Psycho-Pass - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Actually, I think there's plenty of evidence that Makishima lacks empathy.

That evidence is the fact that he's a major character in this show and we have yet to see him show the slightest amount of real, true caring for anybody.

He discards his "friends" with contempt, and contemptuous ease.

To the degree that he is friendly and complimentary to other people, it's only because they become "an interest" to him. He doesn't truly care about them. In fact, if he finds you to be "an interest", it basically means he's almost certainly going to try to kill you at some point.

Even with Guseong, I felt that Makishima simply had some respect for him and viewed him as a valuable ally. To a certain extent, Makishima was just using him. I doubt Makishima is crying many tears over his passing.


Look, this isn't even remotely normal. Very few people are islands unto themselves like this. Most people need, or at least want, to truly care about someone. Who does Makishima care about? Who's death would bring him sadness? Why, I even find it hard to imagine a Makishima in mourning. That's how out of character it would be for him.


Plus, this is what the Director said to Makishima when "she" tried to recruit him...

"The first qualification to be a constituent member of the Sibyl System is to have an irregular personality that doesn't fit in with mankind's conventional standards. Without aimlessly empathizing with others, without being lost to emotion, you should be able to oversee human actions from an outsider's viewpoint. Such talent is desired."

That's not exactly the same as saying "zero empathy, no emotion", but it does lean in that direction.


Makishima cares about society in a general sense because he doesn't want to live in a society of sheeple since then society will be "less interesting" to him (i.e. more sheeple = fewer "interesting" people). I have serious doubts that altruism informs his decision-making whatsoever.

Right, Makishima is definitely a psychopath. He has all the classic signs and being interested in people is not the same as showing empathy.

Another example is how he was so easily able to get a job as the school teacher. Psychopaths appear relatively normal on the outside to society. They have no problem fitting in.

They are also extremely charming, organized, and completely in control of their emotions.

I am just confused what part of this does not fit Makishima.

As for Guseong as you said if Makishima was not a psychopath he might actually show concern for his "friend's" death which unless it is off screen, he has definitely not.

Once again I don't think the title "Psychopass" was random.

[Dengar]

I hate it when people use phrases such as "classical symptom of X syndrome". Any self-respecting psychologist would stay the hell away from those words.

Aside from that, psychopathy doesn't even HAVE clear "classical" symptoms since it's such a broad classification that's measured on different scales and different psychopaths can behave radically different from eachother. The fact that "all psychopaths are only into personal gain" is also a common misconception, since that is just one of the possible symptoms.

Furthermore, ASPD and psychopathy are two different things.

[Triple_R]

Well, whether we classify him as a psychopath or a sociopath or whatever, I definitely think that Makishima displays a decided lack of empathy.

A person with empathy should have at least somebody in his or her life that s/he cares about the basic well-being of. Who is that person for Makishima? I see nobody like that for him. And we've seen him interact with a lot of people, so...


Plus, Makishima's lack of empathy is explicitly part of why he was recruited to join Sibyl in the first place.

[Dengar]

I think most of us can agree that Makishima has no empathy.

At best he has admiration for humanity, or for what humanity could be, but that's something completely different.

[monir]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Once again I don't think the title "Psychopass" was random.

I remember wondering about the odd choice of title after reading the synopsis. My interest peaked when I thought about the possibility that perhaps the enforcers are going to be psychos who are given special pass. Some what similar to getting a Hallpass so you can use it during class to walk the hallway unchallenged for a smoke in the bathroom. While I wasn't quite right, I wasn't quite wrong either after the conclusion of episode 17.

P.S. Congratulations to reaching 200+ posts' for the first time in an episode discussion thread in Psycho Pass. This has been one of the few best forum I've been part of where the quality of posting and discussion has been above average in general.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I hate it when people use phrases such as "classical symptom of X syndrome". Any self-respecting psychologist would stay the hell away from those words.

Aside from that, psychopathy doesn't even HAVE clear "classical" symptoms since it's such a broad classification that's measured on different scales and different psychopaths can behave radically different from eachother. The fact that "all psychopaths are only into personal gain" is also a common misconception, since that is just one of the possible symptoms.

