AnimeSuki Forums

Anita · 2009-09-03, 06:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keroko

The problem I see there is that an IS isn't magic, and in fact seems to be more limited than regular Nanohaverse magic. An IS is basically a single magical skill converted to use another form of energy. While an IS is often stronger than an average skill of the same type, they're not stronger than magic itself. Case in point, Dieci's IS shot could not defeat Nanoha's barrier or attacks. Similarely, Tre's speed IS was slower than Fate's speed magic.

That has been our point since the beginning. IS isn't magic, it's a Inherent Skill, one that you naturally have due to inheritance. It uses a different energy source too. It doesn't automatically cause the defeat of it's magic equivalent, as it stands, it seems more like different ways of doing the same thing.

However, I don't see how this could be just "a magic spell converted to work on nethergon". I doubt magic spells are inherited, on the contrary it seems you have to learn to use a certain magic spell. IS are inherent in you, and lucky you to have more than 1, if at all! This is why it appears limited.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheba

One solution is to take basis in the nen system from Hunter x Hunter, the more limitations and/or conditions,or the more crippling, you put on yourself, the more powerful is can be. + the nen powers are extremely specialized.

I can see how the Skill is both a boon and a curse. Few people go through life constantly being subjected to memento mori. And that is on top of the psychological toll for using the powerful Skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Not really no, when I say the entire universe was set up to allow it I mean the entire universe (like literally since the fictional universe was built to allow this plot device to work). The power in question only works because of the weird way the Nasuverse works, get rid of that and it's impossible. The Nanoha verse is a very different universe and so the underlying foundations that make the skill vaguely possible are absent.

Nasuverse operates on taking a world's traditional concepts of function and subverting it. It is no different from taking cues from canon and interpreting in our own way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tk3997

I'm tired of people that think "lol it's magic so ANYTHING is possible" magic in every universe has it's own set of rules (in 99.9% of cases). Which means that no everything is not possible and in fact many things are impossible because the unique conditions required for them are absent. It would be like trying to jam Nanoha into lord of the rings, it just would not work at all, or if the author did it anyway it would end up stupid and horrendously jaring.

You mean the stuff that's completely unfounded, unsupported, and that you've crudely chainsawed out of another universe and tried to duck tape onto this one resulting in a shambling undead monstrosity?

This true magic stuff is a load BS that could fill a tractor trailer. This is not the Nasuverse, it will never be the nasuverse, shit that works in the Nasuverse will not work here, stop trying to make it the nasuverse.

In any crossover or adaption there are going to be things that simply cannot be ported effectively for various reasons. The MEoDP (I can't be assed to spell that out constantly) are one of those things. They're so steeped in and based on the oddties of there home universe that they simply cannot be effectively duplicated in most others. Even a "weaker" version would need to draw on too many underlying factors that rarely exist in order to function.

They are IMO just one of those things that cannot be replicated without totally rewriting what we know of canon. This ignores all the issues Keroko is pointing out regarding how an IS probably does not work at all how you seem to think it does.

It only seems to work like that if you take it as is. We don't know everything about how Nanoha works. Where there can be doubts and where there can be irregularities to be exploited, it is fair game.

It would help greatly if you stop berating from the top of that soap box and realize that it is you and your kind who are clinging to the notion that this thread stands for canon purity, when I frankly haven't seen much to believe so.

I dare you to define how Profriten Shritt actually works, and render the concept of pre-destination completely null and void at the same time. Probable futures is not allowed because there is a chance that it can be wrong, which canon has showed otherwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tk3997

I'd love if you guys worked within the bounds of the canon we have instead of trying to rip ideas from other universes that fit into this one about as well as square peg into a round hole, but hey we can't all get what we want.

Why must it be that we must give you what you want? Especially when hammering square pegs into round holes has been the norm?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keroko

Another thought on 'natural' IS, I don't really see why they should be forced to be something they're not when we already have the canonical 'Rare Skill' term.

I think Kha mentioned it before. Rare Skills refer to all Skills in general, whether or not they can be passed onto progeny. When a Skill can, it is instead referred to as a Inherent Skill.

I think personally think the Rare adjective is rather vague. It can be rare because it occurs in minute numbers in the general population. Or it can be rare because it occurs randomly, is poorly expressed as a phenotype, or even outright defies the concept of inheritance. This would make it impossible to selectively breed progeny to increase a Rare Skill's prevalence.

My apologies for making Carym sound like a mouse. Work habit.

MeisterBabylon · 2009-09-03, 07:16

Note to self: Dwarves were NEVER meant to play Aussie-rules footie with Giants.

Thus I end my friggin long day... only to find that Anita caused a Cat 5 Shitstorm? What is this?

And I think Anita was speaking metaphorically about science is magic and magic is science, where what Nanoha calls magic is just very advanced technology, while the magic in the traditional sense lies in the Inherent Skills wielded by the cyborgs that canon calls products of technology.

Just to add, I believe that's not all, since Jail's Twelve still resemble magical science a lot, but the concept of Skills allows for some interesting argument. What I'm saying that while Jail is using traditional magic, but his concept of power manifestation has been affected by greater society, hence the outcome is still somewhat similar to mainstream magic, just powered by different kind of batteries. It is Carym's and Acous' Rare Skills, and maybe even Hayate's, that buck the beam-cannon trend and leave the door open for more traditional powers.

But more later, once I can feel my arms again. I need a shower... Anita~~~ <3

Keroko · 2009-09-03, 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Ye gods. New content? From Goose? Nope, your eyes don't deceive you.

Be advised, there are strong kyoudai-ai sensations in this fic.

References to the Belkarangers thanks to lowe.

Spoiler for I protect:

The crack. This is what happens when you rediscover Kamen Rider after almost 20 years.

Thanks to the OCC crew for listening to me brainstorm this, especially Aaron who suggested how things turn out. Anybody who's seen Decade will understand which worlds Naomi is modding her speech from.

