Madoka Magica - Spoilers & Speculation

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Madoka's wish is going to make Madoka remember Homura, basically.

I wonder on that. What's the point of the static then? There's also the odd narrative that Sayaka gave in episode 4, which could be explained as foreshadowing but now with the other elements we've seen I wonder if there's some bigger picture we're missing the clues on.

A few things I've noted when rewatching:

Madoka says "Homu...." in timeline 4. She hasn't met Homura in that timeline, except that moment and at the very end when she sees Homura fighting Walpurgis.

Timeline 5 shows two incidents where Madoka "blanks" when she tries to remember Homura, and Timeline 5 opens with Madoka "dreaming" that she sees Homura fighting Walpurgis (which is the end of timeline 4). She also remembers Homura being in that dream.

Sayaka says at the beginning of episode 4 "Looking back on it, I was clueless. I didn't know about miracles or the price you had to pay for them." This feels odd because she is the only character that uses this form of narrative, and only this one time.

Sayaka's human body is recovered, and Kyoko keeps it alive. Outside of the macabre of a dead body in a hotel room, this feels important.

Kyoko and Sayaka's final "clash" happens in a big explosion cliffhanger. We only assume they are dead because Kyubey says so. Compare this to Mami where magazine interviews have the staff say (paraphrasing) "We wanted to make Mami's death as gruesome as possible to reinforce that she was absolutely dead".

Remember how in episode 1, Sayaka commented in a silly manner that Homura and Madoka were destined friends, brought together by the universe itself? Now think about Kyoko casually saying "maybe if we chop that Witch in half, Sayaka's Soul Gem will come out instead of a Grief Seed".

I'm sure the three prior comments will be passed off by others as unimportant, to me they seem too coincidental. An empty human shell, a casual statement about the Gem, a prayer for a miracle, and then a big explosion? Note that we don't see the barrier fade away either, because it cuts to Homura outside of it after she leaves with Madoka. Kyoko might be dead because her own gem broke, but I can't say Sayaka's fate (in this timeline) is conclusive.

Episode 1 also had something else interesting. The first time we see Kyubey in timeline five (episode 1), his shadow is in a plant. It looks remarkably like his shadow when he grants Sayaka's wish. Both times it looks like he has extra tails because of the way the leaves are patterned.

There's also the odd graphic in episode 8, when Sayaka turns into a Witch. There's a quick flash of a silhouetted Sayaka crying, holding her Soul Gem, but the shadow that comes off of her is completely different. The pose is different and the shadow isn't holding anything. There's also a weird "tail" coming off the shadow.

Kyubey's indifference to Gretchen wiping out humanity. Obviously he's supposed to be emotionless, but getting his quota from Madoka and then saying "oh well"? Madoka's energy might have been enormous but it isn't unlimited. Why would he not care about the future of his energy supply? And why did he expect Homura to fight Gretchen if he already had more energy than he needed? I feel like there's something more about Kyubey that we don't know yet.

Anyone who has seen Higurashi might be noticing a lot of similarities at this point.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Solace

Sayaka says at the beginning of episode 4 "Looking back on it, I was clueless. I didn't know about miracles or the price you had to pay for them." This feels odd because she is the only character that uses this form of narrative, and only this one time.

It's a small, irrelevant point (irrelevant to the point you're making, that is), but Madoka used the same kind of weird past tense narrative at the end of episode two, I believe (something to the effect of, "At least, that's what I thought at the time."). It doesn't make the use of this narrative any less weird, though, given that these two instances are isolated.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Akashin

It's a small, irrelevant point (irrelevant to the point you're making, that is), but Madoka used the same kind of weird past tense narrative at the end of episode two, I believe (something to the effect of, "At least, that's what I thought at the time."). It doesn't make the use of this narrative any less weird, though, given that these two instances are isolated.

Well, it's relevant to me. I had missed that due to skipping around the episodes a lot the other night. So I guess Sayaka wasn't the only one who used that odd past tense narrative. Either way it seems strange to me, because of the limited use. I could write it off as foreshadowing, but given the events that have happened since those narratives, they just stick out to me even more.

