Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

I wouldn't call a needy girl with a traumatic past full of abuse symbolic of a normal life. In fact, Shirou's relationship with Sakura would be even farther from reality than his relationship with Saber or Rin.

A "realistic" person must know when to give and take. While it's true that Shirou's goals in Fate and UBW were impossible to fulfill, at least Saber and Rin made an effort to make sure he took care of himself and didn't die from giving too much. My problem with Sakura is that all she does is take and accept Shirou's love but does not give anything in return. You see Shirou's body slowly breaking down from the battles in HF, and Sakura does little to ease his weariness.

But Shirou didn't know until HF. You go and play the other routes and it's stated aloud that for him, Sakura encompassed that for him. Rin's and Saber's relationship were only possible because there was a fantastic war. Sakura's relationship was already a WIP for a year and half. Sakura was someone he loves not only as a family member but someone he found attractive.

The endings were distinct:

Saber ending is all about his superhero ideals. That's what she's to him: the path of following those self-sacrificing ideals to the end. She's even symbolically KILLED when he abandons the superhero bs path in HF.
Rin ending makes him go to study magic, not so normal, is there?
Sakura's ending is all about the happiness of a normal life (he even shared with her two years after it ended) as reward.

You're missing the point if you believe Sakura never gave him anything. During the war? Perhaps not so much. But she had already given Shirou all her love and days of happiness during a year and half previously. She had a stronger emotional bond, same with Fuji-nee.

Originally Posted by BladeEntity

You can't say he was in love with Sakura before the war starts in all the routes if he is able to fall in love with someone else which is where the argument seems slightly flawed. I do agree he was infatuated with her though but that does not amount to feelings of love that he has in HF that leads to his "answer" as a hero. Shirou would have to be gay or a robot to not feel anything for a girl who comes to your house everyday to fix you a meal and take care of you like a housewife would.

Uhh, any time you choose to have him talk to her before the war, he's ogling her. He had hots for her, but he didn't acknowledge this until HF. Shirou thought he didn't deserve happiness. Have we paid attention about how emotionally messed up he is? He didn't think he deserve to live. Sakura's presence made him happy, but he was too fucked up to acknolwedge it fullest. It wasn't until she made that move of hers, he couldn't excuse himself anymore.

With Saber and Rin was different. He barely talked to Rin, and he never met Saber, so of course you need extraordinary circumstances (Rin saving his life, Saber saving his life. Both showing a human like weakness) for Shirou to see them as romantic interest. Sakura was already this. She didn't need an extra push. But it would too neat and easy to make the route unexciting lol.

Originally Posted by BladeEntity

I'm talking about his hero journey too. While the Tiger dojo says that the first two routes ask a question with HF being an answer. I understanding of Fate at least is that at the end he stuck to the status quo which is an "answer" to his hero journey within that route. To continue being idealistic and dreaming of doing the impossible is an "answer" albeit a rather unrealistic one.

Fate doesn't resolve anything about his character... In fact, it's the route Shirou's less explored. That's why it has no answer for Shirou, it's all about Saber (I like Fate for Saber, not for Shirou lol). If TD says that those two are about questions, then they are about questions. HF is the only possible answer they have showed to us. In general, it seems Nasu was deconstructing the heroic ideal. HF resolves everything BUT the Saber situation (they just kill her off sigh).

Originally Posted by BladeEntity

I agree though I thought UBW Good ending was crap. However it does prove that she does not mind having that peaceful lifestyle with Shirou that she could not have as a king at least until she finds her resolute answer to how she wanted to live her life.

Which seems, IMO, absolutely insulting to Saber's character. So in the end, she's only a little girl according to that Good Ending crap, and not the King of Knights. I can't imagine her in peace after the little development she had in UBW compared to Fate (where she COULDN'T accept that lifestyle and there was more justified bond between her, Shirou and Rin, IMO). It makes me angry to think about it again... Shirou's change of heart and development in HF, doing what Kiritsugu wanted but refused foolishly was a masterpiece in growth, Saber got tackled-on a harem stuff which was absolutely cringeworthy. Hell, I ship Rin/Saber more than Saber/Shirou and I should be happy for that outcome, but I can't be.

Meh.

Originally Posted by BladeEntity

This I agree with... The relationship was extremely one sided with the only comfort Sakura gave was comfort a wife gives to his husband and that he could have gotten from anyone if there was anyone else.

...Sakura makes him happy, almost effortlessly. What's so one side about it? In fact, isn't her mana exchange ehem needed to keep Shirou's new body 100% functional. He's a whole new man for the first time in his life, not a fake Kiritsugu. Thanks to Sakura.

Not Rin and not Saber.

Their relationship is by far the most healthy for Shirou. I like Saber/Shirou more than Rin/Shirou (this one is ok, but honestly they have better chemistry with other people in general), but Saber's the WORST match for him (he's good for her, though). Outside of battles, they'll be awful in a romantic sense. That's why they never had a relationship. They wouldn't work as one, they would work as an epic feeling, but never as a couple, IMO. One of the reasons why I like them is because they would be unhealthy as hell.