Goes to show that not even mindfuckery can mess up the bond between siblings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw

Anyone remember that Movie Premise I came up with called "MAGICAL GIRL" ?

Well, finally got something done.

Spoiler for Lookit!:

The 'magical girl' font is a bit... plain, I'd say. Needs some work.

And out of curiosity, what is the symbol supposed to represent?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anita

That has been our point since the beginning. IS isn't magic, it's a Inherent Skill, one that you naturally have due to inheritance. It uses a different energy source too. It doesn't automatically cause the defeat of it's magic equivalent, as it stands, it seems more like different ways of doing the same thing.

If this were the case, Nove would have Vibration Shatter as her IS just like her sister Subaru. Seeing how she doesn't, calling IS a skill that one would naturally have due to inheritance is already flawed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anita

However, I don't see how this could be just "a magic spell converted to work on nethergon". I doubt magic spells are inherited, on the contrary it seems you have to learn to use a certain magic spell. IS are inherent in you, and lucky you to have more than 1, if at all! This is why it appears limited.

Except there are no cases of anyone besides a cyborg possessing an IS, much less use it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anita

Nasuverse operates on taking a world's traditional concepts of function and subverting it. It is no different from taking cues from canon and interpreting in our own way.

It only seems to work like that if you take it as is. We don't know everything about how Nanoha works. Where there can be doubts and where there can be irregularities to be exploited, it is fair game.

It would help greatly if you stop berating from the top of that soap box and realize that it is you and your kind who are clinging to the notion that this thread stands for canon purity, when I frankly haven't seen much to believe so.

I dare you to define how Profriten Shritt actually works, and render the concept of pre-destination completely null and void at the same time. Probable futures is not allowed because there is a chance that it can be wrong, which canon has showed otherwise.

While I do agree, I would say that in order to make ideas work in the Nanohaverse, it is best to adjust the ideas to the Nanohaverse instead of the other way around. For example, my 'Eldar in the works' Rhana does not use the Warp to throw around psychic powers as they do in the Warhammerverse, but instead are simply a very potent magically gifted race.

Saying "Nanohaverse magic isn't magic, but IS is magic" even though the series says the direct opposite is trying to alter the Nanohaverse to fit Nasuverse ideas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anita

I think Kha mentioned it before. Rare Skills refer to all Skills in general, whether or not they can be passed onto progeny. When a Skill can, it is instead referred to as a Inherent Skill.

Not quite, Rare Skills refer to unique skills in an individual. While you are right in that so far they haven't been shown to be hereditary, neither are Inherent Skills. So far these have only been shown to be the result of cyborgification, and not a natural event.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon

And I think Anita was speaking metaphorically about science is magic and magic is science, where what Nanoha calls magic is just very advanced technology, while the magic in the traditional sense lies in the Inherent Skills wielded by the cyborgs that canon calls products of technology.

And this is completely not the case. In fact, it is the direct opposite. What Nanohaverse calls magic is still very much dependent on the mage itself just like traditional magic, merely enhanced by technology. IS on the other hand cannot even exist without the technology to create them in the first place.

AdmiralTigerclaw · 2009-09-03, 11:23

I almost forgot about something I came up with at work yesterday.

RIFT GRENADE

This nasty little 'toy' is a canister shaped object about the size of a NERF foam football, but is one of the nastiest magical weapons you can get for its size.

The RIFT GRENADE functions on a pre-set series of movement spells that randomly pick a location. When activated, the grenade will teleport anyone caught in the 'blast radius'. What makes it nasty is not merely that it flings you somewhere... but that it uses multiple random teleports sectioned off in the blast radius. It doesn't merely teleport you somewhere... it teleports bits of you all over the place.

So you know, if you get caught by it, they'll detect bits of you scattered all over nearby dimensional space.

You can't block it with barriers or AMF since it's Area of Effect Movement Magic. The only way to escape, is to get out of the blast radius before it triggers. (The exception is Total AMF like the Cradle. The reason minor AMF doesn't work is because all the teleportation has to do is separate your body parts... it doesn't have to send them far.)

This is a highly dangerous and deadly weapon deemed Illegal by the TSAB. (Even the non-scattering version is 99% lethal since it might still randomly teleport you into the bedrock or into space. Both very difficult places to survive.)

To activate a Rift Grenade, you twist the upper segment until it clicks and begins to whine... with the magical emitter orbs starting to glow. You then have five seconds to GET THE F*CK RID OF IT!

When it fires, there's a high frequency pulse sound and a flash of light, followed by a loud pop as air rushes to fill the vaccume that was created with the teleport.
It is a single use weapon, as once fired, it has also teleported its own components all over dimensional space.

The weapon is produced by illegal arms manufacturers profficient in magic, and is a favorite of terrorist groups. Luckly, it is difficult to create without high level magic skills, and thus, very rare to encounter. However, it accounts of 30% of all non-mage to mage kills in terrorist handling actions.

Mages are taught to know the sound of an armed Rift grenade, and not to think about anything other than getting the F*CK away from it as soon as they hear it. (Most flight capable mages reflexively fly straight up to get out of the five meter blast radius. While not observed in combat, this would present a tactical method of leading a mage into a shot.)

Keroko · 2009-09-03, 11:41

A lethal weapon. Two issues with it though, first, AMF would very much affect the device. Area of effect movement magic or not, a spell is a spell. Linked mana is required for a teleportation, and seeing how teleportation seems to be more complicated than flying judging by how few characters actually know how to do it such a spell would be heavily linked, and thus very weak against an AMF.

Secondly, teleporting enemies has been shown only once, against a berserk program with virtually no consciousness, and even then they had to tear it apart an use a specialized technique before they could teleport its core. Saying 'no defense' could work against these things despite the fact that there does seem to be a defense against teleportation is a bit of a contradiction.