[Triple_R]

Solace is right that Gen has left certain scenes just inconclusive enough to pull off something unexpected, while also having just enough possible light foreshadowing (such as the form of narrative Sayaka uses in Episode 4) of such possible unexpected plot events to make them seem more acceptable than a true ass pull.

I'm not personally going to get my hopes up though because this is Gen Urobuchi we're talking about here, and I have my doubts that he'd give us a particularly happy plot twist. Furthermore, I'd be careful about reading much into visuals alone (such as Kyubey having all those tails in shadows in certain scenes) since that might just be SHAFT being SHAFT.

Still, I see where Solace is going in what he's saying, and should Gen decide to go the same way, I'd have no problem with it. Mind you, I did/do like Sayaka a lot, and that biases me a bit here.


Edit: There is one thing I want to add here. It's admittedly a gut instinct I've had for awhile now. It might be nothing, but I think something's up with Hitomi. She isn't used much in this anime, but when she is, it tends to be in very pivotal moments (her being part of that suicidal group in Episode 4, then in Episode 8 her telling Sayaka at the worst possible time of her romantic intentions towards Kamijou; telling Sayaka this in a rather odd deadpan monotone, etc...). I can't shake the feeling that Hitomi knows more than what she's letting on, and is working for Kyubey, or maybe is working for some mysterious third party.

[ThereminVox]

Originally Posted by Solace

Madoka says "Homu...." in timeline 4. She hasn't met Homura in that timeline, except that moment and at the very end when she sees Homura fighting Walpurgis.

I didn't want to bring this up because I didn't see anyone else mention it, but this has been driving me up the frigging wall for close to two weeks.

No matter how I spin the timelines, it doesn't work. It happens before Madoka contracts, which means it's before Homura comes back to school. Even if you think the whole sequence is a mishmash of many timelines we didn't get to see, that doesn't set it right.

Here's the possibilities as I see them... and of course I could just be completely off in my own world here:

- Madoka subconsciously remembers her, causing her to mumble her name. It's the cleanest narrative explanation, but it's a weird blink-and-miss-it way to hint that.

- Homura's been keeping Kyubey busy for days. This scene comes after Homura returns to class. Why would she wait until they met to deliver such an urgent warning?

- Healed with magic, Homura returns to class immediately. The scene takes place the night afterward. Possible, but why wouldn't she come back early again in TL5? Remember, TL1 and TL5 have her coming back on the "same" day.

- Continuity error. Repeat to yourself "It's just a show". An understandable one, given all the weird time shifting. So it's certainly possible.

- ThereminVox is an idiot. Likely. But probably irrelevant.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Solace

Well, it's relevant to me. I had missed that due to skipping around the episodes a lot the other night. So I guess Sayaka wasn't the only one who used that odd past tense narrative. Either way it seems strange to me, because of the limited use. I could write it off as foreshadowing, but given the events that have happened since those narratives, they just stick out to me even more.

Ah, whoops, I didn't mean to sound as though I was saying the quote itself was irrelevant. I was saying that the fact that Sayaka's quote wasn't an isolated incident is irrelevant, since Madoka having a similar line doesn't change how strange it is.

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

(her being part of that suicidal group in Episode 4, then in Episode 8 her telling Sayaka at the worst possible time of her romantic intentions towards Kamijou

That was episode 7, as a minor correction; Hitomi would probably have been too scared of the psychotic episode 8 Sayaka to even talk to her at all, and she'd have to be outright crazy to say 'I'm going to steal your man.' (I'd keep far away from episode 8 Sayaka, anyway. That head tilt at the beginning creeped me out a lot the first time I watched it.)

I've never thought about Hitomi knowing more than anyone else outside the puella magi circle... that would be an interesting twist. I hope that all the more minor characters (Hitomi, Kyosuke, Madoka's family) have a solid role in the last two episodes, even if they don't get much screentime. I like all the supporting characters and none of them have been used very much, so it would be nice if they're given at least some kind of part to play in the finale.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Furthermore, I'd be careful about reading much into visuals alone (such as Kyubey having all those tails in shadows in certain scenes) since that might just be SHAFT being SHAFT.

