[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Jan-Poo]

Don't forget that it is confirmed that Beatrice already owns the gold. So the three gold bars in Ep2 are more easily explained with Beatrice showing them the proof that the gold exists.

This also gives a fair explanation of where the money in the bank accounts came from. The only other possible explanation is that those money come from Kinzo's wealth, maybe a secret account that Krauss is not aware of. I doubt that Shannon could have get that many money, and certainly the adults aren't in a situation that allowed them to relinquish 2 billions of yen.

The bank accounts and the letters sent the day before constitute one of the major flaws in the George culprit theory.
I had thought that they could be merely part of Kinzo's will. A way to let everyone get a part of his money as a "parting gift", but this doesn't make much sense. The problem is the "senders" are the relatives that didn't participate in the family meeting and the "receivers" are all people who died or went missing.
It was made in a way that the real receivers are the ones listed as senders. We know three of them: Ange, Nanjo's son, and Kumasawa's son.

Apparently Beatrice didn't write letters based on the number of people on Rokkenjima, else Ange would have received 3 letters and not just one. And she probably considered only the closest relatives, else Nanjo's son would be in possession of a second letter directed to Nanjo's granddaughter.

So how come Nanjo's son said he has seen 20 different vaults?

Krauss, Battler, Jessica, George, Eva, Kinzo, Hideyoshi, shouldn't have any close relative alive, so there shouldn't be any letter sent with their name as the receiver.

Kyrie might have been used to send a letter to Kasumi or her father, but it's doubtful. Rosa or Maria to Maria's father. though in either case one of them wasn't used.

Kanon and Shannon are orphan or disowned do they have any relative? I guess it is still possible that they have them but it is unlikely.

Then we are left with Genji, Natsuhi, Gohda, and for them it can only work provided they have brothers and sisters.

Nanjo and Kumasawa might also have other close relatives beside the two known.

I think the calculation isn't quite right unless someone has a lot of brothers and sisters, and I mean more than the average.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

The stakes, as implied by Episode 4, were probably added to the corpses after death. It doesn't even have to be the killer who adds the stakes later on, it could just be someone who wants top profit from the murders, recreating the legend of Beatrice.

I'd think that, for most of the games, the killer and the staker are one and the same, given the way the victim's injuries match the epitaph.

The only game where this is not true is Ep4.

(Also, the stakes can easily be weapons, as I continue to state. They're sharp enough to kill, just not sharp enough to stab people in the head with.)

Originally Posted by chounokoe

many things about 'living Kinzo' just don't seem to add up.

Don't forget that most of what we see of Kinzo is actually 'Goldsmith', Kinzo's magical ghost duplicate thing... I doubt much of anything he's ever said is representative of the real Kinzo, and everything else we hear about him is from his children, all of whom hate him.

Fact is we know very little real, concrete information about the guy, other than perhaps the history Genji gives us.

[Jan-Poo]

If you look at the Goldsmith of Ep5, I don't really think it can be said that he hates his family. Maybe disappointed, yes, certainly. But Battler solving the epitaph made him ecstatic, proving that what he truly wishes for is not an ending where everyone dies, and that it is perfectly fine for him that the gold gets found.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

If you look at the Goldsmith of Ep5, I don't really think it can be said that he hates his family. Maybe disappointed, yes, certainly. But Battler solving the epitaph made him ecstatic, proving that what he truly wishes for is not an ending where everyone dies, and that it is perfectly fine for him that the gold gets found.

Well, like I said, how much of the stuff Goldsmith says is really representative of how Kinzo thought when he was alive?

For that matter, what the hell is Goldsmith, anyway? I'm not quite sure whether or not he's just an illusion or a being on the same level as, say, Ronove and Gaap.

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

That kinzo was destroyed in court remember by one of the witches I think, it was a delusion of Natsuhi.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox

That kinzo was destroyed in court remember by one of the witches I think, it was a delusion of Natsuhi.

I know he shows up in scenes Natsuhi isn't present for, though.

Remember that I have yet to play Ep5.

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

That I did not know lol

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox

That I did not know lol

That's fine, fine. I've read most of the summaries, so I have a general idea of what happened, but as for the details...

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Well, like I said, how much of the stuff Goldsmith says is really representative of how Kinzo thought when he was alive?

For that matter, what the hell is Goldsmith, anyway? I'm not quite sure whether or not he's just an illusion or a being on the same level as, say, Ronove and Gaap.

The only scene that can be trusted regarding Kinzo outside of episode 5 is the 1967 flash back because of "those two actually had a conversation like that in this place."

It's interesting that they completely cut it out of the anime...

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Ssol

The only scene that can be trusted regarding Kinzo outside of episode 5 is the 1967 flash back because of "those two actually had a conversation like that in this place."

