Character Discussion - Lelouch

[Kittenlady]

Yeah, at the very least it's canon that Ougi was a pretty shitty leader. Him as PM is ridiculous.

[roriconfan]

^ Maybe Ougi was made PM exactly because Lulu wanted shitty leaders to be in charge in general. All part of his anarchy scheme.

[Laurcus]

*Hopes he doesn't offend anyone with his next post* Well for starters, Villeta and Ougi can go die in a fire. That would please me. As for the other black knights, I've said it before and I'll say it again. It wasn't what they did but how they did it. Imo every BK that was directly involved in the betrayal should have been dishonorably discharged at the very least. (assuming the truth of this ever came to light) Think about it. Yes they said they were fighting for Japan, but if I recall, Japan was officially part of the UFN. As such Kaguya was the leader of Japan. They did that betrayal without telling her, (in fact they covered it up) and let's not forget they wanted to hand him over to Britannia.

Officially at that time the UFN and Britannia were at war, even if there was no battle going on right away after Suzaku nuked the place. So in fact anyone that planned the betrayal was also betraying Japan basically because they were just butthurt about Lelouch. I would personally say that Kallen was innocent, mainly because she didn't plan it and was just kinda caught up in it.

I'm also not too happy with Toudoh tbh. The whole cloak and dagger politics, along with the ambush itself isn't something I thought a samurai would stoop to. If him or the other BKs had told Schniezel something like "Thanks for the info, now get off my ship before I lose my temper. We will handle this in our own way instead of sipping tea with you" Then I would have had a LOT more respect for them.

[Ten-Go]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

@Ten-go
i'lll need you to explain that better
i didnt get what you want to say

All information Black Knights had about evil-Zero was from Schneizel, Villetta, and some words from Ougi. What made them sure that it was actually the very truth? Just imagine the situation - Zero arrives somewhere in Britannia, and tells the royal family that Charles is a bastard who wants to make the world frozen solid, and yes he has OMG GEASS (photos of Charles with something red in his eyes included), etc etc ; and they say - OH SHI* thank you Zero you have opened our eyes wide, thank you thank you, oh such a tragedy, oh no... We will arrest him and give to you, surely....

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by azul120

Ok, I've obviously missed out on a bit, so I'll add here.

Lelouch didn't try explaining, at the very least during the betrayal because he didn't get a chance: the BKs were ready to pump him full of lead.

What's there to explain? He did ordered Euphie to massacre the japanese.

I mean how would you do it?

"Yeah John, that was an accident."

"What happened exactly?"

"I told her a joke."

"Which was?"

"That I could force her to kill Japanese people"

There are times when excuses or explanations simply wouldn't cut it or not worth it. Lelouch never explained it to Suzaku either even after they linked up forces together.

Here's why many of us call bullshit on Ohgi, and by extension Villetta:

The reason why Lelouch made Ougi 2nd commander was because he was at heart their leader. Whenever there were doubts Ougi could easily squash it with a simple sentence. Even when Lelouch rescued them from jail there were a lot of bad tempers but Ougi again easily stopped them.

Schenizeil was really not getting through to Diethardt and the others during that Parley meeting. Even with the tape they accused him of faking it (which in reality he didn't like it or not) Sure he was seeding doubts but they only broke when Ougi came in though I must admit his reasoning was pretty bull.

[bladeofdarkness]

after thinking about it for a while, i have devised a formula that would allow Z-R to take place, in the same way that it did, but which i would personally accept as a workable concept

rather then all that bullshit about taking on all the worlds hate, they could have put more emphasis on the LYING part.
it would require Lelouch to admit to something along the lines of:
"this world sucks"
"its a place where millions of lives can end at a push of a button, and few would care"
"where the strong CAN utterly butcher the weak, and nothing would be done"
"its a world in which exist evils so big, that justice can't prevail against them, and that they only way for good men and women to combat them, is to become evil themselves"
"a world, where the BIGGEST BASTARD WOULD ALWAYS WIN"...
"this world is a rotten piece of shit"