Oh, definitely. I'm sure some scenes are done certain ways just to be SHAFT, but on the other hand I can't entirely discount them since the show has done a great job of making every episode packed full of relevant visual detail. If I had to pick two visual details that really make me scratch my head, the first would be the image with the silhouette of Magical Girls lined up in Homura's house, and the second would be that shadow during Sayaka's Witch transformation that I mentioned in my prior post.

Originally Posted by ThereminVox

I didn't want to bring this up because I didn't see anyone else mention it, but this has been driving me up the frigging wall for close to two weeks.

Here's a fun one for you to consider. Where did Homura get all that research on Walpurgis, and how did she know what Kyubey's "real name" (Incubator) was?

Originally Posted by Akashin

Ah, whoops, I didn't mean to sound as though I was saying the quote itself was irrelevant. I was saying that the fact that Sayaka's quote wasn't an isolated incident is irrelevant, since Madoka having a similar line doesn't change how strange it is.

Yup I knew what you meant. No worries.

[ThereminVox]

Originally Posted by Solace

Here's a fun one for you to consider. Where did Homura get all that research on Walpurgis, and how did she know what Kyubey's "real name" (Incubator) was?

I just got a mental image of Homura doing her famous "freeze time and infiltrate the yakuza on a dark and stormy night" scene, only this time, she strides like a boss into the public library, and begins to pocket microfiche.

Good thing she can stop time, though. We all know what happens whenever Homura tries to do "research"...

Spoiler for researching:

[Shadow5YA]

I thought the multiple tail shadows and Kyubey's name was a reference to the nine-tailed fox in Japanese mythology.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

I thought the multiple tail shadows and Kyubey's name was a reference to the nine-tailed fox in Japanese mythology.

Yes, but it seems to have said nothing of real consequence about Kyubey himself.

At the end of day, Kyubey was not a supernatural being intrinsically tied to Earth (as that nine-tailed fox imagery may lead one to believe), but rather an alien.

[Snork]

I never bought this speculah, and I still don't. There's nothing in official material hinting that Madoka grows less strong willed as a side effect of Homura's wish. After all, in timeline 3 Madoka was still very brave and strong willed; but in timeline 4, she's already the fragile and meek girl we currently know.

Well, I don't buy this either. What I found disturbing is the idea that the wish to "redo the meeting with Madoka and protect her" might have been interpreted not as an action, but as a process. We've seen magic influence people's minds; likewise, it may influence other aspects of reality, such as probability of events. What if Homura's wish locked her in a perpetual time loop where she can't save Madoka exactly because it would interrupt her redoing the meeting and protecting Madoka?
Of course, one could justly argue that even protection as a process doesn't need to end with Walpurgis Night. I'm clutching at this counterargument for now, just in case.
As to Madoka's character, I think she had always re-estimated herself each time she became a Puella Magi, a hero of justice. No more being useless - I'm saving people here, yay! Based on this, her self-esteem rose significantly, and that's the Madoka we witnessed in ep 10. But no self-esteem is a shield against outer shocks - and the events Madoka goes through in TL3 break her as easily as they do in TL5 before she ever contracts, especially since they involve terrible endings for her friends and the brutal disruption of her newly found meaning in life. TL4 and the beginning of TL5 show us the "raw", original Madoka. But in TL4 she didn't have any time to feel like a hero... and the current timeline dumped all the psychobombs on her without contracting.

In a world where every wish goes awry, wouldn't a wish that truly granted the wisher what she wanted be a true miracle?

I'm afraid a granted wish would only add another death flag. As if her backstory didn't raise enough of them... Points like "I've finally managed to reach her with my feelings" or, even better, "I've finally protected her"... they are basically on par with "I'm not alone anymore".

Madoka says "Homu...." in timeline 4. She hasn't met Homura in that timeline, except that moment and at the very end when she sees Homura fighting Walpurgis.

I thought she remembered her as the transfer student from their class? That's the only explanation why Homura needed to change her look in the first place (unless she DID expect Madoka to have leftover memories from previous timelines ).

