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Old 2004-02-02, 14:10   Link #21
GHDpro
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Well for those who mailed me about it: the reasons mentioned
above is exactly why I haven't mentioned on the site: Seti@Home is
a good way for using distributed computing, while this effort is just a way
to crack a DRM (Digital Rights Management) system, which as also mentioned,
is HIGHLY ILLEGAL.

Or at least it would give the Japanese companies who use this protection
a very very good reason to sue AnimeSuki.
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Old 2004-02-02, 14:12   Link #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breogan
Actually, from what I understood, this has nothing to do with fansubs. The reason behind the anti-copy protection, it's to avoid the episode P2P swapping between japanese people since they are aired in PPV or in channels that require a subscription fee. They could care less about what people outside Japan do.
What a narrow-sighted comment. If you think for one moment that they don't mind people outside of japan to steal thier work while maintaining a tight grip on locals, then you really are stupid. You have to consider that the anime fansub community is nothing but a pirating community pretending to be "supporting the industry". Wether or not this is true is another argument and I'll leave that aside for now. The point is, japanese companies want to curb illigal distribution of thier material, and it doesn't matter wether you live in japan, US, or some small island in the middle of the ocean. To think that japanese companies tell themselves "We don't want anyone stealing our shows, but those people who arn't so fortunate as to see it on TV, well, sure, they can distribute our stuff on P2P"... thats retarded. If the fansub community were truely ethical they would distribute subtitle files for use with the import region 2 dvd's. Thats *IT*.

And consider for a moment how subtitle distributions affect the japanese community. Don't think that english fansubs are completely obscure to the japanese. I've personally found it ALOT easier to find fansubs than the japanese raws. If you don't think that there are japanese people download the fansubs due to convenience, you're also wrong. Fansubs are illigal, and have a negative effect in japan. You can argue the effect of fansubs to the world community, but fansubs mean no good to the japanese companies, so obviously they're trying to stop that as well. Of course, everyone is trying to cover up thier actions with this "Good Cause".

I don't really want to sound like I'm flaming, or what not (although there's no doubt that thats how it looks). I'm just trying to make a point; it DOES matter to the japanese companies what happens outside of japan. They just don't usually have any means to control it. And go figure, now they do, and we're battling them with our "Good Intentions".

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Old 2004-02-02, 14:25   Link #23
GHDpro
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Doddler:
Er, no offense, but I think Breogan is right. I'm not sure how rampant
"video piracy" is in Japan, but I'm pretty sure their primary reason for
implementing the encryption is to stop the Japanese, not those outside
of Japan which don't make that kind of a huge impact on their profits.

But in a sense your both right of course since that if they realize
adding protection will hinder fansubbing, they no doubt see it as
a nice additional benefit.
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Old 2004-02-02, 14:31   Link #24
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Pffft, another new copy protection scheme that will hit the dust soon enough (I assume from the previous threads it's being "decoded" via a Seti@Home like setup?). If someone can code it, someone can UNCODE it. And a geek with unlimited free time owns anything a profesional running on limited time and a budget can do :P

This will stop a lot of casual people who record, but it won't stop the "pro" recorders. I woulden't worry about it, though raws might get slightly harder to get hold of. Most shows right now still air on normal TV anyway....

Still, pretty shitty for the Japanese. Can't tape their favourite shows any more. I'm suprised someone isn't getting hung over that...
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Old 2004-02-02, 15:57   Link #25
Breogan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doddler
What a narrow-sighted comment. If you think for one moment that they don't mind people outside of japan to steal thier work while maintaining a tight grip on locals, then you really are stupid. You have to consider that the anime fansub community is nothing but a pirating community pretending to be "supporting the industry". Wether or not this is true is another argument and I'll leave that aside for now. The point is, japanese companies want to curb illigal distribution of thier material, and it doesn't matter wether you live in japan, US, or some small island in the middle of the ocean. To think that japanese companies tell themselves "We don't want anyone stealing our shows, but those people who arn't so fortunate as to see it on TV, well, sure, they can distribute our stuff on P2P"... thats retarded. If the fansub community were truely ethical they would distribute subtitle files for use with the import region 2 dvd's. Thats *IT*.

