Character Discussion - Lelouch

[azul120]

Actually, Ohgi struck me as rather incompetent in R2.

[Kittenlady]

Originally Posted by azul120

Actually, Ohgi struck me as rather incompetent in R2.

There's no 'struck' about it, he was completely incompetent. Not just in R2 either; he was a crappy terrorist leader before Zero stepped in.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Kittenlady

There's no struck about it, he was completely incompitent. Not just in R2 either; he was a crappy terrorist leader before Zero stepped in.

maybe its because he used to be a TEACHER
he didn't create the terrorist cell, he only became its leader after the guy who DID create it got killed
he doesn't have the ambition it takes to become a leader, but that doesn't make him useless (far from it)
not everyone can be Lelouch you know
he's suitable for running an organization, but not so much for leading it, which even diethard points out
an organization can't consist entirely of large hams center figures, and you always need people who can take care of the paperwork

which is why he might be well suited for being MP
he's not a leader, he's a bureaucrat

[Kittenlady]

Then he should have gone back to being a teacher. Or, possibly, an MP, but certainly not Prime minister. No one's asking him to become Lelouch. To be perfectly honest, Lelouch would probably be a bit too impulsive to be a proper polititian.

Now, a Prime Ministerial government might spread the power more than a presidential one, sure, but leadership skills are still required for the job, especially in a time when the economy needs building back up (just look at Gordon Brown, and he didn't actually do too bad a job, he just isn't presentable enough, which is something that would definitely happen to Ougi). Ougi doesn't have leadership skills, he'd be terrible. Hopefully Kaguya's the one really doing all the work.

[Ten-Go]

Lelouch is a charismatic-leader type. Works perfectly for any country existing or gone.

[Kittenlady]

True enough, he'd have certainly been popular. I just think he was too crazy by the time he became Emperor. Plus he let's personal issues cut into important decisions too often.

...Y'know, Hitler was very charismatic, too. Sorry I just couldn't help myself.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Kittenlady

Then he should have gone back to being a teacher. Or, possibly, an MP, but certainly not Prime minister. No one's asking him to become Lelouch. To be perfectly honest, Lelouch would probably be a bit too impulsive to be a proper polititian.

Now, a Prime Ministerial government might spread the power more than a presidential one, sure, but leadership skills are still required for the job, especially in a time when the economy needs building back up (just look at Gordon Brown, and he didn't actually do too bad a job, he just isn't presentable enough, which is something that would definitely happen to Ougi). Ougi doesn't have leadership skills, he'd be terrible. Hopefully Kaguya's the one really doing all the work.

ougi is a war hero and the former leader of the black knights.
and even after zero took over, he was still second in command of the group after it went global.
if its presentation you want, it doesn't get much more impressive then that.

[Ten-Go]

Originally Posted by Kittenlady

...Y'know, Hitler was very charismatic, too. Sorry I just couldn't help myself.

Hitler is no match for Lelouch in the field of personal intelligence =)

[roriconfan]

^ Hitler didn't have a geass eye as panacea to his problems either. Imagine him not committing suicide but allowing to be captured and taken for trial at Nirenberg, along with his leaders. When his time to speak would come, he would look at the crowd and would simply say: Accept me!

Well, cheers for the 4th Reich! All hail Hitler Vi Britannia!

Wait, he could also order the Jews to kill themselves and thus save the trouble/expenses too.

And let's not fool ourselves. Lulu's capabilities were always 90% geass and 10% charm.

[Ten-Go]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

And let's not fool ourselves. Lulu's capabilities were always 90% geass and 10% charm.

Disagreed. Completely. Re-watching the series recommended.

[bladeofdarkness]

Lelouch had always been great at making up crazy plans and pulling them off
its far from 90% geass
but his geass DID afford him plans that he couldn't otherwise pull off
i'd say that its 100% Lelouch, but that his geass allows that 100% to be WORTH considerably more then it otherwise would be

one thing that is certain though, is that without geass Lelouch would never have been able to accomplish everything that he did in the end
which is another reason why i hated the final arc
Lelouch goes from USING geass as part of resources, to completely depend on it

[hero147]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

actually, ougi would be PERFECT for the role of PM
diethard said it himself, that ougi is not suited for the role that diethard wanted him to play, but was only suited to protecting
in other words, he lacks the ambition to go out and do great things (like zero, or shnizel)
he didn't even create the original black knights (kallen's brother did) and only became its leader to try and keep naoto's dream alive

ougi isn't a leader, he's a bureaucrat
he doesn't lack the ability to run the goverment, but he does lack the ambition that could lead him to become another genbu kururugi
and in a post Z-R world, mabye thats what you'd WANT in a leader
someone who doesn't rock the boat

