Favourite Advance Bloodline? [Manga]

[BadAss Grandma]

im not sure if anyone has said this because im too lazy to read everyone's essay so im just going to say it and if it has been brought up then im sorry. During the fight i believe they said something about neji learning kaiten and the 64 hands on his own. For all we know he could be doing them slightly wrong thus meaning less effectively. And as of now neji isnt that strong you saw the head hyuuga use kaiten and it was much more powerful than neji's. I guess we do have to see the full potential of byakugan before we say anymore about it.

[sarcasteak]

Originally Posted by BadAss Grandma

During the fight i believe they said something about neji learning kaiten and the 64 hands on his own. For all we know he could be doing them slightly wrong thus meaning less effectively. And as of now neji isnt that strong you saw the head hyuuga use kaiten and it was much more powerful than neji's. I guess we do have to see the full potential of byakugan before we say anymore about it.

Well, Hakke 64-Hands is about as perfect as it can be...unless you want him to hit 128 times which is way overkill as 64 seals all chakra hole already. As for Kaiten, the only reason Hiashi could make a Kaiten that power was because he was an adult and had a huge chakra capacity difference compared to Neji. Technically Neji *could* release all his chakra to make a huge Kaiten, but I really don't find it an effective attack unless he had to fight several opponents all at once.

[EbonySeraphim]

raikage: While you do bring up some points, I think they fail to move it to a level needed to disprove the Sharingan's advantages.

First - about the communcal application of asking friendly people in town to copy their jutsu. I think there is much more to be copied than just basics. I agree that some people wouldn't want to show their extremely special jutsu, but in a village like Konoha, I would think everyone would show almost anyone anything as long as it isn't "forbidden" or reckless to use. Also, it is true that anyone has access to jutsu in their village, but how long would it take them to learn certain jutsu? It takes time to learn and perform some of the parts of jutsus, and that is something the Sharingan has revealed in seconds. In the cases where there isn't much basic chakra training needed, the Sharingan user can immediately move on to performing the jutsu to a stronger, and more effecient level instead of just learning how to use it. Of course a lot of the powerful moves do involve some other level of training like Lee's speed, Chidori, and Rasengan but there are plenty of powerful moves that are powerful just because and it can be copied and immediately used.

I also disagree with some of the complications you presented that would make it very hard to copy a powerful jutsu. I don't think that enemies only show off powerful and worthwhile jutsu to end fights. Plenty of other serious attacks are needed to inflict damage on the enemy or else their opponent's defense or evasiveness will withstand whatever else you throw at them. Those serious jutsus are what Sharingan users have available in abundance at their disposal. Basically, where a limited ninja might only have a collection of extremely weak fireball no jutsu that an enemy can simply dodge, someone with a lot more powerful jutsu can use them as those "decoy" attacks, and deliver much stronger damaging attacks. Back to my point - basically, there are attacks to be copied during a whole fight, not just in the end game situation.

The end game situation I think is also missing a huge bit - or outcome possibility. There is the possibility and likelihood that whatever finishing move the enemy has in mind fails, misses, or has ignorable effects - and you have copied it. First, the water prison was an error on Kakashi's part. The others situations were just others that showed someone being hit with a jutsu - big deal, it happens all the time. What matters is that they survived the attack, and if they were a Sharingan user, they now have acquired a jutsu - further making them harder to defeat in later matches. I would consider a big water dragon of the strength that Zabuza had a "finishing" move. Kakashi let him perform it (of course as he was doing it too to defend himself), and acquired the jutsu as well as surviving. Kakashi could have used other jutsus to evade the water dragon after letting Zabuza perform it, and still have acquired a new jutsu. Sharingan users are not helpless while they are copying jutsu. It's a matter of seeing the jutsu performed (with some mode of the Sharingan active) and then it is copied. All the while, the fight is going on and both fighters are moving and doing whatever with clones, kawarimi and whatnot. To assume that because they are in the process of copying a jutsu, that they will lose just because the enemy uses a "finishing" jutsu, is wrong.

Pertaining to counters: I understand what you consider a counter jutsu now. But that doesn't change much more than a technicality of what people mean when they talk about Sharingan users developing "counters." Sharingan users still have the ability to counter the effects of jutsu completely. The point about the Hokage fight would have gone differently if Nidaime was a Sharingan user. He would have read Sarutobi's jutsu coming, and probably have started it earlier or at least simultaneous to him, and he would have taken no damage at all from the fire. Whether or not that fits into the direct sense of "counter jutsu" or not doesn't matter, he has avoided all possible damage. While it is a reaction, Sharingan users have knowledge of what is coming earlier than other ninjas, so their reaction is one that is far more effective because it can start before the enemy actually does their jutsu. The fact that Nidaime was standing in fire for a while showed that he wasn't taking any considerable damage.

Also, some of the examples of countering you gave have problems. The summoning of the Hokages was not countered exactly you said, rather its effects were acted on. To me, it looked like Sarutobi used his chakra to force the last coffin back down to wherever it came from. While he did prevent the overall effect of another Hokage fighting against him, the act of calling forth the coffin was already complete. It's pretty similar to fighting fire with water, pushing it back so it doesn't get to you.

Originally Posted by raikage

A true counter, to me, means that they wouldn't have been caught in the prison in the first place, whether it be by moving out of the way, smacking him in the jaw before the prison goes up, or using something to keep the prison from completion.

All of these scenarios are still reacting to whatever the enemy is doing. It's these very acts that Sharingan users will have a heads-up on during a fight because of their prediction/reading ability. The last one is something that anyone in Naruto has an equal chance of being able to perform. Assuming someone like Itachi couldn't do anything to prevent the completion of an enemy jutsu, its quite clear that evasion would be his choice of dealing with it - and any other Sharingan user that doesn't know how to deal with preventing some jutsu from completion. I also think it's near impossible to do what you are asking for in describing a counter to a jutsu. The performance of most jutsu is in the body of the user. They gather/move chakra, and use it to do something. Preventing a jutsu from happening would require acting on that chakra directly before anything happening, and that would probably only allow a Hyuuga clan member to do such a thing. Otherwise, the only countering of jutsu from normal people would be attacking them first, forcing them to stop performing their jutsu to do something else evasive.

The only countering of jutsu that I fully agree with being the only way to prevent the effects of, is the genjutsu counter.