Sayaka's human body is recovered, and Kyoko keeps it alive.

KEPT, you mean? Besides, the body is a soulless corpse; Kyouko just kept it warm to avoid problems if Sayaka reclaims that body soon (although with enough magic, it wouldn't have presented any lasting problems, IMHO). Anyway, unless Homura retrieves the body soon enough, Sayaka's only going to be found and buried. Of course, it's somewhat of an achievement for a Puella Magi...

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Solace

Here's a fun one for you to consider. Where did Homura get all that research on Walpurgis, and how did she know what Kyubey's "real name" (Incubator) was?

As far as we know, the only information Homura has disclosed on Walpurgis Night to others is where and when it will happen. That can be easily tied to Homura's person experience, since she has lived through it at least four times before.

The better question is how Homura knows Kyubey's true identity when he was never shown to give her an explanation. From a narration standpoint, it serves no purpose because Kyubey had already given an explanation in the previous episode. That is why only the aftermath of Walpurgis Night is shown and not every battle in their entirety.

Most likely, Kyubey gave his explanation during one of the timelines, like Madoka's transformation in timeline 4. Homura is silent while Kyubey is already planning to leave. There is room for them to have had a conversation before the scene skip.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Yes, but it seems to have said nothing of real consequence about Kyubey himself.

At the end of day, Kyubey was not a supernatural being intrinsically tied to Earth (as that nine-tailed fox imagery may lead one to believe), but rather an alien.

The important part about the nine-tailed fox is not that it was a supernatural being but how the fox behaved. The fox is known for using its knowledge and wisdom for trickery.

In the end, Kyubey did deceive all of the girls.

[Angelmonster]

I never bought this speculah, and I still don't. There's nothing in official material hinting that Madoka grows less strong willed as a side effect of Homura's wish. After all, in timeline 3 Madoka was still very brave and strong willed; but in timeline 4, she's already the fragile and meek girl we currently know.

This has more to do with Homura as a person then any power/fate involved. homura is meek in the beginning and Madoka is strong. With each timeline they exchange personalities more and more. Madoka starting off as the strong one but in this latest timeline acting more like the Homura in Timeline 1.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

As far as we know, the only information Homura has disclosed on Walpurgis Night to others is where and when it will happen. That can be easily tied to Homura's person experience, since she has lived through it at least four times before.

The better question is how Homura knows Kyubey's true identity when he was never shown to give her an explanation. From a narration standpoint, it serves no purpose because Kyubey had already given an explanation in the previous episode. That is why only the aftermath of Walpurgis Night is shown and not every battle in their entirety.

Most likely, Kyubey gave his explanation during one of the timelines, like Madoka's transformation in timeline 4. Homura is silent while Kyubey is already planning to leave. There is room for them to have had a conversation before the scene skip.

Homura has a little more into on Walpurgis then just where it is showing up, you see that in her white-light-apartment with all of those floating pictures. She could have gotten them from the internet, afterall if Walpurgs is huge then there would be evidence of it floating around.

I have wondered how she knows QB is Incubator, all I can think of is that is the name SHE gave to QB. He is incubating the egg (magic girl) to become the seed (Witch) to power its anti-entropy plan. The question is does Homura know about the entropy or does she think QB is just trolling them to become witches for sinister reasons?

[Jimmy C]

But Kyubei called himself Incubator when he was talking to Madoka alone in ep9.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Yeah, but that's not what the article is going about. The article says that Madoka getting to remember all that happened between them in the previous timelines is a miracle itself, THE MIRACLE...

The weirdest thing is, that this miracle is going to awaken by Madoka's wish. Madoka's wish is going to make Madoka remember Homura, basically.

How can that be???? This is an obvious puzzle, and the key to the ending. I've got an idea, but I want to read other people's thoughts before posting mine.

Well...Madoka herself doesn't entirely not know Homura.

For all I know she may end up paralleling Homura's wish.....isn't that her strongest desire anyway? To save everyone?

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

What would happen if Madoka chose to become a MS for its own sake, and not for any wish?