So that's the only real gauge we have of his personality. One scene. Where he is creeping on a girl who is most likely his daughter.

Great man, indeed.

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

That's fine, fine. I've read most of the summaries, so I have a general idea of what happened, but as for the details...

I just read the summaries too.....details are probably going to turn this around when the patch is released and someone does a complete summary. -too poor to get the episodes one at a time-

[Tyabann]

The minute I can get my hands on that translation patch, I'll be digging for little details.

In the meantime I've been reading a lot of mysteries, trying to work on my detecting ability.

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I'd think that, for most of the games, the killer and the staker are one and the same, given the way the victim's injuries match the epitaph.

The only game where this is not true is Ep4.

(Also, the stakes can easily be weapons, as I continue to state. They're sharp enough to kill, just not sharp enough to stab people in the head with.)

Yet why would the killer resolve to using a stake to kill in the 2 only possible twilights where their hittingspot is actually deadly AND can be performed without a device propelling them into the body.
Those only two instances are 胸を抉りて殺せ (gouge the chest and kill) and 腹を抉りて殺せ (gouge the stomach and kill).
As you said, the head is unlikely to be pierced by such a weapon wielded with bare hands and the others spots aren't likely to be instantly deadly, they are even treatable.

Of course I also think it is very probable for the staker to be at least a helper to the actual culprit (this would explain why Beatrice/Eva-Beatrice) orders the stakes to pierce the bodies after death. Yet it is not true that the Episode 4 is the only game where the wounds match the epitaph.
Actually the only twilight with matching wounds is 頭 (head),　胸 (chest) and 腹 (stomach), which is no wonder that they are aims of for example a gun considering that those are deadly spots...it would explain to a large extent why there is always a mess-up between the order we saw people die as twilights and how they appeared in the listing.
For example in Episode 2's twilights involving Shannon, George and Gohda, Gohda was the second of them to become a twilight, even though he died first and George and Shannon were shown dying together. If the staker has no idea in what order people died, he just uses the wounds he finds on corpses around the island and sticks the stakes in the right places.

Don't forget that most of what we see of Kinzo is actually 'Goldsmith', Kinzo's magical ghost duplicate thing... I doubt much of anything he's ever said is representative of the real Kinzo, and everything else we hear about him is from his children, all of whom hate him.

Fact is we know very little real, concrete information about the guy, other than perhaps the history Genji gives us.

That is true. The only thing we know is that up till some point in 1985 there existed a man named Ushiromiya Kinzo on Rokkenjima, who is the father/grandfather of certain people on the island.
That exactly is the problem I see with Kinzo...so far we've only seen Goldsmith and Natsuhi's Kinzo, the closest we came to real Kinzo were to instances.
One was the memory of Eva, which may be tainted, but I see no reason for her to lie to herself about her father denying her her wishes.
The other is the conversation between a girl resembling the later designed portrait of a female (who is said to be Beatrice) and Kinzo in the garden of Kuwadorian.
Everything else is of course only second hand information.

For that matter, what the hell is Goldsmith, anyway? I'm not quite sure whether or not he's just an illusion or a being on the same level as, say, Ronove and Gaap.

That remains a really, really good question.
I still have this odd image in my mind of the culprit pulling a stuffed Kinzo corpse along...even though this is highly unlikely, the only thing that was said is, that everyone in the dining room in Episode 4 saw Kinzo, I think it was never actually put into words that it was Kinzo who was telling them about his plans.
So I think Goldsmith is another representation of the culprit, similar to Schoolgirl Beatrice and Eva-Beatrice...so to say he is 'Kinzo-Beatrice' in a way, partly because of what Eva-Beatrice was told about what made her the next Beatrice.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

Yet it is not true that the Episode 4 is the only game where the wounds match the epitaph.

I said that Ep4 is the only game where the wounds don't match the epitaph.

[Kaiba]

So how come Nanjo's son said he has seen 20 different vaults?

Don't rememebr well, but was it 20 vaults or 20 vaults with the green light on them? Because if it's the former, than I would argue that the room in and of itself is a secret depository for stuff in general, with the green light vaults being the one used by the Rokkenjima group or whatever.

[Jan-Poo]

A112 was one of those safes that were marked. ......By the way, there were several other safes marked with a green lamp besides that one. I think there were at least 20. There might even have been more in the other corner.

That would be pretty sad if the whole bank only had 20 in total XD

[chronotrig]

Okay, new interview from Ryuukishi. I'm not going to translate the whole thing here for various reasons, but a couple of interesting things popped up.