Of course, there is also the maniacal difficulty of the multiple random teleports. If even a regular teleport is rare, a device that teleports bits of you in random directions would be even more so, if it is possible at all.

AdmiralTigerclaw · 2009-09-03, 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keroko

A lethal weapon. Two issues with it though, first, AMF would very much affect the device. Area of effect movement magic or not, a spell is a spell. Linked mana is required for a teleportation, and seeing how teleportation seems to be more complicated than flying judging by how few characters actually know how to do it such a spell would be heavily linked, and thus very weak against an AMF.

Except that AMF isn't a full cutoff, it weakens first. A weakened teleport is still a teleport. And instead of being flung thousands of miles, target gets flung a few feet. At that point, it's pretty much not relevant how far you're flung, you're still flung.

Quote:

Secondly, teleporting enemies has been shown only once, against a berserk program with virtually no consciousness, and even then they had to tear it apart an use a specialized technique before they could teleport its core. Saying 'no defense' could work against these things despite the fact that there does seem to be a defense against teleportation is a bit of a contradiction.

There is no actual information concerning just how much of that was defense. Remember, the Book's defense program is an exception, not the rule. It's SSS level nastiness and, very VERY large. If they hadn't busted it down to the core, they'd have to try and move the ENTIRE mass. Which, given how much it took just to move the momentarily disabled core, would have been beyond the power of the THREE specialist mages that performed the task.

Quote:

Of course, there is also the maniacal difficulty of the multiple random teleports. If even a regular teleport is rare, a device that teleports bits of you in random directions would be even more so, if it is possible at all.

Machine based teleportation isn't rare, it's a component of every TSAB cruiser and space facility. The most difficult part is targetting and coherency. Which are computationally intensive. Power for teleports obviously isn't the largest issue at hand. Seeing as decently powered mages can hop dimensions solo.

Multiple short teleports of with cones of influence each leading to a randomly selected coordinet is actually mathematically a lot easier than getting one coherent, safe transfer. In fact, since there is no need for safety protocalls to ensure what you get on the other side hasn't be arbitrarily rearranged into a Gelatnious blob, it's absurdly easy. You just get a dozen small teleport spells to grab anything in their range, and fling that part in one direction. Destination calculation doesn't matter, coherency doesn't matter. What it latched onto doesn't matter.

Since you're a pure magic fan, and hate treknobabble, you've probably never read just how much actually goes into a Star Trek Styled matter transport, and the safety issues involved in it. Now, while magic instead of Treknobabble, there is STILL a lot in a teleport that can go oh so horribly wrong because its still operating on the same fundamentals of relocating X amount of matter between two points.

Let me explain just what can go wrong.

1: The destination is inaccurate.
When teleporting, KNOW WHERE YOU ARE GOING. A mis-read coordinet can mean the difference between teleporting to a safe ingress point, or teleporting yourself half way into a brick wall. (Or into space, etc.) Obviously a safety protocall won't let this occure.

1a: Inaccurate frame of refference.
While getting the right location is important. It may seem trivial to know that you might want to fix your frame of refference. When teleporting from a cruiser in orbit to a planet's surface. You may want to take into account that the cruiser is orbiting at a velocity greater than 22 thousand miles per hour. You may want to, at some point in your teleport, adjust your refference velocity so you don't appear at the destination, moving at 22 thousand miles per hour. The subsiquent collission with the atmosphere and any nearby objects at this velocity may have undesirable repercussions on your future career options.

2: Getting there 'on time' never meant so much.
When you teleport, you want to do so coherently, synchronized, and quickly. It wouldn't be very good for your health if the teleport began and you teleported in segments based on density now would it? It's generally not good if bits of you arrive at the destination at different times. Something has to keep the whole 'pattern' in synch so that every bit arrives at the same time.

3: A place for everything, and everything is not in its place.
Going with above, could you imagine what happens if you get scrambled 'mid-flight' or something screws up? Things that can go wrong with a teleport can range from your molecular structure getting scrambled. To appearing at the destination with your Kidney lodged in your BRAIN. Or worse, bits of you appearing off course completely. Hey look, you teleported in, and your heart reappeared over there on that meat grinder... F*CK!

4: Power Surges and 'Buffer Underrun'...
So now you know what happens when things screw up in terms of destination, timing, or order. What happens if something iterrupts the power flow of a teleport? That could easily slow one part down, throw it off course, or scramble it. Good luck collecting your insides from the local countryside.

For these mages to successfully function in terms of pure teleports, their devices and stations have to do a whole lot of work to make sure they get somewhere in the same state as when they left. Namely, ALIVE.

A teleport bomb has none of these restrictions. It's job is to kill you. And since killing you doesn't require timed arrival, good destination choice, coherent arrival of the package, or even arrival of the package at all... it's a lot easier to make that spell.

Jimmy C · 2009-09-03, 13:04

The boom still needs to arrive in coherent enough condition to go BOOM instead of splat like a burst water balloon.

AdmiralTigerclaw · 2009-09-03, 13:13

What boom?

It's not making you go boom, it's teleporting bits of you in random directions.

LoweGear · 2009-09-03, 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw

Except that AMF isn't a full cutoff, it weakens first. A weakened teleport is still a teleport. And instead of being flung thousands of miles, target gets flung a few feet. At that point, it's pretty much not relevant how far you're flung, you're still flung.

I think the pertinent issue here is whether a teleport can actually be initiated at all under the weakening effects of an AMF. Do we know that there isn't a minimum linkage/energy requirement required for a spell as complicated as a teleport, and that the weakening by an AMF wouldn't cause it to misfire or not function at all?

AdmiralTigerclaw · 2009-09-03, 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoweGear

I think the pertinent issue here is whether a teleport can actually be initiated at all under the weakening effects of an AMF. Do we know that there isn't a minimum linkage/energy requirement required for a spell as complicated as a teleport, and that the weakening by an AMF wouldn't cause it to misfire or not function at all?

