(L) Kamisama Dolls

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

Or make it inconclusive enough for a season 2, I mean there's still the Hyuga problem

I don't expect it to be completely conclusive.

But I do want the Mahiru/Hibino arc closed out neat and tidy here. Preferably with Mahiru getting away to fight another day, but retreating for now.

Some plot threads will have to be left hanging, and I accept that, but the current arc I would like to see a resolution to in case there isn't a Season 2.

[thundrakkon]

The last scene with Kyouhei brought tears to my eyes. I can sense the frustration he felt, to continually lose things from a source (the village) that he could not control. It was a source of all his pain, and now, it looked like it was about to give him more pain. He just could not take it anymore, and he was about to have his second (or was it third) mental breakdown.

At that moment, Magatsuhi struck him in the back of the head, blood splattering all over the place. If Kyouhei was not the protagonist and if not for the title of the next episode, you would have thought that Magatsuhi just killed Kyouhei. I mean, not many people survive (or at least have permanent brain damage) with a blow to the back of the head and blood squirting all over the place.

I can't wait for the next episode. Kyouhei will finally control Kukuri and show everyone there first-hand why he is considered the strongest Seki (although I doubt he will be conscious when he is).

[blitz1/2]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

The last scene with Kyouhei brought tears to my eyes. I can sense the frustration he felt, to continually lose things from a source (the village) that he could not control. It was a source of all his pain, and now, it looked like it was about to give him more pain. He just could not take it anymore, and he was about to have his second (or was it third) mental breakdown.

At that moment, Magatsuhi struck him in the back of the head, blood splattering all over the place. If Kyouhei was not the protagonist and if not for the title of the next episode, you would have thought that Magatsuhi just killed Kyouhei. I mean, not many people survive (or at least have permanent brain damage) with a blow to the back of the head and blood squirting all over the place.

I can't wait for the next episode. Kyouhei will finally control Kukuri and show everyone there first-hand why he is considered the strongest Seki (although I doubt he will be conscious when he is).

Kyohei is so epic that he can control Kukuri while in a coma. xD

[Kunagisa]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Mahiru is a superb antagonist.

I wouldn't call her an antagonist. Everything she has done, including the negative consequences beyond her expectation and controll, is governed by impulse. In Freudian term, she is just a big id-blob.

For that reason, I think as viewers the reaction toward is supposed to be bipolar like her personality as well. I strongly disliked her the last two episodes, because she is just as bratty as a generic kid with a big toy. This episode I find her badass despite losing control because her pride is very effectively shown by the heavy sweat drops (or were there tear drops too) and everyone's 'r u srs' faces. This type of character is the most provoking as there are rarely middle ground in between the extremes.

In general, the portrayal of these characters getting caught in the middle of everything and being extremely conflicted without going into the 'emo' zone is what made this series successful. I remember people saying you can't take this series seriously because of the random non serious moments in the heat of the battle, which I was thinking the opposite since those gaps are nice breathers to take everything in. When a climax comes, the changes in pacing allows you to eat in all the intensity at once going HOLY BATMAN BALLS THIS IS RIDICULOUSLY WIN!!!!!ONE111

Looking like my favorite manga chapter's going to be animated next. Setting expectation super high next week now.

Season 2 better be in the works as we have no bloody idea what's going on with Amaterasu in the anime (you can't introduce as awesome as that and have it just wrap in a cocoon and getting owned in flashback).

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by stuopidget

I wouldn't call her an antagonist. Everything she has done, including the negative consequences beyond her expectation and controll, is governed by impulse. In Freudian term, she is just a big id-blob.

None of that, or anything else that you wrote, means that she's not an antagonist.

She is intentionally creating serious and severe problems for the protagonists. She has committed several acts that have objectively harmed others simply to feed her vanity, and those acts would land people in jail. She is posing a serious threat to the safety and well-being of numerous people, including the innocent and vulnerable Hibino, who has no business being caught up in Seki warfare.

Mahiru is most definitely an antagonist, imo. There's no rule saying that an antagonist can't be sympathetic, or likable, or have more than one side to his/her character. Heck, the Batman villain Two-Face is clearly an antagonist, but he had a rather obvious bipolarity going on as well.

[Kagayaki]

IMO, the one thing the next episode has to wrap up is Kyouhei's relationship with his past and with his abilities. Which is exactly what the episode title suggests will happen. So long as that's taken care of, I'm perfectly fine with everything else being left hanging.

My guess is that any sort of final battle that's the culmination of Kyouhei's character development in this show would be more effective with him conscious, so I hope he wakes up fast.

@Triple_R: I agree. At first, I thought it seemed a bit unnatural to introduce her so late in the series and have her hijack the entire plot, but they've done a great job of tying her in.