Not the least of which is the crushing of most of my gold text theory

Spoiler for Ryuukishi post-EP5 interview:

Spoiler for About EP6:

As the leader of the witch side, Battler will be forced to continue the serial murders. So he must carry out 13 murders using the game pieces. If he can create a crime that follows the rules of Beatrice's game board and is seen by Lambadelta and Bernkastel, they'll be able to confirm that he understands this world, and the game will be over.

Ryuukishi, jokingly, said that he might even end with EP6...but he also said that ending on either EP7 or EP9 would even be possible as well. In other words, "no comment"

Spoiler for What is solvable/has been solved:

It is possible to solve the "who dunnit", "why dunnit", and "how dunnit" for up to EP4 at least, but this is from Ryuukishi's perspective. Just because it would be possible for him doesn't mean that it will be possible for all the readers, coming from their own perspectives.

Some people have already solved about 98% of the epitaph. For the rest, you'd need to be on the actual island. However, if the people who have solved 98% went to Rokkenjima, they would be able to solve the rest in about an hour.

Several people have already guessed the true location of the gold.

In both EP6 and EP7, the full process of solving the epitaph's riddle will be revealed. You'll hear about it bit by bit from characters in the game.

In EP5, the game stopped shortly after Hideyoshi's corspe was discovered, but people who know the "answer" should be able to predict what happens next in the second twilight and beyond.

Spoiler for The Gold Text:

If you know the "answer", you should be able to understand what gold text is, what conditions it can be used in, and whether it's stronger than red text or not.

If someone knows the answer of the game, they can use the gold even if they aren't the Game Master.

Erika does not know the truth, but Lambdadelta can probably still use the gold.

Spoiler for Other stuff:

Beato managed to communicate everything she wanted to Battler at the end of EP4.

Episode 6 will probably focus more on 'story' than 'mystery'

And......

Spoiler for The dreaded "Land of the golden witch":

People also wonder whether content from "Land of the golden witch", which was removed from EP3, was included in EP5.

Ryuukishi: I definitely can't tell you that! It's true that the most vital part of "Land of the golden witch" is in there, but it's such a terrifying bit. Furthermore, it's something that neither Battler nor Erika nor Bernkastel has ever brought up in discussion. Maybe they didn't even realize that it was a riddle. Well, you'll probably find out soon. In EP6, a huge bit of red text info will appear regarding this point......according to the current plan.

How many players have noticed what this content is so far?

Ryuukishi: Zero. ...Well, I'd like to say that, but I can't. This content is extremely venomous. Very powerful.

Is this content deeply related to solving the crimes?

Ryuukishi: I think people who have found the "answer" probably won't have any problems. I wonder if they've realized it's a trick...... It's a very dirty trick.

To put it another way, is it possible to reach the truth of the crime if you haven't noticed this trick?

Ryuukishi: That's hard to say. If you don't see through the part from "Land of the golden witch", you definitely won't be able to reach several vital answers.
However, that content was never really necessary in the first place, so you can reach the truth of the crime with it or without it. Still, it's just so venomous that there's a chance you'll be totally confused. Depending on the situation, it's likely to cause a certain misunderstanding.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Okay, new interview from Ryuukishi. I'm not going to translate the whole thing here for various reasons, but a couple of interesting things popped up.

Not the least of which is the crushing of most of my gold text theory

Spoiler for Ryuukishi post-EP5 interview:

Spoiler for About EP6:

As the leader of the witch side, Battler will be forced to continue the serial murders. So he must carry out 13 murders using the game pieces. If he can create a crime that follows the rules of Beatrice's game board and is seen by Lambadelta and Bernkastel, they'll be able to confirm that he understands this world, and the game will be over.

Ryuukishi, jokingly, said that he might even end with EP6...but he also said that ending on either EP7 or EP9 would even be possible as well. In other words, "no comment"

Spoiler for What is solvable/has been solved:

It is possible to solve the "who dunnit", "why dunnit", and "how dunnit" for up to EP4 at least, but this is from Ryuukishi's perspective. Just because it would be possible for him doesn't mean that it will be possible for all the readers, coming from their own perspectives.

Some people have already solved about 98% of the epitaph. For the rest, you'd need to be on the actual island. However, if the people who have solved 98% went to Rokkenjima, they would be able to solve the rest in about an hour.

Several people have already guessed the true location of the gold.

In both EP6 and EP7, the full process of solving the epitaph's riddle will be revealed. You'll hear about it bit by bit from characters in the game.

In EP5, the game stopped shortly after Hideyoshi's corspe was discovered, but people who know the "answer" should be able to predict what happens next in the second twilight and beyond.

Spoiler for The Gold Text:

If you know the "answer", you should be able to understand what gold text is, what conditions it can be used in, and whether it's stronger than red text or not.

If someone knows the answer of the game, they can use the gold even if they aren't the Game Master.

Erika does not know the truth, but Lambdadelta can probably still use the gold.