Wouldn't be much of an issue I would think, not for a teleport bomb at least. Most of the complexity of a teleport is in the fact that it needs to get something to a destination in one piece. Interference from AMF would be a safety issue that keeps people from using them, because if the AMF disrupts the teleport, you turn into Scrambled Mage. Too risky to Use.

A weaponized teleport that simply grabs bits and throws with no real reguard to any of that isn't going to have those issues with disruptions from AMF. In fact, the AMF disruptions would make it even MORE dangerous.

It's like comparing the Space Shuttle, to a meteor. The space shuttle has to come in at a specific entry angle and velocity to avoid getting torn up. A meteor has no such stipulations.

FlameSparkZ · 2009-09-03, 13:35

I was wandering round in danbooru when I found a nice scan of Force official artwork...and...

Agito has a new Barrier Jacket/Knight's Garb

Spoiler for Agito:

Looks good on her too

Keroko · 2009-09-03, 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw

Except that AMF isn't a full cutoff, it weakens first. A weakened teleport is still a teleport. And instead of being flung thousands of miles, target gets flung a few feet. At that point, it's pretty much not relevant how far you're flung, you're still flung.

Would it? I'd say the teleport would fail to teleport altogether. Teleportation isn't simply throwing an object, it's a complicated spell that works from start to finish, quitting halfway is not an option.

Of course, this is ignoring that under an AMF, said links wouldn't form at all, thus preventing any form of 'detonation' altogether.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw

There is no actual information concerning just how much of that was defense. Remember, the Book's defense program is an exception, not the rule. It's SSS level nastiness and, very VERY large. If they hadn't busted it down to the core, they'd have to try and move the ENTIRE mass. Which, given how much it took just to move the momentarily disabled core, would have been beyond the power of the THREE specialist mages that performed the task.

Which does nothing to prove your theory either. In fact, considering this is the only case of teleportation ever working, and it required, as you say, no less than three specialist mages to teleport only a core, I doubt your grenade with no mage backing it up could manage multiple random teleportations against the targets will.

Again, beyond the Yami no Sho, there has never been any case of enemy teleportation working. The closest thing we have -which is Shamal's mirror teleporting her hand into an enemy- specifically stated she could only do this because Nanoha's defenses were down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw

Machine based teleportation isn't rare, it's a component of every TSAB cruiser and space facility.

Yes. A cruiser powered by a generator lord knows how powerful, and assisted by computers lord knows how fast. And even they seem to have problems teleporting enemies. I don't think I need to point out how less likely this makes your grenade seem possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw

The most difficult part is targetting and coherency. Which are computationally intensive. Power for teleports obviously isn't the largest issue at hand. Seeing as decently powered mages can hop dimensions solo.

AAA rank is just a teensy bit above what I'd call 'decently' powerful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw

For these mages to successfully function in terms of pure teleports, their devices and stations have to do a whole lot of work to make sure they get somewhere in the same state as when they left. Namely, ALIVE.

A teleport bomb has none of these restrictions. It's job is to kill you. And since killing you doesn't require timed arrival, good destination choice, coherent arrival of the package, or even arrival of the package at all... it's a lot easier to make that spell.

It still needs to target something and actually teleport it. Random or not, these locations still have to be calculated. Considering the only capabilities for teleportation so far have been limited to AAA-ranked mages and spaceships, I'm having trouble believing a single grenade to contain both the computing power and the magical power to pull this off on a willing target, much less an enemy.

hideki101 · 2009-09-03, 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keroko

It still needs to target something and actually teleport it. Random or not, these locations still have to be calculated. Considering the only capabilities for teleportation so far have been limited to AAA-ranked mages and spaceships, I'm having trouble believing a single grenade to contain both the computing power and the magical power to pull this off on willing target, much less an enemy.

What about Yuuno when he pulled a forced teleport on Arf (or however her name is romanized) back in the original series? I'm fairly certain he wasn't ranked AAA+ at the time, and he did it while also maintaining a shield spell at the same time.

Keroko · 2009-09-03, 13:58

Huh... there was that one wasn't there? Totally forgot about that...

Yes, that does solve the 'willing target' issue. Still don't solve the 'multiple random teleportations' part though.

Though the part that bothers me the most is the 'You can't block it with barriers or AMF' bit. That just screams 'I want an unblockable weapon that can kill the even the Aces at full power!'

LoweGear · 2009-09-03, 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlameSparkZ

I was wandering round in danbooru when I found a nice scan of Force official artwork...and...

Agito has a new Barrier Jacket/Knight's Garb

Spoiler for Agito:

Looks good on her too

Like UD like Master ain't it? It's just Signum's BJ without the skirt, vest and gold armor plates

hideki101 · 2009-09-03, 14:45

I guess it all depends on how teleport spells work. We know that they most likely need a start location and an end location, but what happens when the end location is left blank (I'm assuming attaching a computerized randomizer will make it slightly bulky)? Will the teleport spell not activate, or will it activate? If it does activate, where does the matter being teleported go? Will it never appear (assumes the teleported matter goes through another dimension a la Nightcrawler) or will the matter pop out at a random spot (assumes wormhole -like effect)? There are a lot of questions you could look at about the Nanohaverse's magic in general, and that's what makes it fun to speculate what can actually be done with magic.

In regards to the grenade itself, I'd say the concept is relatively sound, except for several points:

1) An AMF I think should prevent it from working, mostly due to how finicky teleport spells generally are (or seem to be). Else, they'd probably just teleport onto the Cradle instead of having to blast their way in.

2) Teleporting strength issues. I mean, if teleport spells didn't have some drawback, then we should have been seeing them used left and right, especially in StrikerS (here it should be mentioned that summoners generally tend to be good teleporters) Maybe it takes a mage of certain strength to teleport another mage of yea strength. If we put Arf's strength at about Yuuno's level in MGLN, then this could also explain why it took three people to teleport the YnS core. So unless there's an absurd amount of mana packed in there (~ A rank) the stronger units could probably weather the blast.