And consider for a moment how subtitle distributions affect the japanese community. Don't think that english fansubs are completely obscure to the japanese. I've personally found it ALOT easier to find fansubs than the japanese raws. If you don't think that there are japanese people download the fansubs due to convenience, you're also wrong. Fansubs are illigal, and have a negative effect in japan. You can argue the effect of fansubs to the world community, but fansubs mean no good to the japanese companies, so obviously they're trying to stop that as well. Of course, everyone is trying to cover up thier actions with this "Good Cause".

I don't really want to sound like I'm flaming, or what not (although there's no doubt that thats how it looks). I'm just trying to make a point; it DOES matter to the japanese companies what happens outside of japan. They just don't usually have any means to control it. And go figure, now they do, and we're battling them with our "Good Intentions".
Well, I must be retarded or stupid, because that's how I think after doing some research on my own when I heard of this a couple of days ago. Also, if you don't want to make your post sound like a flame, avoiding namecalling would be a good first step.

I didn't say anime studios could care less about what happened with their stuff outside Japan (of course they do, since they lose money from the royalties). What I'm talking about are TV channels that broadcast on a PPV or monthly fee basis, which are the ones that promoted the anti-copy system together with the hardware companies (and content makers too). Those channels don't lose money because someone in the US watches a fansub from a TV show they air (it doesn't even have to be an anime show), but they do lose money from subscribers and PPV fees when one of these shows is distributed in the japanese P2P networks.
This problem is specially big since really fast connections are widely available across the country, and has been shown when law enforcement went after the Winny creator and forced him to shutdown the project webpage.
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Old 2004-02-02, 17:46   Link #26
Keen
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The funny part is that no one's even mentioned that this (or something similar) copy protection is going to be implemented anywhere HDTV is in wide use. That includes the US, Europe, etc. It was developped to prevent digital copies of tv shows/broadcast movies, ANYWHERE. Stop inflating your egos by thinking that they would develop this just to stop fansubbing.
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Old 2004-02-02, 18:47   Link #27
kj1980
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I could care less as I watch it "raw" anyway.

But let me get this straight...

You are trying to say that in April, there will be absolutely no use for all those VCRs and DVD-recorders that is in the market right now? I sincerely doubt that.

The purpose of a video recording system is that it was made from the idea "whoa, I wish I could record something on a different channel while I am watching this other cool show" and "hey, wouldn't it be neat if we can watch those shows over and over again?" (aside from the fact you can make home movies too)

I would certainly be pissed if I was watching a K-1 grandprix fighting game and my VCR wouldn't allow me to record an anime showing on another channel at the same time.

Wouldn't that hold true for your countries as well? For example, America. You guys had the Super Bowl recently. I would imagine there are many people in America who want to see something on another channel while watching the Super Bowl. The great invention called the VCR allows that. Does that mean that once this thing is "goes into effect," our VCRs become useless? What's the point of owning a "video cassette recorder" then?

If this was a very serious issue, I would imagine that electronics makers from across the globe will go on a apocalyptic war against the broadcasters.

Now, to clarify: You do mean "direct digital copies" correct? Then, that is justifiable. Digital copies can create havoc as they can reproduce [very close] to 1:1 copy from the source.

Many "raws" spread over the Japanese P2P network, where "fansubbers" get their sources from, are recorded [mostly] by means of Japanese "capturers" converting MPEG videos from a digital recording system (DVHS, home DVD-R decks, or anything with IEEE or video firewire ports) to Divx, Xvid, WMV, or whatever. Of course, there are those who stay with "analog" methods, but let's leave that aside for a moment.

So to reiterate -
A. "recordability protection" clause is flawed as you have millions of VCR owners across the globe...if it can't record, then it just becomes a VCP - "video cassette player" (once again, aside from the fact you can make home movies)

B. The issue at stake here is "availability of simple methods of COPYING a digital broadcast."

Japanese broadcasters are not going to ban recording programs...that will only cause consumer backlash in finding their VCRs unable to record something while watching something else. What they will forbid is COPYING something down the end.

Clarification:
A. i don't know how the term is called outside of Japan, but here, we have call them "parent-child recording" versus "child-grandchild copying." Parent (broadcast) to child (VCR) recording is acceptable and allowed. Child (VCR) to Grandchild (another VCR) is not allowed.

I assume myself that the broadcasters have in mind is the latter copying protection. You can record it yourself for your own pleasure, but they don't want that record spread across to a third party down the line....especially with the simplicity of creating a 1:1 digital copy of digital broadcast via means of digital recording methods nowadays.

