[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 3 Banquet of the golden witch

[izmosmolnar]

Because otherwise I find it strange, how whenever we find a "master key" we kinda ignore the "bundle of keys" which contain the master key (ergo the master key is a key of that bundle), despite how we mainly used the bundle definition before. I mean, if I grab my own keyring I'm not going to call it as "my carkey/housekey/padlock key/chastity belt key" or whatever, instead I will call it my keyring or my keys (in plural not in singular like the "master key"). That's reason enough for me (of course I'm overanalyzing as usual) to doubt they are probably seperated.
However I'm not disagreeing with Chrono either. The "bundle of keys" definitely exist in later episodes too (it can be used to open several doors in the main building anyway, even if the master key could do the same), however to me it looks like starting from episode 2 they are keeping it seperately from their bundle of keys.

[Jan-Poo]

i find strange the master keys are left outside the envelopes in episode 3 in that case.

Imho there's simply no reason for Ryukishi to constantly remind us the master key is or is in a bundle of keys. It's been stated in episode1, there is an image to confirm this (which is shown on episode3 during the 6 closed room scene), there's no need to further explain it.

[maximilianjenus]

My uncle was a janitor, so it's normal for janitors servants to have a bunch of keys, even if they have a master key.

[EDIT]

though I already forgot the relevance of the key discussion.

[EDIT2]

also it's hard to create new teories ignoring the next info given on the partial patch of episode 4, anybody else has read it ?

[Jan-Poo]

it started from here:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1396

But we already have answered at least partially. The bundle of key of episode 1 either is the master key or includes the master key. The bundle of keys appear in later episodes both textually and visually. The image file representing that bundle of keys is named "master key".
Also there isn't any explicit mention of any change on this matter.

[Marion]

Master Key = The Bundle of Keys.

Think about it this way. In episode 1 red text didn't exist - it was only introduced episode 2. If Beatrice said 'There are only 5 bundle of keys in existance' then Battler would probably piss her off with questions such as 'how much is a bundle' or 'are there any extra copies of certain keys on the bundle' and more :P

I'm sure the three keys go like this:

1 key for all doors in the mansion (excluding Kinzo's study)
1 key for all doors in the guest hotel
And 1 more mystery key. Maybe to the boiler room?

[Jan-Poo]

maybe that goes for most of the servants, but Genji's bundle has around ten different keys:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1401

The game images (photographs) are not to be considered a perfect representation of what's inside the game. Certainly in this case if Ryukishi took all the trouble the insert an image of a bundle of keys, while images of single keys already existed, there must be a reason, however the number of keys their size and shape are probably not the right ones.
It's like the dinner room, the table at the center only has three seats per side while the game states there are six of them.

However Marion's interpretation isn't bad, in fact is unlikely that a single key can fit in both the mansion's locks and the guesthouse's locks. So the bundle of keys is actually a bundle of master keys, and the whole bundle is called master key for simplicity?

You knows where this leads, if this is the case, there might be only 5 master keys, but if the master keys themselves can be split in several different keys...

[maximilianjenus]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

maybe that goes for most of the servants, but Genji's bundle has around ten different keys:

The game images (photographs) are not to be considered a perfect representation of what's inside the game.

hahaha, that reminds me of keichi falling form the "unfallable" bridge in the tatarigoroshi.

[USCPharmacist]

However Marion's interpretation isn't bad, in fact is unlikely that a single key can fit in both the mansion's locks and the guesthouse's locks. So the bundle of keys is actually a bundle of master keys, and the whole bundle is called master key for simplicity?

You knows where this leads, if this is the case, there might be only 5 master keys, but if the master keys themselves can be split in several different keys..


Hummm than without testing all the keys, we don't even know these 5 "set" of keys are the same. It's possible someone split the keys.

But anyway, I still don't know one thing. What happened at the end of each episode that prevented the police from figuring out the murder? All the things the culprit did during the episode are to confuse the people on the island. But none of those thing really help when a gang of police arrive on the island combing for clues. I wonder if there was like a huge explosion at the end that destroyed all the evidence. That would explain why they called it an incident in EP4.

I hope is not volcanic gas...

[izmosmolnar]

edit: answered in PM
Ps: Please, use spoiler tags about episode 4 in here.

[Jan-Poo]

Actually you can't talk about ep4 at all here, not even in spoiler tags.

[Kitsu]

Exactly for such topics exists the EP 4 thread and answering with PM is also a possibility

Now my theory/question thingy

Spoiler for KANON:

Spoiler for Ep 3:

The whole thing with the red and death thingy. The red web...
Beatrice always states Kanon or Shannon are dead. Well if I think about it more closely. Kanon and Shannon aren't their real name and if I remember right he and Jessica had this discussion about "At work being Kanon and after work being a person that's not Kanon" and those times talking about his real name. So "Kanon" is dead but the real person *inserthisrealname* is still alive. And I know this is lame, but I want a explanation! My nickname for him is "Deadmanwalking" because he friggin' appears two times after his death.