3) Scattering. In the entire series, we've only seen teleportation of whole things or bulk amounts of people (into Precias lair). There have been no instances of parts of things being teleported off a whole. (I think the YnS's core was floating around separate from the magled corpse of it's avatar)

4) Range. This one could technically fit up there with 2. Basically the farther away you go, the more power you'd need to exert to teleport something. This is the reason why the Knights stayed close to Earth planetwise, else they would have gone off to find a far away planet, and make it look like the Master of the book was based there. Assuming short range teleports, the grenade probably wouldn't have the capability to teleport something into space.

5) Programming. All mechanical-assisted teleports we've seen so far utilized a pad as either a start or end and/or a computer somewhat larger than a football. this would imply that teleport spells require large amounts of calculation just to work, or Mid tech that are not Intelligent Devices needs a lot to program in spells.

All in all it's an interesting concept (an OC of mine uses gates to defend rather than shields; he's not necessarily Nanoha-based though) but it still needs work. And I kinda reiterated Keroko's points and made my post fairly redundant, so er...

AdmiralTigerclaw · 2009-09-03, 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keroko

Huh... there was that one wasn't there? Totally forgot about that...

Yes, that does solve the 'willing target' issue. Still don't solve the 'multiple random teleportations' part though.

I don't see what's so hard to comprehend about it.

You get three spells. Aim them manually so they cover diffierent fields of vision. And let a rip. Just like aiming three different colored lights. Each light highlights a different area in its respective color. In a similar concept, each spell cuts out an area and ships it to its random number destination. Unless you have the Infinite improbability drive, these numbers will never be the same, and each spell flings its target to that destination.

So what happens here, you get caught in the Field of Effect of two of the spells, the part of you that's in the 'Red' field gets teleported to Red Destination, and the part of you that gets caught in 'Green' field gets teleported to Green destination. You're dead. Instantly.

Split it amongst enough spells that you have a hard time getting caught in only one field of effect.

Quote:

Though the part that bothers me the most is the 'You can't block it with barriers or AMF' bit. That just screams 'I want an unblockable weapon that can kill the even the Aces at full power!'

What exactly are the aces going to do at full power? Superglue their cells together? You can't block with a defensive barrier because you're already inside the area of effect. It's not a focused attack coming in from outside you can deflect. It grabs you and/or the spacetime you're in and flings it (Depending on exactly how a magic teleport works. Methods vary.). And there isn't really much one can do to survive one half of you landing here, and the other half over there unless you're a metaphysical book that has reincarnation abilities that allow you to be vaporized on a regular basis and survive.

Super mages or not. At the end of the day, they're still fleshbags. And there's always a way to kill someone if you tag them just right.

There is no physical defense against the effect of this grenade, except to get out of its blast. It's a five meter 'blast' with a clear 'inside/outside' spheroid radius. That being said, the Aces should have no trouble at all dodging the thing. They have five seconds and a loud warning to get the f*ck away from it, as they can fly and have near bullet timer reaction speeds.

Also, being a grenade, it has the limitations of a grenade. It cannot fly, it's more than likely thrown. So it's most likely going to be going off on the ground somewhere.

It's hardly a game breaker weapon, but its not just some weapon. As the chem scientist said in The Rock.

"The moment you don't respect this, it kills you."

So in this light. Take it seriously, even with Aces.

"If someone throws this grenade at you, and it goes off, it kills you.
If you trip this grenade, and it goes off, it kills you.
If you use a shield to protect yourself against this grenade, and it goes off, it kills you.
If you are NEAR this grenade, and it goes off, it kills you.
Does anyone here notice a pattern with this grenade?

It's simple class: IT KILLS YOU.

Respect this grenade. Because if you don't, guess what?"

CLASS: "IT KILLS YOU!"

"Very good!"

There is however, one possibility aside from avoiding it.

Destroy the grenade before the fuse hits zero. Then you just get an explosion from the released magical energy, rather than the teleport.

You better be quick, and thorough though.

EDIT: @ Hideki.

I already went over why Teleport spells are finicky and require a lot of support structure. Getting things moved around 'in one peice/alive' is thousands of times more complicated than a raw 'fling matter any which way' spell that does not require coherency.

EDIT 2: Random Numbers.

I took computer science in high school. Random number generation requires nothing larger than a microprocessor that can do math, as Random Number code is some of the oldest code in existence.

Keroko · 2009-09-03, 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw

I don't see what's so hard to comprehend about it.

You get three spells. Aim them manually so they cover diffierent fields of vision. And let a rip. Just like aiming three different colored lights. Each light highlights a different area in its respective color. In a similar concept, each spell cuts out an area and ships it to its random number destination. Unless you have the Infinite improbability drive, these numbers will never be the same, and each spell flings its target to that destination.

So what happens here, you get caught in the Field of Effect of two of the spells, the part of you that's in the 'Red' field gets teleported to Red Destination, and the part of you that gets caught in 'Green' field gets teleported to Green destination. You're dead. Instantly.

Split it amongst enough spells that you have a hard time getting caught in only one field of effect.

This doesn't dodge the issue: Even standard, normal, one-on-one 'port a few yards away' teleportation magic is rare and difficult to the point where they can be counted on our hands, and over half of those had the skill specifically programmed into them because their entire magic style lacked such a spell. How does a grenade manage dozens (if not more) of them at the same time?

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw

What exactly are the aces going to do at full power? Superglue their cells together? You can't block with a defensive barrier because you're already inside the area of effect. It's not a focused attack coming in from outside you can deflect. It grabs you and/or the spacetime you're in and flings it (Depending on exactly how a magic teleport works. Methods vary.). And there isn't really much one can do to survive one half of you landing here, and the other half over there unless you're a metaphysical book that has reincarnation abilities that allow you to be vaporized on a regular basis and survive.

