Old vs New anime

[babbito2k]

Digital fansubbing is increasingly encompassing anime titles which were broadcast quite some time ago. Some forum members are watching these shows whether they have seen or heard of them before or not. In threads throughout the forum some of these people have posted their thoughts about the qualities of older titles.

Some other forum members are very focussed on current anime and titles which have only been broadcast in the last couple of years. They may not be aware of or may not enjoy seeing older series.

Many people enjoy both current and older series. But there seems to be something about the date October 4, 1995 (the date of the first broadcast of Shin Seiki Evangelion) which creates a schism among fans. So for the purposes of this thread I will call any anime which aired prior to this date "old" and anything which aired after this date "new."

Please give your thoughts on the relative qualities of anime made before and after 1995/10/04.

[kj1980]

Originally Posted by babbito2k

Digital fansubbing is increasingly encompassing anime titles which were broadcast quite some time ago. Some forum members are watching these shows whether they have seen or heard of them before or not. In threads throughout the forum some of these people have posted their thoughts about the qualities of older titles.

Some other forum members are very focussed on current anime and titles which have only been broadcast in the last couple of years. They may not be aware of or may not enjoy seeing older series.

Many people enjoy both current and older series. But there seems to be something about the date October 4, 1995 (the date of the first broadcast of Shin Seiki Evangelion) which creates a schism among fans. So for the purposes of this thread I will call any anime which aired prior to this date "old" and anything which aired after this date "new."

Please give your thoughts on the relative qualities of anime made before and after 1995/10/04.

The third arc of anime history, "Neon Genesis Evangelion" is definitely what constitutes a border between "old" and "new."

But, I can't really say anything about the "old anime" as I have been watching anime after the second arc of anime history - April 7th, 1979 - the date of the first airing of "Kidousenshi Gundam."

I tend to view things as:
1. pre-1979 as "old anime" - I consider the best of them to be "classics" (i.e.: "World Masterpiece Theater")

2. animes made btwn 1979-1995 (Gundam to Eva) as "my generational anime" - The best of them were ones that I have been watching real-time as a kid, and the long-series "golden age" of Shueisha/Toei collaborated animes grew up along with me (i.e: "Hokuto no Ken")

3. post-1995 as "recent anime." - many goods, many disappointments, the times when I found myself to be an anime otaku. Waiting for the next "big arc."

[Kurara]

I really like "old" anime.. I mean, anime series that were made in the late 70's and 80's. I like anime that was made in the early 90's too. Because it's nostalgic.. And I'm obsessed with the 80's so watching anime made during that time is fun. I really enjoy watching old anime series like Akage no Anne or Mama is a 4th grader or Mizuiro Jidai or Yawara. But I think that no matter when they were made... There was anime series for everyone.. And it'll always be like that.

The only thing that bothers me about recent anime series is that.. A lot of series are based on bishoujo games and it gets really repetitive.. x.x I'm not against those series at all.. I'm just really getting sick of them to be honest.

There are types of series that have just evolved too.. Like the magical girl genre. It's hard to say..

I guess it's just a difference of generation. In recent anime series, you can see Japanese teenagers do things that are currently trendy in Japan. .. So there's different problems that are brought up in the series too. I guess it's normal since things have changed.. But I really don't think that anime is better now. There's been different trends. At some point.. There was more cyberpunk anime. These days, you don't see it that much anymore.. Also there was a lot of gothic anime a few years ago... There's still some but it's not as trendy as it was. It's little things like that..

[Lambda]

As a general rule, I would say that the quality of anime has continued to improve with time, and there are few indications that it is obviously reaching a plateau. It still seems to be a maturing art form, continuing to explore the boundaries of what can be done.

But importantly, when I say this I'm talking only about the cream of the crop, because that's what I'm mostly interested in, and that's what I remember. I've little idea of how your "ordinary average" title now compares to your "ordinary average" title 20 years ago, and I don't really care, because if a show is merely average, I won't watch it.

And also, my perspective is very much skewed towards favouring things which go beyond "simple storytelling." You can talk about things like "World Masterpiece Theater", but none of the premises there sound interesting to me. So it might be more accurate to say that recently, the leading talent has been producing shows that are better suited to my tastes. (Because the idea that you can do these more interesting things has become better and better accepted.)