Spoiler for Ep 2 Tips/2 twilight:

What's up with the tips of Kanon! Something that doesn't exist is surely something of world of witches. Or something..or A Illusion is something..blablabla...so what? Kanon is illusion? Or wait...he doesn't make sense.
Or it means this:
The death of Kanon is a pure illusion since his corpse doesn't exists and his corpse/death his an illusion.

Also, if we leave out the whole master key discussion who would be the person which could easily lock Jessica's door. Jessica herself! Also it was stated in red like this
Inside the room are only Battler, Nanjo, Rosa, Shannon, etc and Jessica who is dead!!!
This is awfully suspicious...may it's just a trap but still. Also I'm still a little bit shocked how Shannon just takes the death of her "little brother" and her friend so casually. Crying and pitying herself but for persons like Jessica and Kanon, who both helped her not a single tear!! Without Jessica she would have never dated George! And Kanon always "cheered" her up or helped her everytime he could. Instead all she says it wasn't me! How nice is that?

No wonder he is always ranked high in the doubtful poll.

[Jan-Poo]

Spoiler for Kanon:

The "name" problem is bugging me too, but it's yet again a problem of definitions. In other words Battler should ask Beatrice what she means exactly when she says "Jessica" "Krauss" etc. Because without any context those sentences might be true in several different ways. I can also state that Jessica died because sure a person named Jessica must have died already somewhere in the world.
Battler assumes that those names refer to the same persons whom he associate those names with, but this could be a fatal assumption.

Regarding episode2 tips, i see them as yet another "pro" for the Kanon=Shannon theory. It is stated that Kanon definitely died because the witch said so, but at the same time it is said that Kanon is an "illusion". So yeah Kanon died, but when?
The Kanon=Shannon theory can explain this by stating that the real Kanon died in the past and Shannon is impersonating him, thus creating the illusion that Kanon is still alive.

[Kitsu]

Spoiler for Kanon:

Well the chance that there was a person called Jessica and written like that is so low...that it's about 0%. The problem I see is that Beatrice always say "Kanon is dead" but Kanon is just a fake name strictly used while working. (Look at the tips) So there is no person called that way on Rokkenjima because "Kanon" is just fake. Do you know Tsubasa Reservoir Chronicle or xxxHolic? In those two there is also the heavy meaning of the true name. But the name thing leads to another problem. Somewhere in Episode 1 it was told that the children of the Fukoin House get new names. In this case that would be Shannon for example, because her !real! Name is actually Sayo. Means that this is her new official name and not strictly used at work. Also Kanon always refers to her as Shannon and isn't called by his true name after his work. So what's right and what's wrong?

The Shannon=Kanon Theory has many flaws...flaws which the "pro" arguments can't outweigh. There are two corpses in two of the games which is impossible. Also the police stated that Kanon and Shannon died in the mass murder Rokkenjima only four persons gone missing, means that the others are found dead otherwise the police would have labeled them missing as well. Also we see Kanon standing at Shannon's corpse.
Another thing is the boobs....I know I said that already...but...it's impossible for Shannon to bind them so no one notices also...Kanon works on Rokkenjima and has contact to many persons every day...if he dies and Shannon decides to impersonate him it would have been noticed! Also it's impossible because they'll be assigned to different tasks at the same time!
And in Episode 1 we now the location of both at the same time, Shannon is in the mansion and Kanon in the guest house with Genji(who btw saw both at the same time). And no don't tell me we can't trust him! I think the furniture are the people we can trust the most! Beatrice said that herself she can control humans but is unable to control furniture. Even if they are present in most of the magic scenes I think they are more trustworthy then the adults and George.Oh and if you noticed the point of view always changes the time Beatrice's appeares in Episode 2. Shannon was thinking in her point of view but the time Beatrice appeared it changed to the neutral one.Also...without love you can't the truth. If you doubt everyone who isn't Battler (and there are people who suspect him too)...I think then you can't trust anything and you should just read the Tips...and forget the whole story about it. because there are only about 3 scenes directly from Battler's point of view (in Episode 1 more but in the others....). but why trust Battler? see my point? Doubting everything is end of a "detective" you need to use your common sense and your intuition.
Oh and my intuition says to me that Kanon and Shannon aren't that innocent. We don't know much about them almost nothing from their past and living before the orphanage. Also the Fukoin Hous must be the strangest orphanage ever! new names for children....I know kids from an orphanage...they never got a changed name unless they were involved in some sort of crime. Just a train of thought.

[Jan-Poo]

Spoiler for Kanon:

eh i never said that theory is perfect, i'm well aware of the flaws. However my instinct tingles and even if Shannon and Kanon are not the same persons something tells me that there's something very wrong about them. And not just them being the culprit, but something like a big secret, something a normal person would never think of.