Originally Posted by Haak

I remember having this argument with Cherry Lover before. In my opinion, I don't think Shirou is already in love with Sakura unless you make those choices to talk to Sakura before the war starts. I think the Shirou who doesn't choose to talk to Sakura and the Shirou who does are two slightly different characters. Otherwise, there's no real reason why Shirou didn't grow an attachment to Saber as much as he did at the start of Fate. In the start of the Fate route, Shirou saw Saber getting all banged up by Berserker and didn't want that to happen again. In Heaven's Feel he saw the same thing and yet had no compucture in going out on patrols with her and letting her fight.

No... those choices you see an insight on his head. It's not as if Sakura's doing something extraordinary in the kitchen. His feelings are already there.

People can fall out love, specially when they haven't noticed their feelings. HF route, he had began to have a more or less concrete awareness of Sakura by that point (with an extra option), in the Fate one, he didn't.

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

So wanting to be the one to cook for the one she loves every day isn't giving to that person? She took care of him for for a year and a half even after the excuse of his injury ended. Her ending is the only really normal life ending. She gave him his own reason to live rather than the pretty sounding words of Kiritsugu, one that he chose himself. Even Shiro knows that for Sakura, helping him is what makes her happy as well.

lol, indeed. Thank you. Her ending is the only one Shirou's, in fact, in a long-lasting romantic relationship with a certain future too. He almost lost her thanks to the war, he fought to get her back, and he was rewarded with two years and counting of bliss.

What happened during the war is only important in Rin and Saber routes because they were never close to Shirou before it. Where is Saber's giving him stuff after it ended? Oh... right. What about Rin? We don't know for sure.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Thess

No... those choices you see an insight on his head. It's not as if Sakura's doing something extraordinary in the kitchen. His feelings are already there.

Exactly. If you choose the Sakura choices.

People can fall out love, specially when they haven't noticed their feelings. HF route, he had began to have a more or less concrete awareness of Sakura by that point (with an extra option), in the Fate one, he didn't.

I don't think you can fall out of love that easily. If that's the case then whatever love Shirou had for Sakura I wouldn't call very substantial.

Indeed in HF Shirou did in fact have more awareness of Sakura. That's because he chose more Sakura choices. And he chose more Sakura choices because he was already naturally gravitating towards her. If he doesn't choose those choices, then it shows he wasn't gravitating towards her beforehand, which means there's nothing in the way of her falling in love with Saber or Rin.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Haak

Exactly. If you choose the Sakura choices.

Those are given even in Fate route. The other options are the dojo training. Like I say, it doesn't portray anything exceptional in Shirou's routine. Shirou trains and has hots for cooking Sakura. Facts of his life before the war.

Originally Posted by Haak

I don't think you can fall out of love that easily. If that's the case then whatever love Shirou had for Sakura I wouldn't call very substantial.

Indeed in HF Shirou did in fact have more awareness of Sakura. That's because he chose more Sakura choices. And he chose more Sakura choices because he was already naturally gravitating towards her. If he doesn't choose those choices, then it shows he wasn't gravitating towards her beforehand, which means there's nothing in the way of her falling in love with Saber or Rin.

The Sakura choices were even in Fate route. You're mistaking two things: love and romantic love. He already loved Sakura (she was his family), but his romantic feelings and attraction were muted until the HF route. There were hints he liked her that way, but once Saber or Rin triggered his hormones, she remained a family member rather than a love interest. What was growing into that direction, halted. There are two ways to write romance: one is making a character fall in love first (hormones, infatuation) then begin to seriously love that person. This is what happens with Shirou's feelings with Rin and Saber (he finds them hot girls first then he grows to love them). Another is love that person first, but the romantic feelings develop last (this is what happens with Sakura). She was first part of his family, before he was slowly realizing that she was an attractive girl.

Usually manga/anime tackle either of those styles of narrative stories. FSN isn't an exception.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Thess

Those are given even in Fate route. The other options are the dojo training. Like I say, it doesn't portray anything exceptional in Shirou's routine. Shirou trains and has hots for cooking Sakura. Facts of his life before the war.

Those choices are given in Fate too but he didn't taken them. That's what I'm saying. The one who does take them is different to the one who doesn't.

The Sakura choices were even in Fate route. You're mistaking two things: love and romantic love. He already loved Sakura (she was his family), but his romantic feelings and attraction were muted until the HF. There were hints he liked her that way, but once Saber or Rin triggered his hormones, she remained a family member rather than a love interest. What was growing into that direction, halted. There are two ways to write romance: one is making a character fall in love first (hormones, infatuation) then begin to seriously love that person. This is what happens with Shirou's feelings with Rin and Saber (he finds them hot girls first then he grows to love them). Another is love that person first, but the romantic feelings develop last (this is what happens with Sakura). She was first part of his family, before he was slowly realizing that she was an attractive girl.

Okay, if you meant familial love then I'd definitely agree. But then what kind of love did he fall out of then?

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Haak

Okay, if you meant familial love then I'd definitely agree. But then what kind of love did he fall out of then?