Furthermore, ASPD and psychopathy are two different things.

I am not a psychologist and I am not medically diagnosing anyone. I am analyzing a fictional character on a message board.

However I think it is pretty clear what Gen Urobuchi was trying to portray with Makishima and that is definitely a psychopath and yes there are classic signs of what a psychopath is (vs a sociopath for example), Makishima fits those characteristics.

However this is not a medical study, Gen Urobuchi isn't a psychologist either last time I checked.


edit: Also I am not sure why you brought up ASPD because nothing I said about Makishima fits ASPD at all. Someone who is charming, can fit into society, in control but lacks empathy doesn't sound like ASPD to me.

Again I am only analyzing on the standpoint of what Gen Urobuchi is doing with the character.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by cyth

@MeoTwister5: I am inclined to agree with you on Makishima. After witnessing the state of populace, probably everyone who's watched the show thought to himself "wow, what a bunch of sheep." This is why I think this discussion needs to evaluate the populace and the characters in terms of human, inhuman, animal and beast.

But only psychopaths do that...

The introduction of artificial intelligence in sci-fi literature was to examine the state of the fabric of human soul, and I think the sentiments in Psycho-pass seem to be that humans have regressed into an animal-like state.

I'm sure medieval people would have a few choice words about what a bunch of degenerates we are, too. Just because we've adapted to a different environment doesn't mean we're wrong, or deserving of death.

The killing of Akane's friend felt much more like stock slaughter than a murder. It was one of those "let's kill a kitten because it's a dumb animal" type of moments.

Only to a psychopath. Which says more about Makishima than about her. For that matter, I'm really starting to wonder about you.

There are more evidence for this type of worldview: latent criminals under the Investigation Bureau are referred to as dogs,

I won't deny there's a deshumanizing element to the way they're treated. But you're reaching. State Alchemists in FMA were also called dogs. Vimes is called Vetinari's terrier. It's a common monicker.

then the Senguji arc was all about animality.

Hm, what?

Going by what you suggest, it's hard to characterize Makishima as either human or beast.

He may be a psychopath, but so what? He's still human.

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

I think we need to realize that nowhere in DSM-IV-TR does it state that psychopathy aka Antisocial Personality Disorder actually requires dissociation from logical capacity.

In fact the diagnosis for APD/Psychopathy shows that "psychosis" or to a less medically correct term "insanity" is not a requirement. Personality disorders are highlighted by the fact that the person does suffer episodic "breaks" from consistent state of function. One of the highlights of APD is lack of empathy and... let's face it I have NOT YET seen any evidence that Makishima is actually incapable of empathy. A psychopath/APD sufferer does everything for personal gain and not for anyone else.

In fact it would seem that he's actually doing it for society at large. He seems genuinely concerned and maybe even empathetic to humanity's state of existence. His actions and plans are very, very morally questionable, but his intentions are being presented as somewhat altruistic. He's not simple doing this for himself, he's doing this for everyone, just in his own twisted and violent way, but he seems to have society's best interest at heart.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, but strictly speaking by DSM terms he's less likely to be a true psychopath.

He's doing it for his own aesthetic concerns of what society should be. It's got nothing to do with anyone's welfare.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Your other mistake is the assumption that a psychopath can't follow logic when logic is in fact the only thing they follow.

This is downright silly to say. Yes, "psychopaths" are logical, but they are following their own logic. Not ours. Their logic is going to be illogical for our society because they follow different fundamental standards.

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

But isn't Makishima giving you a bit of the gray you seek from the system. I still think Makishima is a criminal and a psychopath himself, and yet he is absolutely correct on the evils of this system.

I have thought about this actually, and if the system is an ever growing collective conscience, then yes Makishima would provide that. Unfortunately, it's not exactly an attractive job to an individual like him .

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I am not a psychologist and I am not medically diagnosing anyone. I am analyzing a fictional character on a message board.

However I think it is pretty clear what Gen Urobuchi was trying to portray with Makishima and that is definitely a psychopath and yes there are classic signs of what a psychopath is (vs a sociopath for example), Makishima fits those characteristics.