Super mages or not. At the end of the day, they're still fleshbags. And there's always a way to kill someone if you tag them just right.

There is no physical defense against the effect of this grenade, except to get out of its blast. It's a five meter 'blast' with a clear 'inside/outside' spheroid radius. That being said, the Aces should have no trouble at all dodging the thing. They have five seconds and a loud warning to get the f*ck away from it, as they can fly and have near bullet timer reaction speeds.

Also, being a grenade, it has the limitations of a grenade. It cannot fly, it's more than likely thrown. So it's most likely going to be going off on the ground somewhere.

It's hardly a game breaker weapon, but its not just some weapon. As the chem scientist said in The Rock.

"The moment you don't respect this, it kills you."

So in this light. Take it seriously, even with Aces.

"If someone throws this grenade at you, and it goes off, it kills you.
If you trip this grenade, and it goes off, it kills you.
If you use a shield to protect yourself against this grenade, and it goes off, it kills you.
If you are NEAR this grenade, and it goes off, it kills you.
Does anyone here notice a pattern with this grenade?

It's simple class: IT KILLS YOU.

Respect this grenade. Because if you don't, guess what?"

CLASS: "IT KILLS YOU!"

"Very good!".

You jibber jabber a lot around it, but you don't refute the point: You want an invincible one shot kill weapon. A hand-carried invincible one-shot-kill weapon. Were this a magic spell it would never pass the bill and be labeled overpowered right away, why should we allow its technological brother a free pass?

stormturmoil · 2009-09-03, 17:55

To add to what Keroko has said: rules of reproducibility: if you can build a small one, you can build a big one.

That's how science works. And in Nanoha-Verse, Magic is a science.

Congratulations, you just put the Death Star into a briefcase. Your terrorists can now mass-scatter Planets.

The Bureau may as well just kill themselves and cut out the god damned middleman, because with this, there is no way to oppose whoever has it.

You don't think so? One coordinated strike with these things on a Bureau Barracks will by it's nature wipe out basically the entire fighting strength for a city; no defence, no chance of survival.

You use One of these on the ground forces tower base and the tower comes down, killing everyone in it or near it. The same goes for any other large building; it's the ultimate demolition explosive; structural support just disappears!

One of these, by it's nature, detonating anywhere near a bureau ship, will cripple if not sink it. A huge chunk of hull and components is just going to disappear, and the ship is going to founder. You hit near the engines or reactors safety systems, and there's a good chance of opening the reactor...

One of these, detonated near the Bureau Naval HQ space station could destabilise the entire structure, causing it to rip itself apart!

There's a reason Shows like Trek don't let the Feds use all the funky tech-of-the-week stuff they have, and this attempt at a weaponised transporter is the kind of thing that would fall into that category...

It's too damned dangerous, and too unstoppable; whoever has it, Wins, unless someone can pull out something worse, like Go-Away Beams instead of Go-Away Bombs.

This is basically the equivalent of making the Arc-En-Ciel a hand weapon.

Tempy · 2009-09-03, 18:51

Well now.

A short.

Someone's in trouble.

Spoiler for Trapped:

EDIT: Page claim for... lunch. I like lunch.

2009-09-03, 07:16	Link #8062
MeisterBabylon ~ Your Smile ~ Author Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: 346Pro Age: 38	Note to self: Dwarves were NEVER meant to play Aussie-rules footie with Giants. Thus I end my friggin long day... only to find that Anita caused a Cat 5 Shitstorm? What is this? And I think Anita was speaking metaphorically about science is magic and magic is science, where what Nanoha calls magic is just very advanced technology, while the magic in the traditional sense lies in the Inherent Skills wielded by the cyborgs that canon calls products of technology. Just to add, I believe that's not all, since Jail's Twelve still resemble magical science a lot, but the concept of Skills allows for some interesting argument. What I'm saying that while Jail is using traditional magic, but his concept of power manifestation has been affected by greater society, hence the outcome is still somewhat similar to mainstream magic, just powered by different kind of batteries. It is Carym's and Acous' Rare Skills, and maybe even Hayate's, that buck the beam-cannon trend and leave the door open for more traditional powers. But more later, once I can feel my arms again. I need a shower... Anita~~~ <3 __________________ 白露型駆逐艦の４番艦、夕立です。第三次ソロモン海戦では、けっこう頑張ったっぽい★？

2009-09-03, 13:35	Link #8071
FlameSparkZ the "Z" is for "Zeta" Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Portugal	I was wandering round in danbooru when I found a nice scan of Force official artwork...and... Agito has a new Barrier Jacket/Knight's Garb Spoiler for Agito: Looks good on her too __________________ My Lazy Pixiv Page \| Twitter