I mustn't have expressed myself right, he loved her and he was slowly becoming smitten, but those feelings of attraction were stronger in presence of Saber or Rin (by the awe-struck he is), so he never realized he was once drawn. By the HF route, he had more chances to realize his attraction before the war.

[Nerroth]

I think a key thing to remember is that in Fate and UBW, even despite (or rather, because of) Sakura's strong feelings towards Shirou, she herself would almost certainly have been keen - no, desperate - for him not to openly fall for her.

Whatever kind of balance (for lack of a better term) she had found pre-war allowed her to spend the time she did with Shirou and Taiga, while still not triggering any overt reaction from Zouken. (Whether he held any private thoughts one way on the other about what she was doing, Sakura would have been loath to see things develop any further, for fear of what would then befall Shirou at that point.)

I suppose it could be argued that, in the other two routes, there may have been a part of her that was as much relieved for his sake as dismayed for her own in seeing him turn more to Saber or Rin. While post-Fate Shirou may or may not be looking for a new lover any time soon, and post-UBW Shirou has things with Rin to develop, at least he would have a shot at a life she would not be in a position to envision herself being able to provide.


Well, you could say that working with Rin to try and get Waver to shut down the Greater Grail would likely not sit well in Zouken's book, but that is a very different kind of attention to the one Shirou would draw if he asserted any serious romantic feelings towards Sakura (especially pre-war, when he would have been practically defenceless).

Plus, while none of them knew of it, I would hate to think what might have happened had pre-war Zouken found out Shirou had been carrying Avalon around this whole time...


Also, I would say that there's no particular reason to assume Things That Are Must Always Be from the point they are left immediately post-Fate or -UBW. Even going to London would itself open doors, in tems of meeting new people and encountering new ideas, that would not even be on the table back in Fuyuki (as anyone who has moved to another country as an adult can tell you); I'd like to think that, in the broad spectrum of near-alternate timelines out there in the vast Kaleidoscope, there are at least a few where things might find themselves going in new and unexpected directions.

But, I suppose it's probably not very intellectually honest of me to argue such when I've been trying to work on just that in my own fic writing, and not very diligently these days I might (regrettably) add; but oh well.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Thess

I mustn't have expressed myself right, he loved her and he was slowly becoming smitten, but those feelings of attraction were stronger in presence of Saber or Rin (by the awe-struck he is), so he never realized he was once drawn. By the HF route, he had more chances to realize his attraction before the war.

Eeehhh, I'm gonna have to play those three days again but I don't see much evidence of Shirou slowly becoming smitten with her unless we make those Sakura choices.

And I also think those choices were more chances for him to realize his attraction. But I also think he only has that attraction in the first place if he makes those choices. Those choices determine Shirou's character retroactively. If he makes the Sakura choices, then he was already gravitating towards her and those Sakura choices in turn reinforce that. But if he doesn't then there wasn't an attraction to begin with.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Haak

Eeehhh, I'm gonna have to play those three days again but I don't see much evidence of Shirou slowly becoming smitten with her unless we make those Sakura choices.

And I also think those choices were more chances for him to realize his attraction. But I also think he only has that attraction in the first place if he makes those choices. Those choices determine Shirou's character retroactively. If he makes the Sakura choices, then he was already gravitating towards her and those Sakura choices in turn reinforce that. But if he doesn't then there wasn't an attraction to begin with.

That's as if saying if we don't take the Dojo choices, Shirou isn't skillful or trained at all... The choices available since the beginning didn't signify anything pivotal, IMO, but to get a complete grasp of his character's routine before the war and all routes.

Those include his awakening awareness that Sakura was a hot girl long before her route was available. Mind you, it's the same with Saber and Rin, but the difference was that he didn't love them, he learned to in the span of the war. With Sakura, he already loved her (and Fuji-nee too), it's his romantic attraction (now she's "Grown up") what was fully blooming during her route. They are different types of romance, some that were based on awe, admiration or infatuation and grow later into something more lasting, like I gave examples Saber and Rin are basically this. Others, like Sakura, were based on love and steady friendship first, then grew into something less platonic.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Thess

That's as if saying if we don't take the Dojo choices, Shirou isn't skillful or trained at all... The choices available since the beginning didn't signify anything pivotal, IMO, but to get a complete grasp of his character's routine before the war and all routes.

You mean the choices where he does something stupid and dies because of it? Yeah I would kinda argue that, but I wouldn't say not skillful or trained at all, but simply not skillful enough. That he just made a single mistake and got punished for it (or was just unlucky). I mean in the end each Dead End is technically only one bad decision. And really in a lot of fights it's actually the state of the mind that matters a lot, not just the skill. He could have just not been in a good enough state of mind that day.

As for the rest, I certainly agree that Sakura's love had a basis to start off with. I don't think Rin's was based on awe or infatuation but rather that close bond that forms when two allies work together. Saber's however was most certainly that. Nasu even said it himself that it's one of those Boy Meets Girl things. He loves that trope.

[Shadow5YA]

It's kind of difficult to prove which girl belongs with Shirou as the canon pairing because the basis of an eroge with multiple choices is that you can choose who you want.