@Stupidoget: I think characters can be antagonists yet still be sympathetic characters, and that's the category I would put Mahiru in. Her being an antagonist doesn't mean the audience has to hate her, it just means she's in conflict with the protagonists and that's driving the development of the story.

[Serp]

Wow, this episode was good from start to finish....it was almost overwhelming. I just have to say the pacing in this show is freaking awesome; they always know when to end it. I really can't wait for the next episode.

You know, I don't really credit Voice actors too much but damn did Kyohei's VA really put some emotion into his breakdown. I must admit...I got caught up in that moment. I was kinda peeved that they put the flash back there just because I know Kyohei was about use curba stompa on Maghatsuki but upon rethinking it I find that it really strengthens Kyohei reasoning.

I'm still kinda pissed at him, though. The teacher really didn't want Kyohei involved and he was really kinda just meddlesome in that situation. I wish it would have been about Aki...but I guess he wouldn't have to take care of Aki if that was the case.

So Aki could have left when he wanted to....I don't get his reasoning? I doubt he knew that this thing with Mahiru would go down this way.

I was really surprised to see Utao's twin give a crap about Kyohei. I didn't realize he had any feelings towards his bro.

This summer was filled with good anime: Kamisama Dolls, Tiger and Bunny, Kamisama no memchou, and Stein's gate. The last one I did not watch but people be raving.

[Texas84]

The first half of this really bored the heck out of me but the second half was 'Wow!' Glad I stuck with it for the characters. Yeah, um, the music changed a bit at the end.

[Kunagisa]

@Triple_R and Kagayaki

Ah, you see. I haven't kept up with the thread, I don't know what others have mentioned, but I'm just going by what I can identified as an antagonist, which this series so far has only shown 'the village' as one.

I find it unfair to the other antagonists that you can just label challenges, roadblocks, and threat provider to main cast classifies as an antagonist, there are a lot of protagonists that can do that as well.

Her acts of endangering society can be said for any young seki in the show (recklessness and uncontrolled usage of kakashi). The only "danger" moment was she send Hibino flying, which if you really want to push the parallel is more like accidental murder (I wouldn't call all those people who actually committed such act antagonist). From a pure choreography stand point, she was never in any danger either (Mahiru had plenty of time to catch her before she falls, but hey our dear MC just happens to be right there).

As for my comments regarding her, I never draw relation between how the audiences see her and her role (at least that wasn't my intention?). The whole point of that was that she is a great character, and nothing more. Instead of why we can't accept her as an antagonist, I find you guys are too hard pressed to fit her in the antagonistic role. She is just an impulsive character to provide a climax point. To me, you just generalize a really broad definition of antagonist and just fit her in there just for the sake of saying she is one ...

TL;DR: She's great character, but not antagonist as my interpretation of the plot never considered her to be one.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by stuopidget

I find it unfair to the other antagonists that you can just label challenges, roadblocks, and threat provider to main cast classifies as an antagonist, there are a lot of protagonists that can do that as well.

Well, there is such a thing as "primary antagonist" and "secondary antagonist", just like there is "primary protagonist" and "secondary protagonist".

Her acts of endangering society can be said for any young seki in the show (recklessness and uncontrolled usage of kakashi).

I don't think that's entirely fair. Very few, if any, of the other sekis have kidnapped anybody.

From a pure choreography stand point, she was never in any danger either (Mahiru had plenty of time to catch her before she falls, but hey our dear MC just happens to be right there).

If Mahiru had plenty of time to catch her, why was she in such shock over Hibino about to fall to her demise?

The whole point of that was that she is a great character, and nothing more.

Thus far, she's only a great character in the context of being a great antagonist. In other words, we haven't seen her do anything, yet, other than fill an antagonistic role (outside of flashbacks, admittedly).

Can that change? Sure. But for now at least, she's definitely an antagonist.

Furthermore, I think that the anime itself wants viewers to perceive her that way.

Mahiru's mannerisms, her style of speech, and her confrontational and dangerous nature: This all powerfully points towards "hammy antagonist" to me. She's pretty charismatic.

I think that by not accepting her as an antagonist, people may fail to appreciate just how effective and entertaining of a protagonist challenge this anime has put forward in Mahiru.

For example, I mentioned before how the anime has done an excellent job of capturing Mahiru in imposing, menacing, and scenery-chewing poses. I also mentioned how Episode 12 had some nice facial close-ups of her, showing her most malevolent and threatening side. I'm not sure if these directorial and characterization touches are fully appreciated unless people accept that Mahiru is an antagonist.

Otherwise, I find that people on this thread have a tendency to drastically downplay the chaotic and destructive things that Mahiru does, as well as the darker side of her character. And I think that when people downplay her more villainous side this way, you just don't get the same appreciation for what a fun antagonist she is.

To me, you just generalize a really broad definition of antagonist...