[raikage]

Pertaining to counters: If the Sharingan DOES provide a way to counter jutsus (and now, by counter I use the less strict definition and also include response jutsus like earth > water > fire)...then...well...I don't see a huge advantage based on the very fact that other ninjas can do the same thing without the Sharingan.

While it is true that not every jutsu will connect, it is still rather foolish (IMHO) to allow your enemy to use their attacks. Not exactly related to the discussion, but going into the fight with a mindset that you will let your enemies pull out their big guns isn't too smart. Why risk seeing the jutsu and being hit when you don't have to expose yourself to that risk?

Plus, (and I am actually being serious here) what is the true benefit of knowing 1000 jutsus? Sure, you may know Reverse Ground-to-air Chain Lightning Sky Attack or Mountain Landslide into Thick Mud Trap, but how often will you use it? Is it worth knowing a jutsu that will only be practical under xxxx exact conditions? Will knowing this many jutsus actually slow you down as you rack your brain trying to come up with the 'perfect' jutsu for this very second, only to realize the second has passed? I would guess that most ninjas work just fine with a small number of jutsu (possibly 5-10), and a slightly larger pool to draw on for certain specalized situations.

Besides, the post (and point) were directed more at people and posts elsewhere in this forum that go something like

Itachi must know tons of kinjutsu because he has the Sharingan and the Sharingan r0x0rs

Yeah...I'm sure people are lining up to show off their secrets to Itachi

Lastly, remember that mastering xxxx number of jutsus can be done by regular ninjas. However improbable or rare, remember that Sandaime has no bloodline and he knew all the jutsus in the Leaf. Jiraiya knows a lot of jutsus, and so does Orochimaru. It can be done without the Sharingan.

Countering jutsus can be done without the Sharingan.

The 64 Hands and probably a good portion of the Gentle Fist cannot be done without the Byakugan.
Seeing 1 km in a particular direction as well as being able to see everything (for all intents and purposes) 50 m in all directions cannot be done without the Byakugan.
Ice Mirrors cannot be done without Haku's bloodline.
Tougher bones/regenerating bone/shooting fingertips cannot be done without Kimimaro's bloodline.

To be sure, the Sharingan does offer TONS of advantages to ninja, as well as some techniques that are impossible to achieve without it (such as Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu, and Mangekyou), but the lower levels, the ones that are touted as the greatest strengths of the Sharingan, are still quite possible for regualr shinobi.

[Lemartes]

Neijis father was killed and handed to the wind country. They were only interested in the Hyugas secret. But at this time the Uchiha still existed. Now why did the wind country try to capture Hinata instead of Sasuke?
if the Uchiha bloodline is really superior, it would make no sense at all.

Furthermore Gai was able to counter a Sharingan user and Utachi retreated instead of fighting him. Taijutsu seems like a natural counter to shinobi specialized in ninjutsu/genjutsu. The Hyuga have the leafs' strongest style of Taijutsu, the gentle fist. Thus I don't think a Hyuga would be less effective than Gai in fighting a Sharingan User.

I like the Byakugan more, since I do martial arts and the Hyuga are focussing on Taijutsu. But nonetheless I think, that Sharingan and Byakugan are around the same level(unless the Byakugan has some special skills we don't know about yet) - the question is not, which bloodline limit is the strongest compared to others, but which one is the most powerful to use in GENERAL. Whats the point of a bloodline limit a that counters bloodline limit b badly, but fails to give any advantages vs other shinobi, while bloodline limit a owns them?

[sarcasteak]

Originally Posted by Lemartes

Neijis father was killed and handed to the wind country. They were only interested in the Hyugas secret. But at this time the Uchiha still existed. Now why did the wind country try to capture Hinata instead of Sasuke?
if the Uchiha bloodline is really superior, it would make no sense at all.

That's because a Hyuga killed their ninja leader; it'd only make sense for them to request the body of the murderer, especially since they wanted the secrets to the Hyuga bloodline to begin with.
As for why they didn't go for an Uchiha to begin with, unlike the Hyuga in which all members inherit the Byakugan to an extent, not all Uchiha members inherit the Sharingan. This is said so by Sasuke himself. So, kidnapping a Hyuga will surely guarantee a body with Byakugan whereas an Uchiha might be pointless.

Originally Posted by Lemartes

Furthermore Gai was able to counter a Sharingan user and Utachi retreated instead of fighting him. Taijutsu seems like a natural counter to shinobi specialized in ninjutsu/genjutsu. The Hyuga have the leafs' strongest style of Taijutsu, the gentle fist. Thus I don't think a Hyuga would be less effective than Gai in fighting a Sharingan User.

Itachi didn't call it a day because of Gai's taijutsu; he decided to avoid further trouble because he knew the Leaf jounins will not pursue them anymore now that Kakashi is in such poor condition as well as because Gai is experienced at fighting against a Sharingan user and has figured out an effective method (at least for him) to avoid Itachi's gaze; the Hyugas can be the best darn fighters in the world, but because they must rely on their Byakugan to fight, there is no way they can avoid Tsukiyomi or any other Sharingan functions when they fight...the large field of vision actually harm them in this case; they can't avoid eye-contact.

[Inuzuka]

the Hyugas can be the best darn fighters in the world, but because they must rely on their Byakugan to fight, there is no way they can avoid Tsukiyomi or any other Sharingan functions when they fight...the large field of vision actually harm them in this case; they can't avoid eye-contact.