You can claim Shirou liked Sakura and say his feelings were always there, but at the same time I can claim that Shirou liked Saber just as much in Fate and Rin in UBW, and the other girls were just "in the way". An eroge is existentialist by nature: by making one choice of events, you deny the rest. Unless Nasu comes out and states what is noncanon, there is no way to know which is the main couple.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Thess

Shirou was already in love with Sakura. He had to realize it. In Fate, he got distracted by Saber. In UBW, by Rin. He pushed Sakura away for her own safety, so those feelings never bloomed. If you go and play those options to talk to Sakura, you can see he (before the war starts) have strong hints of infatuation (he's kind of dense).

Had there be no war at all, the only logical road is towards Sakura. So Rin and Saber depended more on the circumstances of the War than Sakura did in the romantic department.

Well, whilst I agree entirely that Shirou is essentially already in love with Sakura, I'm not sure a relationship would have developed were it not for HF, simply because Shirou is too dense to notice and Sakura is quite deliberately avoiding a relationship, because she knows how much danger Shirou would be in if he discovered her true situation (which a relationship would ultimately make inevitable).

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

I wouldn't call a needy girl with a traumatic past full of abuse symbolic of a normal life. In fact, Shirou's relationship with Sakura would be even farther from reality than his relationship with Saber or Rin.

Yes, but Shirou doesn't know that.

A "realistic" person must know when to give and take.

Yes. And, when you're feeling seriously "ill", desperately trying to avoid losing control of your mind (due to Angra Mainyu and the souls that the Grail absorbs) and are imprisoned by a man who can kill you with a thought, that's probably a reasonable time to "take"....

While it's true that Shirou's goals in Fate and UBW were impossible to fulfill, at least Saber and Rin made an effort to make sure he took care of himself and didn't die from giving too much. My problem with Sakura is that all she does is take and accept Shirou's love but does not give anything in return.

Erm, what? Sakura makes every effort to ensure that Shirou "takes care of himself", and she tries her hardest to keep him safe. It's just that she isn't as powerful as Saber, or even Rin, so she can't keep him safe. Even more so because the enemy he's fighting is someone who has total control over her.

You see Shirou's body slowly breaking down from the battles in HF, and Sakura does little to ease his weariness.

Well, then, if you think what she did is so bad, what should she have done...? What actions would you have had her take that wouldn't have made things worse?

Originally Posted by BladeEntity

This I agree with... The relationship was extremely one sided with the only comfort Sakura gave was comfort a wife gives to his husband and that he could have gotten from anyone if there was anyone else.

It was one-sided in the route, yes, but that's because Sakura desperately needs help. There's absolutely nothing wrong with taking help from someone when you need that help. And, besides, Sakura did everything she could to discourage Shirou from helping her.

After the route, when Sakura is able to stand on her own two feet again, she will be quite able to give him back everything she gave him. Indeed, given that he was apparently quite seriously ill for the best part of the year following HF True (he dropped down a year in school) due to not having a proper body and Sakura took care of him, I'd say she already did.

Originally Posted by Haak

I remember having this argument with Cherry Lover before. In my opinion, I don't think Shirou is already in love with Sakura unless you make those choices to talk to Sakura before the war starts. I think the Shirou who doesn't choose to talk to Sakura and the Shirou who does are two slightly different characters. Otherwise, there's no real reason why Shirou didn't grow an attachment to Saber as much as he did at the start of Fate. In the start of the Fate route, Shirou saw Saber getting all banged up by Berserker and didn't want that to happen again. In Heaven's Feel he saw the same thing and yet had no compucture in going out on patrols with her and letting her fight.

Sorry, but that's a completely non-sensical interpretation of the FSN story. They have the same backstory with the same characters acting the same way, and it's even possible to get most of the way onto the HF route and then back out of it. Further, the scenes which make it clear that Shirou is already essentially in love with Sakura are (IIRC) common to all routes, or at least some of them are. It's obvious from the format (you start from the same point) that the routes are supposed to have identical backstories with Shirou feeling the same way in all routes.

You have zero evidence for your assertion, and it does not make the slightest bit of sense. As for Saber not going on patrol, maybe it was because he was interested in Sakura more, because the scenes which you have to view to get onto the HF route in the first place make him more aware of his interest. That doesn't imply that he started from a different situation.

Originally Posted by Haak

Exactly. If you choose the Sakura choices.

What if you choose one of the Sakura choices and not the others...?

I don't think you can fall out of love that easily. If that's the case then whatever love Shirou had for Sakura I wouldn't call very substantial.

What's to say he did? It's quite possible to love more than one person, and his relationship with Sakura post-Fate doesn't seem to have changed significantly.

Indeed in HF Shirou did in fact have more awareness of Sakura. That's because he chose more Sakura choices. And he chose more Sakura choices because he was already naturally gravitating towards her. If he doesn't choose those choices, then it shows he wasn't gravitating towards her beforehand, which means there's nothing in the way of her falling in love with Saber or Rin.