Hasn't that already been considered near the start when everyone was still innocent to the truth of being a mahou shoujo? Won't the wish then be to become a PM?

But come to think of it....."I wish I never contracted"

How is Kyuube going to solve that one?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Angelmonster

This has more to do with Homura as a person then any power/fate involved. homura is meek in the beginning and Madoka is strong. With each timeline they exchange personalities more and more. Madoka starting off as the strong one but in this latest timeline acting more like the Homura in Timeline 1.

No, they aren't exchanging personalities. Madoka in the latest timeline is not acting more like Homura from the first timeline, she's just acting like herself, the real Madoka when she wasn't a magical girl. The proof is that Madoka still was pretty strong-willed and confident in the second and third timelines, and only in the fourth and fifth ones, when she's not a magical girl, acted more meek and insecure. So whether she is a magical girl or not is the factor that affects her self-esteem, not a weird personality exchange that was never even hinted in the series proper or additional official material.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Yes, but it seems to have said nothing of real consequence about Kyubey himself.

At the end of day, Kyubey was not a supernatural being intrinsically tied to Earth (as that nine-tailed fox imagery may lead one to believe), but rather an alien.

Demon, alien, Azatoth....they are all the same...tech is indistinguishable from magic at an advanced enough level.

Oh, definitely. I'm sure some scenes are done certain ways just to be SHAFT, but on the other hand I can't entirely discount them since the show has done a great job of making every episode packed full of relevant visual detail. If I had to pick two visual details that really make me scratch my head, the first would be the image with the silhouette of Magical Girls lined up in Homura's house, and the second would be that shadow during Sayaka's Witch transformation that I mentioned in my prior post.

Wouldn't Oktavia's form explain that?

[hyperborealis]

Excellent post. Lots of nice catches.

Originally Posted by Solace

I wonder on that. What's the point of the static then?

Yes--Homura has just perforated QB, and then berates Madoka for always sacrificing herself, when the animation suddenly flashes this bizarre and unexplained image:



What is this?

Originally Posted by Solace

There's also the odd narrative that Sayaka gave in episode 4, which could be explained as foreshadowing but now with the other elements we've seen I wonder if there's some bigger picture we're missing the clues on.

Yes. Sayaka has just commented on how everything now is different, now that Mami has died and she and Madoka are caught up in a magical world nobody else knows about. Why then does Sayaka say, "The world changed a long time ago. / We should've discovered this earlier?" What earlier time long ago is she talking about?

Originally Posted by Solace

A few things I've noted when rewatching:

Madoka says "Homu...." in timeline 4. She hasn't met Homura in that timeline, except that moment and at the very end when she sees Homura fighting Walpurgis.

Wow. I never noticed this until you pointed it out here. Very nice catch. This reinforces the idea that Madoka remembers Homura across the timelines. Somehow that means that she, like Homura, has a privileged position outside of time. What that position is, of course, is what we're all speculating about--whether it's a basic emotional connection between herself and Homura, such as what Hitomi suggests back in the first episode, or some quasi-divine perspective she gains perhaps when she eventually makes her wish.

Originally Posted by Solace

Note that we don't see the barrier fade away either, because it cuts to Homura outside of it after she leaves with Madoka. Kyoko might be dead because her own gem broke, but I can't say Sayaka's fate (in this timeline) is conclusive.

Very nice. Contrast with Sayaka's death in timeline 3, where the barrier clearly dissolves after Homura blowes Octavia up.

I really think Sayaka is coming back. And it won't be in a magic-wand waving, Madoka Omnipotent manner--not if all this other stuff--Kyoko preserving the body, Kyoko sacrificing herself for Sayaka--is somehow necessary for that happy conclusion.

Originally Posted by Solace

There's also the odd graphic in episode 8, when Sayaka turns into a Witch. There's a quick flash of a silhouetted Sayaka crying, holding her Soul Gem, but the shadow that comes off of her is completely different. The pose is different and the shadow isn't holding anything. There's also a weird "tail" coming off the shadow.