However this is not a medical study, Gen Urobuchi isn't a psychologist either last time I checked.


edit: Also I am not sure why you brought up ASPD because nothing I said about Makishima fits ASPD at all. Someone who is charming, can fit into society, in control but lacks empathy doesn't sound like ASPD to me.

Again I am only analyzing on the standpoint of what Gen Urobuchi is doing with the character.

The ASPD thing was more of a reply to MeoTwister.

Also, Sociopathy isn't actually a thing.

[Dauerlutscher]

Can't wait to see how this crazy asshole, jerk, psychopath, sociopath or however his issues are called will be forced to pay for his murdering. Akane shooting him in the head by the end of the show? I would like that. Maybe he should just die in the same way how he killed Yuki? I would like that even more.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

But only psychopaths do that...

Cultural critics and ideologists do that. You're not suggesting that thinking in broad, macroscopic terms about humanity somehow reduces us to mere psychopaths now, do you?

I'm sure medieval people would have a few choice words about what a bunch of degenerates we are, too. Just because we've adapted to a different environment doesn't mean we're wrong, or deserving of death.
[...]
Only to a psychopath. Which says more about Makishima than about her. For that matter, I'm really starting to wonder about you.

Not only to psychopaths, in terms of the way Yuki was portrayed. It was deliberate how a comparison was drawn between her and Akane, how Akane was at the top of society, while Yuki was an average woman, having petty worries in comparison to Akane's responsibilities. Then during Senguji's arc, where she had to strip down, this event was basically her death flag, because Urobuchi (or the director) wanted to signify she was the sacrificial lamb--it was a majestic display of mammal flesh. Her very involvement in that arc was, again, a drawn comparison between her and Akane. I'm not sure whether you picked up on it, but her death was supposed to be shocking, and not just because of the nature of murder, but because Yuki was decidedly a nobody, somebody who was born into a system which only fed and nourished her body, but not her soul. Her being portrayed as an animal says much more about the system than it does about Makishima.

By the way, the way you're pointing fingers here seems like a manipulative gesture only a psychopath would do. See what I did there? Let's not stoop to that level, please.

I won't deny there's a deshumanizing element to the way they're treated. But you're reaching. State Alchemists in FMA were also called dogs. Vimes is called Vetinari's terrier. It's a common monicker.

Hm, what?

In FMA, they were called dogs due to the subservient nature of their jobs. In this show, they're called dogs because they wanted to portray them as lesser humans, first and foremost. Which is obviously not true, now that we know of Sibyl's self-serving nature.

As for Senguji's arc, if you can't draw up any connections between motifs of artificial bodies, hunting grounds and rifles, dogs, traps and the like, where main characters were basically reduced to mice in a labyrinth and had to prove their humanity, then I don't know what show you've been watching.

He may be a psychopath, but so what? He's still human.

Is he now? If you ask a person with more liberal inclinations, he will most likely claim that Makishima is a human with a disorder, a problem which doesn't stem from his nature but rather from his upbringing, a problem that can one day, perhaps, be medically or otherwise solvable. But if you ask the same question to a traditionalist conservative, he will flat out reject this proposal and say Makishima is a beast that needs to be put down. So you see, whether Makishima is human or not isn't an easy question to answer, considering some experts believe psychopathy, as opposed to sociopathy, is more of a genetic predisposition, and empathy is an emotion that is very high on the scale of human characteristics. If you live in a culture where being human doesn't merely equate to a mammal with certain types of physical characterists BUT ALSO his/her ability to develop interhuman relationships and thus support the structure of culture, then these standards are set a little higher.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by cyth

The killing of Akane's friend felt much more like stock slaughter than a murder. It was one of those "let's kill a kitten because it's a dumb animal" type of moments. There are more evidence for this type of worldview: latent criminals under the Investigation Bureau are referred to as dogs, then the Senguji arc was all about animality.

That's because Makishima is an extreme sociopath who lacks empathy. The average person would find it almost impossible to casually kill someone like that without any external pressures (training/indoctrination or fear for their lives). Makishima's ability to kill someone under these circumstances is less a commentary about the Psycho-Pass world, and more about what kind of person Makishima is.