Erm, what? Where the hell do you get this logic from...?

Originally Posted by Haak

Those choices are given in Fate too but he didn't taken them. That's what I'm saying.

You can take some of them without ending up on HF....

The one who does take them is different to the one who doesn't.

Evidence, please....

It seems highly unlikely to me that Shirou could have such differing views of Sakura and yet live an essentially identical life up to that point.

Originally Posted by Nerroth

Whatever kind of balance (for lack of a better term) she had found pre-war allowed her to spend the time she did with Shirou and Taiga, while still not triggering any overt reaction from Zouken. (Whether he held any private thoughts one way on the other about what she was doing, Sakura would have been loath to see things develop any further, for fear of what would then befall Shirou at that point.)

Well, I'd imagine Zouken would be delighted for Sakura to find a guy to produce an heir. I'm pretty sure, though, that he would have absolutely no intention of letting that guy have any kind of freedom. Futher, Sakura knew full well that if Shirou found out the truth of her situation, he would almost certainly get himself killed trying to rectify it, especially pre-war.

Originally Posted by Haak

Eeehhh, I'm gonna have to play those three days again but I don't see much evidence of Shirou slowly becoming smitten with her unless we make those Sakura choices.

What if you make some of them, and not the others...?

And I also think those choices were more chances for him to realize his attraction. But I also think he only has that attraction in the first place if he makes those choices. Those choices determine Shirou's character retroactively. If he makes the Sakura choices, then he was already gravitating towards her and those Sakura choices in turn reinforce that. But if he doesn't then there wasn't an attraction to begin with.

Erm, what?

How the hell can making a choice decide something retroactively...? And without changing anything else in the backstory?

That does not make the slightest bit of sense....

[Haak]

Spoiler for space:

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Sorry, but that's a completely non-sensical interpretation of the FSN story. They have the same backstory with the same characters acting the same way, and it's even possible to get most of the way onto the HF route and then back out of it. Further, the scenes which make it clear that Shirou is already essentially in love with Sakura are (IIRC) common to all routes, or at least some of them are. It's obvious from the format (you start from the same point) that the routes are supposed to have identical backstories with Shirou feeling the same way in all routes.

The key word there was most. In the end it’s obvious from the format that you need to make certain choices to get into certain routes:
http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/1802...7-pm-232k?da=y

To be more specific as the flow chart suggests you need 3 or more points, so you are definitely wrong. Those first three days are different between HF and the others. This is undeniable.

You have zero evidence for your assertion, and it does not make the slightest bit of sense. As for Saber not going on patrol, maybe it was because he was interested in Sakura more, because the scenes which you have to view to get onto the HF route in the first place make him more aware of his interest. That doesn't imply that he started from a different situation.

Saber’s thing was one of my main pieces of evidence (the fact that you need to make certain choices being the other). It would be better if you made blunt dismissive assessments about by interpretations after you addressed all of my points. Otherwise it’s just flame baiting.

Indeed the reason he lets Saber go on patrol is because he is already interested in Sakura more. I suppose you could say that choosing those scenes causes Shirou to become more aware of his interest. You have zero evidence for this. You even put a “maybe” in there which is pretty rare for a blunt dismissive person such as yourself.

What if you choose one of the Sakura choices and not the others...?

In my opinion a person’s whims says a lot about a person’s character. If Shirou were to make a lot of whims that involve being with Sakura then that would suggest to me a natural gravitation that he probably doesn’t realise. One or two whims could be counted as coincidence or it could be as you say. It’s an interpretation. I make no pretense. I don’t have any evidence for my interpretation and neither do you. Ultimately it’s up to you.

What's to say he did? It's quite possible to love more than one person, and his relationship with Sakura post-Fate doesn't seem to have changed significantly.

I don’t know. Why don’t you ask Thess since he’s the one who said it? You’re right in doesn’t seem as if his relationship with Sakura has changed all that much post Fate. I think what Thess was saying is that the romantic development was halted so naturally it would be the same. It’s really better if you ask him.

Erm, what? Where the hell do you get this logic from...?

It’s the whole “whim” thing. See above

You can take some of them without ending up on HF....

You don’t need to be so redundant you know. I’m not the type that needs every single post addressed in order to be convinced. If you’ve covered the point already in one of my previous posts then there’s no need to cover it again just because it’s in another post.

Evidence, please....

It seems highly unlikely to me that Shirou could have such differing views of Sakura and yet live an essentially identical life up to that point.

Differing views are required on Shirou’s part to make some of the choices in HF. What about Shirou in MoS. How did that happen if everything was identical up until that point? Why the difference? In the end it’s not that differing anyway at least not from my interpretation. It’s the difference between little to no attraction and a natural gravitation.

Erm, what?

How the hell can making a choice decide something retroactively...? And without changing anything else in the backstory?

That does not make the slightest bit of sense....