[babbito2k]

Originally Posted by Lambda

You can talk about things like "World Masterpiece Theater", but none of the premises there sound interesting to me.

You mention this show but you apparently didn't watch any of the series. So how can compare it with shows you consider "above average?" Trying to dismiss shows you haven't seen is illogical.

If you can compare "old" and "new" shows you have watched it might put some substance into what you are saying.

[darkwave]

I dont like Old/Outdated Anime. Even if the story is good, I'll just ignore it. I'll feel like a grandma if I watch those "wrinkled" shows.

I got spoiled by the Anime today. I simply cant go back, its a disgrace to go back IMO.

Dont blame me! BLAME the YEAR 2000+ ANIME.

If you like watching old ANIME, then good for you. Everyone have different tastes when it comes to Anime.

[Seifer_us]

Out of my friends, I'm probably the most interested in older anime, and sometimes it's much to my disdain, as I can't seem to get anyone to sit down and watch things like the original Tetsuwon Atom, Ashita no Joe, or Anne of Green Gables. It's sad really, as most of these shows actually come across as being very original, especially in this period where it seems that the only thing being produced are series based around, to put it simply, sex appeal. Let's face it though, sex sells, and it's frustrating. Is it really so strange that I'd rather watch something intelligent as apposed to a bunch of young girls running around in bath towels? I'm a nineteen year old male and even I find it annoying! Anyway, I'm impressed by different shows from all eras, provided they show me something that I'm going to find worth my time.

[babbito2k]

Originally Posted by babbito2k

Please give your thoughts on the relative qualities of anime made before and after 1995/10/04.

I would like to see some mention of actual "qualities," perhaps with some examples given. This is more like a slam-fest (.)_(.)

edit: darkwave - what's your beef?

[darkwave]

Originally Posted by babbito2k

I would like to see some mention of actual "qualities," perhaps with some examples given. This is more like a slam-fest (.)_(.)

I just cant go back to the primitive ages.
Its all about the art now. You want an Example? **Macross Zero**, nuff said!

It's hard for me to actually enjoy something that is not appealing to me eyes, even if the story is interesting. Yes its my lost, but there's just too many NEW ANIME to choose from.

Enjoy your old Anime and i'll enjoy the new ones.

[Seifer_us]

Originally Posted by babbito2k

I would like to see some mention of actual "qualities," perhaps with some examples given. This is more like a slam-fest (.)_(.)

Sorry about that... I get off on a tangent sometimes...

Well, with "Old" anime series such as Ashita no Joe, you might find a very in-depth detailed story, but these stories don't often leave the realm of being on Earth and involve very realistic storylines. Being a big fan of realism, I find this an attractive quality. I also find that shows like these have a very "painterly" feel to them as apposed to the flatness apparent in some of today's shows. I love a lot of these shows, merely because they have a lot of heart and beauty in their stories. Animation on the whole is usually not exactly fantastic, but I've never found a show that's just completely turned me off. The World Masterpiece shows in particular are probably the most beautifully animated of that time period.

Liking realism is not to say that I don't like science-fiction. Some of my favorite shows involve some very epic stories of galavanting across galaxies. This kind of storytelling became popular around the time that the first Gundam series was released. Stories like these work very well in an anime setting. Characters still tend to be well-developed in most of the well written series, and we're treated to some very interesting stories. Animation quality went through an interesting transition during the 80's as well, leaving us with some truly beautiful sequences, but they will still few and far between.

In the late nineties I'd say cel animation was reaching it's peak. Most likely in 1998, with the release of Cowboy Bebop, we saw the last great stand of traditional cel animation (if you don't count films). A good portion of the shows released between 1996 and 2000, I will remember quite fondly, for their excellent story-telling, character design, and music. This was my golden-era.