Well,this is more of a question then an answer,must they use their(The Hyuuga)Byuukagan,to use the 64 strikes and the divine whirl?Theoratically,they can,because,to put it simply,the Hyuuga fighting styles are a form of taijutsu,which,basically dont need any blood line limits.My friend also suggested that,the Byuukagan is used to access the full potential of the Hyuuga fighting styles,but i think you do need the Byuukagan when you use the 64 strikes,because the main idea of the 64 strikes itself,is to block the opponents Chakra points where you need to know where the chakra points are and thats where the Byuukagan comes in.But in my opinion you can also know where the Chakra points are by heart.(but,you must be very trained.obviously )

[sarcasteak]

Originally Posted by Inuzuka

But in my opinion you can also know where the Chakra points are by heart.(but,you must be very trained.obviously )

Well, that was just a matter of my opinion, so of course you can disagree.
Technically, Hyuga's jyuuken doesn't necessarily need the Byakugan, but in order to effectively insert one's chakra into the target's body through the chakra holes for damage to internal organs, the Byakugan is definitely needed. Sure, a Hyuga who mastered the same fighting style as Kabuto would be just fine, but the standard Hyuga jyuuken needs Byakugan to be effective and efficient. As for Hakke 64 Hands, I also think one can perform it just by memorization and practice along; although opponents' body-size can vary a lot, through experience and familarity with the human anatomy, it probably could be done...but probably not with the same exact precision that the Byakugan provides, so not all chakra holes will be sealed.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by raikage

Hunter, I still remain somewhat unconvinced that Kakashi really copied any jutsus during the Zabuza fight. If you're the "man of 1000 jutsus" then boasting Water Dragon and Water Clone among that 1000 before meeting a Mist nin, to me, isn't outside the realm of possibility at all. What would indicate to me that Kakashi copied the jutsus is if we see inside his head that "Hey, what IS this!?!" or otherwise a clear indication that he had never seent hem before and THEN excecutes them to perfection.

No really re-read the fight with Zabuza, it's said that Kakashi copied the Water clone of Zabuza on the spot at the beginnin of the fight, same thing with the first water jutsu attack at the opposite of the second where it's stated that Kakashi forced Zabuza to execute predetermined hand seals wanted by Kakashi in order to make believe the 'I can see the future' trick.

I'm not seeing how you talk about this thread being about the ultimate potential of a bloodline, and then mention how Neji is an exception among the Hyuuga. If this is about what a bloodline IS capable of, then I reinstate the possibility that a Hyuuga can learn inner-palm style AND be able to hit a mark with a exploding-tag kunai 250 meters away (which isn't even close to the 1000 m that Hinata is able to see to). Better at close-range, better at long-range. Offers no advantage to learning new stuff or ninjutsu, but that's okay.

You miss my point, the fact that the Byakugan can be usefull at long and close range is true and is a good point, but it's impossible to be a specialist into these both specialities at the opposite of the Sharingan who allows its user to be specialist in as much speciality as he wants.

Originally Posted by raikage

Lastly, remember that mastering xxxx number of jutsus can be done by regular ninjas. However improbable or rare, remember that Sandaime has no bloodline and he knew all the jutsus in the Leaf. Jiraiya knows a lot of jutsus, and so does Orochimaru. It can be done without the Sharingan.

Only by freakin genius, and that's why the Sharingan is so strong, to have a bloodline doesn't mean that you will be better than a true genius ninja, as your said, none of the Hokage had a bloodline, neither the Sannin.
But the Bloodline of the Uchiha gives you capacities that only the absolute best geniuses can normally have.

Countering jutsus can be done without the Sharingan.

But once again, you can only do it blindly, as Kakashi did against Itachi, he only knew that a jutsu will come and used a random protecting jutsu that he could just hoping that it would be useful against the unknown attack.
In the other hand a Sharingan user can choose the right counter jutsu wisely.
And you can say that Kakashi is a Sharingan user, but Itachi is just too much better

Seeing 1 km in a particular direction as well as being able to see everything (for all intents and purposes) 50 m in all directions cannot be done without the Byakugan.
Ice Mirrors cannot be done without Haku's bloodline.
Tougher bones/regenerating bone/shooting fingertips cannot be done without Kimimaro's bloodline.

Why?
It can't be done without hand seals that's right, but how could you say that there aren't regular jutsus which have the same effect?

The possibilities of the effect of jutsu are virtually infinite.

Originally Posted by Lemartes

Neijis father was killed and handed to the wind country. They were only interested in the Hyugas secret. But at this time the Uchiha still existed. Now why did the wind country try to capture Hinata instead of Sasuke?
if the Uchiha bloodline is really superior, it would make no sense at all.

Like Sarcasteak said, not all the Uchiha had the Sharingan, the young children can't have it and even for those who had the eyes, they aren't visible as in the Hyuga's case.

Furthermore Gai was able to counter a Sharingan user and Utachi retreated instead of fighting him. Taijutsu seems like a natural counter to shinobi specialized in ninjutsu/genjutsu. The Hyuga have the leafs' strongest style of Taijutsu, the gentle fist. Thus I don't think a Hyuga would be less effective than Gai in fighting a Sharingan User.

Once again as Sarcasteak said, Itachi avoided the reinforcements, not Gai in particular and to practice the strongest fighting Taijutsu style doesn't mean that you're the strongest Taijutsu user.

[...]which bloodline limit is the strongest compared to others, but which one is the most powerful to use in GENERAL. Whats the point of a bloodline limit a that counters bloodline limit b badly, but fails to give any advantages vs other shinobi, while bloodline limit a owns them?

I can't agree more, that's why the Sharingan is the better bloodline so far ^^

[EbonySeraphim]

To drive one of Hunter's points home:

Originally Posted by Hunter

Only by freakin genius, and that's why the Sharingan is so strong, to have a bloodline doesn't mean that you will be better than a true genius ninja, as your said, none of the Hokage had a bloodline, neither the Sannin.
But the Bloodline of the Uchiha gives you capacities that only the absolute best geniuses can normally have.

On top of the Sharingan giving this "genius ability" naturally without any effort, they additionally can be geniuses among geniuses easier. Such a case would probably be the path of someone like Itachi and Neji. Both of these characters are distinguished within their own group of bloodline limit users and are noted to be extremely strong ninjas too. I would even consider Sasuke only a general genius and average among Sharingan users assuming more of them existed. If he[Sasuke] were truly a Sharingan/Uchiha genius then he would be able to probably use some weaker form of Tsukiyomi Sharingan at least. And he would have copied most jutsu from every ninja he has seen in action like Kakashi, Zabuza, Haku, etc.

[raikage]

Originally Posted by Hunter

No really re-read the fight with Zabuza, it's said that Kakashi copied the Water clone of Zabuza on the spot at the beginnin of the fight, same thing with the first water jutsu attack at the opposite of the second where it's stated that Kakashi forced Zabuza to execute predetermined hand seals wanted by Kakashi in order to make believe the 'I can see the future' trick.

