Macross Frontier (Macross 25) general discussion [No Spoilers]

[KiNA]

D:

Stop killing catgirls!

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO

quite. also everyone seemed to forget in the first opening scenes of MACROSS PLUS where ISAMU was fighting renegade Zentradi ducks into a trench then proceed to bayonet a Zentradi trooper as he pass over him.

Conceptually, I rather like the bayonet; it makes sense to have a backup weapon for emergencies, but it's still obvious that it's to be used strictly as a backup.

Originally Posted by Aquifina

I for one found it somewhat odd, if cool, that so many of the Macross fighters looked like F-14s. With the F-22 in service and the F-35 in the pipe, it gives the show an almost retro feel.

The Macross universe diverges from our own sometime in the '90s (even before ASS-1 came into play). One of these changes led to F-14 variants being still used for front-line combat until at least 2008. It would appear that the UN forces decided to pool their aircraft development into variable fighters as their 5th-generation fighter.

The F-14 was certainly a big influence on SDF Macross. Not only was the airframe used as the basis for the design of the VF-1, but Skull Squadron was based on the F-14 Jolly Rogers squdron. Also, American carrier operations were inserted into the show almost whole cloth.

Originally Posted by iseng

I think what seraphon was pointing out the effects of an object passing at high speed on its surrounding environment.

In a fluid medium environment, an object passing through at high speed creates pressure waves (both in front and behind it).

I know. This is a form of overpressure.

Originally Posted by iseng

The volume of the shock waves depends on the quantity of the medium being accelerated. This in turn depends on the size of the passing object. Bigger object creates bigger waves.

However, smaller object (or rather shorter object) compresses the waves more, thus creating stronger waves. It's smaller but does the job better.

Not quite; it's largely a function of the volume of air displaced modified by the amount of time. Thus a larger cross-section will create more overpressure, just as a faster-moving object will.

Originally Posted by iseng

Personally, I'm more concerned with the barrage itself. GAU-8 Avenger 30mm muzzle velocity is 990 m/s (about Mach 3) with rate of fire of 1800-3900 rounds per minute.

Each second, 30-65 rounds are flying to Alto at the speed of 990 m/s. Avoidance is practically impossible, due to humans body frailty.

I believe that this is partially the point. It's impossible to actually dodge bullets, which is why aircraft have been employing evasive maneuvers for the last century or so. If the red alien hadn't been distracted by the VF-25, Alto should have been slaughtered.

Originally Posted by iseng

On another point. what I don't understand is, with all technological advances why would they still use gas propelled projectile weapons (ie crude outdated gunpowder firearms)?

If gunpowder weapons are sufficient for their purposes, there's no pressing need to switch to other weapons. Valkyrie gunpods are only designed to take on other small craft, and they have missiles for larger targets. It seems to be a fairly reasonable setup.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The F-14 was certainly a big influence on SDF Macross. Not only was the airframe used as the basis for the design of the VF-1, but Skull Squadron was based on the F-14 Jolly Rogers squdron.

You can clearly see the influence in this image.

[SuperKnuckles]

TOMCATS. HELL YEAH.

The swept forward thing looked pretty swell, though I'm glad to see the VF return to its roots. The whole swept forward wing design basically faded away for the most part in real life too. There's a reason why the swept back wings work. Though I won't get into the technicalities. I don't wanna argue about it like you guys are.

[Aquifina]

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

TOMCATS. HELL YEAH.

The swept forward thing looked pretty swell, though I'm glad to see the VF return to its roots. The whole swept forward wing design basically faded away for the most part in real life too. There's a reason why the swept back wings work. Though I won't get into the technicalities. I don't wanna argue about it like you guys are.

I get the distinct feeling that both this franchise and its fans are pretty heavy into military gear. Do you guys read Jane's for grins, or something? Gundam 00 had a touch of that--for example, the big merc. org was called the same acronym now used by firms like Blackwater (PMC)--and Full Metal Panic seemed to make greater attempts at pseudo military realism (outside of things like the preposterous idea of a ship captain looking like a hot anime high school girl)--but to me, this series just seems more plausible in military terms.

[iseng]

Kawamori Shoji's fav movie must be Top Gun.

It's a great combination: fighter plane + mech.