But let's face it - piracy exists. If you can't do it digitally, all you have to do is go back to the era of analog recording, for the time being, until a solution to "crack the code" is found.

What the broadcasters have in mind is that they know "piracy" exists and distributed everywhere. If they can't stop it, they can slow it and contain it (for a time being). If it works and see a dramatic drop in "pirated" material, then great. If it doesn't, it was worth the try to find another method. It's a "cat-and-mouse" game.

What do Japanese geeks who roam around Akihabara have to say about the broadcasters' decision?

"Dousing molten lava with water" (actually, the actual Japanese proverb is more like "Fighting red-hot stone with water)
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Old 2004-02-02, 19:26   Link #28
Breogan
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You can still use VCRs and other analogic devices to record, but there will be a big quality loss (like watching old analogic TV vs. watching a DVD, as an example). The broadcasts will have a copy protection flag set as "copy only once", so you can copy it in your digital recording hardware but you won't be able to make further copies (what you refer to as child-grandchild copies, I think).
That copy will be stored and encrypted using the mentioned chip, and you won't be able to copy it anywhere else. The distributed effort they are trying to pull is to find a method to crack the encryption used to store the recorded digital broadcasts.
It's something like the DeCSS crack DVD-Jon figured, but using a brute force approach.
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Old 2004-02-02, 19:50   Link #29
kj1980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breogan
You can still use VCRs and other analogic devices to record, but there will be a big quality loss (like watching old analogic TV vs. watching a DVD, as an example). The broadcasts will have a copy protection flag set as "copy only once", so you can copy it in your digital recording hardware but you won't be able to make further copies (what you refer to as child-grandchild copies, I think).
That copy will be stored and encrypted using the mentioned chip, and you won't be able to copy it anywhere else. The distributed effort they are trying to pull is to find a method to crack the encryption used to store the recorded digital broadcasts.
It's something like the DeCSS crack DVD-Jon figured, but using a brute force approach.
True, but I am also aware that most otakus here own high end analogue video recorders (SVHS/ET, WVHS, ED-Beta, U-matics) stuck somewhere in their closets. Sure, they may not be as good as DVD recorders in crispiness, but it's also a chance for old-analogue fans to re-test their skills that they've left in the dust for the past several years...
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Old 2004-02-02, 20:40   Link #30
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kj1980:
just a side question, how long had japan been implemented the HDTV boardcast system? I know it must be more than three years as I already seen those TV in Japan.

Does that mean most anime, if not all, had been capture by HDTV, how about one or two years ago.
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Old 2004-02-03, 00:34   Link #31
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First, you're pretty much all off topic (this is just an observation and praise), except for Kyuven because the new topic is the simple yes or no question of "Will HDTV Protection affect fansubbing?"

The answer is no because the HDTV Protection will probably be cracked before it is even put into use in April due to the working project in the first post, which renders the whole issue moot. Even if the project to break the encryption does not work, boohoo we'll have to use normal DTV raws which are probably good anyway; either way we'll make do, so this does NOT mean the end of fansubbing as we know it.

Since the original question is moot, you guys have done the right thing by considering the following question: "What are the ethical and legal reprocussions of breaking the encryption AND/OR using it to get raws, which shouldnt be done anyways?" This question offers a more interesting perspective on the all important question of the dubious legality or lack thereof of fansubs. Since obtaining raws is obviously illegal, tampering with them, and especially distributing tampered editions is probably as bad as bootlegging because digital fansubs are a much more rampant crime than bootlegging due to the easily transferable and self-propagating nature of fansubs. For example, take Gundam Seed; thousands upon thousands of people dled that show and many put it on some form of optical storage. Also the number of people with the show on optical storage continues to grow day by day due to downloading services like Kazaa and massive bandwidth connections. How many people in the US have ordered bootlegs of this show? Compare that number to the number of people in the US with Gundam Seed on optical storage who will not buy the dvds for this show when it comes out? It would be pretty hard to prove that the first number is larger than the second especially since Gundam Seed is being shared and transfered all over the internet, and this problem will become worse when it airs on tv and everyone wants to dl it.