Let me try and summarise everything and explain it again and hopefully it will be clearer (we had this argument before and I don’t remember you being so confused about this). It’s not a single choice just to be clear. Shirou has to make enough choices to get into HF. If he does that then those choices show that Shirou already had an attachment to begin with. These are mere whims and the fact that he makes a lot of Sakura ones rather than anything else suggests a natural gravitation to begin with. It doesn’t change anything else in the backstory because it doesn’t need to. We’re talking about a small subconscious difference perception akin to what made HF Shirou and MoS Shirou. Is that clear enough?

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Haak

To be more specific as the flow chart suggests you need 3 or more points, so you are definitely wrong. Those first three days are different between HF and the others. This is undeniable.

And what happens if you only get two of those points? You end up on Fate or UBW. If your logic was valid, then going part-way down that route should lead to him displaying different levels of affection towards Sakura throughout the rest of the game.

Also, at least one of the choices you need to make to get onto HF isn't really all that "Sakura-centric". You get to choose to make a side-dish, and (whilst the description does include "since Sakura's coming), it's not really strongly related to her. But, as a result, she sees the bruise you have a day earlier, which changes events substantially. Similarly, choosing to walk Sakura home (which you can do prior to finishing UBW and Taiga jumps in instead of you, preventing all the other Sakura options from being given) isn't really a "romantic" gesture, it's just something you'd do to protect a friend.

You are, of course, right that you need to make certain choices to get onto the HF route, but the reason for that is that those choices make Shirou more aware of his feelings for Sakura and, more importantly, make Zouken aware of Shirou. That allows Zouken to activate her as a Grail, which is why you need to walk Sakura home on the first day for HF to happen.

If your logic was correct, then just offering to walk her home should lead to the HF route, even if Taiga jumps in and says she'll do it, because it shows the same level of concern for Sakura either way.

Saber’s thing was one of my main pieces of evidence (the fact that you need to make certain choices being the other).

What, you mean the "piece of evidence" that actually proves nothing?

Indeed the reason he lets Saber go on patrol is because he is already interested in Sakura more. I suppose you could say that choosing those scenes causes Shirou to become more aware of his interest.

Well, there are multiple explanations, and I've not read that scene for some time, so I can't say for sure. But, regardless, that is not in any way "proof" of your interpretation.

You have zero evidence for this.

Which is exactly the same amount of evidence as you have, so....

Differing views are required on Shirou’s part to make some of the choices in HF. What about Shirou in MoS. How did that happen if everything was identical up until that point? Why the difference? In the end it’s not that differing anyway at least not from my interpretation. It’s the difference between little to no attraction and a natural gravitation.

I can accept the idea that minor changes in his thought processes cause divergences between the different routes. However, "I love Sakura" vs. "I have no attraction to her" is not a minor difference, especially when you can obtain most of the "wow, Sakura is attractive" scenes and not follow the HF route.

Let me try and summarise everything and explain it again and hopefully it will be clearer (we had this argument before and I don’t remember you being so confused about this). It’s not a single choice just to be clear. Shirou has to make enough choices to get into HF. If he does that then those choices show that Shirou already had an attachment to begin with. These are mere whims and the fact that he makes a lot of Sakura ones rather than anything else suggests a natural gravitation to begin with. It doesn’t change anything else in the backstory because it doesn’t need to. We’re talking about a small subconscious difference perception akin to what made HF Shirou and MoS Shirou. Is that clear enough?

But that doesn't make sense, because having feelings that differ that much would cause him to act differently before the war, too.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Haak

You mean the choices where he does something stupid and dies because of it? Yeah I would kinda argue that, but I wouldn't say not skillful or trained at all, but simply not skillful enough. That he just made a single mistake and got punished for it (or was just unlucky). I mean in the end each Dead End is technically only one bad decision. And really in a lot of fights it's actually the state of the mind that matters a lot, not just the skill. He could have just not been in a good enough state of mind that day.

I'm specifically speaking of a routine day (Dojo training or Cooking with Sakura). Neither of those options are about anything, there wasn't any punishment, it was to know Shirou Emiya before the war begins (the very first day).

Originally Posted by Haak

As for the rest, I certainly agree that Sakura's love had a basis to start off with. I don't think Rin's was based on awe or infatuation but rather that close bond that forms when two allies work together. Saber's however was most certainly that. Nasu even said it himself that it's one of those Boy Meets Girl things. He loves that trope.

Nasu loves many troupes (Sakura can be the Mad Scientist/Magus' Beautiful Daughter). Anyway, Rin was Shirou's idol. He certainly admired her first, then became her friend second. Also both Saber and Rin were Shirou's mentors in something (sword and magic), so there's some bit of teacher/student there (kinky).

[Haak]

Spoiler for Cherry Lover:

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

And what happens if you only get two of those points? You end up on Fate or UBW. If your logic was valid, then going part-way down that route should lead to him displaying different levels of affection towards Sakura throughout the rest of the game.

I’ll repeat what I said: Shirou’s choices were mere whims. The amount required to set HF is enough to say there must be some gravitation towards her already but anything below that could be counted as coincidence. Now obviously in real life there’s no set line like that but since this VN uses flags and such the set lines are already in place anyway...