Aesthetically, I like forward swept wings + canard. VF-19 images: http://nosutaru.fc2web.com/MACROSS/YS-19/1-72YF-19.html *drool*

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by Aquifina

I get the distinct feeling that both this franchise and its fans are pretty heavy into military gear.

Well, maybe not everybody.

But take a look at the wikipedia entry for the VF-1 Valkyrie, and you can pretty much tell that its creators were quite serious and in depth with their ideas. Military otakus would feel right at home.

[iseng]

Originally Posted by Aquifina

I get the distinct feeling that both this franchise and its fans are pretty heavy into military gear. Do you guys read Jane's for grins, or something? Gundam 00 had a touch of that--for example, the big merc. org was called the same acronym now used by firms like Blackwater (PMC)--and Full Metal Panic seemed to make greater attempts at pseudo military realism (outside of things like the preposterous idea of a ship captain looking like a hot anime high school girl)--but to me, this series just seems more plausible in military terms.

You may want to check Patlabor out. Somewhat older series but very good.

[orion]

Well, the school setting and teen characters makes this one more accessible to the rest of anime fans imo. They even threw in a bishounen for the girls and the moe one (Ranka) to generate the income.

I wouldn't mind seeing a bayonet as a backup weapon either.

So do you think that the objective was to find a female specimen and possibly a male specimen? If it was just a killing spree, the alien could have blasted Ranka from a distance.

[Westlo]

The alien saw the nyan nyan commercial and wanted to eat one of its gorgeous serving girls.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Westlo

The alien saw the nyan nyan commercial and wanted to eat one of its gorgeous serving girls.

With Hiiro sauce on the side. Yum!

[ChronoReverse]

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

The whole swept forward wing design basically faded away for the most part in real life too. There's a reason why the swept back wings work. Though I won't get into the technicalities. I don't wanna argue about it like you guys are.

I find that a fascinating comment to make when the (1) SU-47 is a swept-forward design, (2) the Eurofighter is a delta design (3) the F-22 isn't the normal swept-back design

There are some limitations of he swept-forward design, but it does work for its purposes (super high atmospheric maneuverability) and they certainly have the materials strong enough for it to be feasible. In any case, I wouldn't say it's faded away when all three of the current top of the line fighters have different wing configurations

In any case the needs of our modern air forces are quite different from the Macross future world. Maneuverability seems to be extremely important (which was why the 19 had the swept-forward wings plus canards while the 22 had 3D thrust vectoring plus the composite reconfigurable wing.

(Must draw you in mwuahahaha!)

[certhas]

isnt the discussion about wing-designs somehow unnecessary ?
i mean, you dont need any aerodynamic optimized "flying crafts" when you operate in space. especially if you also can control gravity just as you please.

certhas

[C.A.]

Just have to say this:

It has been like 2 weeks and I still can't get 'Nyan nyan', out of my head.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by iseng

Kawamori Shoji's fav movie must be Top Gun.

I don't know if it's his favorite movie, but it seems like he liked it well enough to make his own version.

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

I find that a fascinating comment to make when the (1) SU-47 is a swept-forward design, (2) the Eurofighter is a delta design (3) the F-22 isn't the normal swept-back design

And there's other wierd designs like the YF-23's triangle-shaped wings. Suffice it to say that there's all sorts of reasons for the different wing shapes.

Originally Posted by certhas

isnt the discussion about wing-designs somehow unnecessary ?
i mean, you dont need any aerodynamic optimized "flying crafts" when you operate in space. especially if you also can control gravity just as you please.

It's apparent that good atmospheric performance is a prime consideration for variable fighter designs - the fact that they transform into fighters at all is a dead giveaway. Aside from that, there's all sorts of design aspects that only make a difference in atmospheric flight.

[Forceflow]

That and the fact that with the colony fleets, the fleets will eventually settle new planets, making it vital for the crafts to be able to function under atmospheric conditions as well.

Wonder if there will be underwater craft. Miss the VA-3M just for the sheer fact that it can function underwater.

[Aquifina]

Originally Posted by iseng

You may want to check Patlabor out. Somewhat older series but very good.

I've heard of it, and actually have been meaning to look at it for a while. I suppose I'd count as a pretty casual anime fan, although I've been watching more as of late.

Originally Posted by kujoe

Well, maybe not everybody.

But take a look at the wikipedia entry for the VF-1 Valkyrie, and you can pretty much tell that its creators were quite serious and in depth with their ideas. Military otakus would feel right at home.