No, Kagayaki and I are both using the standard definition of antagonist. Going by that definition, Mahiru is an antagonist.

[Om Nerabdator]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

Kyohei is so epic that he can control Kukuri while in a coma. xD

lmfao mate i loved that line

[Zodiamaster]

Wow nice episode, the last minutes were amazing.

Seeing Magatsuhi going berserk reminded me of the Eva-01.

To comment further, well in this episode there was plenty action and blood(can't say I dislike that).

Spoiler for Spoilers:

First Hibino and her abuser-to-be conveniently got distracted in chit-chat until Kuuko came and rescued her, providing some nice service along the way.

Then Kuuko killed that old man.

Until then things were so-so.

Right after she appeared Mahiru showed a bit of her bad side, her emotions and her village-related trauma got involved lost control of herself momentarily again(enough to almost kill Hibino), but she does sigh in relief when Kyohei saved Hibino(for like 0.5 seconds until she realized it was Kyohei saving Hibino)....

<raises anti-flame shield>

...Which once again shows that while a little dangerous she doesn't actually mean seriously hurt people unless she goes nuts.

Then Utao also showed us that one can be plenty dangerous too in spite of looking all innocent and being part of the good guys, first by throwing a half dead doll on top of a group of people including herself, and then indirectly aiming Magatsuhi attacks at onlookers and given the scene it's quite likely that someone actually got killed.

Then last, Kyohei also went crazy though he got batted in the head, still he apparently manages to get in control of Kukuri from probably beyond the grave.

Summary: Going crazy is good, bring it on.

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

The last scene with Kyouhei brought tears to my eyes. I can sense the frustration he felt, to continually lose things from a source (the village) that he could not control. It was a source of all his pain, and now, it looked like it was about to give him more pain. He just could not take it anymore, and he was about to have his second (or was it third) mental breakdown

Tbqh I found it sorta funny.

Right when Kyohei flips and starts ranting about the village, Magatsuhi smacks him behind the head like "ok stfu, go to bed".

Originally Posted by stuopidget

TL;DR: She's great character, but not antagonist as my interpretation of the plot never considered her to be one.

Well if you stick to the dictionary definition, she is an antagonist.

The antagonist opposes the protagonist/s, regardless of their moral attributes(like being good or bad).

If the story was told from Mahiru's point of view Kyohei and the rest would be the antagonists.


Mahiru is an antagonist, which doesn't necessarily mean she's pure evil and permanently intends to cause damage and hurt people and get them raped, as some argue(though I realized that talking about Mahiru to those guys is like talking about America to a communist, it's only got bad points).

[Kunagisa]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, there is such a thing as "primary antagonist" and "secondary antagonist", just like there is "primary protagonist" ... using the standard definition of antagonist. Going by that definition, Mahiru is an antagonist.

Let's just agree to disagree then.

We definitely could on and discuss the definition of antagonist and Mahiru role in Kyouhei's character development and so on, but neither you nor I probably care enough for this. Since we both like the character (and I do appreciate seeing this from a different angle), I would rather just leave the disagreement on that note as I fail to see either of us could reconcile our perspectives just on a fundamental basis.

[blitz1/2]

Utao: You killed my cookies, NOW YOU WILL DIE!!



xD

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by stuopidget

Since we both like the character (and I do appreciate seeing this from a different angle),

Well, that's my main goal here. I do think it's helpful to see Mahiru from different angles. I will say that by discussing her with you and some others, I have taken notice of her softer side as well, so I thank you for that. For example, I'm not sure I would have noticed how she didn't want Hibino to die if I wasn't going out of my way to find reasons for why people see her as "not that harmful".

Anyway, I've said my piece, so yes, we can move on.

[Serp]

Well stuopidget...I agree with you.

I don't see what the hell she is opposing. The only thing going on around them is really just Aki coming out of nowhere and fighting. There really is no force that is an opposition at this point....minus that creepy old dude and this org.

And yeah there was Aki's step bro that kidnapped that teacher.

Anyway, it is a dumb argument. Obviously she is done at this point...no kakashi...no respect with anyone present. The only thing she wanted was to be with her savior.

She was shocked at what happened when Hibino was thrown and that was a clue for people to understand that Kakashi obey even subconscious desires. This is reinforcing the fight Kyohei won against that one Kakashi.

I think you missed the whole point of Mahiru's overall experiences.

Kyohei says that wielding the power of the kakashi is dangerous and will lead to something bad.
The control mechanism to Magatsuki was destroyed and it fed off of Mahiru's jealousy to do what it must. Same with Kukuri at the end it fed off of Kyohei's negative emotions even they were for a noble cause he still wanted whatever his obstacle was obliterated.