Re-reading:
Okay.
Zabuza expresses surprise that Kakashi copied his jutsu even though Kakashi should not have been able to see him in the mist. Zabuza assumes that Kakashi copied the Water Clone from him. While there is the possibility that Kakashi could see through the mist the first time for whatever reason (maybe not as thick? Zabuza not using as much chakra in the mist the fist time around?) it really does explain things just as well if Kakashi knew the jutsu before entering the battle. Plus, Kakashi is the man of 1000+ jutsu. How would Zabuza know for a fact that Kakashi did NOT know Water Clone before enountering him? P.S. Any implications that Zabuza had a listing of all Kakashi's known jutsu is fairly ridiculous.

Who was the one that said Kakashi copied the Water Dragon? I believe it was Sasuke, who at that point
• does NOT have Sharingan
• also does NOT have that "Jutsus copied by Kakashi" listing, so...I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this...*can't communicate well right now*

Originally Posted by Hunter

You miss my point, the fact that the Byakugan can be usefull at long and close range is true and is a good point, but it's impossible to be a specialist into these both specialities at the opposite of the Sharingan who allows its user to be specialist in as much speciality as he wants.

And I didn't mean that the Hyuuga in this case would be a specialist of both. If that's the impression you got, then I must have misworded it. Imagine a medevial foot soldier, who, if needed, can pick up a bow-and-arrow and still hit someone 10 yards away. A good anime-related example would be I think his name was Shinimori Aoshi from Rurouni Kenshin (in their first encounter). He was primarily a hand-to-hand combatant, but learned JUST enough swordsmanship that he could cope in that field. Doesn't mean that he's a Iaido expert or that he could defeat Kenshin in swords-only combat, but he could parry and he would be able to fight in that enviornment - not being able to beat Kenshin, perhaps, but be able to hang in combat with one of the lesser samurai.

Originally Posted by Hunter

Only by freakin genius, and that's why the Sharingan is so strong, to have a bloodline doesn't mean that you will be better than a true genius ninja, as your said, none of the Hokage had a bloodline, neither the Sannin.
But the Bloodline of the Uchiha gives you capacities that only the absolute best geniuses can normally have.

You miss my point in that it can be done by someone without the Sharingan. However rare it might be, someone can achieve this without the use of the bloodline. Were one person in the entire world actually to close tenketsus without the Byakugan, I would be the first to say that "hey, it's not quite as special anymore." Doesn't take away from the effectiveness of the jutsu (or in this case ability) at all, just that it takes away something...intangible. A bloodline is supposed to enable you to do something that is otherwise impossible. When it becomes possible, no matter how rare (and if we count the Sandaime and 2-3 of the Sannin, which is more than one person, and who knows about the other Akatsuki) then it takes away a bit of that special-ness.

Originally Posted by Hunter

Why?
It can't be done without hand seals that's right, but how could you say that there aren't regular jutsus which have the same effect?

I can't say there aren't any, but neither can you say they exist. It's an uncharacteristically weak argument for you to say that "there might be a jutsu that lets you be Haku".

Originally Posted by Hunter

I can't agree more, that's why the Sharingan is the better bloodline so far ^^

Wha...? Are we still talking about the Byakugan here? Are you honestly saying that the Byakugan has NO advantages besides maybe being able to fight against an Uchiha?

[Lemartes]

no, this comment was general and not related to the sharingan or byakugan.

BTW:
What can a copy ninja do, if his opponent is a specialist in Taijutsu and has far superior strength/speed in this category? He can still copy the movements, but this is where his abilities end. The speed can't be copied and that's why I think, that a physically strong Taijutsu expert with the abilities of the Byakugan can be considered as a superior opponent against either Ninjutsu and Genjutsu.
However this is just an assupmtion without taking personal abilities of different characters into view.

But imo it shows, that neither the Sharingan nor the Byakugan are superior to each other. Both have their advantages and disadvantages and its totally up to the "user" whether it's more or less effective.

An example from the real world:
Let's say you're naturally gifted with strength(which isn't the usual case), but you never trained martial arts or something else.
Now you meet a guy who is natuarlly weak, but he trained his ass off to gain strength and learned martial arts for many years.
At his point all your natural advantages won't work. The enemy is superior, even though he isn't naturally giftet like you.

Potential is one thing, effort and the result of it another.

[Inuzuka]

Originally Posted by Lemartes

no, this comment was general and not related to the sharingan or byakugan.

An example from the real world:
Let's say you're naturally gifted with strength(which isn't the usual case), but you never trained martial arts or something else.
Now you meet a guy who is natuarlly weak, but he trained his ass off to gain strength and learned martial arts for many years.
At his point all your natural advantages won't work. The enemy is superior, even though he isn't naturally giftet like you.

Potential is one thing, effort and the result of it another.

Haha.This reminds me of Lee's hard working genius theorie^^
(But in the end we all know Lee IS a genius.haha)

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by raikage

Re-reading:
Okay.
Zabuza expresses surprise that Kakashi copied his jutsu even though Kakashi should not have been able to see him in the mist. Zabuza assumes that Kakashi copied the Water Clone from him. While there is the possibility that Kakashi could see through the mist the first time for whatever reason (maybe not as thick? Zabuza not using as much chakra in the mist the fist time around?) it really does explain things just as well if Kakashi knew the jutsu before entering the battle. Plus, Kakashi is the man of 1000+ jutsu. How would Zabuza know for a fact that Kakashi did NOT know Water Clone before enountering him? P.S. Any implications that Zabuza had a listing of all Kakashi's known jutsu is fairly ridiculous.

Who was the one that said Kakashi copied the Water Dragon? I believe it was Sasuke, who at that point
• does NOT have Sharingan
• also does NOT have that "Jutsus copied by Kakashi" listing, so...I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this...*can't communicate well right now*

Well sorry but this is no points, I mean I can find a reason to explain why Oro is in fact a good guy trying to protect Konoha, who launched the war against the Leaf just to divert the attention of the uber powerful bad guy on others countries, well no wait, actually, the 3rd was a bad guy under cover and that's why Oro was forced to attack Konoha to take him down! (The 3rd remained a good actor 'til the end, isn't it?)
...

What I meant is : to say that you think that a character of this story was mistaken isn't an argument.
If you go on this way, you can stop to discuss about everything about Naruto because maybe Sasura and Kakashi and every single characters of this series wanted to lie, there's no chakra into their bodies, just a radioactive lollipop allowing them to use magic or whatever...
Zabuza explained how Kakashi copied him and since Kakashi didn't say haha you're wrong you loser, it's true.