Now we've reached the current period of anime, where anime has become a very marketable product all over the world. Thus, more shows are being produced, but sometimes at considerable budget cuts, which is a slight side effect to deal with. We have some very unique gems in this era, such as Juuni Kokki, Fullmetal Alchemist, and some lesser known titles that I know most wouldn't agree with me on how great they are. Animation has stepped into the 3D realm as well in this period, starting back in 2000 with Love Hina, when they decided to start using computers for a good portion of the work, and it was very beautifully done for the most part. More shows, such as Last Exile, are using this more and more with the passing of time, and it keeps getting better and better as it is pushed to it's exent. The only real downfall of all this, is that we have a LOT of shows being released now due to the increase in anime's popularity, and the majority of them can be passed over without a second glance and you wouldn't be missing much of anything. Anyway, that's my opinion at least.

In summary, every era has it's great series. Don't overlook anything just because it's old, and don't miss out on new shows either, as there are still lots of gems to be found.

[Radd]

Personally I feel that anyone limiting themselves into what they consider to be 'old' or 'new' anime is just narrowing their own horizons. Neither 'new' nor 'old' anime are really much better than the other. There always has been and always will be a glut of crap, and there always has and always will be a few shining jewels.

I do think too many people in the anime fandom, especially online in places like this, have a very short memory. Lots of people don't remember anything past Evangelion.

I see comments like, "I just can't watch old anime, even if the stories are good." and I can't help but think that's just sad. Why would anyone rather watch something that's poorly written and poorly animated over something that bests it in both regards, but happens to be a few years older?

I see people saying they can't go back to old anime because of improved animation visuals, but I'd argue that the 1984 Macross movie 'Do You Remember Love?' looks a whole lot nicer than Macross Zero, and I like M0. I just happen to think the character designs and fluid visuals of 'DYRL?' are more appealing than the bland designs in M0, and the often awkward use of CG. Not to mention much better, and more memorable, music in the 1984 movie.

Akira, for all it's storytelling shortcomings is still one of the most visually impressive feats of animation in existance. I'd wager that most people with an eye for animation would disagree. Newer movies like 'Ghost in the Shell' just don't compete. Even impressive works like 'Spirited Away' fall short in that comparison, though SA is definitely up there as far as impressive visuals go.

Newer does not at all mean 'better animation'. There's plenty of newer shows that just don't compare to some older shows. Are you really going to try and tell me that Ebichu the House Cleaning Hamster is better animated than Cowboy Bebop just because it's more recent? Both Jungle wa Itsumo Hale Nochi Guu and One Piece are solid shows, but there are plenty of older shows that tromp them in animation.

Then there's shows like Last Exile that start out gorgeous, but then the quality of the animation drops, getting pretty poor in a couple of episodes.

Another example of the 'new is good, old is bad' mentality is DBZ and Naruto. Plenty of people bash DBZ these days. It had it's day in the sun, now it tends to get the raw end of the deal, but you just need to take a quick little stroll around the forums and you see the same people that bash DBZ are praising Naruto. Do I really need to point out why I find this hilarious and sad at the same time?

On the other hand, a lot of older anime enthusiasts really lose sight of why they like the anime they do, overlooking many great new shows. If fans of older anime can boast a larger library of truly classic works, it's because such works are few and far between, and those that only remember a couple years back really only get a couple great shows, and a lot of mediocre works.

Meanwhile, future classics are turning up all the time, and if someone insists that all new anime is crap, they're going to miss out one some really Grade A stuff.

This little rant may seem a bit once sided. I suppose that's because I can't actually think of anyone I know that loves old anime, but refuses to watch new anime. Usually the people I know that love old anime, watch a lot of new anime as well and are constantly on the look out for new gems. However, I've met plenty of people that love new anime, yet refuse to give older shows a chance. Strangely enough, more than a few people I know that used to be like that grew out of it with age.

But when it comes right down to it, there is no right or wrong as far as personal preference goes. You really should consider why you like the shows you do. Whenever someone tells me they like newer/older anime because it's always better animated, I know that's not really the case. I think we've already done more than enough to cover why. Art style? Sure, I can see that. Still, there's plenty of styles out there, and more than a couple popular newer shows that harken back to much more 'oldschool' styles. When someone tells me that old/new anime always has more complex storylines or better characters than the alternative, I know this isn't the case either.

However, if someone just plain preferes new/old anime just because and has no other reason, or at least none they can put words to, that's fine. Or even people that will freely admit they like new/old anime simply because it happens to be 'cool'. At least they're not fooling themselves.