Also, at least one of the choices you need to make to get onto HF isn't really all that "Sakura-centric". You get to choose to make a side-dish, and (whilst the description does include "since Sakura's coming), it's not really strongly related to her. But, as a result, she sees the bruise you have a day earlier, which changes events substantially. Similarly, choosing to walk Sakura home (which you can do prior to finishing UBW and Taiga jumps in instead of you, preventing all the other Sakura options from being given) isn't really a "romantic" gesture, it's just something you'd do to protect a friend.

It doesn’t matter if it turns out to be “Sakura-centric” or not. It’s just a subconscious natural gravitation towards someone. Being with her is enough.
The only thing this proves, if at all, is that these choices don’t make Shirou more aware of his feelings...

You are, of course, right that you need to make certain choices to get onto the HF route, but the reason for that is that those choices make Shirou more aware of his feelings for Sakura and, more importantly, make Zouken aware of Shirou. That allows Zouken to activate her as a Grail, which is why you need to walk Sakura home on the first day for HF to happen.

If that’s what you want to believe then I’m not stopping you. Fyi, I also think that’s one of the reasons...

If your logic was correct, then just offering to walk her home should lead to the HF route, even if Taiga jumps in and says she'll do it, because it shows the same level of concern for Sakura either way.

Let me repeat: I’m talking about a natural gravitation towards her. It doesn’t necessarily have to do with concern. It’s just that Shirou has enough whims centred on being around Sakura.

What, you mean the "piece of evidence" that actually proves nothing?

If you want to be a dick about it then I won't reply you know. I'll repeat what I said: It would be better if you made blunt dismissive assessments about by interpretations after you addressed all of my points. Otherwise it’s just flame baiting. It doesn't matter if my argument was the greatest man ever conceived or just insane troll logic. I'm asking you not to be so disrespectful of my interpretations. How would you like it if I said I think your interpretations silly, overly Sakura obsessive and narrow-minded? You're coming across as needlessly antagonistic again.

Well, there are multiple explanations, and I've not read that scene for some time, so I can't say for sure. But, regardless, that is not in any way "proof" of your interpretation
Which is exactly the same amount of evidence as you have, so....

You’re the one who brought up the term evidence so if you’re butt hurt about it then you only have yourself to blame. I suppose I really shouldn’t have half accepted it like I did and should’ve just throw it back at your face the first time, but i did deny it in any case. I’ll repeat myself since this didn’t get through to you the first time: It’s an interpretation. I make no pretense. I don’t have any evidence for my interpretation and neither do you. Ultimately it’s up to you.

I said this to make it clear that evidence is not the correct term to use here. If it’s not clear to you know then it should be.

I can accept the idea that minor changes in his thought processes cause divergences between the different routes. However, "I love Sakura" vs. "I have no attraction to her" is not a minor difference, especially when you can obtain most of the "wow, Sakura is attractive" scenes and not follow the HF route.

But that doesn't make sense, because having feelings that differ that much would cause him to act differently before the war, too.

So HF Shirou and MoS Shirou is not a minor difference either? I’ll keep that mind.

Also you’re straw manning me. The difference is not “No attraction” to “love”. The difference is a subconscious gravitation to no gravitation. That’s not a big difference. It's not like it's completely illogical either. Remember that Nasu has done this before with Tsukihime. In that game it wasn't even subtle about it. You actually got to choose what girl you were thinking most about before going back.

Spoiler for Thess:

Originally Posted by Thess

I'm specifically speaking of a routine day (Dojo training or Cooking with Sakura). Neither of those options are about anything, there wasn't any punishment, it was to know Shirou Emiya before the war begins (the very first day).

Oh right so you’re saying that by my logic if he doesn’t choose to train at the dojo is shows he isn’t trained at all?

But that’s not what I’m saying at all. Remember I’m not just talking about signle choices. It’s the fact that you have to choose many Sakura choices and the fact that he does it on mere whims suggests a natural gravitation beforehand. The equivalent of that for the dojo choice isn’t possible because there’s no more than one dojo choice (if he was always choosing some other random thing instead of training then I would certainly say he seems to have some natural repulsion of the dojo) but if there was then I suppose that would simply suggest he’d rather be with Sakura than train. That’s all.

[Vena]

I'm going to ask in here instead of the episode thread for F/Z, where the discussion on Gilgamesh started and then went to me asking about Gil vs. FS/N Archer, so that I talk more openly and ask a better worded question.

To summarize, the question revolves around whether or not Archer would be a natural counter to serious!Gil. I was told that Archer cannot copy Ea, so I'm fine with that, and that rules out Archer's suicide method that he could have used against Saber by tracing Excalibur and suicide-exploding with it. But, now I'm left wondering if Archer can or cannot use Avalon. In the game he uses Rho Aias as his shield, so I am unsure if he can or cannot use Avalon or if it would just have cost him too much mana in his fight with Lancer to be effective. I guess this will basically be a question of which Shirou turns into EMIYA, because only one of the three routes has Shirou lose Avalon, and in all other routes he should be able to perfectly project it because its been bound to him for so long, or that is my understanding at least. Even if he doesn't have Avalon, I was also under the impression that because of how long Shirou and it were merged, that Shirou could trace it perfectly just that it would cost a large amount of mana.