Kishimoto alway uses character to explain what happens in the story, if Kishimoto doesn't induce that a character's wrong with another character in the manga then it's true.

Seriously it's just a matter of logic, when a character just presented as the copy dude starts to use the jutsu that his opponent just performed, then guess what, he copied them.

And I didn't mean that the Hyuuga in this case would be a specialist of both. If that's the impression you got, then I must have misworded it. Imagine a medevial foot soldier, who, if needed, can pick up a bow-and-arrow and still hit someone 10 yards away. A good anime-related example would be I think his name was Shinimori Aoshi from Rurouni Kenshin (in their first encounter). He was primarily a hand-to-hand combatant, but learned JUST enough swordsmanship that he could cope in that field. Doesn't mean that he's a Iaido expert or that he could defeat Kenshin in swords-only combat, but he could parry and he would be able to fight in that enviornment - not being able to beat Kenshin, perhaps, but be able to hang in combat with one of the lesser samurai.

Your example isn't very accurate because Aoshi's a genious, he's already at the best in hand-to-hand fight and then could become a good swordsman as well -and I wouldn't have say that he learned 'just' enough swordsmanship, he was crazy good at this too ^^
But anyway that doesn't change anything to my point, the Sharingan can make its user a specialist in almost every kind of fight, and it's something that the others bloodline can't do.

You miss my point in that it can be done by someone without the Sharingan. However rare it might be, someone can achieve this without the use of the bloodline. Were one person in the entire world actually to close tenketsus without the Byakugan, I would be the first to say that "hey, it's not quite as special anymore." Doesn't take away from the effectiveness of the jutsu (or in this case ability) at all, just that it takes away something...intangible. A bloodline is supposed to enable you to do something that is otherwise impossible. When it becomes possible, no matter how rare (and if we count the Sandaime and 2-3 of the Sannin, which is more than one person, and who knows about the other Akatsuki) then it takes away a bit of that special-ness.

Really I think it's very stupid.
That's kinda like to say : that sucks, I'm invincible but I'm not that special 'cause Superman already is.

Firstly, I don't agree with your point that a bloodline is supposed to enable you to do something otherwise impossible, they're supposed to enable you to do something in a way otherwise impossible.
Haku's jutsu were water-like, nothing trully impossible by itself, but he could do them with only one hand and had probably a natural control over it.
It's possible to know countless jutsu? Yeah, uber geniuses can do that after dozen and dozen years.
A Sharingan user can naturally learn them on the spot.
Can an excellent ninja predict his opponent's moves from his fighting experience? Yeah, that's possible, and once again, that's only natural for a Sharingan user.

I can't say there aren't any, but neither can you say they exist. It's an uncharacteristically weak argument for you to say that "there might be a jutsu that lets you be Haku".

You miss my point, I don't say that maybe a jutsu like that exists, I say that a jutsu like that can be created, that's Oro's moto, with enough time (ie being immortal) you can create or learn every possible jutsu.
The Sharingan is a plus because it can be done insanely faster.

Wha...? Are we still talking about the Byakugan here? Are you honestly saying that the Byakugan has NO advantages besides maybe being able to fight against an Uchiha?

Uh? I spoke about every single bloodline, and I didn't say that the Byakugan has no advantage (I mean, did I even mentioned the Byakugan? ).

I said that the Sharingan is the more diversified bloodline, and thus the one who can deal with the most number of different ninja.
Like I said, to fight an Uchiha equally, you need to be faster (much faster) and better in Taijutsu than him, having a bloodline is heavily advised and a Ninjutsu or Genjutsu specialist is almost doomed by definition.
Oh and you must have an ability/capacity which allows you to figh while not to look into his eyes

Differently speaking, about... 90~99% of the ninjas?


Lemartes, being fast and strong isn't a Byakugan abilities
However what a copy ninja can do?
That only depends of what he copied.

[Lemartes]

Lemartes, being fast and strong isn't a Byakugan abilities
However what a copy ninja can do?
That only depends of what he copied.

right, but since the Hyuga fight with the leafs strongest Taijutsu style, it's not very unlikely that they're (very) good at Taijutsu.

That's why I think, that the Byakugan can compete with the Sharingan.


As far as I know the series, Taijutsu is the most powerful art of a ninja in general. But it seems like Taijutsu lacks power against several bloodline limits.

[raikage]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Well sorry but this is no points, I mean I can find a reason to explain why Oro is in fact a good guy trying to protect Konoha, who launched the war against the Leaf just to divert the attention of the uber powerful bad guy on others countries, well no wait, actually, the 3rd was a bad guy under cover and that's why Oro was forced to attack Konoha to take him down! (The 3rd remained a good actor 'til the end, isn't it?)
...

What I meant is : to say that you think that a character of this story was mistaken isn't an argument.
If you go on this way, you can stop to discuss about everything about Naruto because maybe Sasura and Kakashi and every single characters of this series wanted to lie, there's no chakra into their bodies, just a radioactive lollipop allowing them to use magic or whatever...
Zabuza explained how Kakashi copied him and since Kakashi didn't say haha you're wrong you loser, it's true.

Kishimoto alway uses character to explain what happens in the story, if Kishimoto doesn't induce that a character's wrong with another character in the manga then it's true.

Seriously it's just a matter of logic, when a character just presented as the copy dude starts to use the jutsu that his opponent just performed, then guess what, he copied them.

Your example isn't very accurate because Aoshi's a genious, he's already at the best in hand-to-hand fight and then could become a good swordsman as well -and I wouldn't have say that he learned 'just' enough swordsmanship, he was crazy good at this too ^^
But anyway that doesn't change anything to my point, the Sharingan can make its user a specialist in almost every kind of fight, and it's something that the others bloodline can't do.

To say that a character is mistaken isn't an argument....hm...I make my arguments primarily based on what has been shown, rather than what has been said. Look to my "Sasuke copying Lee" stuff for proof of that. As much as I want to agree with you (and I really do) I don't discount things that are possible and sensible and logical but disproved based on someone's word...and that someone being someone who isn't the expert...but I do really want to agree with you.

