Character Discussion - Lelouch

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by youngde

I've taken the liberty of quoting a very wise and ancient source in my response to this statement:

'E's passed on! [Lelouch] is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-LELOUCH!!

youngde, signing off.

i would have phrased it "THIS IS AN EX-PROTAGONIST"
but otherwise, this is pretty much it

[Zetsubou Bunny]

Originally Posted by youngde

I've taken the liberty of quoting a very wise and ancient source in my response to this statement:

'E's passed on! [Lelouch] is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-LELOUCH!!

youngde, signing off.

Heyyy you quoted me. 8|

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

SS3 ?
what does that mean ?

and no

Selection for Societal Sanity

[Laurcus]

Super saiyan 3 perhaps?

SUPER SAIYAN LELOUCH!!!! I can see the fanfictions already...

[morbosfist]

*takes five steps* "I'm... not.. cutout... for these kinds of ridiculous heroics."

[vk531]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

a peace treaty would create world peace
what more can you ask

Actually, I kinda doubt that. Seeing as the leaders of half the world's military hate Lulu's guts and think he's an unmatched traitor, any treaty he signs won't result in lasting peace but probably just a cold war. Mind you, the one we saw was between countries that hadn't actually fought against eachother in any major war, to the best of my knowledge. Britania, on the other hand, has fought everybody and doesn't have the best reputation around the world, so the outcome of a potential cold war would probably be quite different.

Oh, and about the Schneizel thing, didn't Lelouch say in one of the final episodes that he had to start a conflict, so he could smoke his brother out of his hiding spot in Cambodia and deal with him once and for all? If he just attacked Toremo (that was the name of the institute, right?) blondy and his ambiguously gay companions would just leg it to another country willing to build WMDs for them. That's somewhat consistent with his early ideology that anyone who dares pick up a gun with the intent of killing somebody else is fair game, themselves. So, the military casualties don't really count as much if they guarantee a conflict free society for tomorrow. (Not my own views on the matter, of course.)



I'm not trying to restart that gem of an argument here, just thought these were interesting points to bring up.

[Sol Falling]

Actually, regarding how the Black Knights thought of Lelouch, their initial reaction was more sadness and disappointment than hatred. I can kinda see where you're coming from with the unmatched traitor thing after his 'you were all my pawns!!1! lololol' speech in 19, but in fact there was a period of time after that (specifically while Lelouch was doing reforms in Britannia and before he tried to 'join' the UFN, correctly understood by everybody to be in fact a proposal which would let him comandeer it) when the Black Knight's were supportive of his actions and seemed receptive to the idea that he was a good guy after all.

As for Cambodia and the Torono institute, that was in fact a Britannian facility specifically researching/building Fleija and Damocles under Schniezel's leadership. That is to say, it wasn't an independant nation 'harbouring' Schniezel, it was under his control in the first place. While there is indeed no guarantee that an attack on Schniezel there necessarily would have succeeded, I don't think Schniezel's specific location was at all unknown and neither did he have anywhere else to run to.

[vk531]

It doesn't have to be a jihad type of hatred for them to start stockpiling weapons, though. Just the mistrust and threat of geass might be enough. I'm talking about the black knights btw, not the UFN leaders.

And when Damocles was going down Schneizel seemed pretty sure that he'd be able to find another place to make flejas if he just made it out alive. If I recall, it was when they were going down the elevator and he was dalivering his "we don't really need the little crippled kid in the garden" speech.

[bladeofdarkness]

that was because "many countries would be willing to help the man who killed the evil emperor Lelouch"
if Lelouch wasn't so hated, shnizel wouldn't have any other allies to turn to
in fact, if lelouch didn't attack the UFN, shnizel would be COMPLETELY isolated

as for the black knights
how long would it take to prove to them that he is still on their side ?
he DID just tear the old britannian social system down
and he can show them that he didn't use geass on any of them
even the whole "you're all nothing but pawns" speech could be explained away (kallen would probably be more then willing to help on that one)

the process would take more TIME
but it would not require mass murder on the "rivers of blood" level to achieve

[azul120]

Yeah. As I've said before, Lelouch had become a Death Seeker at that point.