I'm expecting someone to throw out the argument that bootleggers get paid and thus propogate themselves, stealing revenue from the companies that produce the anime, however take a good look at fansubs and you'll see that the fansubbing groups are trying to make their fansubs as good as dvd versions with their professional logos, karaokes, etc. (Chrno Crusade anyone ) Fansubs have come such a long way that many downloaders are saving them as alternatives to dvds in the US, which is a shame. In fact I want to say that since fansubs are free (and easily accessible to people with large bandwidths), they have gone as far as creating the false pretense that people have a right to anime (btw if there was any doubt: NO YOU DO NOT). At least by charging people, bootlegs dont have the potentially limitless demand that can occur for fansubs. Fansubs, especially for series that we know will be licensed, are doing the same disservice to anime companies that bootleggers do only the fansubs may just be the greater of two evils because they're essentially free and easily transferable.

I guess to wrap it all up, I'm gonna say that fansubs do a disservice to both Japanese and American anime corps by creating a demand for raws and providing a potentially limitless supply for an alternative to a dvd of an anime.
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Old 2004-02-03, 00:54   Link #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vio5555
...fansubs do a disservice to both Japanese and American anime corps by creating a demand for raws and providing a potentially limitless supply for an alternative to a dvd of an anime.
This is too general a condemnation. Not every anime ever made is going to be licensed in the US - even in a scenario where all upcoming series are already licensed there will always be a niche for fansub groups who present an older series. Fansubs still have an impact on which shows get licensed by creating interest - if a show gets licensed 3 years after it is broadcast the fansub groups shouldn't be retroactively castigated for what they did to create a market for the show. Fansubs are not the only potentially limitless alternative to buying DVDs due to the availability of DVD rips, the blame for which can hardly be laid at the feet of fansub groups.
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Old 2004-02-03, 01:44   Link #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vio5555
[...] Fansubs do a disservice to both Japanese and American anime corps by creating a demand for raws and providing a potentially limitless supply for an alternative to a dvd of an anime.
I have seen many people make this argument before. But, what I am more interested in is the solution to the problem. See, I would propose that the problem is not the demand itself (in a free-market economy, demand is always a potential positive); the problem is that, in this case, the demand is not being met a legal and ethical way.

You are proposing that the problem with fansubbing is that it creates a demand and then immediately satisfies that demand, thus creating greater demand. It is thus a self-perpetuating demand, also known as an addiction cycle. There are two ways for a free-market economy to react to this problem:

1. Try to kill the addiction cycle. (Case in point here would be the RIAA)
2. Find a way to profit from the addiction cycle. (Case in point here would be tobacco companies, for lack of a better example)

In this case, thankfully, this addiction is relatively harmless, so in an ideal world, someone would have already figured out how to profit from this trend. That is what I am missing in this whole argument. People can argue forever about the ethics of fansubbing, but so long as the demand is not being met in any other sensible and comparable way, the practice will continue. (I would argue that R1 DVDs are not a comparable substitute for the practice of fansubbing, and it's not just about the price.) If it's a self-perpetuating addiction to marketable products, the only sensible way for companies to react is to try to profit from it. (Will they be that perceptive though? That's the real question.)

So, in response to the main thread, no, HDTV protection won't seriously affect fansubbing, because the demand is still there and is not being met in any other way. The only thing that will truly end the majority of fansubbing is when the demand is being met in a *better* way. I would argue that it's in the best interests the companies to *be* that better way.

Note: This is not an attempt to rationalize fansubbing - it is clearly illegal under international law, and is, at best, ethically questionable (most especially for series that are surely going to be licensed). However, villifying the demand doesn't get us any closer to a solution.
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Old 2004-02-03, 01:57   Link #34
method
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Quote:
I would argue that R1 DVDs are not a comparable substitute for the practice of fansubbing, and it's not just about the price
Why would think that dvds don't meet the demands if you take the price out of the equation.
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Old 2004-02-03, 02:22   Link #35
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Why would think that dvds don't meet the demands if you take the price out of the equation.
Mostly two factors - time to delivery, and method of delivery. Fansubs can be translated and released often within a week of airing in Japan, and then easily downloaded to your computer over the Internet. Given today's technology, it is as close as we can get to seeing it broadcast on TV as the Japanese can (of course, with subtitles to help us understand it).