2009-09-03, 18:51	Link #8080
Tempy Σ(。д°(o--(ಠ益ಠ ) Author Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Hotsprings Resort Age: 37	Well now. A short. Someone's in trouble. Spoiler for Trapped: “This is a familiar situation.” The time was a little after noon. The location, a quiet grassy spot just outside Riot Force Six’s headquarters. There, resting under the cool shade of a tree, were two people: a tall man wearing a sort of fancy coat and a petite woman in a simple dress-suit. “It’s your fault.” The man had his lunch in his hands, a simple sandwich set with a drink nearby, while the woman had a small pile of papers in her hand and in her lap. “You were the one that sought me out.” While neither individual were directly members of Riot Force Six, they were around often enough to be considered regulars, or even honorary members. Having close friends within the organization helped too. As such, the presences of Knight Noland Reiniger and Inspector Kaon Jin were not unwelcomed. “Yeah, I know. And it’s your fault.” So there they were, enjoying a comfortable afternoon… with Kaon sitting in Noland’s lap. It was unusual, in a way, mostly because of how such a situation came to be. Whilst the knight was quietly partaking in a small repast, the devilish inspector appeared suddenly and abruptly planted herself into Noland’s lap, leading to the current conversation. “How is this my fault?” “You’re too comfy. From now on, you are my work chair.” If Noland could blink, he would have. “Work chair? Are you going to seek me out every time you need to do work?” “No. You are going to come to me.” “That is a little on the unreasonable side…” “Nah. What’s unreasonable is this bloody investigation. The numbers don’t make sense. I get conflicting reports. Agents keep arguing over dumb things like the Aces’ relationships instead of doing work. Said agents complain about said work. That leaves me to pick up the slack. Did you know I have twenty hours overtime? And arraragh I hate my job.” With an indignant huff, Kaon’s arm snaked out and plucked the last half of Noland’s sandwich, chomping down on it before the knight could do anything about the theft. Instead, he was left to merely voice his complaint. “Wha—Hey, that sandwich is mine!” “And it’s delicious. What’s in it?” He sighed in resignation. At least he got to eat half of it… “Roasted chicken, sliced apples, bacon, lettuce, tomato, and garlic-pepper mayonnaise on honey wheat.” “Glorious. Like a super BLT,” she chowed down on the last bites of the sandwich before washing it down with Noland’s pilfered beverage. “Ahh! Good iced barley tea.” “Hey, Lady Vivio made that for me!” Now that, he hadn’t tasted yet. “Don’t worry, I only drank half of it…” she peered into the thermos. “Okay, I only drank three- quarters of it. Maybe a little more.” “Is there anything else you would like to requisition from me?” the knight asked dryly. “Nope, I think I’m good,” she cheerfully dusted her hands off and went back to the papers. Even then, that did not last for long, as only minutes passed by before Kaon tossed the papers aside and slouched into her “chair.” Something soon caught her attention, one that demanded that she immediately mess around with. Had Noland retained his sight, he would have seen the immortal Kaon Jin batting a stray length of his hair around. Alas, being blind, he could only imagine. “…What are you doing?” “Nothing.” Bat bat. “It seems as if you are messing with my hair.” “Of course not.” Bat bat. Another sigh from the knight. “Hey, Noland,” a third voice brought the whole scene to a standstill, with Kaon shrinking deeper into her seat and Noland craning his head around reflexively. A part of him wondered how he had not heard the approach, but the rest didn’t mind. The voice was very familiar, enough to bring a natural smile to the knight’s face. One that Kaon noticed. “Good afternoon, Lady Keroko,” he greeted. “You eat lunch yet?” the mage stopped a few feet away, Kaon still unseen. “I have it here with me,” Noland held up an untouched covered dish with bits of sliced fruit inside. “Ahh. Mind if I joined you?” she held up a bento box of her own. Being blind, Noland was unable to see the disapproving look coming from the girl in his lap. “I have no problem, however…” The redhead blinked at the pause. “However…?” “Erm…” he looked down, drawing Keroko over to look. “Oh. I didn’t see you there, Inspector Jin.” Kaon tilted her head just enough to give Keroko a flat stare. “Get your own, Takamachi. I was here first.” Did the temperature just drop? “That’s not for you to decide, Inspector. Rather, Noland here just invited me to sit with him.” “Three’s a crowd, you know.” “Don’t you have work to do?” “Don’t you have trainees to maim?” “It’s lunch break.” “What a coincidence. Same for me.” “Then you won’t mind if I take up Noland’s invitation and sit here, will you?” “Do whatever you wish.” Wisely, Noland stayed quiet, opting instead to pop open his fruit mix and quietly chew on some pineapple. There was a sudden weight on his back, however, as Keroko took a seat behind him and leaned into his back. Here, he could feel the glare Kaon was giving him from his lap and the foul mood literally glowing from Keroko. He could feel a drop of sweat run down his temple. He was trapped. Perhaps he shouldn't mention that Reinforce Zwei wanted to meet him later… EDIT: Page claim for... lunch. I like lunch. __________________ Last edited by Tempy; 2009-09-04 at 20:50. Reason: Wanwan finds all my errors.

2009-09-03, 11:23	Link #8064
AdmiralTigerclaw Sword Wielding Penguin Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Subspace, Texas Age: 39	I almost forgot about something I came up with at work yesterday. RIFT GRENADE This nasty little 'toy' is a canister shaped object about the size of a NERF foam football, but is one of the nastiest magical weapons you can get for its size. The RIFT GRENADE functions on a pre-set series of movement spells that randomly pick a location. When activated, the grenade will teleport anyone caught in the 'blast radius'. What makes it nasty is not merely that it flings you somewhere... but that it uses multiple random teleports sectioned off in the blast radius. It doesn't merely teleport you somewhere... it teleports bits of you all over the place. So you know, if you get caught by it, they'll detect bits of you scattered all over nearby dimensional space. You can't block it with barriers or AMF since it's Area of Effect Movement Magic. The only way to escape, is to get out of the blast radius before it triggers. (The exception is Total AMF like the Cradle. The reason minor AMF doesn't work is because all the teleportation has to do is separate your body parts... it doesn't have to send them far.) This is a highly dangerous and deadly weapon deemed Illegal by the TSAB. (Even the non-scattering version is 99% lethal since it might still randomly teleport you into the bedrock or into space. Both very difficult places to survive.) To activate a Rift Grenade, you twist the upper segment until it clicks and begins to whine... with the magical emitter orbs starting to glow. You then have five seconds to GET THE FCK RID OF IT! When it fires, there's a high frequency pulse sound and a flash of light, followed by a loud pop as air rushes to fill the vaccume that was created with the teleport. It is a single use weapon, as once fired, it has also teleported its own components all over dimensional space. The weapon is produced by illegal arms manufacturers profficient in magic, and is a favorite of terrorist groups. Luckly, it is difficult to create without high level magic skills, and thus, very rare to encounter. However, it accounts of 30% of all non-mage to mage kills in terrorist handling actions. Mages are taught to know the sound of an armed Rift grenade, and not to think about anything other than getting the FCK away from it as soon as they hear it. (Most flight capable mages reflexively fly straight up to get out of the five meter blast radius. While not observed in combat, this would present a tactical method of leading a mage into a shot.)