Spoiler for Other stuff:

Beato managed to communicate everything she wanted to Battler at the end of EP4.

Episode 6 will probably focus more on 'story' than 'mystery'

And......

Spoiler for The dreaded "Land of the golden witch":

People also wonder whether content from "Land of the golden witch", which was removed from EP3, was included in EP5.

Ryuukishi: I definitely can't tell you that! It's true that the most vital part of "Land of the golden witch" is in there, but it's such a terrifying bit. Furthermore, it's something that neither Battler nor Erika nor Bernkastel has ever brought up in discussion. Maybe they didn't even realize that it was a riddle. Well, you'll probably find out soon. In EP6, a huge bit of red text info will appear regarding this point......according to the current plan.

How many players have noticed what this content is so far?

Ryuukishi: Zero. ...Well, I'd like to say that, but I can't. This content is extremely venomous. Very powerful.

Is this content deeply related to solving the crimes?

Ryuukishi: I think people who have found the "answer" probably won't have any problems. I wonder if they've realized it's a trick...... It's a very dirty trick.

To put it another way, is it possible to reach the truth of the crime if you haven't noticed this trick?

Ryuukishi: That's hard to say. If you don't see through the part from "Land of the golden witch", you definitely won't be able to reach several vital answers.
However, that content was never really necessary in the first place, so you can reach the truth of the crime with it or without it. Still, it's just so venomous that there's a chance you'll be totally confused. Depending on the situation, it's likely to cause a certain misunderstanding.

The "Answer"?

He might be bullshitting, he might not. I'm too tired to judge it for now.

I wonder if Battler will murder himself as part of the first twilight?

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

In EP5, the game stopped shortly after Hideyoshi's corspe was discovered, but people who know the "answer" should be able to predict what happens next in the second twilight and beyond.

We can predict the order of the serial murders with only 7 of the 13 victims known? So it's just a function where you pick 6 names and the remaining 7 are then given in order.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

If you know the "answer", you should be able to understand what gold text is, what conditions it can be used in, and whether it's stronger than red text or not. If someone knows the answer of the game, they can use the gold even if they aren't the Game Master.

Ah, thanks for destroying my gold truth theory completely.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

"Land of the golden witch"

Episode 6 title?

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Spoiler for The dreaded 'Land of the golden witch':

People also wonder whether content from "Land of the golden witch", which was removed from EP3, was included in EP5.

Ryuukishi: I definitely can't tell you that! It's true that the most vital part of "Land of the golden witch" is in there, but it's such a terrifying bit. Furthermore, it's something that neither Battler nor Erika nor Bernkastel has ever brought up in discussion. Maybe they didn't even realize that it was a riddle. Well, you'll probably find out soon. In EP6, a huge bit of red text info will appear regarding this point......according to the current plan.

How many players have noticed what this content is so far?

Ryuukishi: Zero. ...Well, I'd like to say that, but I can't. This content is extremely venomous. Very powerful.

Is this content deeply related to solving the crimes?

Ryuukishi: I think people who have found the "answer" probably won't have any problems. I wonder if they've realized it's a trick...... It's a very dirty trick.

To put it another way, is it possible to reach the truth of the crime if you haven't noticed this trick?

Ryuukishi: That's hard to say. If you don't see through the part from "Land of the golden witch", you definitely won't be able to reach several vital answers.
However, that content was never really necessary in the first place, so you can reach the truth of the crime with it or without it. Still, it's just so venomous that there's a chance you'll be totally confused. Depending on the situation, it's likely to cause a certain misunderstanding.

I'll have to think about 'Land of the golden witch'. I don't really have a clue right now.

[Renall]

What is this "Land of the Golden Witch" thing he was talking about? I'm not aware of what he's talking about.

I'm also not sure what you guys are saying about his gold text hint that makes it "destroy" your theories. I'm really not seeing anything here but his usual puffery. He talks a pretty good game, but I think he has way more confidence in people's ability to figure out things based on the information he's provided than he thinks he's revealed himself.

I understand where he's coming from; I ran a few D&D campaigns with some pretty over-complex plots. My players were really smart, but they just didn't notice things I thought they would because I was stringing together hints that were obvious to me but inconsequential to them.

To use Umineko as an example: Let's say I really wanted everybody to suspect Kumasawa, because the person I was really setting up as the villain was Hideyoshi and I wanted to surprise them. But what wound up happening instead was that people focused on, say, Krauss as the "obvious" suspect. They didn't do so for terrible reasons or anything, they just weren't seeing the dots I had laid out and then connecting them the way I would have thought to connect them if it had been me.

That sort of thing just happens. Although I do wonder just who it is who has solved 98% of the epitaph and who is close to the "answer."