Dear gawd, I glanced through that page, and it's pretty absurdly detailed. I was somewhat bemused by how optimistic they were in terms of the timeline for technological advances. I think it was maybe a month ago the F-22 was finally declared to be completely combat ready. And heaven knows when the F-35 will be truly deployable.

[RamzaOwns]

Originally Posted by iseng

4tran:

RamzaOwns:



It doesn't work that way. Alright you mentioned 3 different things here:

1. g = g-force = acceleration.
2. G = grativational constant.
   I think what you meant by G is artificial gravity strength of Macross Frontier Island-1's, which is 0.75 of earth's.
3. Spacefold - not sure how it works so can't really comment here.

Regarding g-force, human body can tolerate:

• upward vertical g-force of ~3 g
• downward vertical of ~5 g
• forward horizontal of ~12 g
• backward horizontal ~17 g.

For comparison, sneezing subjects you to ~3g. Roller rides subject you from ~3g to ~7g. The population of Island-1 is used to 0.75G; thus less tolerant of g-force.

Although humans posseses the spacefold technology, there is no known application as portable innertial compensator small enough for personnel equipment.

To dodge tens of bullets travelling at say 1000 m/s, Alto must be subjected to tens (if not above a hundred) of g. He shouldn't have survived. Either the bullet would have killed him, or the brutal acceleration.

--------

On another point. what I don't understand is, with all technological advances why would they still use gas propelled projectile weapons (ie crude outdated gunpowder firearms)?

Why not say electromagnetic accelerated projectile like coilgun / gauss gun?

wow...ok u proved me wrong

[ChronoReverse]

There has to be atmospheric capability since VF's are about versatility and that means both space and terrestrial battles. The designs of the VF's actually account for this. For instance, the YF-19 has canards and a variable swept-forward wing for high maneuverability. The VF-19 (production model) had a fixed swept-forward wing instead while retaining the canards. The VF-19S (space model) removed the canards for a bank of vernier jets instead so that space performance is improved at the expense of terrestrial combat performance. This is why Macross mecha are so fascinating.

Dear gawd, I glanced through that page, and it's pretty absurdly detailed. I was somewhat bemused by how optimistic they were in terms of the timeline for technological advances. I think it was maybe a month ago the F-22 was finally declared to be completely combat ready. And heaven knows when the F-35 will be truly deployable.

To be fair, they had something called the ASS-1 drop down which propelled technology at least a hundred years forward (they called it Overtechnology). They also had a world war and those tend to drive technology forward even quicker.



Incidentally, the YF-19 could hit over 30G's (as could the YF-22 even before cutting loose the limiters). The primary limitation of modern manned fighters in terms of G's the pilot can withstand. Considering Basara was able to take his YF-19 custom (which could hit almost 40G's) to the limit without even a flight suit, there has to be some sort of Overtechnology inertial dampening system.


As for the guns, the gunpod is a self-contained rapid fire cannon. In light of that, the most ideal design would indeed be chemical propelled shells as opposed to a some sort of rail gun. They do have rail guns though. Even in the original Macross, the Monster destroid had 4 super high powered rail cannons mounted on it.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Aquifina

Dear gawd, I glanced through that page, and it's pretty absurdly detailed. I was somewhat bemused by how optimistic they were in terms of the timeline for technological advances. I think it was maybe a month ago the F-22 was finally declared to be completely combat ready. And heaven knows when the F-35 will be truly deployable.

There's a noticeable difference in the lengths of development cycles during peacetime and wartime designs. Moreover, the American military procurement system is broken enough that it's not the best example for what is and isn't realistic (for example, the V-22 has been in development since 1986!) In comparison, the development cycle for aircraft like the MiG-15 was only three years. Of course, one would imagine that it would have taken decades, if not centuries to assimilate Overtechnology, but that's poetic license for you.

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

Incidentally, the YF-19 could hit over 30G's (as could the YF-22 even before cutting loose the limiters). The primary limitation of modern manned fighters in terms of G's the pilot can withstand. Considering Basara was able to take his YF-19 custom (which could hit almost 40G's) to the limit without even a flight suit, there has to be some sort of Overtechnology inertial dampening system.

Yup. And the VF-19's -20g capability suggests that the inertial dampener can compensate for at least 17g since humans red-out at around -3g.