Frankly I think something that comes up with Makishima is that ALLOT of people had unrealistic expectations for what his motives were. I think some people latched on a bit too hard to the "detached cool intellectual philosopher" angle that Makishima presented, and didn't pay enough attention to what Makishima was actually doing throughout the series. I think that's why back in episode 16 there was some surprise and backlash from some people when Makishima dared to get excited over the prospect of being able to kill/maim his arch nemesis.

Makishima's behavior in these last two episodes are only surprising if you believe that he's some kind of alien being that doesn't have a howling blood thirsty murder monkey inside him like every other homo sapien. What makes Makishima unusual is that instead of locking his murder monkey out or letting it run wild, he structures its play times very meticulously.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by cyth

Cultural critics and ideologists do that. You're not suggesting that thinking in broad, macroscopic terms about humanity somehow reduces us to mere psychopaths now, do you?

Denying whole populations their humanity? Thinking "they're just sheep, it's ok to slaughter them"? Yeah, that's pretty psychopathic.

Not only to psychopaths, in terms of the way Yuki was portrayed. It was deliberate how a comparison was drawn between her and Akane, how Akane was at the top of society, while Yuki was an average woman, having petty worries in comparison to Akane's responsibilities. Then during Senguji's arc, where she had to strip down, this event was basically her death flag, because Urobuchi (or the director) wanted to signify she was the sacrificial lamb--it was a majestic display of mammal flesh. Her very involvement in that arc was, again, a drawn comparison between her and Akane. I'm not sure whether you picked up on it, but her death was supposed to be shocking, and not just because of the nature of murder, but because Yuki was decidedly a nobody, somebody who was born into a system which only fed and nourished her body, but not her soul. Her being portrayed as an animal says much more about the system than it does about Makishima.

Aren't you being inconsistent? Or are "animals" getting slaughtered is supposed to be shocking?

More to the point - yes, her last moments were dehumanizing. But that's because she was captured by Makishima, who doesn't really see anyone as "human". It's really all him. It's not like the real world doesn't have its share of psychos who are just as willing to treat other people as toys, or pieces of meat.

By the way, the way you're pointing fingers here seems like a manipulative gesture only a psychopath would do. See what I did there? Let's not stoop to that level, please.

I was shooting more for humor than actual manipulation, but I'm in fundamental disagreement with your willingness to decree that some people are just animals just because their outlook's slightly different from what we consider as the norm.

In FMA, they were called dogs due to the subservient nature of their jobs. In this show, they're called dogs because they wanted to portray them as lesser humans, first and foremost. Which is obviously not true, now that we know of Sibyl's self-serving nature.

As for Senguji's arc, if you can't draw up any connections between motifs of artificial bodies, hunting grounds and rifles, dogs, traps and the like, where main characters were basically reduced to mice in a labyrinth and had to prove their humanity, then I don't know what show you've been watching.

It's a difference in point of view. I don't consider the actions of others to impinge on their humanity. In other words, a rape victim isn't a slut, and being treated like lab rats doesn't make them rodents.

Is he now? If you ask a person with more liberal inclinations, he will most likely claim that Makishima is a human with a disorder, a problem which doesn't stem from his nature but rather from his upbringing, a problem that can one day, perhaps, be medically or otherwise solvable. But if you ask the same question to a traditionalist conservative, he will flat out reject this proposal and say Makishima is a beast that needs to be put down.

That's a cowardly way to think about it. Whether he needs to be put down or not is another subject. He's a human being. He's got higher brain functions and everything.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

I think that's why back in episode 16 there was some surprise and backlash from some people when Makishima dared to get excited over the prospect of being able to kill/maim his arch nemesis.

That event (even before that; when he fought those guys with helmets) was what made him exciting to me as a character. It adds to the perfection he thinks himself to be, which is what he demands of humanity.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Denying whole populations their humanity? Thinking "they're just sheep, it's ok to slaughter them"? Yeah, that's pretty psychopathic.

Hey, man, you brought that up, not me. And the cultural critics I subscribe to certainly don't think along those lines.

More to the point - yes, her last moments were dehumanizing. But that's because she was captured by Makishima, who doesn't really see anyone as "human". It's really all him. It's not like the real world doesn't have its share of psychos who are just as willing to treat other people as toys, or pieces of meat.