Haven't seen Kenshin in a while - actually, watched the first few eps and then read the manga - and as far as I remember, in their first fight, Aoshi primarily used the blade to parry while using his karate to attack. He wasn't a sword specalist per se, but he was good enough. It was in the later stages that he learned two-blade fighting and became a swordsman. Could be wrong, though.

You may be knowledgeable in every type of jutsu, but it doesn't mean that you'll be a specialist in that style. Remember my Rolodex theory - having to sift through ten thousand jutsus in your mind might throw you off against a true specialist. Remember, a genjutsu specialist can throw out jutsus in rapid succession - one, two, three, four, five - in a short amount of time. Someone who knows the jutsus, but is still primarily a ninjutsu tactician (which all 3 Sharingan users seem to be) may not be able to keep up with the speed. It has been said that a Sharingan user can find a way to defeat a jutsu - but I still haven't seen any convincing proof of this - specifically how/why a Sharingan user is so much better than a non-Sharingan.

Originally Posted by Hunter

Really I think it's very stupid.
That's kinda like to say : that sucks, I'm invincible but I'm not that special 'cause Superman already is.

Firstly, I don't agree with your point that a bloodline is supposed to enable you to do something otherwise impossible, they're supposed to enable you to do something in a way otherwise impossible.
Haku's jutsu were water-like, nothing trully impossible by itself, but he could do them with only one hand and had probably a natural control over it.
It's possible to know countless jutsu? Yeah, uber geniuses can do that after dozen and dozen years.
A Sharingan user can naturally learn them on the spot.
Can an excellent ninja predict his opponent's moves from his fighting experience? Yeah, that's possible, and once again, that's only natural for a Sharingan user.

Only natural for a Sharingan user...? Okay...I can't say that I've seen anything to disprove that.
About the 'specialness' - imagine that you could lift 500 pounds (227 kilos). Pretty damn strong, yeah?
That guy over there can do it, too. And him. And even her, with the veins bulging out of the arms and all.
It takes away nothing from the fact that you're still a pretty f*cking strong guy. Regardless of how many other people can lift 500 pounds, you can do it too and no one can take that away from you.
However, it's not unique. It's not quite as special if others are capable of doing the exact same thing.

Originally Posted by Hunter

]You miss my point, I don't say that maybe a jutsu like that exists, I say that a jutsu like that can be created, that's Oro's moto, with enough time (ie being immortal) you can create or learn every possible jutsu.
The Sharingan is a plus because it can be done insanely faster.

Again, if someone can replicate the advantages a bloodline gives, its usefulness diminishes dramatically. If someone were to create a mimic-Hyuuga-eyes no jutsu, the advantage Hyuuga has would be reduced to almost nothing - their talents are no longer proprietary and unique to them. TO be sure, the Byakugan would still be every bit as effective, but if anyone who wanted to could be a honorary Hyuuga - then...what's the benefit?

And...using Sharingan to create new jutsu? I would imagine that a Sharingan user relies on other people's tactics; that as they copy other people's jutsus they mate it to the situation in which they have copied it. I suppose it might be a bit like real-life tactics - if you're defending against an army, being in a fortress on a hill, then use xxxxx plan. It takes creativity to modify and apply those strategies to an island defense or a flat-land or even a defense in which you do not have a fortress - but if you've just read the plans, you might not make those kinds of connections to use Water Dragon in a situation other than immediately next to a lake, or maybe using a low-powered version of Chidori in typical hand-to-hand combat. It's not a given that Kakashi will realize that he can use Earth Decapitation to avoid a Water Dragon while he is standing on land.

Originally Posted by Hunter

I said that the Sharingan is the more diversified bloodline, and thus the one who can deal with the most number of different ninja.
Like I said, to fight an Uchiha equally, you need to be faster (much faster) and better in Taijutsu than him, having a bloodline is heavily advised and a Ninjutsu or Genjutsu specialist is almost doomed by definition.

People who fight someone with Yoroi's powers can say much the same thing - you have to be better than him in taijutsu and be faster - avoid close combat at all costs. Can't say too much about Haku's bloodline, since he's a Genin without anyone to train him in his family secrets - but remember that there is water in the human brain. The body is 70% water. How would ANYONE stand a chance against something like that?

Originally Posted by Hunter

Oh and you must have an ability/capacity which allows you to figh while not to look into his eyes

Yeah, that's pretty much impossible for most ninja. No getting around that one.

[EbonySeraphim]

Generic reply to raikage:

Maybe this analogy might help shed some light: While everyone can compete in multiple Olympic sports competitively, Sharingan users have an ability that would allow them to compete in all of them with a lot less effort than all of them. Essentially that is to say if both a Sharingan user and some other John Smith made it a goal to compete in 10 events, a Sharingan user could be competitive in all of them in a year as opposed to, 20 years that it would take John Smith. What you are saying is that in 20 years, John Smith will have attained what the Sharingan user had 20 years ago (or both of them at the same time assuming John Smith started 19 years earlier). While it is true that the Sharingan user of 1 year training will have the same ability as John Smith who trained for 20, if you gave the Sharingan user 19 more years, they would take those abilities to another level that would require even more time for John Smith to catch up. The same thing applies for one event too. Given a shorter amount of a time, a Sharingan user will be at a level of competition similar to someone who has put in much more time.

It's similar to the genius vs hard-working situation. It took Lee years to obtain his speed that Sasuke gained in only 1 month. Granted Sasuke may not be quite as fast or have as high stamina with the speed, but given only another year of training Sasuke most definitely would have equal, or higher speeds than Lee with stamina. If Lee worked insanely hard and was given 5 more years of time, he could again match Sasuke's speed if it increased. But at the rates each of them would go at getting better, Sasuke would always stay faster assuming he put in the same work effort Lee does.

We see that Itachi (still very young compared to Leaf's Jounin) has attained a level higher than them in a much smaller portion of his life. This character is already being compared to Hokage (even if he isn't on thier level yet), and he hasn't been known to be trained by someone extremely strong(like a Hokage or Jounin); and he hasn't been shown to be a hard-working type that spends 15 hours a day training; but he still is at such a level where the only people that can compare to him are people who are known to have those advantages.

To generalize a bit more - the Sharingan is kind of like a "genius ability." In general, it gives the user the ability to be a genius level of skill with normal/moderate effort and time. If the user was also a hardworker and/or a genius within this group of people that have the "genius ability," they would be at an extra level higher than normal people that dont have the ability. While it may not be impossible for them to attain whatever level of skill the Sharingan user has, it would require exponentially higher effort and time on their part to catch up, and we are looking at being that age and die. I would move to say that things Sharingan users can attain are impossible for normal people to obtain.