Because of their nature, DVDs take longer to produce, and require the hastle of shipping a physical product (which can be a pain depending on your location). Also, because of the expectations inherent to the DVD market, companies feel the need to spend even more time providing English extras and English dubs to go with the R1 release, further extending the time it takes to market (and increasing the cost). DVDs are nice and do serve a purpose (I have a whole bunch of anime DVDs, and am buying many more), but they are not a comparable substitute for the speed and ease-of-delivery that fansubs provide. If anime companies could find a way to deliver anime in a similarly quick timeframe, with a similarly easy delivery method (over the Internet?), and at a reasonable cost, the fansubbing community would change dramatically.

That being said, I do not pretend that fansubbing would disappear if comparable legal alternatives were to show up, and certainly not right away. But, it would make the ethical quandry (if there in fact is one) a lot easier to resolve, and the legal issues much more clear-cut (if they needed to be clearer). It is difficult to wholeheartedly decry a practice for which there currently is no comparable legal alternative (at least in my opinion).
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Old 2004-02-03, 02:54   Link #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breogan
Well, I must be retarded or stupid, because that's how I think after doing some research on my own when I heard of this a couple of days ago. Also, if you don't want to make your post sound like a flame, avoiding namecalling would be a good first step.

I didn't say anime studios could care less about what happened with their stuff outside Japan (of course they do, since they lose money from the royalties). What I'm talking about are TV channels that broadcast on a PPV or monthly fee basis, which are the ones that promoted the anti-copy system together with the hardware companies (and content makers too). Those channels don't lose money because someone in the US watches a fansub from a TV show they air (it doesn't even have to be an anime show), but they do lose money from subscribers and PPV fees when one of these shows is distributed in the japanese P2P networks.
This problem is specially big since really fast connections are widely available across the country, and has been shown when law enforcement went after the Winny creator and forced him to shutdown the project webpage
.
Well, the name calling was if you truely figured that the companies didn't care about what happened outside of japan. I'm sure you know as well as I do that they japanese companies wouldn't like anything more than to completely abolish any unauthorised distribution either in physical, online, in japan, or outside (You said so right in your reply). Thats the simple truth of the matter.

People take online distribution for granted, thinking its a basic right of thiers to download anime, and that way of thinking I find atleast a little annoying. There are many things in this world that are available only in one place, one language etc. You'll never find these things outside that country, translated, etc. Then there's people who feel that because a particular product isn't released in a form that they can use, that they are still diserve it, even through means that the target audience for the product arn't able to get. I'm not just talking about anime, but its obviously the best example.

A bit off topic, I know, but I figure I should tie loose ends :P I didn't mean to insult, by the way, its just how it came out, really :P.
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Old 2004-02-03, 03:40   Link #37
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It never fails to amaze me why people who flame fansubs and say they are pirating bootlegs that should be wiped off the face of the earth... actively participate in forums devoted to creating fansubs and the distribution of such. Why is this?

Oh, I'll be back in a few hours. Gotta go to the KKK website and berate them for being racist pigs, and Porno forums to yell at them for being filthy pervs. I don't enjoy it, its just something I do.
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Old 2004-02-03, 08:05   Link #38
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Edit - Found my answer in the translated article.

Last edited by LynnieS; 2004-02-03 at 08:15.
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Old 2004-02-03, 09:02   Link #39
Breogan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaorimoch
It never fails to amaze me why people who flame fansubs and say they are pirating bootlegs that should be wiped off the face of the earth... actively participate in forums devoted to creating fansubs and the distribution of such. Why is this?
These forums are not just Fansub forums. They are also anime (you can discuss licensed anime in the proper section), music and manga forums.

On a side note, it seems the server processing the data crashed some hours ago (probably due to the unexpected amount of people participating) but is up again and working now.
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Old 2004-02-03, 11:14   Link #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaorimoch
It never fails to amaze me why people who flame fansubs and say they are pirating bootlegs that should be wiped off the face of the earth... actively participate in forums devoted to creating fansubs and the distribution of such. Why is this?

Oh, I'll be back in a few hours. Gotta go to the KKK website and berate them for being racist pigs, and Porno forums to yell at them for being filthy pervs. I don't enjoy it, its just something I do.
Hmm... its not so much fansubs that bother me. Its the double standard "Fansubs are perfectly acceptable, but if a series gets licensed, oh no!". Its not that I hate fansubs (if I did I wouldn't be here), I just dislike it when people think that its an incredibly unjust act when someone trys to stand in the way of fansubs. :P
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