In essence, Ougi isn't a man who thinks for himself. He's a puppet, someone who doesn't rock the boat.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by hero147

In essence, Ougi isn't a man who thinks for himself. He's a puppet, someone who doesn't rock the boat.

more like:
"you can trust him to feed your goldfish, just don't expect him to buy them a bigger tank"
he wont try to change the world, he'll simply try to make sure it keeps running

he could run a country during times of peace, when all he has to do is insure the wheels keep turning, but he might not be the best suited for leading it to conquer other places in order to expand its territory

[roriconfan]

Originally Posted by Ten-Go

Disagreed. Completely. Re-watching the series recommended.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

Lelouch goes from USING geass as part of resources, to completely depend on it

Without geass, Lelouch would be dead from the very first episode of the very first season.
Without it, none of his plans would work. Period!
Without it, the nobles wouldn't have accepted him.
Without it, he would have hurt or even killed his sister.

I remain firm. Lelouch is almost zero (literal) without geass.
And if you disagree, try to describe how could he achieve all that WITHOUT geass.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Without geass, Lelouch would be dead from the very first episode of the very first season.
Without it, none of his plans would work. Period!
Without it, the nobles wouldn't have accepted him.
Without it, he would have hurt or even killed his sister.

I remain firm. Lelouch is almost zero (literal) without geass.
And if you disagree, try to describe how could he achieve all that WITHOUT geass.

not ALL that, but SOME of that
ep 2 season 1 (earliest example)
by taking command of ougi's terrorist cell in ep 2, he is able to defeat a much larger force using only his tactical skills
its true that he wouldn't get a KMF to begin with if not for his geass
but once there, his geass had nothing to do with his commands and his ability to predict clovis's moves
but if you want something completely geass free - breaking toudo out of jail
the battle in ep 13 when he almost captures cornellia
hell, even in narita he only used geass to avoid killing to guards who he could have just as easily shot, and the rest was his planning and nothing more

its true that geass allows him to do certain things he couldn't do otherwise
but once he is IN a position to do those things, his geass plays no part in them
a less capable tactician with a geass wouldn't be able to do what Lelouch did
its not his geass that allows him to do that, its his geass that allows him to be in a position to do that

[Ten-Go]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Without geass, Lelouch would be dead from the very first episode of the very first season.
Without it, none of his plans would work. Period!
Without it, the nobles wouldn't have accepted him.
Without it, he would have hurt or even killed his sister.

I remain firm. Lelouch is almost zero (literal) without geass.

Okay. Once I had to swim against the sea-stream for survival, does this mean that without an ability to swim I am zero (sounds nice, I am Zero, lol) ? I disagree.

For the rest - if to talk about the very complex of Lelouch's plans, yes, geass is an important part. But there are pretty much situations where Lelouch has to handle something without geass - like tactical battles, for example. I don't think that it is possible for ordinary person to defeat britannian army units having only a bunch of yesterday-civilians.

[fukarming]

@ roriconfan

While most of Lelouch's plan involve the use of geass, it is his use to maximize the geass efficiency makes him a capable person. There is nothing wrong to use whatever resources you have to acheive greatest effect. If Lelouch, having the geass ability, make a plan which geassing would make the job alot easier but he decided not to use geass, that didn't make him smart. On the other hand that makes him an idiot.

[Kittenlady]

Most of Lelouch's (earlier) plans were helped by his geass, but didn't rely on it. That little distinction is quite important. He said he was planning on rebelling without it anyway, and that it just speeded his plans up.

[roriconfan]

Ok, but he would still be dead on episode 1 without it... both seasons.

[Betteroffer]

To add to Blade's points, there were the parts in R2 where Lelouch orchestrated the kidnapping of the Tianzi and the attack on the Geass Order. True, he apparently used his Geass to learn some of the specifics of Xing-ke's plan from some soldiers he caught, but C.C. brings up "truth serum" for some inane reason, thus implying that he could have gathered that information by more conventional means, since fictional truth serum is very reliable.

He also established numerous alliances with other countries earlier in the series, sending C.C. as a negotiator to the CF, even though she stayed behind because of Mao, and there was the fact that he got all the BK their Mid Season Upgrades via India rather than the central government of China, meaning that his using Geass on the Eunuch ambassador (the one Xing-ke killed in the embassy) was not a factor.