This is where our discussion starts spinning in circles, but to attempt at closing the loop myself I'll just say that anime is also a visual medium. What's being discussed here is not just the mental model Urobuchi decided for Makishima, but also how Makishima acting out his character fleshes out the charateristics of the world around him. Of course Yuki would be safer in the hands of another man, but that wouldn't change her nature.

I was shooting more for humor than actual manipulation, but I'm in fundamental disagreement with your willingness to decree that some people are just animals just because their outlook's slightly different from what we consider as the norm.
[...]
It's a difference in point of view. I don't consider the actions of others to impinge on their humanity. In other words, a rape victim isn't a slut, and being treated like lab rats doesn't make them rodents.

I am not sure whether you're talking about Yuki's POV or Makishima's (because there is a difference), so I'll just lay it out flat. What I believe is that people have started to accrue certain animalistic tendencies because of how our culture has developed over the last few decades. Maybe I am not talking about your culture, perhaps just my own, but in the reality in which I live in, I am finding more and more evidence this is so. This ties into my own larger worldview, for which I probably don't have the space nor desire to describe, but what I want to say is that I believe Psycho-pass expresses this notion to a degree. Whether you agree or disagree, I have no say in that, I am merely arguing Urobuchi has taken this notion to its maximum extreme. He painted a world where people have freely subjugated themselves to Sibyl, because they believed a computer would do a better job at handling their reality than themselves. Forget psychopaths running the show, the former is startling enough, something to which I would never subjugate myself to. People let go of their free will, and Makishima is the non-grata champion of it. Figures why he's such a great character.

That's a cowardly way to think about it. Whether he needs to be put down or not is another subject. He's a human being. He's got higher brain functions and everything.

Cowardly? How so? Dolphins have higher brain functions, it doesn't make them human.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Denying whole populations their humanity? Thinking "they're just sheep, it's ok to slaughter them"? Yeah, that's pretty psychopathic.

I don't think that cyth is saying that Makishima is right to think it's Ok to slaughter them. But rather that them having turned into sheeple is, at least to some degree, on them, and it makes some sense for Makishima to look down on them for allowing themselves to be somewhat dehumanized by the Sibyl system.

Does that mean it's Ok for Makishima to slaughter them? No, it doesn't. But it could help to explain why it's so easy for Makishima to do so. And perhaps there's some underlying theme there about how we humans can degrade ourselves into little more than cattle, if we're not careful when it comes to the societal systems that govern us.


But while I think that such a theme is still viable for this show, I also don't think that Makishima's murderous acts demonstrates it anymore. He's no less willing to murder Kougami and Touma (people who decidedly don't act like sheep) than he was Akane's friend. It's hard to make the point "This man kills with contempt and contemptuous ease because of what humanity has allowed itself to regress/devolve into" when the man in question is just as willing to kill people with strong, independent minds like Kougami as he is your Jane Average like Akane's friend.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Does that mean it's Ok for Makishima to slaughter them? No, it doesn't. But it could help to explain why it's so easy for Makishima to do so. And perhaps there's some underlying theme there about how we humans can degrade ourselves into little more than cattle, if we're not careful when it comes to the societal systems that govern us.

I don't really agree with that. Especially since it seems to be working under the assumption that the average psycho-pass citizen is ALLOT more passive than we've actually seen them to be in the show. Remember these are the people who DID start forming vigilante lynch mobs in order to counter the helmet murder threats. And I'm not exactly sure Yuki acted anything like an untrained civilian trying to keep her cool. No. The citizens of the Psycho-Pass world aren't sheep. At least not to the extreme degree that some people are talking like they are.

Quite honestly I think people who are fascinated with Makishima are trying to create bullshit excuses to weasel around the fact that Makishima would be just as eager to slaughter people under any circumstances. You'd be just as much of a sheep for a guy like him as a resident of the Sybil Dystopia.


Really people. Do you think that fundamentally, most of you are much more incredible than somebody like Yuki? You really think that if you were made helpless and had a knife to your throat, you wouldn't be just as pathetic? If you think otherwise, it's the most profound and disgusting kinda arrogance.