[bladeofdarkness]

its more then simply a matter of him being a death-seeker
its a shift between fixing the world, and CHANGING it to fit HIS vision
in the last arc, Lelouch had adopted a "utopia justifies the means" mentality that he did NOT have before ep 22
everyone one likes the concept of "utopia" as an IDEA, and the problem with that mentality lies in the REST of the sentence
because if building a utopia was something that could be achieved simply by planting trees and recycling, then anyone would do it

Lelouch (as well as Shnizel and Charles and Marianne) come to the conclusion that the concept of "a perfect peaceful world" is something that justifies ANYTHING in order to accomplish
i hear a LOT of people who say stuff like "Lelouch's "utopia justifies the means" plan, is less evil then charles's plan"
or "it would have killed less people then shnizel's plan"
and in doing so, they miss the whole POINT

utopia justifies the means is NOT A PLAN
ITS A MIND FRAME
and once this mind frame is adapted, it would mean that you would litteraly do ANYTHING in order to create a utopia
and if that includes eating babies, then thats what you do. because after all "utopia justifies the means"
a man who BELIEVES that utopia justifies the means, HAS NO LIMITS to what he'd do
in other words, if lelouch NEEDED to murder half the world in order to create his "utopia", then thats what he would have DONE
because thats what it MEANS by "justifies the means"

[azul120]

True as that is, it was an excuse for him to fulfill his death wish. Had he not went past the Despair Event Horizon, he would have never envisioned the Zero Requiem.

[bladeofdarkness]

depression is NOT the same as deciding that your VISION of the world is more important then anything or anyone else.
Lelouch USED to have limits
which was a GOOD thing, because someone like lelouch NEEDS a leash
Lelouch was basiclly "shnizel with attachments" (or shnizel was "Lelouch without attachments")
once the attachments are lost (or rendered, unimportant), what you get is basiclly shnizel with a different plan

[azul120]

But depression can lead people to abandon what remains of their sanity. See also: Suzaku.

Like everything else with the show, Lelouch had also fallen victim to Flanderization at that point.

[bladeofdarkness]

its not simply a case of Flanderization
its the ADDITION of another, relatively new, character trait
which is the aforementioned UJTM mindframe
a depressed Lelouch deciding that killing the one person who used to be his REASON FOR LIVING is justified to accomplish his new VISION of the world
thats not Flanderization (an exaggeration of a specific existing character trait)
thats practicly derailment

[azul120]

Which is true enough. Though he decided that his fixation on Nunnally had cost him too many times in the past, and that there was no turning back at that point, as Suzaku had told him right after she suddenly appeared.

[bladeofdarkness]

what exactly did he HAVE for her to cost him THIS time ?

the moment you say that she was in the way of his masterplan, then you remove the concept of "Despair Event Horizon" from the equation
he's not doing zero-requiem because he feels he no longer has any reason to live
he's doing it because he WANTS to do it, and nunnaly (his reason to live) is in the way of that masterplan

you see the problem
once you say that zero-requiem is something he did because he crossed the Despair Event Horizon, then it means that once nunnaly was shown to be alive again, he once again HAD a reason to live
which raises the question of why he decided to go through with it anyway, and even agrees to KILL nunnaly if she gets in the way
the answer being, that he didn't DO zero-requiem because he was in a state of Despair
he did it because he WANTED to do it

i'll agree with you on the notion that crossing the Despair Event Horizon caused him to lock himself in the world of C in ep 20
but his actions following that moment, are not a product of despair, but rather of a different mindframe
and thats when Lelouch, as a character, goes from dark anti-hero, to visionary villain, and lumps him in the same corner as shnizel and charles

[azul120]

He created the Zero Requiem partly as an excuse to die, similar to his plan to lock himself in the world of C with Charles. By the time Nunnally revealed herself, there was no turning back as far as I can tell, as Lelouch had already burned his bridges with the Black Knights and the UFN, and Schneizel had already set Damocles in motion, which had just nuked Pendragon. In other words, no turning back, and Suzaku gave Lelouch a Get A Hold of Yourself to that effect.

[bladeofdarkness]

really ?
and so agreeing that he might have to KILL NUNNALY is part of that ?

the question is simple
WHY is lelouch doing zero-requiem
why is it so importent that he would kill nunnaly to accomplish it

[Revolutionist]

There are those that would strongly disagree, but Zero Requiem and pretty much all the events following the episode in C's world make absolutely no sense. I don't care if Lelouch was to die by the end of the show, the way it happened was horribly executed. The writers are either lazy as fuck or just incompetent. Take your pick.

Those are the only plausible explanations for that last arc of the show.