I don't see an end to this debate anytime soon. It's been going on for as long as I can remember, and it will be going on long after you find yourself arguing with some punk kid that refuses to watch Naruto because they don't like anything more than 5 years old.

[Seifer_us]

Radd: Wow. You just completely expressed my opinion much more eloquently than I ever could... My sentiments exactly.

[babbito2k]

Seifer_us, Radd - thank you for your efforts.

[kuru]

My thoughts about the old vs new anime are simple: you shouldn't watch an anime because it's old or new. You should watch or don't watch an anime because it's good or not, because you like it or not. And, of course, you need to try something before saying its good or not.

I like plenty of old anime and I like plenty of new anime. My only problem is people that never having watched a single episode of something say "this isn't good, because it's old". And sometimes they call "old" series there're 5 years old! Probably a series that has one third or one fourth of the age of the (usually very young) guy saying it!. I wonder if they also have that mentality with other forms of art. "I'll never watch Star Wars because it's 25 years old", "I don't like "Stairway to Heaven because it's almost 40 years old"; "I don't like Beethoven because it's several hundred years old", "I don't like the Simposons" because it's 10 years old". Maybe they even say "I don't like my father because he is old", "I don't like my mother because she is old", "they should burn all those libraries full of old books".

I do get much more enthusiastic when an old series is fansubbed than when a new one is fansubbed, but that's because I already expect most of the new series to be fansubbed. And most of fansubbing is done with series that everybody knows will be commercially released very soon. Many even fansub series already licensed. I do think the essential role of fansub these days would be to introduce people to series that are "forgotten", the "hidden jewels" out there. And then, maybe that series will be acquired later, as it gets some exposition.

[Lambda]

Originally Posted by babbito2k

You mention this show but you apparently didn't watch any of the series. So how can compare it with shows you consider "above average?" Trying to dismiss shows you haven't seen is illogical.

Is it? Let's take a rather more extreme illustrative example. Suppose someone introduces this "Pop Idol" show to me, and tells me it's a show in which you watch shedloads of people auditioning for a record contract and getting judged, and then telephone voting for an ultimate winner. Do I really need to see this show to know that it's an attempt to make money off the end record product and the votes whilst "entertaining" its audience by indulging the human tendency to gawp and be tribalistic, rather than a brilliantly planned and written show working on several levels to provoke thought, finely capture emotion and paint a carefully judged and evocative picture of the world? I submit not. It's impossible to have perfect information about anything, what you need to judge at any point is how imperfect your information is, and therefore how wide-ranging you can make your conclusions with an acceptably overwhelming chance of success.

And so this case. Having not watched any of them, my information isn't terribly good. I don't know about the subtleties in the writing and direction. I'm not familiar with the balance between realism and emphasis. And all sorts of such details.

But still, I can tell quite a bit. I know the basic premise style of the stories. This doesn't sound like much, and the only other things I have are knowledge of the freedoms introduced to the medium by shows like Gundam and Eva, from which I can deduce that they were not widespread beforehand, and a few minor deductions I can make from observing general trends in the medium. I also know the implications of a series of shows having links, and the sort of "culture" that develops within it. And I know it has some connections with the staff of Ghibli. But I have knowledge of storytelling, gleaned from a lifetime of watching TV and film and reading books.

Now, if I was really trying to totally dismiss them, this still wouldn't be nearly enough. But that wasn't what I was doing. I wasn't comparing it with the "above average", it sounds completely plausible that I would end up regarding them as above average. As a declared classic I was comparing only with the elite. I know what stories I have come to regard as being amongst the elite. And this is where my knowledge of storytelling comes in, because I can observe certain combinations of features that every single one of the stories amongst my personal elite have. And then it's just a simple matter of attempted extrapolation to see that the few facts I have, in particular what the stories are about, are enough to deduce that them possessing such features is unlikely in the extreme.

All humans are capable of working things out about elements of the universe without actually observing them firsthand. Once you've been looking at an area long enough, you start to pick up on these patterns, and gain the ability to make remarkably accurate predictions. I don't need to watch most shows to tell that I won't end up rating them amongst the best of the best, just as I don't need to travel to every place in the world to tell that humans will always behave according to basic human nature, or I don't need to try to eat every piece of beef in the world to know that I won't like the taste of any of them.