"mankind deserve better"
"people deserve to live in a world where justice prevails and any evil, no matter how great, can be overcome by the work of good men and women"
"people deserve the hope that tommorow would be better then today"
"people deserve a better world"
"even if this better world, is nothing more then a lie"

Lelouch doesn't CHANGE the world
he doesn't "destory and create" the world
he simply FOOLS people into believing its a better place then it actually is
with the HOPE, that if enough people believe it, and ACT like it, it might BECOME a better place.

now THAT is a concept that i could accept because it:
A)doesn't actually ignore the cold hard reality that the final episodes actually showed, namely that the world really IS a rotten place where the biggest bastard wins, and good people can't hope to defy them (Lelouch conquers the world within months of becoming "completely evil", and if he hadn't shnizel would have)
B)doesn't actually try to pretend that he could erase the past decade of war in a few months (i prefer it if the show doesn't try to insult my intelligence), but rather serve as nothing more then giving mankind a hope for the future
its a symbolic act, nothing more, but because its such a powerful symbol, it has an effect on people everywhere
C)it fits in PERFECTLY well with the Lelouch's whole "people lie for good reasons" that he used to counter charles's idea

the problem is, that the ROOT of this plan, does NOT revolve around Lelouch so much as it does around zero
Lelouch simply symbolizes a greater darker concept (the brutal injustice of the world) without having to go down as the worst tyrant in history to achieve this, and hence, does not require to massacre people left and right just to provoke hatred
he just has to show the world, that the biggest bastard always wins, rob people of any hope for a better tomorrow, and then be proven WRONG by "Zero"
the tyrant dies, hope is restored, and people can go on living their lives under the belief that no evil is too big to overcome

and while "Zero", or at least the concept that he represents would live on forever in people's hearts, Lelouch himself would be forgotten fairly quickly, because he himself wouldn't necessarily be what people hated
he would be EXACTLY the same as the damocles in that regard
an abstract concept instead of a person
an evil so great that it seemed justice can't prevail against it
until it did

[azul120]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

What's there to explain? He did ordered Euphie to massacre the japanese.

I mean how would you do it?

"Yeah John, that was an accident."

"What happened exactly?"

"I told her a joke."

"Which was?"

"That I could force her to kill Japanese people"

There are times when excuses or explanations simply wouldn't cut it or not worth it. Lelouch never explained it to Suzaku either even after they linked up forces together.

You just contradicted yourself. If you're going along with the "joke" explanation, that goes against Lelouch ordering Euphie to do it. His Geass broke out of his control at the worst possible moment.

[roriconfan]

You could just say "I accidentally brainwashed her".

[Arbitres]

His geass became permanent, actually. It doesn't/Didn't break like Rai's geass. (Which vanishes with over use.)

The Kamine Island scene where the ground lights up with the sigil may have forwarded his geass mutation. I wouldn't know, all I know is that the Bloodstained Euphemia event was one of the biggest misfortunes on both Lelouch and Suzaku.


Lelouch broke down because when he did agree to help with SAZ, his geass became permanent in his left eye, and since he was speaking during the 'example', it was actually a command. "I could make you do anything. Like kill the Japanese.")

Suzaku broke down because he lost the girl he loved, and his best possible route of cleansing himself of that awful self-pity. All and all, it did indeed end bad for them at the time.


"Evil can rise from the best of intentions, and good can from the worse of intentions." As C.C.'s says. Though the bloodbath was absolutely horrid.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by azul120

You just contradicted yourself. If you're going along with the "joke" explanation, that goes against Lelouch ordering Euphie to do it. His Geass broke out of his control at the worst possible moment.

Nice try bud but the end result was that he ordered Euphie to massacre the japanese whether he liked it or not.

To say that it occurred because of a joke would be the truth but I doubt anyone would seriously accept that and let him off the hook. In fact I don't think anyone would accept the truth, hence why Lelouch never bothered explaning the truth to anyone aside from CC.

[Kittenlady]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Nice try bud but the end result was that he ordered Euphie to massacre the japanese whether he liked it or not.