Somebody like Makishima is made to kill. And he'll do it regardless of whether or not he's in a high tech Sybil dystopia, or in a modern 1st world country. The most you can say is that Makishima would have a larger supply of *interesting* victims somewhere else.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

I don't really agree with that.

Well, I don't agree with it any more myself. But it was plausible up until the last few episodes at least.

Makishima is basically a more refined, less theatrical, more realistic, more "anime" version of The Joker. If you put The Joker in Makishima's place, he'd probably be doing more or less what Makishima is.

Really people. Do you think that fundamentally, most of you are much more incredible than somebody like Yuki?

Hey, I'm not saying there's anything particularly wrong with how Yuki handled the situation she was put in. Obviously she was in a situation beyond what most people in the real world could handle. Only somebody trained in the US Marines or something akin to that would have handled Yuki's situation better than she did. So no, I'm not saying I would have handled it better than she did.

But look, there is something disheartening and worrisome about people that could so easily accept a form of totalitarian government, with such things as "authorized music" and no judiciary and where people are just gorily killed for some gun getting bad readings from them. I mean, this is pretty extreme police state stuff.

[cyth]

Man, some people just keep on moving the goal post.

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

Quite honestly I think people who are fascinated with Makishima are trying to create bullshit excuses to weasel around the fact that Makishima would be just as eager to slaughter people under any circumstances. You'd be just as much of a sheep for a guy like him as a resident of the Sybil Dystopia.

Come on now, what this is is merely speculation over what kind of character Makishima is going to turn out in the end. I will be the first to admit I have high expectations for Makishima, and I desperately hope any inconsistencies don't ruin that.

Really people. Do you think that fundamentally, most of you are much more incredible than somebody like Yuki? You really think that if you were made helpless and had a knife to your throat, you wouldn't be just as pathetic? If you think otherwise, it's the most profound and disgusting kinda arrogance.

She was in an unadvantageous tactical position and it was her body that was in grave danger, her humanity wasn't under threat. Assuming she was born under Sibyl, she had very little chance to claim her humanity. Makishima and Kougami have decided for themselves that they wanted to express their will by being self-sufficient through honing their tactical skills, but this decision concerns only them. Really, her being slaughtered in such a dehumanizing fashion was merely a symbolic act.

[Qilin]

Heh. Labels like "sociopath" or "psychopath" are arbitrary at best, so arguing whether a particular character falls into any of these categories is moot. Even the aforementioned DSM-IV bases most of its diagnoses on a consistent set symptoms that may or may not be related, as opposed to any true biological justification. In many cases, "mentally ill" is just a term for those who deviate from society's norms of conduct; hence, such terms actually just indicate an individual's aptness for a particular cultural context than any real dysfunction.

On the subject of Makishima, I'll admit that I'm quite fascinated by his character. However, I agree with the notion that his actions are indeed abhorrent. There's just something captivating about the way he's nearly incapable of seeing anything but his ideal standard of humanity. Little things like human life, societal order, and absolute power don't matter to him. He can see nothing but that ideal, which is what makes him a true artist, philosopher, and visionary. Whether he's right or wrong isn't the issue here. Adding some sort of humanitarian goal on top of all that only cheapens the purity (or "atrociousness", if some of you guys prefer to use that term ) of his pursuit.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Qilin

Heh. Labels like "sociopath" or "psychopath" are arbitrary at best, so arguing whether a particular character falls into any of these categories is moot. Even the aforementioned DSM-IV bases most of its diagnoses on a consistent set symptoms that may or may not be related, as opposed to any true biological justification. In many cases, "mentally ill" is just a term for those who deviate from society's norms of conduct; hence, such terms actually just indicate an individual's aptness for a particular cultural context than any real dysfunction.

But keep in mind they are not necessarily moot when it comes to fiction and what Urobuchi is trying to say with the character.

Again I am not really sure why people are ignoring the title which is an obvious play on the word psychopath.

Urobuchi is portraying a form of psychopathy in the story. Maybe it is not a medically sound version of it, fine. But that hardly matters in the context of fiction and looking at the definitions you can find of psychopathy I am hard pressed to see that Urobuchi is trying to portray anything else.