2009-09-03, 11:41	Link #8065
Keroko Adeptus Animus Author Join Date: Jan 2007 Age: 36	A lethal weapon. Two issues with it though, first, AMF would very much affect the device. Area of effect movement magic or not, a spell is a spell. Linked mana is required for a teleportation, and seeing how teleportation seems to be more complicated than flying judging by how few characters actually know how to do it such a spell would be heavily linked, and thus very weak against an AMF. Secondly, teleporting enemies has been shown only once, against a berserk program with virtually no consciousness, and even then they had to tear it apart an use a specialized technique before they could teleport its core. Saying 'no defense' could work against these things despite the fact that there does seem to be a defense against teleportation is a bit of a contradiction. Of course, there is also the maniacal difficulty of the multiple random teleports. If even a regular teleport is rare, a device that teleports bits of you in random directions would be even more so, if it is possible at all.

2009-09-03, 13:04	Link #8067
Jimmy C Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007	The boom still needs to arrive in coherent enough condition to go BOOM instead of splat like a burst water balloon.

2009-09-03, 13:13	Link #8068
AdmiralTigerclaw Sword Wielding Penguin Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Subspace, Texas Age: 39	What boom? It's not making you go boom, it's teleporting bits of you in random directions.

2009-09-03, 13:58	Link #8074
Keroko Adeptus Animus Author Join Date: Jan 2007 Age: 36	Huh... there was that one wasn't there? Totally forgot about that... Yes, that does solve the 'willing target' issue. Still don't solve the 'multiple random teleportations' part though. Though the part that bothers me the most is the 'You can't block it with barriers or AMF' bit. That just screams 'I want an unblockable weapon that can kill the even the Aces at full power!'

2009-09-03, 14:45	Link #8076
hideki101 Bored out of his mind... Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Somewhere in the Local Group	I guess it all depends on how teleport spells work. We know that they most likely need a start location and an end location, but what happens when the end location is left blank (I'm assuming attaching a computerized randomizer will make it slightly bulky)? Will the teleport spell not activate, or will it activate? If it does activate, where does the matter being teleported go? Will it never appear (assumes the teleported matter goes through another dimension a la Nightcrawler) or will the matter pop out at a random spot (assumes wormhole -like effect)? There are a lot of questions you could look at about the Nanohaverse's magic in general, and that's what makes it fun to speculate what can actually be done with magic. In regards to the grenade itself, I'd say the concept is relatively sound, except for several points: 1) An AMF I think should prevent it from working, mostly due to how finicky teleport spells generally are (or seem to be). Else, they'd probably just teleport onto the Cradle instead of having to blast their way in. 2) Teleporting strength issues. I mean, if teleport spells didn't have some drawback, then we should have been seeing them used left and right, especially in StrikerS (here it should be mentioned that summoners generally tend to be good teleporters) Maybe it takes a mage of certain strength to teleport another mage of yea strength. If we put Arf's strength at about Yuuno's level in MGLN, then this could also explain why it took three people to teleport the YnS core. So unless there's an absurd amount of mana packed in there (~ A rank) the stronger units could probably weather the blast. 3) Scattering. In the entire series, we've only seen teleportation of whole things or bulk amounts of people (into Precias lair). There have been no instances of parts of things being teleported off a whole. (I think the YnS's core was floating around separate from the magled corpse of it's avatar) 4) Range. This one could technically fit up there with 2. Basically the farther away you go, the more power you'd need to exert to teleport something. This is the reason why the Knights stayed close to Earth planetwise, else they would have gone off to find a far away planet, and make it look like the Master of the book was based there. Assuming short range teleports, the grenade probably wouldn't have the capability to teleport something into space. 5) Programming. All mechanical-assisted teleports we've seen so far utilized a pad as either a start or end and/or a computer somewhat larger than a football. this would imply that teleport spells require large amounts of calculation just to work, or Mid tech that are not Intelligent Devices needs a lot to program in spells. All in all it's an interesting concept (an OC of mine uses gates to defend rather than shields; he's not necessarily Nanoha-based though) but it still needs work. And I kinda reiterated Keroko's points and made my post fairly redundant, so er...

2009-09-03, 17:55	Link #8079
stormturmoil Field Medic Join Date: May 2007	To add to what Keroko has said: rules of reproducibility: if you can build a small one, you can build a big one. That's how science works. And in Nanoha-Verse, Magic is a science. Congratulations, you just put the Death Star into a briefcase. Your terrorists can now mass-scatter Planets. The Bureau may as well just kill themselves and cut out the god damned middleman, because with this, there is no way to oppose whoever has it. You don't think so? One coordinated strike with these things on a Bureau Barracks will by it's nature wipe out basically the entire fighting strength for a city; no defence, no chance of survival. You use One of these on the ground forces tower base and the tower comes down, killing everyone in it or near it. The same goes for any other large building; it's the ultimate demolition explosive; structural support just disappears! One of these, by it's nature, detonating anywhere near a bureau ship, will cripple if not sink it. A huge chunk of hull and components is just going to disappear, and the ship is going to founder. You hit near the engines or reactors safety systems, and there's a good chance of opening the reactor... One of these, detonated near the Bureau Naval HQ space station could destabilise the entire structure, causing it to rip itself apart! There's a reason Shows like Trek don't let the Feds use all the funky tech-of-the-week stuff they have, and this attempt at a weaponised transporter is the kind of thing that would fall into that category... It's too damned dangerous, and too unstoppable; whoever has it, Wins, unless someone can pull out something worse, like Go-Away Beams instead of Go-Away Bombs. This is basically the equivalent of making the Arc-En-Ciel a hand weapon.