To say that it occurred because of a joke would be the truth but I doubt anyone would seriously accept that and let him off the hook. In fact I don't think anyone would accept the truth, hence why Lelouch never bothered explaning the truth to anyone aside from CC.

Plus his own pride. He'd probably rather be a villain than someone who just makes stupid mistakes (I'm fairly sure he's got an inferiority complex in there somewhere). He probably wishes he had done it on purpose, if only because he'd feel less guilty about it.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Nice try bud but the end result was that he ordered Euphie to massacre the japanese whether he liked it or not.

To say that it occurred because of a joke would be the truth but I doubt anyone would seriously accept that and let him off the hook. In fact I don't think anyone would accept the truth, hence why Lelouch never bothered explaning the truth to anyone aside from CC.

Please don't change the argument on me. Your first line said he ordered her to kill the Japanese, which insinuated he did it on purpose.

[fukarming]

Originally Posted by Kittenlady

Yeah, at the very least it's canon that Ougi was a pretty shitty leader. Him as PM is ridiculous.

I am shocked that the CG staff would make Ougi as PM. I am not happy that Ougi is alive at the end but I can live with that. PM? I cannot believe it when I watch the last episode. I think he is just shaking hands with suzaku-zero and Nanally because he is related personnel. Kaguya would make a much better leader than Ougi.

That makes me think, it seems that anyone from the BK can be the PM. If Ougi declined being PM, Tamaki probably would be next in line for the position.

I really hope they make a continuum on the code geass universe, just to show Ougi a painful death, or at least a shameful dismissal as PM.

[Arbitres]

Kaguya would make a much better leader than Ougi.

Best part of the manga adaption. No knightmares? Lame. Kaguya being Prime Minister instead? ALL IS FORGIVEN! -_- yes, that's how much I hate Ohgi... Actually, is Ougi or Ohgi? :/??

Tamaki probably would be next in line for the position.

And Japan would be full of stupid, drunk people in a week. I bet money on it.

I really hope they make a continuum on the code geass universe, just to show Ougi a painful death, or at least a shameful dismissal as PM.

What Code Geass needs.


I hate to admit it, but Nagisa Chiba would make a better Prime Minister then either of them. Tohdoh? Sure, but I doubt he'd quit his job in the military.


Lelouch should have made a pre-plan about getting someone COMPETENT to do the job. Or maybe he hated Britannia's ideology so much, he allowed someone incompetent to get the position.


Lelouch left the world in the hands of lolis and idiots. Great, leave it in the hands of little girls and incompetent idiots liable to click a big red button that reads 'self-destruct' and they go "OOOHHH, what does this button do?"

:|

[ZeroSama]

They really should have just finished the series at the halfway point of the last episode with Lelouch ruling the world as a tyrant and skipping all the ZR bullshit.

I know its a downer ending(for some) but hey atleast where not having our intelligence insulted with the director trying to convince us that Lelouchs death was a heroic/noble sacrifice necessary to bring about world peace. It wasn't.

Instead of the magical my little pony ending(i love you Charred Knight for using that phrase for the ending, its spot on) where good conquers evil they could simply have the moral of the story that when enough crazy stuff happening to the most well meaning of people can turn them bat-shit insane(cause those 2 boys definitely were).


I know i could say that the last 4 eps should be erased from exsistance for the sheer amounts of EPIC facepalming moments, but i'm not, because Lelouchs' awesome victory speech when he conquerors the world and Ohgis' LOL face almost make it worth it. Almost.

[bladeofdarkness]

actually, ougi would be PERFECT for the role of PM
diethard said it himself, that ougi is not suited for the role that diethard wanted him to play, but was only suited to protecting
in other words, he lacks the ambition to go out and do great things (like zero, or shnizel)
he didn't even create the original black knights (kallen's brother did) and only became its leader to try and keep naoto's dream alive

ougi isn't a leader, he's a bureaucrat
he doesn't lack the ability to run the goverment, but he does lack the ambition that could lead him to become another genbu kururugi
and in a post Z-R world, mabye thats what you'd WANT in a leader
someone who doesn't rock the boat

[roriconfan]

Originally Posted by ZeroSama

They really should have just finished the series at the halfway point of the last episode with Lelouch ruling the world as a tyrant and skipping all the ZR bullshit.