TLDR: Can Archer use Avalon?

If he can... isn't he sort of hax with a proper mage fueling him?

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Vena

I'm going to ask in here instead of the episode thread for F/Z, where the discussion on Gilgamesh started and then went to me asking about Gil vs. FS/N Archer, so that I talk more openly and ask a better worded question.

To summarize, the question revolves around whether or not Archer would be a natural counter to serious!Gil. I was told that Archer cannot copy Ea, so I'm fine with that, and that rules out Archer's suicide method that he could have used against Saber by tracing Excalibur and suicide-exploding with it. But, now I'm left wondering if Archer can or cannot use Avalon. In the game he uses Rho Aias as his shield, so I am unsure if he can or cannot use Avalon or if it would just have cost him too much mana in his fight with Lancer to be effective. I guess this will basically be a question of which Shirou turns into EMIYA, because only one of the three routes has Shirou lose Avalon, and in all other routes he should be able to perfectly project it because its been bound to him for so long, or that is my understanding at least. Even if he doesn't have Avalon, I was also under the impression that because of how long Shirou and it were merged, that Shirou could trace it perfectly just that it would cost a large amount of mana.

TLDR: Can Archer use Avalon?

If he can... isn't he sort of hax with a proper mage fueling him?

Archer can't use Avalon (it's established you need a connection to Saber for that. He doesn't have any). This has been answered by Nasu already. That's why he traces Rho Aias, instead. I suppose that Archer could win if he teams up with Bazett as his Master- maybe. As soon as Ea came out, he'll be dead.

Serious!Gilgamesh > everyone else in the fifth and fourth war (but he'll never be serious, outside of extraordinary circumstances or people like Iskander), although some of the new godmods from Extra (Nero comes to mind, she can do whatever bs she wants unless she has a headache) or Apocrypha (David and Karna in particular) could fight a serious Gilgamesh. Obviously there is also Arthuria with Avalon. Still, I don't know how far that would go (while she will be shielded of damage, if Gilgamesh knew about the shield, he would use Ea more smartly. It IS already more powerful than Excalibur).

Masters are a huge factor here as well. Lancer would have won the 5th War if Bazett didn't get trolled by Kotomine before it began, for instance. Saber and Rider (Iskandar and Medusa) are both affected under Masters like Shirou, Waver and Shinji, etc.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by Thess

Archer can't use Avalon (it's established you need a connection to Saber for that. He doesn't have any). This has been answered by Nasu already. I suppose that Archer could win if he teams up with Bazett as his Master- maybe. As soon as Ea came out, he'll be dead.

I don't really care about the serious!Gil thought anymore, I'm fine with him winning at everything forever. I was just wondering about Avalon because I was under the impression that Shirou could project it even without connections to Saber because of how long he and it had been merged, allowing him to bypass the restriction to Saber, so thanks for clearing that up. I didn't know it was already answered by Nasu. Thanks.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Vena

I don't really care about the serious!Gil thought anymore, I'm fine with him winning at everything forever. I was just wondering about Avalon because I was under the impression that Shirou could project it even without connections to Saber because of how long he and it had been merged, allowing him to bypass the restriction to Saber, so thanks for clearing that up. I didn't know it was already answered by Nasu. Thanks.

No. He can't, apparently. Since it's a weapon connected to Saber in particular and only to her (bestowed by the fairies or something). It can happen only when she's around and there's a 'connection' (like the contract). Otherwise it's useless, according to him (Nasu was asked why Archer didn't trace it instead of Rho Aias), IIRC.

I suppose there's Fragarach, but we don't see Gil or Shirou or Archer ever using it if they have it stored somewhere (probably they don't have it since it's connected specially like a virus in Bazett's bloodline?).

[Vena]

Originally Posted by Thess

No. He can't, apparently. Since it's a weapon connected to Saber in particular and only to her (bestowed by the fairies or something). It can happen only when she's around and there's a 'connection' (like the contract). Otherwise it's useless, according to him (Nasu was asked why Archer didn't trace it instead of Rho Aias), IIRC.

That's fine, I had always wondered why he'd used Rho Aias if he had Avalon, though I had assumed, much like with Excalibur, that he wouldn't have had the mana to use not that it would have had utterly no effect. Nasu's word is final though, so that's that.

If he had had Avalon, I cannot imagine what would have ever possibly been able to stop Rin/Archer in the 5th Grail War. He'd be invincible to any attack with UBW to spam death from the skies.

Originally Posted by Thess

I suppose there's Fragarach, but we don't see Gil or Shirou or Archer ever using it if they have it stored somewhere (probably they don't have it since it's connected specially like a virus in Bazett's bloodline?).

I was under the impression that Fragarach was a divine item from a curse, so it wouldn't be in GoB nor would it be traceable to be inside of UBW. Maybe if Bezett was Archer's master, then Archer would be able to envision the plans and make it but otherwise it would be just as restricted as Ea, Excalibur, or any other divine weapon.