Although this Sayaka is not "real-world" Sayaka, since the "real-world" Sayaka is sitting on the bench in the train station, and will fall to the ground just prior to her witchification. Is this standing one, with the strange shadows and tail, the incipient witch-Sayaka? Probably we're already into allegorical / witch-world animation phase, and here it's hard to know what is symbolic and what is simply deliberately bizarre, part and parcel of the essential strangeness of the witch's barrier.

Originally Posted by Solace

Kyubey's indifference to Gretchen wiping out humanity. Obviously he's supposed to be emotionless, but getting his quota from Madoka and then saying "oh well"? Madoka's energy might have been enormous but it isn't unlimited. Why would he not care about the future of his energy supply? And why did he expect Homura to fight Gretchen if he already had more energy than he needed? I feel like there's something more about Kyubey that we don't know yet.

Yes. What does Homura mean when she tells him she knows his "true form," in that scene where she calls him "Incubator?"

Nice catch, by the way, in your question as to just how she knows this is his true name.

English speakers have a hint, since QB contains the central phonemes of "Incubator." On this line, I wonder why significant technical terms, such as "Grief Seed," are referred to in English in the Japanese-language version?

Originally Posted by ThereminVox

I didn't want to bring this up because I didn't see anyone else mention it, but this has been driving me up the frigging wall for close to two weeks.

No matter how I spin the timelines, it doesn't work. It happens before Madoka contracts, which means it's before Homura comes back to school. Even if you think the whole sequence is a mishmash of many timelines we didn't get to see, that doesn't set it right.

I wonder if this odd scene displaces a similar scene where QB appears in Madoka's window in another timeline? I can't find it, but I seem to recall there is such a scene. So Homura would appear there in order to shoot QB to prevent him from contacting and contracting with Madoka. Thus the QB body that Homura is holding while she warns Madoka from taking candy from strangers promising miracles.

Originally Posted by Solace

If I had to pick two visual details that really make me scratch my head, the first would be the image with the silhouette of Magical Girls lined up in Homura's house, and the second would be that shadow during Sayaka's Witch transformation that I mentioned in my prior post.

Golly, could you please remind me where the silhouette image appears? I'd like to go look at it to see what made you interested in it.

I never bought this speculah, and I still don't. There's nothing in official material hinting that Madoka grows less strong willed as a side effect of Homura's wish. After all, in timeline 3 Madoka was still very brave and strong willed; but in timeline 4, she's already the fragile and meek girl we currently know.

Still, the implication of a wish to protect someone rather than to be protected is that roles be reversed: the weak becomes strong, and the strong becomes weak. And if you compare timeline 1 to timeline 5, especially, say, the sequence in which Homura is introduced to the class and she and Madoka walk to the nurse's office, the two girls do seem to have switched places.

It is possible to account for this reversal by pointing to Homura's wish rather than the absence of Madoka's wish.

Both explanations work. I prefer making Homura responsible, since that continues the theme of unanticipated negative consequences of wishes Sayaka has already exemplified. Homura gets to protect her friend, but then Madoka ceases to be the same person who had impressed Homura into wanting to protect her in the first place. A nice catch-22, that precisely illustrates the folly of wishes...

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

I prefer making Homura responsible, since that continues the theme of unanticipated negative consequences of wishes Sayaka has already exemplified. Homura gets to protect her friend, but then Madoka ceases to be the same person who had impressed Homura into wanting to protect her in the first place. A nice catch-22, that precisely illustrates the folly of wishes...

But that doesn't account for her character development. I mean, all the staff, Gen, Shinbo, the series director, say Madoka has to grow up. But, if her insecure persona is an effect of Homura's wish, then it wouldn't be up to her to grow up from it.... But it is, because her insecure and meek personality is her real personality, so it's her responsibility to overcome that flaw. Homura's wish has nothing to do with it.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that because of Homura's wish, their roles have somewhat reversed. But roles and personalities are not the same thing. Meek and insecure Madoka is the real Madoka, not the product of Homura's wish. Besides, it's not as if Homura longs for the cool Madoka who saved her life. She just wants Madoka no to sacrifice her life. That's her wish!