In one statement, I guess my argument is: Sharingan grants the users an extra level of "genius" above anyone else.

[Lemartes]

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

Generic reply to raikage:

Maybe this analogy might help shed some light: While everyone can compete in multiple Olympic sports competitively, Sharingan users have an ability that would allow them to compete in all of them with a lot less effort than all of them. Essentially that is to say if both a Sharingan user and some other John Smith made it a goal to compete in 10 events, a Sharingan user could be competitive in all of them in a year as opposed to, 20 years that it would take John Smith. What you are saying is that in 20 years, John Smith will have attained what the Sharingan user had 20 years ago (or both of them at the same time assuming John Smith started 19 years earlier). While it is true that the Sharingan user of 1 year training will have the same ability as John Smith who trained for 20, if you gave the Sharingan user 19 more years, they would take those abilities to another level that would require even more time for John Smith to catch up. The same thing applies for one event too. Given a shorter amount of a time, a Sharingan user will be at a level of competition similar to someone who has put in much more time.

It's similar to the genius vs hard-working situation. It took Lee years to obtain his speed that Sasuke gained in only 1 month. Granted Sasuke may not be quite as fast or have as high stamina with the speed, but given only another year of training Sasuke most definitely would have equal, or higher speeds than Lee with stamina. If Lee worked insanely hard and was given 5 more years of time, he could again match Sasuke's speed if it increased. But at the rates each of them would go at getting better, Sasuke would always stay faster assuming he put in the same work effort Lee does.

We see that Itachi (still very young compared to Leaf's Jounin) has attained a level higher than them in a much smaller portion of his life. This character is already being compared to Hokage (even if he isn't on thier level yet), and he hasn't been known to be trained by someone extremely strong(like a Hokage or Jounin); and he hasn't been shown to be a hard-working type that spends 15 hours a day training; but he still is at such a level where the only people that can compare to him are people who are known to have those advantages.

To generalize a bit more - the Sharingan is kind of like a "genius ability." In general, it gives the user the ability to be a genius level of skill with normal/moderate effort and time. If the user was also a hardworker and/or a genius within this group of people that have the "genius ability," they would be at an extra level higher than normal people that dont have the ability. While it may not be impossible for them to attain whatever level of skill the Sharingan user has, it would require exponentially higher effort and time on their part to catch up, and we are looking at being that age and die. I would move to say that things Sharingan users can attain are impossible for normal people to obtain.

In one statement, I guess my argument is: Sharingan grants the users an extra level of "genius" above anyone else.

Sorry, but I think that's wrong. You can't apply the Sharingan on physical effort and work. Sasuke didn't reach the speed of lee out of nothing - he already had a good base to train on. Also he didn't gain the same speed Lee has and don't even mention the strength of Lee. Furthermore Sasuke can't open the Gates like Lee is able to.
Physically wise there is nobody like a genius. One is more talented like another, but that's all. There are very few people who can excell in more than one category. To be honest, I don't believe that nowaday, when sports come close the border line of the human body, there are any sportsmen who can do such a thing(maybe one guy running 100 and 200 m sprints in excellent times, but not in different categories).
Sasuke can't beat Lee in Taijutsu and he won't ever be able to, since he has to work on the fields: Taijutsu, Ninjutsu, Genjutsu. Lee on the other hand has only to work his Taijutsu and speed/strength/stamina. Thus he will excell in this field for sure.
Compare Kakashi/Gai with Sasuke/Lee. Gai isn't weaker than Kakashi, while only using Taijutsu. Kakashi can't compete with him in Taijutsu, even though he is called a "genius".

IMO this whole "genius" thing is crap. It's like martial arts in real life.
You can be a genius, who learns new techniques extremely fast. But if you lack the mindset on the "street" to hurt your opponent, all the martial arts and strength training is useless. A guy weaker than you can beat you up in this case.
Also in martial arts you have a core of techniques, that you train most of the time. Due to the high amount of repetitions the techniques will become flawless, fast and powerful. I'd rather have 10 perfect and strong techniques than 1000 not so strong and flawful techniques.
One who practices a thousand arts will never become a master of one art.
And a master of one art IS stronger than someone who trains many arts, but doesn't excell in one.

That's also why I think, that the Sharingan is overrated and the whole copy thing doesn't make someone a better fighter.
It's the mindset and specialisation.
NInjutsu isn't everything, even in the Naruto world.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by raikage

To say that a character is mistaken isn't an argument....hm...I make my arguments primarily based on what has been shown, rather than what has been said. Look to my "Sasuke copying Lee" stuff for proof of that. As much as I want to agree with you (and I really do) I don't discount things that are possible and sensible and logical but disproved based on someone's word...and that someone being someone who isn't the expert...but I do really want to agree with you.

Okey let's forget for the moment the fact that characters stated this or that : What did the manga show which makes you believe that Kakashi didn't copy Zabuza (and Kisame later) jutsu?

Haven't seen Kenshin in a while - actually, watched the first few eps and then read the manga - and as far as I remember, in their first fight, Aoshi primarily used the blade to parry while using his karate to attack. He wasn't a sword specalist per se, but he was good enough. It was in the later stages that he learned two-blade fighting and became a swordsman. Could be wrong, though.

I didn't read the Kenshin since a long time either but that pretty much what I remember too, except that his best move at the beginning was weird move + strike with his sword and not just parry with it.
And well, I think that to be able to parry Kenshin's sword you must be pretty good yourself that's all

You may be knowledgeable in every type of jutsu, but it doesn't mean that you'll be a specialist in that style. Remember my Rolodex theory - having to sift through ten thousand jutsus in your mind might throw you off against a true specialist. Remember, a genjutsu specialist can throw out jutsus in rapid succession - one, two, three, four, five - in a short amount of time. Someone who knows the jutsus, but is still primarily a ninjutsu tactician (which all 3 Sharingan users seem to be) may not be able to keep up with the speed. It has been said that a Sharingan user can find a way to defeat a jutsu - but I still haven't seen any convincing proof of this - specifically how/why a Sharingan user is so much better than a non-Sharingan.

