beginning allows the killer to do whatever he/she wants, as long as it is not observed by someone.

Of course the downside of doing that is then you cannot play innocent and "direct" the crowd when needed, as in the case of EP5, where the killer needs "assistance" from another detective to expose Natsuhi.

The reasons for the other closed room mysteries abundant in all EPs can be all different. But the killer must have something to gain from it. Very curious indeed.

[Ithekro]

The only thing I can think of is to cover up Kinzo's death in 1984 (right?). But that doesn't make sense in all cases, only Ep3 really. Other than that, what is the point of the closed rooms...in story...not Meta world, since that seems to just be there to confuse Battler into thinking it was done by a witch. Though I suppose that works in the Real World...if only to deflect accusation because "There is no way for that to happen...I don't have a key" and such. However that requires either planning, or a really keen mind. We know they couldn't have planned for the typhoon, because seriously, the weather is not something to gamble on...especially if it is based on the real Typhoon Carmen...it only started about a week beforehand and was over Guam. Like Hurricanes, you can't accurately predict their course perfectly, and sure can't predict when there will be one starting. One doesn't say, "Hey I think there will be a typhoon this family conference. Let's plan to murder everyone and make it look like a witch did it. because no one can get on or off the island while the typhoon is here." Because that's just too unlikely.

So we can discount the criminals were planning for the weather. It may have been an opportunity however and someone moved on it quickly...but that means there was a plan to murder everyone...or at least the some of them...since there is always a First Twilight.

Speaking of...the First Twilight always seem to be the hardest to pin on anyone. The following murders can be carried out by various people, but the First Twilight seems different than the others. The only time I recall where there seems to be a decent suspect for the First Twilight is EP2 and Rosa...since she's shown to have been there before the other six people were murdered. That still doesn't prove it since Beatrice is also there...meaning potentially eight people being in the chapel before the murder, and the key to the chapel being in Maria's purse...throwing another problem on the problem.