Idealism vs. Cynicism, FIGHT-O!

[cheyannew]

Originally Posted by Mystique

And yet, when I see perfomers out there making music, living life after being rasied as child soliders, only taught to kill or be killed or rape or domestic abuse victims who also may have have tasted death alike you, being victim of brutal cruelty set up homes and hospices and shelters to give other women a chance to escape the fates they sadly were exposed to, one has to wonder about the nature (and perhaps upbringing) of the individual who'll either turn a tragic event into something beneficial or damn the entire human race despite only living in perhaps 1% of the planet.

Chey is one of those who in my opinion, if she hated the world, I'd not blame her but instead has fought for her happiness and wellbing and is doing much, much better, as well as supporting others who've fallen into a similar bad fate as her.
Kinda envokes a certain kinda reverence or sincere respect, if not just inspires others, but I wonder where the difference lies or if it's just 'part of their character' on how humans handle difficult events.

Guess it does fall into the realm of the cynism vs optimism.
Die anyway so what's the point (I'd ask, why are you still here then if you see being alive as pointless) vs die anyway so let's make the most of it, make the kick ass memories and go out with a smile if possible.

(btw, the stage anology is freaky cause it's a common one i use and I know i've not read that Shakespeare play yet, lol)

First, wow, thank you for that o.O

I'm not sure if I'm a cynic, realist or whatever, but the way life is, to me, sometimes I fall into a black or white way of thinking (which does drive some mad):

"I hate my job" "So find another"
"He beats me" "Leave him"
and so on. I realize life is not black and white like that, and there are nuances, but in the end, you can Live, or Die.
When something happens, no matter how tragic it is, you again have that choice: Survive, or give up and die. Should you choose survival, another choice emerges: Survive, or Live.
Surviving means you do the bare minimum you must to ensure you're not starving, etc. Living means just that: you take steps and push forward to make a better life for yourself, to overcome things that get in your way.

I admit I am rather cruel and heartless sometimes, in that I see suicide as a sign of weakness. Perhaps it's the cynic in me, perhaps it's because I once tried it, and figured out it was a really stupid thing to do, and wouldn't have actually solved anything, save for me being a coward and running from life.
I have been known to respond to someone threatening suicide (if it is indeed a threat as most are, you can generally tell if someone's actually suicidal and they won't be TELLING you) "Make sure you dress nice for the coroner". Heartless? Absolutely, and I'll be the first to admit it. If I know someone who's genuinely suicidal, I'll counsel them as best I can, and failing that, ensure someone around them is aware to keep an eye on them. But in the end it's still their choice, to Live or Die.

Choosing to live also brings the following choice, when adversity strikes:
Are you going to go "Well that sucked arse... Oh well, let's make the best of it"
Or are you going to go "That sucked! Life sucks! Everyone hates me whinge whine cry"
A friend of mine who came from an abusive home (sexual,emotional, you name it) to be an amazing mother, athlete, Phd holder, and so on, says "You get 30 minutes to whine, and then you move on". We both do the tough love thing, and while it may seem heartless, it's actually quite the opposite. Coddling someone doesn't help them grow stronger, though.

So there's a longwinded ramble that somehow ended up not really addressing cynicism vs idealism...

Or maybe it did

[Mystique]

Originally Posted by cheyannew

I admit I am rather cruel and heartless sometimes, in that I see suicide as a sign of weakness. Perhaps it's the cynic in me, perhaps it's because I once tried it, and figured out it was a really stupid thing to do, and wouldn't have actually solved anything, save for me being a coward and running from life.

I held that sentiment at age 13-15 while reading teen magazines and seeing girls wanting to kill themselves for being bullied at school.
I was being bullied for years, and yet, in my very simple black and white mindset, it was:

"Uh.. why the hell am I gonna let other people force me to take my life.
To hell with them, I'll get my As, leave high school and carry on with me life.
Any who tries to give me a hard time, I'll smack the crap outta them"
(that may have to be thanks to my dad who was like, if someone slaps you, slap them twofold so they think twice before coming back at ya, especially as a girl)
As a kid, i didn't have that nature but I was rarely 'comforted' if I allowed myself to be walked all over.
Tough love? Perhaps...

Well, fights = expulsion and girls bully on an emotional and mental level, hence I hate my gender, but seeing as all I know how to do is to survive and fight, suicide seemed like a lame ass way out, it did (and so some extent although as you get older, you see more of the grey in life) does seem weak.
Depends on the culture and country of people, somewhere like Japan, people are fast to jump train tracks, so one has to wonder where's the lifeline to show them that life can be amended and continued on if they want.

I guess that's another thing.
For the majority of us who live in relative comfort, who can research, take time to sit down and see the majority of faults of our governments, the bad side of human nature and nitpick all the faults alike Archon_Wing is doing are the ones with a more cynical view than those who have very little to survive on, know that each day could be their last, but make the best of it, try to enjoy their time or benefit themselves to break the chain of poverty, pain or hatred.
(ie: some SA girls under 15 who look after their siblings and walk 2 hours just to get to school to be able to educate themselves just so they can give themselves the power and key to step into another world that help to break their cycle of their misfortune)
It's a similar fate when kids diagnosed with fatal diseases only have some time to live but outta sheer willpower, they live longer than their diagnosed expectation and inspire and empower those around them through their courage and positive outlook.
That's where the difference lies. Even in your lifetime a certain result doesn't occur, that doesn't mean others won't remember or continue the work for you beyond death, or that some events you shared with someone won't inspire them in their future.