About Genji he is the only person that interacts with both Shannon and Kanon at the same time, outside from fantasy scenes. I don't think i'm mistaken about this, but if you can think of something that i'm missing, please try it.
This of course means that to accept the Kannon=Shannon theory you necessarily need to think that Genji is not trustworthy. But it's not really hard for me, Genji is the last person that i trust in this whole story. He is blatantly lying. We have definitive proof that he lied in more than one occasion. He tries to make everyone believe he doesn't know anything, but there's no way he is so clueless. The Kuwadorian for example, there's no way he doesn't know about that, and that means he must also know about that Beatrice that lived there and he must know that's where Kinzo went when he "disappeared".
So it's not like i don't trust anyone... well maybe i do, but Genji is at the top of my untrustworthy list.

[Kitsu]

Spoiler for Kanon:

Yup, there is something wrong with them...I said that, too but the flaws overweight the pros. It just can't withstand so big flaws, in my opinion at least. Like I said my sense also tell me their is something behind them and the whole Fukoin House. Seriously but I don't think one of them is the culprit no, for that they are made way to suspicious especially Kanon. It just doesn't feel right.

Well Kanon and Shannon are both seen the same time by Kumasawa and wait and in the manga at least by Kumasawa, Gohda and Genji at the same time, I'll check if that happens in the VN, too. Yup!! All the servants at the same time!^^
Well at least in the VN says that the time Kanon went to get the cousins Shannon was with Kumasawa and that all three were together before and Genji

BTw Kumasawa is bad at lying she always get nervous

Edit: Wait a second....after they are alone...
Kanon: "Genji-san did Beatrice-sama really return?"
Genji: "....I don't know"
Kanon: "I'll inform the master."

I don't think that there are many illusions in EP1..so...why do they think that Beatrice could return? Dead is dead, also I don't think Kanon would knew of the real Beato.

[Jan-Poo]

Spoiler for Beatrice:

If you mean "that" Beatrice Kanon certainly didn't met her. However is that the only Beatrice? There is also a theory about the existence of three different Beatrice, the one that Kinzo met after the war, the one that Rosa met in the kuwadorian and a third Beatrice that is 18-19 years old (the one seen in episode2).
There are are several places that are meant for Beatrice: The Kuwadorian itself, the honor guest room and finally the room with the ingots.
We know that the Beatrice that met Rosa interacted with the servants and if a simple gardener knew about her then we can safely assume that any servant with the family crest knew about her. In other words what is told to us a a "legend among the servants" is actually a true story. The Servants know Beatrice exists or existed, and she is the other Master of the island.
The problem is: does this other Beatrice truly exist? The people count stated in red seems to deny this possibility. However there are two possible ways to avoid this problem:

1) The supposed 18 known persons in the island are actually less than that. One or more of them is actually not on Rokkenjima (see Shannon=Kanon theory)

2) One of the 18 known persons IS Beatrice.

Number two the split in other two theories:

1) Kumasawa is the original Beatrice

2) Jessica is the third Beatrice.

The last is kinda intriguing for many reasons but there isn't anything substantial to prove this. I have however tried to collect any possible evidence and i found that:

Jessica and Beatrice are the only characters that do the "kukuku" sound (*cackle*cackle*)
Jessica and Beatrice are the only characters that do the "mu" face expression.
Jessica and young Beatrice are extremely similar in appearance and age.
Jessica technically could be the daughter of the Beatrice that Rosa met (no conflict in the timeline)

[Kitsu]

Spoiler for Beatrice:

If got a number three
There are no more then 18 Persons on Rokkenjima.
In what time? In the beginning in the end or what?

To your
2.2)
I kinda dislike that one...because it makes me shiver and uneasy to think that Jessica is the mastermind. That's why I would think that Beatrice doesn't necessarily means killer.
also there is a little flaw...Jessica is supposed to look more and more like her mother.
And now I'm gonna tell you one of the most embarrassing theories I've ever come up with.
Natsuhi=Second Beatrice, the one of the Kuwadorian.

[Jan-Poo]

Spoiler for crazy theories:

Beatrice the mastermind? Not necessarily. And then again we can't say that there is only one Beatrice. However it's not like a believe Jessica is Beatrice myself, but i'm not completely shutting off this possibility.

About your theory: wow! Just wow! But there's a little problem, it was stated in red that that particular Beatrice (the one that Rosa met) definitely died. How do you explain that? °°

[Kitsu]

Spoiler for Natsuhi:

Wow? Is that theory so bad and unreasonable and random?
But there is a rather simple answer Amnesia...After a fall that high it is reasonable. So "Beatrice" is dead and "Natsuhi" alive.
That would explain why Kinzo acted so nice towards her in EP1 one.
Anf f you want to open a seat for a 19 Person and a opening in the red web. The time she remembers she isn't "Natsuhi" anymore but "Beatrice" if you would go that far.

[Marion]

Yeah but there's a problem with timelines.

Spoiler for Timelines, EP 3:

According to from what we have Jessica is 18 by 1986. That means she was born 1968, but "Beatrice" died 1967. So unless Jessica isn't Natsuhi's daughter then it should be impossible for Natsuhi to be Beatrice.