If you can compare "old" and "new" shows you have watched it might put some substance into what you are saying.

Well, that's the problem, and that's why I was deliberately qualifying my observations, because I haven't watched a huge number of old shows, (being rather more difficult to find), and since in most cases I avoid watching multiple, easily comparable "genre shows", direct comparisons are difficult. What do I compare Yawara to? I've never watched any other sports anime in my life. Gunbuster, Nadia or Honneamise? You can only compare Gainax shows to other Gainax shows. Except you can't, because they're all very different. (And there's a strong case for calling everything by Gainax "new" in any case.) VPM? It's unique too. Old Ghibli films and new Ghibli films? Doesn't seem worthwhile.

My deductions (probably over-restricted actually) haven't been based on direct comparisons. They've been based on knowing how television media evolve, (mostly from observing British television, which I have a lot of in-depth knowledge of), configuring the general model to fit what I know about this particular medium, evidence coming from the large number of recent shows I've seen, the small number of old shows, and certain other facts like the nature of its "key shows", and seeing what inevitable conclusions come out of it. It's an intellectual exercise based on recognising patterns within anime that I've seen elsewhere and knowing what the implications of these patterns are.

And the central conclusion? No matter what the quality of the "rank and file", the quality of very best will continue to improve in any new medium (40 years old is definitely new), because they learn from previous mistakes and incorporate previous successes. (From my perspective which places high value on advanced ways of doing things.) And this is very evidently happening in anime, from all the good stuff from the past ten years I've seen, those fragments of the good stuff I've seen from before that, and knowing what wasn't around before the keynote shows, by what makes them such.

[babbito2k]

Originally Posted by Lambda

...

Well, if it's too much trouble, that's OK I guess... Thanks for going to all the trouble of enlightening me about your intellectual processes.

[Koshiba]

I like both old and new anime. I like pretty much all anime. Lol. Although I admit that I'm quite a fan of older stuff. ^_^; Not really sure why. But like I said, old, new, it's all good to me. But I think it's kind of sad that alot of people limit themselves to only what's new. .:shrugs:.

[D-Stilo]

I watch both old and new anime. The first impuls for me to watch old anime was that whenever I read a review about a new anime, reviewers often make references to older anime.

The first series that really got me into anime was Love Hina. The general opinion of seasoned anime reviewers is that the series brings nothing new. The reason it was such a succes was the way all factors like comedy, plot and story were mixed. Ken Akamatsu, creator of Love Hina, is often accused of "stealing" the best bits from other series and blending all of these parts into his own series. When I finished the series I wanted to see more series like Love Hina and I wanted to see for my self if those reviewers were right. And off I went.

I started with Ranma½ and Maison Ikkoku. Boy did that leave a frown on my face. First impressions; the sound sucks and the animation sucks even more. I couldn´t even believe series like that would be categorized as anime. So initially I ditched the "watch old anime and broaden your horizons" ideas.

However, with time on my hands and a hard disk full of old anime I started watching those series. And what did you know, it really grew on me. Ask me which animes are my favorite and you´ll find that Maison Ikkoku and Ranma are among them.

The thing with old anime is that you just need to get over fact that namely the animation and such factors aren´t what you expect.
Get over that and let things like story, plot, setting and humour take you away. Then you will notice that old anime can be up to par with new anime or even better. It can also be something new, as old anime have a different style and setting than new anime, which changes the "feel" to an anime.

In conclusion, get rid of your prejudice, get over your first impressions, let yourself familiarize and adjust to the series a couple of episodes and you might find something more rewarding than you initially ever thought.

I love to watch old anime and sometimes even I still need some adjusting when I start to watch a new "old anime" series. But I don´t get dissapointed very often...

[darkwave]

I've watched Ghost in the shell and Princess Mononoke. I tend to stick with old movies and nothing longer than that. I consider those "old" enough. Do I get a cookie for that?

[D-Stilo]

Originally Posted by darkwave

I've watched Ghost in the shell and Princess Mononoke. I tend to stick with old movies and nothing longer than that. I consider those "old" enough. Do I get a cookie for that?

You'll get a fortune cookie telling you "Go back further dammit"