Life is difficult, that's a given. She's a bitch with Irony as her cruel sense of humour but she doesn't suck. She just makes it harder for us to get the good stuff so that we appreciate it more, cause goodness knows that as humans we cannot help but take what is readily available to us for granted.
It doesn't matter if you're not world famous, people make a difference all over and are remembered via their work for others in local towns, cities or countries.
Rather than anaylsing and thinking on a global scale about the faults, one should work to enrich their lives around them or move elsewhere to allow them that chance for the present time.
Let's try to make it easier on each other, rather than much more difficult than it already is.

It's very easy to whine, but very difficult to take action and that's another thing about cynics that one has to wonder if most are just blowing hot air for the sake of it.
However I do admire Reckoner's post on how he views himself and his life, interesting p.o.v to hear in what otherwise would be something that i could never, ever fathom.

[ChainLegacy]

I think we could also add into the mix other philosophies than idealism and cynicism. Personally for me, stoicism is probably the most accurate description of my philosophies. I strive for a peace of mind by improving my reasoning skills regarding the natural world to such an extent that I can maintain satisfaction even when misfortune befalls me.

[Archon_Wing]

In other news, seeing this thread allowed me to merge the disjointed quotes in my sig into one statement. I think it better reflects what I think.

I'm at the point where my answer to "Is life pointless?" is not actually yes or no, but the actual question is pointless-- why would I worry about such a thing to begin with? It makes me happier.
A wise man did ask me once: If you had a chance, would live you life again in the exact same way again? At first I said no, but skip a few years and it just might be yes.

Originally Posted by cheyannew

I admit I am rather cruel and heartless sometimes, in that I see suicide as a sign of weakness. Perhaps it's the cynic in me, perhaps it's because I once tried it, and figured out it was a really stupid thing to do, and wouldn't have actually solved anything, save for me being a coward and running from life.
I have been known to respond to someone threatening suicide (if it is indeed a threat as most are, you can generally tell if someone's actually suicidal and they won't be TELLING you) "Make sure you dress nice for the coroner". Heartless? Absolutely, and I'll be the first to admit it. If I know someone who's genuinely suicidal, I'll counsel them as best I can, and failing that, ensure someone around them is aware to keep an eye on them. But in the end it's still their choice, to Live or Die.

I don't know, though I once thought like that too. If it gets to the point where people are gonna kill themselves, it's not something that can always be overpowered by personal strength. It's a point where one can't see any solution. Yea, it might be stupid, but sometimes rashness and the heat of the moment can get to the best of us and just a momentary, though tragic loss of judgment.

[Kaijo]

Careful, Chey, someone might begin to see you as a cynic who sucks the fun out of things. :P

While I prefer to believe I'm more of a realist, in that I see the world as is so I can deal with the world as is, I'm not heartless. Quite the contrary; I see how things could be better, and just get frustrated more people don't step up. And when I try to bring these problems to people's attention so they can be fixed, I generally get treated as a paranoid lunatic.

For instance, copyright. How corporations are buying up our culture, and paying off governments to reap continued profit from us. ASCAP, which shakes down local coffee shops, demanding copyright fees even if all they allow is original bands and original music. Why? "Because it only takes 4 notes to infringe on a song; pay up or we shut you down." And do coffee shops can't offer free live music from live original bands.

And yet, if you try to tell people about how theft of our culture is making things worse, people's eyes glaze over and they don't care. That's what drives me cynical. I want to see people caring, and people fighting.

What's more, I want to see people accepting those that are different. People who can go, "Yeah, we're different, but we can be friends, and we can work out issues that pass between us." But then I see friendship after friendship breakup, person after person grow angry and hate each other, group after group shun those who look different, or speak different, or think different.

So despite how cynical and negative I may seem, I know it starts with me: I make the choice to accept everyone (if they will accept me). I don't care what they've done, or how they act, or what they say; I believe everyone deserves chances at friendship and at being accepted. I try not to hold grudges, but I will call people out and say, "This wasn't a good move; let's work together and find a better way" because that's that I want friends to do for me.

And ironically, that's probably more idealistic that many people who've called me cynical or negative would do. I'd rather be idealistic, and see the good things happen; prove to me they can.

[Nightbat®]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I want to see people caring, and people fighting.

I would like to see people caring and fighting
But alas when they do it's usually for the wrong reasons and even if it's for the right reasons, it usually ends up changing nothing

There is no black and white anymore, that's the problem
these days, you're not allowed to fight for what you believe in because 'in the grey'
there's a big chance what you believe in is wrong
Everyone suddenly is a politician, because loyalty would just get you in trouble

In a world of hidden agendas, where the bad guys end up as the victims, and the good guys are forced to stand down
people have become lost and demoralised