I know its a downer ending(for some) but hey atleast where not having our intelligence insulted with the director trying to convince us that Lelouchs death was a heroic/noble sacrifice necessary to bring about world peace. It wasn't.

Instead of the magical my little pony ending(i love you Charred Knight for using that phrase for the ending, its spot on) where good conquers evil they could simply have the moral of the story that when enough crazy stuff happening to the most well meaning of people can turn them bat-shit insane(cause those 2 boys definitely were).


I know i could say that the last 4 eps should be erased from exsistance for the sheer amounts of EPIC facepalming moments, but i'm not, because Lelouchs' awesome victory speech when he conquerors the world and Ohgis' LOL face almost make it worth it. Almost.

I agree but at the same time the facepalming ending is what contributed to the overhyping of the series overall. A series that wants to pass for major always needs to end in non-standard way.

[ZeroSama]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

I agree but at the same time the facepalming ending is what contributed to the overhyping of the series overall. A series that wants to pass for major always needs to end in non-standard way.

Eh i can't really see how this type of downer ending can be anything other than non-standard given the current trend in anime towards happy or atleast reasonably fullfilling endings.

Lelouch would actually be portrayed as the villain that he actually was in the last arc, rather than a saint in disguise.

Especially since that at the end given all the main character deaths(lol you thought they died, but they really didn't, but guess what? Now they are)and the countless dead innocents things would have actually gotten worse and nothing would have been resolved. Yes there's world peace but its a peace enforced through fear.

It'd be the ultimate troll ending from Sunrise and i would LOL at how the fans would rage. It would be truly memorable.

And you know the best thing about it? It would still make more sense than Zero Requiem.

[fukarming]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

actually, ougi would be PERFECT for the role of PM
diethard said it himself, that ougi is not suited for the role that diethard wanted him to play, but was only suited to protecting
in other words, he lacks the ambition to go out and do great things (like zero, or shnizel)
he didn't even create the original black knights (kallen's brother did) and only became its leader to try and keep naoto's dream alive

ougi isn't a leader, he's a bureaucrat
he doesn't lack the ability to run the goverment, but he does lack the ambition that could lead him to become another genbu kururugi
and in a post Z-R world, mabye thats what you'd WANT in a leader
someone who doesn't rock the boat

I couldn't agree to it. While Ougi may be (and that's a big may) a good leader in peaceful, uneventful time, the CG world post ZR is anything but uneventful. I can only imagine the economy of the whole world is crippled after the great war. All the weapon producing industry are shutting down, soldiers becoming unemployed...etc. CG world needs a capable leader to bring the people out of economic downfall. While Schneizel is around and perfectly capable of doing so, I can only imagine Schneizel would be busy helping Britainnia rather than Japan. Besides, Japanese people, who is under Britainnia oppression for so long, probably do not want a Britainnia advisor to tell them what to do.

To me, the whole weak link in ZR is that Lelouch put the entire world onto the shoulder of Schneizel. If Schneizel involve in some sort of accident, the whole CG world will crumble in a second.

While Nagisa Chiba is a capable person, she is too busy chasing around Toudou to be prime minister. Besides, her rank as someone who join BK midway is probably not as high as Tamaki who is with the BK at the very beginning. Remember that Japan is a society all about seniority and not ability.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by fukarming

To me, the whole weak link in ZR is that Lelouch put the entire world onto the shoulder of Schneizel. If Schneizel involve in some sort of accident, the whole CG world will crumble in a second.

Schneizel is not involved in accidents. Accidents are involved in Schneizel.

...Echem.
That aside, there's always Kanon. I'm sure he is the true mastermind, and because he's in love with Schneizel, and Schneizel is in love with world peace, and Kanon is in love with Schneizel's ideals, things would work out somehow!