Well it's difficult to say because Itachi is the only full-Sharingan master user that we know and it's difficult to tell where the bloodline stops and where it's just that Itachi's insanely good.

Because a genjutsu specialist is pretty much useless against an user as Itachi as far as we know, and he's for the moment the guy who used 4 jutsus (or even 5 I hesitate) in less than about 20 seconds.

And once again I never see any ninja hesitates when it matters to choose a jutsu

Only natural for a Sharingan user...? Okay...I can't say that I've seen anything to disprove that.
About the 'specialness' - imagine that you could lift 500 pounds (227 kilos). Pretty damn strong, yeah?
That guy over there can do it, too. And him. And even her, with the veins bulging out of the arms and all.
It takes away nothing from the fact that you're still a pretty f*cking strong guy. Regardless of how many other people can lift 500 pounds, you can do it too and no one can take that away from you.
However, it's not unique. It's not quite as special if others are capable of doing the exact same thing.

Indeed, however if the guy who could lift 500 pounds is a 13 years child who was never trained to lift something, then it is.

Again, if someone can replicate the advantages a bloodline gives, its usefulness diminishes dramatically. If someone were to create a mimic-Hyuuga-eyes no jutsu, the advantage Hyuuga has would be reduced to almost nothing - their talents are no longer proprietary and unique to them. TO be sure, the Byakugan would still be every bit as effective, but if anyone who wanted to could be a honorary Hyuuga - then...what's the benefit?

Firstly, what's the benefit for who?
Then again it's not like I thought that any mere genious could create a jutsu replicating the advantages of the Byakugan of Kimi's, etc.
However, give time to Oro and I really think that it's just a matter of time and guinea pigs.

And...using Sharingan to create new jutsu? I would imagine that a Sharingan user relies on other people's tactics; that as they copy other people's jutsus they mate it to the situation in which they have copied it.

No, no I meant that the Sharingan was a plus to take the jutsu already existing, even if I think that the Sharingan can be usefull in certain ways to create new jutsu, it's all about the geniusity and imagination of the user here.

People who fight someone with Yoroi's powers can say much the same thing - you have to be better than him in taijutsu and be faster - avoid close combat at all costs. Can't say too much about Haku's bloodline, since he's a Genin without anyone to train him in his family secrets - but remember that there is water in the human brain. The body is 70% water. How would ANYONE stand a chance against something like that?

Indeed and Yoroi's ability would have been dangerous on a good user, but not as dangerous as a good Sharingan.
For Haku's bloodline, that's very true, it must exist innumerable variations of the water jutsu, but water jutsu isn't unique to Haku's bloodline ^^

[raikage]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Okey let's forget for the moment the fact that characters stated this or that : What did the manga show which makes you believe that Kakashi didn't copy Zabuza (and Kisame later) jutsu?

Nothing explicitly stated, but a conclusion drawn from a couple of things:
• Kakashi is the man who has copied over 1000 jutsus. It's almost guaranteed that at least some of the jutsus have been copied from people outside the Leaf.
• Kakashi has been on many missions (over 200 A-rank and over 400 B-rank, according to sarcasteak's guide. It is once again concieveable that he has enountered Mist nins in his travels (as well as Earth nins, Lightning nins, etc. etc.
• I read no indication that the Water Dragon, Water Clone, or Water Explosion were created by Zabuza or otherwise unique to him.

So,
• Kakashi has a track record of over 1000 missions, some of which could involve enounters (as either allies or enemies) with Mist nins.
• Over the course of time, Kakashi has copied over 1000 jutsus.
• Kakashi already has a track record of using non-Fire jutsus (as shown with his Earth Decapitaion on Sasuke)
• The jutsus believed to have been copied on-the-spot have not been uniquely identified as unique to Zabuza or even rare among Mist nins.
• From the above point, we can conclude that other Mist nins know the jutsus in question.
• Combining the above point with the first and second, we can see that it is logically quite possible for Kakashi to have copied the jutsu from someone else.

Originally Posted by Hunter

I didn't read the Kenshin since a long time either but that pretty much what I remember too, except that his best move at the beginning was weird move + strike with his sword and not just parry with it.
And well, I think that to be able to parry Kenshin's sword you must be pretty good yourself that's all

True, but Aoshi (at that time) was not considered a swordsman, and I doubt he would have lasted very long against Kenshin in a straight swords vs. swords fight.

And this was my point with the Byakugan; that you can learn just enough to be able to defend yourself long-distance or even medium-distance without being a full dedicated warrior.

Originally Posted by Hunter

And once again I never see any ninja hesitates when it matters to choose a jutsu

That is quite true, but here's something else to consider:
In the Shino vs Kankurou fight, Shino pointed out that Kankurou is weak in close-range combat. Kankurou acknowledged that, and that's why his general strategy is to hide and fight from a distance.

Now, let's imagine that Kankurou is also skilled in close-quarters combat.
I would guess that his first reaction would still be to jump away and resume using his puppet. Changing strategies in the middle of combat is not something normally seen.

If Kakashi were forced into CQ combat, he wouldn't be the most comfortable. Yes, he is quite skilled at taijutsu, but he is primarily a ninjutsu user, and his battle plan will often to be to get in a position where he can use his jutsu. Compare this with someone like Gai, whose main plan is to get in-your-face with punches and kicks. Sure, someone might be good at taijutsu - but if their main strength (and even if you're an all-specialist, you still have a primary strength) is jutsu-usage, then they will try to get into a jutsu-advantageous situation. Admittedly, this post might not make the most sense, but my main point here (feeding off of Lemartes) is that a 'specialist' doesn't have the mental capacity to be a specialist in everything all or even some of the time, and so may not be as good as a true specialist because of that inability to switch mental gears.

Originally Posted by Hunter

Indeed and Yoroi's ability would have been dangerous on a good user, but not as dangerous as a good Sharingan.
For Haku's bloodline, that's very true, it must exist innumerable variations of the water jutsu, but water jutsu isn't unique to Haku's bloodline ^^

Yoroi: Very true.
Haku: Hard to say since we don't know exactly what Haku's bloodline is capable of or how it's different from regular water jutsu. If he is capable of transforming water into ice (like he did with the Demonic Ice Mirrors), then he could instantly freeze blood. But, since we don't know, we don't know what he could have done.