[ars89]

Yes Kuuko to the rescue! She even took out the politician. Well Aki is now free, hopefully he comes back into play in the last ep. Utao won! Serves Mahiru right that she lost control of Magatsuhi. Too bad it just caused a hell of a problem. Nice job by Kyohei to take the hits and still try and free Hibino. Too bad Kirio knocked out Kukuri. Sad to see Kyohei lose it at the end. Wonder if he's controlling Kukuri even though he's knocked out or if Kukuri is moving itself to save Kyohei.

[thundrakkon]

With the antagonist argument, you could actually say anyone on the Hyuuga side is the antagonist since they oppose the protagonist (in this case, Kyouhei, Utao, and Hibino). There are other antagonists in the show as well: Aki, the village as a whole, and the creepy Shimoyama.

However, just as others have mentioned, just because you are an antagonist, it does not mean you do not sympathize with them. I find Aki extremely sympathetic.

Also, often times in Anime, the antagonists will join the protagonists later on, and ultimately, become protagonists themselvse.

Spoiler for Other Anime Examples:

For instance, like

Piccolo and Vegeta in Dragonball Z
Shampoo, Kodachi, Ryouga, etc. in Ranma 1/2
Orange-kun (Jeremiah) in Code Geass

And the list goes on. These are just some of the more well known ones.

As long as the characters are well drawn out, people can relate and love them, regardless of their position in the story.

Originally Posted by Serp

So Aki could have left when he wanted to....I don't get his reasoning? I doubt he knew that this thing with Mahiru would go down this way.

Aki was knocked out for a good amount of the time. He probably just woke up, and figured he had nothing else better to do. Just wait around and see what happens.

Originally Posted by Serp

I was really surprised to see Utao's twin give a crap about Kyohei. I didn't realize he had any feelings towards his bro.

Kirio has always shown affection towards Kyouhei ever since he was first introduced. He actually wanted to replace Utao in Kyouhei's eyes when they first met, if I recall correctly. It was Utao that Kirio wanted to pick a fight with in the beginning, probably due to jealousy.

Originally Posted by Zodiamaster

Tbqh I found it sorta funny.

Right when Kyohei flips and starts ranting about the village, Magatsuhi smacks him behind the head like "ok stfu, go to bed".

To each his own. The flashback and voice acting really made me feel for sorry for him and understand his frustration. The smack in the back of the head was very much like a slap in face of someone going hysterical to calm them down, but in this case, its effects were more severe.

Serp here pretty much summed up how I felt about the scene as well:

Originally Posted by Serp

You know, I don't really credit Voice actors too much but damn did Kyohei's VA really put some emotion into his breakdown. I must admit...I got caught up in that moment. I was kinda peeved that they put the flash back there just because I know Kyohei was about use curba stompa on Maghatsuki but upon rethinking it I find that it really strengthens Kyohei reasoning.

[Guardian Enzo]

I guess we can officially roundfile the "Mahiru is harmless" notion now that she's tried to throw Hibino off a skyscraper. As RRR says, she's an awesome antagonist though - a scenery-chewing, over the top force of nature with KanaHana voicing it. That's gold, Baby.

Fantastic episode. No other show can do sheer, unadulterated insane action like this one can. I loved the GAR twin-attack to save Big Bro - though it went horribly wrong. Loved the fact that all of the nut jobs were present at the beginning of the episode in full berserker mode - though Aki did go curiously missing for all the fun. You can bet he'll be a major player next week. And I loved Kyouhei flashing back to his mother telling him what the series has been more subtly saying all along - you can leave the village but you can never escape it.

But oh, that ending - Kyouhei takes a seemingly lethal blow to the head from a rogue Magatsuhi, Kukkuri is rogue itself after Kirio's otouto-attack, and somehow that combined with Kyouhei's rage means he's back in charge of Kukkuri for the first time since those few seconds at the end of the Utao-Kirio fight. I always knew the season (hint, hint) would end with Kyouhei as a seki again, and it's seemed for a while that Hibino's life being in danger would be the last big push to make it happen.

[serenade_beta]

Spoiler for ep12:

Ah...
I was looking forward to the:
"HA... HA... Ha... HAH!" scene from Mahiru, but the anime was more like "Ha... Ha... Ha... Hahaha..."
It was still funny, but not as much...

But anyways, great episode (as always).
Kuuko really is... strong...
Geez, take out some random woman, kick a guy out of consciousness, knock a guy out with a golf club, listen in on secret conversations, take a guy with a gun done, frame a rapist...


The end of the anime probably will be as I expect... We'll see.

Originally Posted by Kanon

Hahaha oh wow, this is amazing. Really wish I could read all that, especially Mahiru's comments about Hibino and Utao's specials. So I take it she's super popular already, huh? At least among the staff.

Not sure. The staff has made a website for Utao and I think Hibino too, so I think they just have too much free time.